(Answered) Probes and ECM Question

[FedComGirl]

I've been told, many times, that probes can only be used by aerospace craft when they're on the ground. Which is confusing since they can be used by VTOLs in the air.  However, Page 222 of Tactical Operations says that Airborne units can detect ground units using sensors and that the ranges don't change. Then it goes on to say that only works from a certain altitude or less and from a certain hex on a map.

Does that apply to probes as well as standard sensors? If not, why not?

Does the altitude of 9 or less also apply to VTOLs?

If sensors function at altitude 9 or less, why can't ECM?

[FedComGirl]

bumpity

[Welshman]

I've been told, many times, that probes can only be used by aerospace craft when they're on the ground. Which is confusing since they can be used by VTOLs in the air.  However, Page 222 of Tactical Operations says that Airborne units can detect ground units using sensors and that the ranges don't change. Then it goes on to say that only works from a certain altitude or less and from a certain hex on a map.

Does that apply to probes as well as standard sensors? If not, why not?

Pg. 222 are rules for Hidden Movement rules, not rules for Hidden Units. Hidden Movement means you can't see it because something is in the way (a wall, fog, haze, etc.). Hidden Units you can't see because they are specifically hidden from detection (shut down, under sensor nets, etc.)

Since ASF generally have LOS, they don't really need the sensor detection rules, however they are there for added game play. An Active Probe on an ASF is still not going to see a Hidden Unit or get any other benefits of an Active Probe.

Does the altitude of 9 or less also apply to VTOLs?

I'm fairly certain we capped VTOL altitude below that already, though I don't have that errata handy. However, yes, it does apply.

If sensors function at altitude 9 or less, why can't ECM?

ASF ECM functions perfectly fine below altitude 9. It just does not operate the same as ground ECM so it has no effect on ground units.

[FedComGirl]

Pg. 222 are rules for Hidden Movement rules, not rules for Hidden Units. Hidden Movement means you can't see it because something is in the way (a wall, fog, haze, etc.). Hidden Units you can't see because they are specifically hidden from detection (shut down, under sensor nets, etc.)

Since ASF generally have LOS, they don't really need the sensor detection rules, however they are there for added game play. An Active Probe on an ASF is still not going to see a Hidden Unit or get any other benefits of an Active Probe.

Um...probes are supposed to be able to detect shut down and camouflaged units, except infantry, at ranges greater than standard sensors. Do I don't understand why a probe on an aerospace unit wouldn't work. Their not being able to detect hidden units makes even less sense since Recon Cameras and Satellite Imagers can. So I'm still confused. Sorry.

I'm fairly certain we capped VTOL altitude below that already, though I don't have that errata handy. However, yes, it does apply.

Okay.

ASF ECM functions perfectly fine below altitude 9. It just does not operate the same as ground ECM so it has no effect on ground units.

Um... ??? I thought ECM Suites made a bubble of ECM noise. How is that different in the air? Is a LAM with a Guardian ECM Suite really going to be detectable to ground units while in fighter mode but not detectable in AirMech and BattleMech Modes?   ???   

[Welshman]

Um...probes are supposed to be able to detect shut down and camouflaged units, except infantry, at ranges greater than standard sensors. Do I don't understand why a probe on an aerospace unit wouldn't work. Their not being able to detect hidden units makes even less sense since Recon Cameras and Satellite Imagers can. So I'm still confused. Sorry.

Because an ASF moving at Mach whatever is going to fast to be able to resolve to the detail needed to see a unit. The standard rules only allow detecting a hidden unit at the end of the carrying unit's movement.

Um... ??? I thought ECM Suites made a bubble of ECM noise. How is that different in the air? Is a LAM with a Guardian ECM Suite really going to be detectable to ground units while in fighter mode but not detectable in AirMech and BattleMech Modes?   ???   

First and foremost, don't try and over logic this. Whatever in universe reason we come up with is just an attempt to provide in universe flavor. The reason is 100% a game mechanics decision. We decided to keep ASF and ground ECM separate for simplicity of rules and game balance. As an ASF Hex is at the smallest one mapsheet in size. A single ASF could blanket even the largest tabletop game all by itself.

As for LAMs, an excellent observation. I'm going to have to check the full LAM rules that are in development. We'll make sure they address this so it is clear. The most likely ruling will be you need to designate a LAM ECM as either an Aero or Ground ECM.

Thank you,
Joel BC

[FedComGirl]

Because an ASF moving at Mach whatever is going to fast to be able to resolve to the detail needed to see a unit. The standard rules only allow detecting a hidden unit at the end of the carrying unit's movement.

First and foremost, don't try and over logic this. Whatever in universe reason we come up with is just an attempt to provide in universe flavor. The reason is 100% a game mechanics decision. We decided to keep ASF and ground ECM separate for simplicity of rules and game balance. As an ASF Hex is at the smallest one mapsheet in size. A single ASF could blanket even the largest tabletop game all by itself.

Um...okay? ???

As for LAMs, an excellent observation. I'm going to have to check the full LAM rules that are in development. We'll make sure they address this so it is clear. The most likely ruling will be you need to designate a LAM ECM as either an Aero or Ground ECM.

Thank you,
Joel BC

Um...is that going to apply to weapons as well?

[Welshman]

It already applies to weapons. A LAM in AirMech mode uses Ground Hexes, in ASF mode it uses ASF hexes.

LAMs are a poor substitute for a dedicated BattleMech or dedicated ASF. Their value is in the ability to do more than one thing, passingly well.

[FedComGirl]

It already applies to weapons. A LAM in AirMech mode uses Ground Hexes, in ASF mode it uses ASF hexes.

LAMs are a poor substitute for a dedicated BattleMech or dedicated ASF. Their value is in the ability to do more than one thing, passingly well.

Are LB-X's limited to cluster weapons? Are all other ammo dependent weapons limited to standard rounds? Do I use the aero damages instead of the battlmech ones and/or rolling on the cluster hit chart? Up til now I'd of gone with as a Battlemech except for the ranges but now with ECM being either aero or ground are the weapons the same too?

[Welshman]

Hello,

The weapons are the same. ASF targeting systems work differently (mostly it's that they don't have to deal with ground clutter and while there is aerospace ECM, there is in general less electronic noise in space than there is on the ground.

Again, don't try and over think the in universe reasons. First and foremost this is a game mechanics thing. The universe fluff is just because in BattleTech we like to keep the fictional universe and the game rules tied together as much as possible.

[FedComGirl]

Hello,

The weapons are the same. ASF targeting systems work differently (mostly it's that they don't have to deal with ground clutter and while there is aerospace ECM, there is in general less electronic noise in space than there is on the ground.

That's good to know. But I don't understand their not having to deal with ground clutter. Wouldn't they have to during take offs, landings, and ground attacks? I would have thought they'd at least work on the ground so fighters can be hidden in places one wouldn't expect and then VTOL take off to surprise enemy units.

Again, don't try and over think the in universe reasons. First and foremost this is a game mechanics thing. The universe fluff is just because in BattleTech we like to keep the fictional universe and the game rules tied together as much as possible.

I understand that its a game mechanics thing but I'm not understanding how the game mechanics or balance are served by this. If standard sensors and even pre-spaceflight and early spaceflight equipment can detect ground units, shouldn't far more sophisticated probes? And now LAMs can't probes can't use probes in all modes hampering them even more? I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense and it goes completely away from the fictional universe. It also seems to go away from the Double-Blind Rules I mentioned as well as how they function on VTOLs. So I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. But I don't want to frustrate you any more either so I guess I'll just house rule something.

Thanks.

[Welshman]

You in part answer your own questions. The complexity of making these rules work is beyond the casual game play most players want to deal with, even when using advanced rules.

Sometimes we have to toss fiction to the wind when it comes to the game rules.

[FedComGirl]

You in part answer your own questions. The complexity of making these rules work is beyond the casual game play most players want to deal with, even when using advanced rules.

I did? Where?  ???   I suppose they could be advanced rules only but I'm not seeing how they'd be so complex that they wouldn't work. They work in Double Bind Games and those are more complex than standard ones.

Sometimes we have to toss fiction to the wind when it comes to the game rules.

I suppose that is true. But I would think there should be some way of including fiction even if only in a tiny limited way as an advanced optional. At least then the fiction would be satisfied and the basic game isn't bothered.


More Questions

Just what are fighters sensor ranges in Double Blind games? The rules say that ranges don't change but not what they are. I've been guessing the Combat Vehicle sensor ranges. Is that right?

On LAMs, since Probes - and I'm guessing ECM? - are fighter mode or other modes only, what sensors ranges does the LAM use in which mode during Double Blind Games?

Do sensor ranges change depending on mode for QuadVees too? Mech ranges in mech mode and vehicle ranges in vehicle mode?

Thanks

[Welshman]

You did. You're one of our advanced players. For you, the complexities of Double Blind are a mild bump in the road. For others, they won't even use Double Blind without an electronic aid. Something to realize is when you become as much of a rules aficionado as you are, is you can sometimes forget how these rules will be seen by the average player or worse, the new player.

Catalyst strives a fine line on rules, enough detail to satisfy our dedicated players and enough simplicity to not scare away the new guys. ECM is a tournament level rule, so we have to be very careful.

As to your questions

Yes

When LAM rules are published, we'll answer these.

QuadVee- Can you post a new question on this? That one will require some rules adjudication and possible errata.

[FedComGirl]

You did. You're one of our advanced players. For you, the complexities of Double Blind are a mild bump in the road. For others, they won't even use Double Blind without an electronic aid. Something to realize is when you become as much of a rules aficionado as you are, is you can sometimes forget how these rules will be seen by the average player or worse, the new player.

I must have missed it. Wow! Thank you. I wouldn't call it a mild bump though. I keep the books right near me to flip through easily. I do understand that the rules can be daunting for some players though, especially new ones.

Catalyst strives a fine line on rules, enough detail to satisfy our dedicated players and enough simplicity to not scare away the new guys. ECM is a tournament level rule, so we have to be very careful.

I understand that and don't want to muck up the standard rules. Too much.  ;) But a lot of things do have advanced options that are completely optional. That's where I could see them being put.

As to your questions

Yes

When LAM rules are published, we'll answer these.

QuadVee- Can you post a new question on this? That one will require some rules adjudication and possible errata.

Cool.

Okay. I hope its soon! :)

Sure.

Thank you.


Edit
Posted the question here as that's where the double blind rules are. http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,39530.0.html I hope that's okay.