Protomech possibilities and problems pre and post reavings

[Sjhernan3060]

As a big fan of the spirits and the hells horses I also dig Protomechs. After a recent buying spree to get more of the little guys here:
https://www.ariesgamesandminis.com/index.php/shopping/category/72-online-exclusive-protomechs.html
I have a variety of questions from a storyline/in universe perspective such as:
•   I seem to recall that Proto pilots burned out/died quickly esp early on when they first came out. Was this issue resolved or improved? If so when and how?
•   Protos were designed to fight against IS forces correct? ( Not sure) besides the Fall of Huntress is there another cannon example of Protos fighting against IS forces?
o   If so how did they do?
•   With the god complex/bonding to their machines do protos tend to stick to only one type of proto in their careers?
•   I know protos esp the 1st gen ones were too small to make effective physical attacks against mechs but what about against infantry, battle armor or vehicles?
o    Could a proto point ( at least in the fiction) attack a supply vehicle convey and start smashing and flipping vehicles? 
o   Could protos be used as effective bandits? For example rushing a base and scooping up armful of crates?
•   Could protos be turned into terror weapons for attacks against cities and populations?
o   Such as fast moving protos like the Satyr but armed with flamers
o   Are protos sturdy enough to smash through buildings and generally just run amok in cities?

[Maelwys]

•   I seem to recall that Proto pilots burned out/died quickly esp early on when they first came out. Was this issue resolved or improved? If so when and how?

Not particularly. They Aerospace phentoype is more resistant to the debilitating effects of the Enhanced Imagining implant than any of the other phenotypes, but they still eventually take damage over time.

•   Protos were designed to fight against IS forces correct? ( Not sure) besides the Fall of Huntress is there another cannon example of Protos fighting against IS forces?
o   If so how did they do?

I'm sure are examples, I just can't think of any off hand. WE know the Horses uses protoMechs, so its possible that some fought against the WoB during the end of the Jihad, but I'm not sure there's anything that says "Here's an example of them fighting, and here are how they did." The Raven Alliance uses ProtoMechs, so you're likely to see fighting against bandits and maybe the Great Houses there, but again, detailed examples of them in combat are few and far between.\

•   With the god complex/bonding to their machines do protos tend to stick to only one type of proto in their careers?

Probably depends on how bad off they are. There are probably pilots that are fine with changing, others that probably want to stick with what they know (similar to MWs sticking with certain Mechs over the years)

•   I know protos esp the 1st gen ones were too small to make effective physical attacks against mechs but what about against infantry, battle armor or vehicles?

ProtoMechs have always (I'm pretty sure, but don't feel like dragging out the original TRO3060 to check, but I'm pretty sure) had a frenzy attack that allows them to make the equivalent of a physical attack against enemy units.

o    Could a proto point ( at least in the fiction) attack a supply vehicle convey and start smashing and flipping vehicles? 

Wouldn't see why not. I mean, it might have to be a lightweight vehicle, but sure, why not?

o   Could protos be used as effective bandits? For example rushing a base and scooping up armful of crates?

Sure, they've all pretty much got hands, right? Some might have weapons in those hands, but for the most part, I think pretty much every ProtoMech has working hand actuators.

•   Could protos be turned into terror weapons for attacks against cities and populations?
o   Such as fast moving protos like the Satyr but armed with flamers
o   Are protos sturdy enough to smash through buildings and generally just run amok in cities?

Any unit could be turned to terror tactics. If you want them to target civilians, have them target civilians. They might be especially good at it since they can move inside buildings without damaging them too much, and because they're immune to themselves skidding, so feel free to run around alot on pavement. It costs a ProtoMech 2MP for each hex of building movement, and you only cause 1 point of damage per hex moved, so you can move around alot in buildings without causing too much damage.

[Vition2]

•   Protos were designed to fight against IS forces correct? ( Not sure) besides the Fall of Huntress is there another cannon example of Protos fighting against IS forces?
o   If so how did they do?

To add to what Maelwys said about this one, TRO 3145: Mercenaries Hippogriff entry has a couple of battles with the Ravens against Inner Sphere forces.  The end result is that they do well in their specialized roles, but fall far short when they step outside of those.  As far as I am aware, there are no other detailed engagements between protos and spheroid forces in the fiction.

[Sjhernan3060]

Has any one had experience using pure proto forces against iconic Mechs say like an Atlas, Grand Dragon?

[Kit deSummersville]

I tore apart a Hellstar with a point once. It was messy.

[RexCalices]

I actually have a question re: Raven Alliance and Protomechs.

It mentions in FM: 3085 I believe that the Alliance Military had Protomechs attached to them... but Protomechs can only be used by clanners, right? Does this mean that 1) The Ravens developed Protomechs anyone can use or 2) The Ravens are attaching their Protomech pilots to non-clan military formations?

[Vition2]

I actually have a question re: Raven Alliance and Protomechs.

It mentions in FM: 3085 I believe that the Alliance Military had Protomechs attached to them... but Protomechs can only be used by clanners, right? Does this mean that 1) The Ravens developed Protomechs anyone can use or 2) The Ravens are attaching their Protomech pilots to non-clan military formations?

Idea 2 is correct.  ProtoMechs are still required to be crewed by clanners, but the Raven Alliance is strange and their situation is also odd.  At this point in time the Ravens are still, at least somewhat, considered interlopers and unwanted intruders by the Alliance populace.  It is directly due to the Ravens that the WoB and DC took notice and fought against the Alliance, and the Raven numbers are small.  So the Ravens have to make themselves look good in whatever way they can, bolstering already existing formations by attaching a small number of clan units is a pretty easy option.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

While I agree that option 2 is more likely to be correct, I do think there's a significant probability it has to do with a 3rd option:

the real-world writer not keeping track empires that actually do have separate service branches, in this case Clan Snow Raven forces and AMC forces of the Raven Alliance.  Look at how many times you see Kurita ASFs and Spacecraft referred to as DCMS units.   Some Clan-only forces mentioned as being "part of" the AMC would hardly be the first such error.

[glitterboy2098]

well technically all you need to be a protopilot (aside from the training) is EI and a small enough size to fit the cockpit. i'm sure there would be enough people that could fit the size requirement (after all, the IS managed to find near-elementals the same way for early BA work), and the Ravens can implant the EI systems.

the main drawback there is that the aerospace phenotype has some minor resistance to the debilitating effects of EI, which a non-trueborn might not have. so freeborn protopilots drawn from the Outworlds population might not be able to have as long of careers. (and protopilot careers are fairly short already, even by clan standards)

[RexCalices]

Honestly the RA is a whole load of confusion. Like in FM 3085 it mentions how difficult it is for the AMC to get good mechs... but on the RAT it shows that as SL RA forces they would be using second tier clan stuff, including some quite good models. Despite this, in the fluff it states that "primitive does not begin to describe" the AMC and that the clan "can't provide mechs".

And then FM: 3145 has some of the Raven's own Galaxies listed as SL, same as the AMC, which suggests that clanners and spheroids would be using the same models. Which is neat... but not really how it seems to describe the isolationist Ravens operating in regards to their new domain - it never mentions anywhere I can see in the fluff the Ravens letting Spheroids have technological parity as far as mechs - it even mentions that mechs are even more valuable than in 3085.

[Gaiiten]

Remember, UltraProtomechs can be piloted by larger phenotypes (as to Mechwarrior and even Elemental phenotypes).

[glitterboy2098]

Remember, UltraProtomechs can be piloted by larger phenotypes (as to Mechwarrior and even Elemental phenotypes).

where does it say that though?

[haesslich]

where does it say that though?

TRO Prototypes, p. 90 - it's mentioned that the Svartalfa has a cockpit "50% larger than a standard protomech cockpit" that fits more body types.

[Jellico]

Honestly the RA is a whole load of confusion. Like in FM 3085 it mentions how difficult it is for the AMC to get good mechs... but on the RAT it shows that as SL RA forces they would be using second tier clan stuff, including some quite good models. Despite this, in the fluff it states that "primitive does not begin to describe" the AMC and that the clan "can't provide mechs".

And then FM: 3145 has some of the Raven's own Galaxies listed as SL, same as the AMC, which suggests that clanners and spheroids would be using the same models. Which is neat... but not really how it seems to describe the isolationist Ravens operating in regards to their new domain - it never mentions anywhere I can see in the fluff the Ravens letting Spheroids have technological parity as far as mechs - it even mentions that mechs are even more valuable than in 3085.

The tables are a blunt instrument trying to be used as a scalpel. In this case is it worth devoting valuable page real estate to the AMC?  Other recent examples include the Wolves in Exile and the Lyrans sharing a table.
Heck some of my favourite mismatches are in that 3050s review putting Clans like the Falcon's and Vipers or Bears and Wolves together.

Sadly real world issues limit the detail that can be put into tgses kinds of phone books so Mech selection is still something of an art.

[Sjhernan3060]

With ultra protos now a thing at what point will they stop getting heavier?

[Vition2]

At this point it is more along the lines of where do we make the cut-off between BattleMechs and ProtoMechs.  With the introduction of the interface cockpit to BattleMechs, they are very nearly the same thing now (just with different rules). 

[Gaiiten]

I do not think that there will be Protomechs with a higher tonnage than 15 tons.

However I would like to see Protomechs with more than four limbs.
Further some improvments of their movement and agility.

[glitterboy2098]

However I would like to see Protomechs with more than four limbs.
Further some improvments of their movement and agility.

given the whole "direct brain control" dynamic, i doubt we'll see 6 limb proto's. the human brain just isn't wired for easy control of more than our own set of 4. heck, look at the hoops the Society had to go through to make quad proto's work.. the society had to drug them into a near animalistic state, while the clans that picked the tech up have to train their pilots specifically to handle the quad design.

i suspect that we'll see more mobility upgrades though. the glider proto's ought to become a bit more common, i could see the "proto partial wing" being more widely adopted for as well.
the improved jump jet becoming more common suggests that proto's are due for something similar, and i could see some experimentation into adapting a system like the Battlearmor Mechanical Jump Booster to proto use to increase non jumping speeds. or a version of the BA Myomer booster to give MASC like capabilities.

TRO Prototypes, p. 90 - it's mentioned that the Svartalfa has a cockpit "50% larger than a standard protomech cockpit" that fits more body types.

that means it is a design specific feature, not one that is universal. it does however suggest that the IS clans could engineer the bigger cockpit option into any new proto design. (and that the use of aeropilots for the first ones may have been just a case of jaguars making use of an existing supply of washed out pilots, and then the rest of the clans copying them by rote.)

[marauder648]

Proto's can most definately be a terror weapon, they were designed to be physically scary and they are pretty darn big.



Going off that, in a city it would be like a scene from one of the bayformer movies to have a Proto chasing after you and they move like huge infantrymen, yeah that would be scary.

[Sjhernan3060]

Excellent point! Btw the triton is a great looking sculpt

[Gaiiten]

given the whole "direct brain control" dynamic, i doubt we'll see 6 limb proto's. the human brain just isn't wired for easy control of more than our own set of 4. heck, look at the hoops the Society had to go through to make quad proto's work.. the society had to drug them into a near animalistic state, while the clans that picked the tech up have to train their pilots specifically to handle the quad design.

I mean something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9V0oqZE_Ak

[Sjhernan3060]

Fluff wise would protos be hard to repair?

[glitterboy2098]

probably no more than a mech.. the main issue would be that proto's use a lot of specialized systems (their own armor and heat sink type for example, or their more exotic missile launcher sizes) that might be a bottleneck logistically.

[grimlock1]

well technically all you need to be a protopilot (aside from the training) is EI and a small enough size to fit the cockpit. i'm sure there would be enough people that could fit the size requirement (after all, the IS managed to find near-elementals the same way for early BA work), and the Ravens can implant the EI systems.

the main drawback there is that the aerospace phenotype has some minor resistance to the debilitating effects of EI, which a non-trueborn might not have. so freeborn protopilots drawn from the Outworlds population might not be able to have as long of careers. (and protopilot careers are fairly short already, even by clan standards)

IO has rules for Manei Domini proto pilots.  They need VDNI and have to be a quadruple amputee.  If I'm reading this right, the pilot can't even have removable prosthetic limbs, a la XCOM's MEC Troopers, who have remove their basic day-to-day prosthetics,  and get plugged into a 10 foot tall robot body,

As if the MD weren't icky enough...

(and that the use of aeropilots for the first ones may have been just a case of jaguars making use of an existing supply of washed out pilots, and then the rest of the clans copying them by rote.)

That was part of the fluff in TRO 3060. 

o   Are protos sturdy enough to smash through buildings and generally just run amok in cities?

Protos don't risk damaging themselves when moving through buildings, but the building does take a tiny bit of damage.