Lostech Mechs in 3025

[Rayneth]

So I was thinking of running an ATOW campaign around the start of the 4th millenia, either 3000 or 3025. I planned on allowing my players to utilize pieces of Lostech, perhaps a relatively well maintained Star League era mech that survived the worst of the succession wars.

My question is how viable is this for a Mercenary unit of roughly company strength? I'd imagine its not something they can just acquire as war bounty, since I imagine whoever hired them wants whatever they salvaged. Perhaps family owned mech passed down for generations, or maybe the old "Found it in a forgotten SLDF cache that had more than soup cans in it" shtick.

[PurpleDragon]

You could actually play out them finding the star league cache.  That way you have control over what they have available.  I think that would make it more fun, too.   I like to play it like not only are there rival groups interested, but that there is also a group (non-Comstar related) that tries to keep it from being discovered as well.  Kind of  like the magi in the movie The Mummy, or like the group in the Indiana Jones - Last Crusade movie.  I would have them do everything from misinformation to outright murder in their attempts to keep "the evil technology" from being discovered.  Then there could always still be the "still working automated defenses"...

[Atlas3060]

During the 3rd to 4rth Succession Wars, Star League anything was a valuable commodity.
One well maintained Mech would not be overpowering at my table, but it would be a fun focus for a lot of missions.

The possibilities are there, eccentric collectors wanting it, desperate House commanders trying to "company store" the unit to snag it, even the occasional shadow raid by Comstar to ascertain how powerful it is.

Kind of  like the magi in the movie The Mummy, or like the group in the Indiana Jones - Last Crusade movie.

The players could also go the Vault Hunter route from Borderlands. Sent on a damned fool's crusade for a potentially powerful League mcguffin, only to encounter crazy pirates and fellow mercs just trying to win a C-bill or thousand.  ;)

[guardiandashi]

So I was thinking of running an ATOW campaign around the start of the 4th millenia, either 3000 or 3025. I planned on allowing my players to utilize pieces of Lostech, perhaps a relatively well maintained Star League era mech that survived the worst of the succession wars.

My question is how viable is this for a Mercenary unit of roughly company strength? I'd imagine its not something they can just acquire as war bounty, since I imagine whoever hired them wants whatever they salvaged. Perhaps family owned mech passed down for generations, or maybe the old "Found it in a forgotten SLDF cache that had more than soup cans in it" shtick.

my post last night got eaten.

anyway depending on the tech in the star league mech it can be relatively easy to a severe pain to maintain and keep operational.

in ~3025 there is the potential for more "reverse engineering" but even in 3000 that is always a possibility.

a few examples off the top of my head.
ferrofibrous is ALWAYS a pain cause as soon as your supplys run out, you have to replace it with standard armor and loose the benefits.

endosteel provides the benefits as long as it doesn't get damaged.... but seriously good luck at finding more as it uses zero g manufacturing to make ... which is virtually non-existent except for jumpships and limited dropship manufacturing.

XL engine you are ok .... until you take crits that you don't have the proper spare shielding to repair.

DHS if mounted in the engine you are pretty much fine....if mounted outside the engine they are vulnerable... and essentially irreplaceable.

advanced missiles are a victim of tech decline... there really isn't a ready supply of the advanced microprocessors needed to make their guidance modules (until ~25-39ish when the Listen kills come out)

lbx (standard) ultra, and gauss munitions shouldn't be a huge deal you just would need to get a few samples to your munitions manufacturer to reverse engineer repairing the weapons themselves on the other hand....

I think that covers most of them except the pulse, and er weapons, and for them the biggest issue would be finding parts that might be compatible.

[hive_angel]

Star league tech in the SSW era is fine and adds the needed variety. I use it to minimal efforts such as one of my players pilots a star league Thug (DHS) which was a hidden family jem locked away. When the endo steel structure points are damaged they are gone for good along with the DHS. However the player has a contact when he wants to show who understand vaguley how to repair them, but it is a high roll indeed.

Vast amount of multiples of the same type start league tech might find the prying minds of a higher power so using random amounts might be better if you want to blend fluff your way. In fact using random star league tech instead of cherry picking to taste gives players the feeling of the finding star league tech in the SSW as a way of you get what you get kind of feeling.

[Don Lunardi]

Could also be that they find a small cache of Level 1 tech Mechs, that were mothballed as newer and more advanced models were introduced.  Not much of a find?  Depends.  After all this is 3025, where worn out jury rigged Mechs going into battle were more the norm rather than the exception.  Not to mention that production capacity for the Successor States is generally at its nadir at this time.

So someone unearths a stash of pristine fully functional Mechs?  That's going to make other parties take notice, advanced tech or not.

[croaker]

We had a similar find in our campaign a couple of years back - actually rolled "you find a star league cache" at chargen (MW 3rd Ed Lifepaths).

Ended up deciding on a Royal Marauder, which I'm sure everyone would recognize as a huge find. So we ended up stripping the visibly advanced toys off and selling them to the House Lord (Davion, o'course). All the engine-external DHS, the ER PPCs, and the Ferro-fib armor were stripped and sold, replaced with standard PPCs and armor... and updated the AC to a class-10. (Kept the CASE for it.) (ISTR we still had a few extra tons and there was talk of either an SRM rack, or jump jets....)

[Don Lunardi]

If the players did manage to acquire Lostech 'Mechs, you could also take a page out of EVE Online for general psychology: the more rare and expensive the unit, the more likely other people are going to take an interest in trying to Acquire or Eliminate it.  Found some Regular Army 'Mechs in pristine condition?  Expect to attract a fair share of heat for it.  Found a rare and nearly unheard of Royal variant?  Expect all hell to break lose as everyone and their Grandmother comes gunning for it. 

It can also be a useful way to keep a PC Party from becoming overly powerful, which LosTech in 3025 would have a tendency to do.  If they're silly enough to wave around their shiney toy for all to see, remind them why they can't have nice things GM style 8)

[Frabby]

May I refer you to the (freely available) BattleCorps short story, The Heart of Dixie? Two treasure hunters find a dilapidated SLDF cache. They retrieve a laser pistol as proof of their find, though the 'Mechs and really most stuff in the cache has degraded to junk. It's worthless. Still, the laser pistol simply showing up results in one of the treasure hunters being abducted and questioned to death, and a 'Mech battalion descending on the world in short order to salvage the suspected find.

Similarly, in the Lawyers, Guns, & Money scenario the find of a SLDF DropShip, with a treasure hunter providing (only) a security robot's head as proof, results in what could be described as civil war between two local mercenary units clobbering each other to death over the find.

Somewhere (possibly the Comstar sourcebook) there's a sidebar describing how an excavation by one House invited a powerful raid by its neighbouring house after being tipped off which utterly destroyed the site. The suspected content of the cache had been a whooping four BattleMechs of undetermined type.

What I'm trying to say here is that Lostech is a big thing - so big actually that it will be the undoing of smaller or weaker outfits or people who find it. If you aren't as well-connected and powerful as Gray Noton, Snord's Irregulars, the Bounty Hunter or Hassid Ricol, or a merc unit with at least say a battalion of 'Mechs, then a Lostech find will probably crush you.

[Don Lunardi]

What I'm trying to say here is that Lostech is a big thing - so big actually that it will be the undoing of smaller or weaker outfits or people who find it. If you aren't as well-connected and powerful as Gray Noton, Snord's Irregulars, the Bounty Hunter or Hassid Ricol, or a merc unit with at least say a battalion of 'Mechs, then a Lostech find will probably crush you.

Definitely this.  Just as with most cases, winning the lottery tends to result in life changing events that often leave the 'winners' worse off than before.  Story hooks and options abound here.

[freakacid]

doing something like this in my solaris campaign right now... one of my players has gotten a delivery of artemis munition...but now they are beeing spied on and hunted by a number of players...everyone is interested where they got it from. However, my players are looking for a mech, which is going to entangle them more and more into the power game ;)

Next session the weapons dealer will recieve a urgent message from his source of the lostech missiles... but I assume the jumpship the source is on will have a "misjump" shortly after that, leaving only a thin trail of evidence ...

[FedComGirl]

So I was thinking of running an ATOW campaign around the start of the 4th millenia, either 3000 or 3025. I planned on allowing my players to utilize pieces of Lostech, perhaps a relatively well maintained Star League era mech that survived the worst of the succession wars.

My question is how viable is this for a Mercenary unit of roughly company strength? I'd imagine its not something they can just acquire as war bounty, since I imagine whoever hired them wants whatever they salvaged. Perhaps family owned mech passed down for generations, or maybe the old "Found it in a forgotten SLDF cache that had more than soup cans in it" shtick.

Yes it's viable. The questions are how lostech is the cache? How big a is it? How good is your company? On what terms are they with their employer? And lastly was finding the cache their mission or a bonus?

Going from the last first, if your mission is to find the cache your company might be lucky to get a part of it. If it's a bonus then it becomes a question of on what terms are you with your employer? They're going to get a cut but if you're on good terms they'll be nice about it you'll get to keep more. If you're on bad terms you'll get a lot less. How good your company will determine if you can fight off anyone else looking for it or your former employer if you're on bad terms. The bigger the find the more people are going to be interested. Even more so when it contains lostech. Unless you hide it and don't use it the way Snord's Irregulars did, everyone will be after it.  And they still managed to use quite a lot from the dropship they found. So yes, it is viable. The final question though is how rough to you want to be on your company?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  The problem with inserting Lostech into a 3025 campaign is that most people of the time have no idea what Lostech really is -The Star League is a mythical, almost magical era and barely a memory to most, while the products of that time are also the stuff of myth and legend.

  The reason why most of the 3025 era's 'Mech designs that date from the Star League are downtech is because nobody manufactures the components to maintain those original designs and almost nobody has an idea how to maintain Star League technology, so obtaining a pristine, SL 'Mech would be like a WW2 RAF unit getting their hands on a F-14 jet. Everything would be fine until you realize that for every hour of operation, the F-14 requires about four hours of maintenance by a trained crew.

  The second, more serious complication would be ROM -the totally unknown organization that hunted down, destroyed and killed their way across the universe trying to keep Lostech out of non-Comstar hands. Finding a Star League cache would be very big news and ROM would soon be on the scene, to determine if they need to take immediate, covert action.

  The one canon exception in 3025 would be the Arkab Legions, which, according to SB: Draconis Combine, were revealed to be fielding pristine, Star League era Battlemechs while fighting the Clans. No numbers were given, just a few lines pointing that out, as well as pointing out that the Combine and the Azami were separate realms, politically and were allies.  It was my GM who pointed that out and suggested I play an Azami character in his campaign. He started out with a Mongoose, which is not an Earth-shattering 'Mech in combat but the Beagle Active Probe often proved very useful, especially in double-blind situations. It wasn't the Mongoose that proved to be valuable, but the character's servant and mechtech, who had trained all of his life to work on, maintain and repair Star League equipment.

  In a practical sense, nobody could tell a Star League Lostech 'Mech from a downtech 'Mech from 3025 by just looking at them. Somebody would have to be paying very careful attention or have equipment to measure performance to tell the difference.

[FedComGirl]

  In a practical sense, nobody could tell a Star League Lostech 'Mech from a downtech 'Mech from 3025 by just looking at them. Somebody would have to be paying very careful attention or have equipment to measure performance to tell the difference.

Except of course for the units known to be very rare or extinct. Those units would stand out more.

[idea weenie]

Lostech that is used up is not as big a concern as Lostech that keeps on giving.

For example, finding a Star League LB-X autocannon without ammo means you have to use regular AC ammo instead.  You get none of the LB-X advantages, and only the added expense of Lostech parts.  If you find LB-X ammo that will help a lot.  This could be something a PC could start with, with their noble family back home making spare LB-X ammo for them.  Ferro fibrous armor would be something useful too, as it would be damaged in every combat and need replacement (with the noble lands producing new armor at a slow rate).  You could have it where the Mech needs to use the FF armor to get a couple more tons of ammo on board.

Star League Energy weapons would be rarer but still useful, though an unlucky hit in combat means the energy weapon is damaged or destroyed.  This allows potentially infinite uses, but can still be damaged or destroyed, and is only one weapon.

Star League Targeting computers would be a very nice find, as you can tie almost any direct fire weapon into them.  This would be a more powerful artifact than a Star League Weapon, as it can use any direct fire weapon.

Double Heat Sinks (and an engine that uses them) would be the best find, since extra cooling can be used by anything (except TSM).

[Daryk]

You'd still get the LB-X advantage of lower weight and less heat (at least for an LB-10X), both of which are worth it in my opinion.

[monbvol]

Except standard AC ammo is explicitly incompatible with LB-X versions(even as standard standing in for slug) and the Star League didn't have Targeting Computers in the sense of pay X amount of tons and critical slots for Y direct fire weaponry for a to hit bonus or the ability to call your shots.  That is a Clan invention that was later duplicated to lesser efficiency by the Federated Suns.  What they did have are mostly what you find in the design quirk section of Strategic Operations and that can still provide some very nice benefits to be sure.

As to how common Lostech was my reading on the matter was that there was just enough floating around that particularly prominent individuals did still have functioning examples on their mechs and Comstar really wasn't so much worried about that, but more that someone might start trying to re-produce it.

[Liam's Ghost]

Realistically, I expect any lostech in the hands of major powers would be rare enough that it would be deemed too valuable to actually use in combat, and would spend its time in research facilities instead of the battlefield, especially in 3025. Even the Arkab Legion's pristine star league mechs were probably kept that way by being kept in storage most of the time, only to be brought out when truly necessary.

I think the biggest thing a small unit with any notable amount of lostech is going to have to contend with is actually generous offers to buy it from them.

[Xotl]

The Arkab was said to have the machines, which stretches belief enough but can't be denied; there's no mention that they had the tech that went with them still (which is good, because an entire regiment--and not even the premier regiment of the House--stuffed full of SL tech in an era where an SL toaster oven would cause an invasion is fundamentally silly.  The idea that someone didn't notice this for 100/150 years after the disappearance of most of said tech until the Clan Invasion is outright ridiculous).

A lot of the narrative power of the era comes from the idea that the tech is gone.  Scattering it about is thus the obvious temptation, but then it becomes undervalued.

[Frabby]

Just to throw this in here, but canonically, in 3066 one of the Chaos Irregulars founding members (Reema Chowla, formerly of the Sorensen's Strikers mercenary unit) is operating a Mongoose which is a family heirloom that served in the mercenary trade for generations since the Star League era. Complete with BAP.
(Though this is indeed considered special.)

And the Combat Manual: Mercenaries (beta) is giving out LosTech and whole SL-spec assault 'Mech companies to 3025 mercs like candy bars, to the point where one might consider it a retcon. Personally I hope they tone that tech creep down to... levels more in line with my view of the pre-Clan universe.

[skiltao]

there's no mention that they had the tech that went with them still

FM:DC says that the 2nd Arkab Legion "carefully guarded and maintained" its original Star League-era 'Mechs, even after the rest of the Inner Sphere forgot how to repair such equipment, and that the Jaguars found that equipment "more challenging" than what they faced from Kurita's other regiments.

That's as close as you can get to saying "yes they had Beagles and ER Lasers" without actually saying "yes they had Beagles and ER Lasers," which would be silly to say outright... However, the 'Mechs actually given as examples (Mercury and Hussar) aren't exactly stuffed with SL tech to begin with (notably no endo steel or XL engines), and could well have been accompanied by Star League vintage LCT-1Vs, ASN-21s, and so on.

in an era where an SL toaster oven would cause an invasion <snip> The idea that someone didn't notice this for 100/150 years after the disappearance of most of said tech until the Clan Invasion is outright ridiculous

Even nominally understood technologies, like the Spider, have prompted invasion.

And who says nobody noticed? There's lots of lostech walking around in known quantities: Ostscouts with their mapping sensors, Phoenix Hawks have the Tek Tru Trak, one of the Lyran fighters has an advanced cooling system, there was even an LAM refitted with advanced armor. While the Inner Sphere exists in a state of decay, there will--by definition--always be technology in use whose construction, maintenance and repair isn't understood by its users.

A lot of the narrative power of the era comes from the idea that the tech is gone.  Scattering it about is thus the obvious temptation, but then it becomes undervalued.

I generally agree, but with the following caveats:

• stuff like what's on the Ostscout et al can be widely known, widely distributed and relatively sustainable provided that you only have a % chance for any given 'Mech to actually have it, and replacement parts can only be gotten from other Ostscouts (or other unit as appropriate);
• stuff that's basically wacky variations on known equipment (LB-10, ultra/5, ER Lasers) would definitely get more attention from other regiments, but not necessarily from House R&D or ROM; and maintenance would be difficult enough that the equipment might deteriorate into standard equipment over time (also, it's relatively well balanced for an environment without Double Heatsinks);
• game changing stuff (XL engines, double heatsinks, gauss rifles), or the knowledge of how to manufacture anything, make you the immediate target of both ROM and at least one multi-regimental House force.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

However, the 'Mechs actually given as examples (Mercury and Hussar) aren't exactly stuffed with SL tech to begin with (notably no endo steel or XL engines), and could well have been accompanied by Star League vintage LCT-1Vs, ASN-21s, and so on.

  I somehow find it difficult to believe that Clan Smoke Jaguar would find any equipment with trace amounts of SL tech "more challenging" or even worth noting...unless they were units there truly worth noting and actually made a significant difference on the battlefield.

  From 3025 on, I have serious doubts that anybody on the battlefield could tell if a particular 'Mech was available exclusively to the Star League or not. It would most likely be considered "Unidentified" and unless it stood out in performance, would be ignored as a fluke or modified design. The Star League and its works were ancient, centuries past and virtually mythical.

  As far as the Arkab legions and their SL 'Mechs are concerned, the Azami are a closed society, separate from their Combine allies. If one of the other factions knew the Arkab had SL tech it would be no different than wanting to take Clan tech away from the Clans: You'd have to shoot them out of their 'Mechs first.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Just because the mechs are Star League era doesn't mean they come with the lostech still. Salome Kell's WVR was supposed to be carefully maintained from the Star League era yet as far as I know it's just a bog standard WVR.

[Don Lunardi]

Just because the mechs are Star League era doesn't mean they come with the lostech still. Salome Kell's WVR was supposed to be carefully maintained from the Star League era yet as far as I know it's just a bog standard WVR.

Probably this.  After all, anyone running around with 50% advanced tech designs during the nadir of the Succession Wars is just asking to get stomped by someone hungry for either grabbing said tech for themselves, or denying it to their enemy.

[skiltao]

Lots of bog standard 'Mech variants--like maybe that WVR--are Star League era variants. It's known that the Star League built it's machines and components to higher standards than the Great Houses did in 3050. In the Third Succession War, it was widely believed that a medium laser dating to the Star League was superior to ones of more recent vintage; whether this is true, in what ways and to what extent, are all up in the air.

We at least know that maintenance and repair aren't perfect even by 3050, even in front-line units, and that alone should give a formation of perfectly preserved Star League 'Mechs a measurable edge.

Like I was saying, some of these bog standard 'Mech variants do have lostech. Although it's difficult to represent meaningfully on the gameboard, things like the WVR's "Tek BattleCom" (which is harder to jam) do make a signficant difference on the battlefield; many, maybe most, of TR:2750's 'Mechs have some kind of advanced electronics whose impact isn't represented well by the game.

Further, Star League designs--even those built with Introductory-level tech--tend to have higher armor fractions, or be a little faster, and usually rely more on energy weapons. All of which encourages longer, drawn-out fights, and plays to the Arkab's strength as a light hit-and-run force.

It's entirely likely that the Great Houses are accostumed to seeing the occasional ancient and unidentified 'Mech, and give them no special attention; however, certain pieces of technology--XL engines and DHS, for instance--have such a striking effect on the 'Mech's performance that even unknown designs tend to get flagged after their first battle (see the discussion of heat, speed and firepower tradeoffs from Phelan and Focht in the first Blood of Kerensky novel). It's unlikely that the Azami fielded any such technology prior to the Clan invasion; hiding it away from prying eyes is a possibility, but not necessary for the narrative to work.

[mikecj]

Look at all the fighting between the ELH and the Dragoons over the super wasp and super griffin circa 3026

[Liam's Ghost]

Design quirks.

A locust is just a locust. A locust with the improved sensors quirk is a rude surprise to a tricksy opponent who figured they could ambush you.

They are my go-to for making a mech better than intro tech without actually stepping outside intro tech, and seem like a good way to simulate Star League quality without having to redesign anything. Just allocate a couple/few extra points to positive design quirks.