Author Topic: The Chesterton Worlds  (Read 4342 times)

Arkansas Warrior

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The Chesterton Worlds
« on: 24 April 2017, 11:14:55 »
They're an age-old bone of contention between the Federated Suns and Capellan Confederation.  I think anyone who's been around BT long knows that.  Beginning withan early state known variously as the Chesterton Trade League, Chesterton Trade Federation, or Chesterton Trade Worlds, they were absorbed into the Tikonov Union, though many were later lost to the nascent Federated Suns, including Chesterton itself.  While Chesterton eventually became part of the Valexa PDZ, the Confederation maintained a phantom "Chesterton Commonality" on the books for centuries.  But, here's my question:  Aside from Chesterton itself, what other worlds as "Chesterton Worlds"?  I've never seen a map of the Chesterton Trade League/Federation/Worlds.  I've never seen a map of the Chesterton Commonality.  Are those out there somewhere?  Failing that, is there a list somewhere?  It would be nice to have a complete accounting of exactly which worlds we're arguing over, after all.
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Jaim Magnus

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #1 on: 24 April 2017, 11:57:11 »
As of 3145, the Chesterton Commonality actually exists. Information on this is in both FM and ER 3145. The Confederation map in FM 3145 shows Mira, Messartim, Almach, Demeter, Halloran V, New Aragon, Algot, and of course Chesterton as part of the new Commonality. I imagine most of these worlds are the historic 'Chesterton Worlds', but the old house books or handbooks may have more information.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #2 on: 24 April 2017, 12:48:24 »
True, though I think in that case it was more the expedient of "worlds we captured on the way to Chesterton" than necessarily being of historical significance.  Now, it's likely a lot of them were old "Chesterton Worlds", given their proximity, but we're just guessing.  It's also true that none of them were Capellan territory pre-Blackout.  They're all recent captures, mostly taken in the drive on Chesterton.  It's a start, but I'd like something more definitive.
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Jaim Magnus

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #3 on: 24 April 2017, 13:00:04 »
Okay. Handbook House Liao, doesn't actually list specific worlds, just labels the FedSuns territory near Chesterton as 'Chesterton Commonality.'

Handbook House Davion, however, mentions Chesterton, Beten Kaitos, Emerson (p. 19), and Bell (p. 22).
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nckestrel

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #4 on: 24 April 2017, 13:01:19 »
House Davion p23-24 has Emerson and Beten Kaitos chosing to join Chesterton rather than the Fed Suns.

p26 "Which gave the Suns formal control over the Chesterton worlds of Mira, Mesartim, and Almach."

House Liao p10, Chesteron and Demeter were the original two worlds that formed the Chesterton Trade League.

FR 2765 Capellan lumps Sonnia in with Chesterton and Demeter as worlds Liao refuses to drop claims to.
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Meow Liao

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #5 on: 24 April 2017, 20:35:19 »
The Atlas section of the old House Liao book has descriptions of all 9 worlds.  Chesterton, Algol, Almach, Demeter, Halloran V, Mesartim, Mira, New Aragon, Sonnia. 

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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #6 on: 24 April 2017, 21:30:49 »
Algol, or Algot?  The latter seems to make more sense geographically, since Buchlau and Kansu, early possessions of the Tikonov Union, are in between Algol and the rest of the Chesterton worlds otherwise.
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nckestrel

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #7 on: 24 April 2017, 21:33:38 »
The Atlas section of the old House Liao book has descriptions of all 9 worlds.  Chesterton, Algol, Almach, Demeter, Halloran V, Mesartim, Mira, New Aragon, Sonnia. 

Meow Liao

And all of them are under the "Chesteron Commonality" section.  Thanks.
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SCC

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #8 on: 29 April 2017, 02:31:23 »
Personally I think the Chesterton worlds are going to be something of a problem for the CC (And I've said this before). The CC has long claimed that the people living on them are Capellan Citizens, which has a very different meaning to other nations, so either the people living there are going to be made Citizens without having to perform the customary service, which is going to upset people elsewhere, or their not going to get it, which is likely to upset people living there more then is normal for being conquered.

Iracundus

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #9 on: 29 April 2017, 06:21:39 »
I think the CC has long claimed the worlds are traditional Capellan worlds...not specifically that the people there currently are Capellan citizens, in the Capellan sense of the term.  An analogy might be how people born under the FedCom on former CC worlds were treated as Capellans needing cultural education in "proper" Capellan ways but seemed to receive no special treatment in terms of citizenship.   

People on one Capellan world retaken from the WoB during the Jihad were offered citizenship if they could prove active resistance against the WoB (and previous Capellan citizens had their status re-instated if they could prove it with paperwork).  This seems to be the Capellan standard operating procedure.  So if they do this with the Chesterton worlds, the people did not become citizens immediately and would have had to work through the normal process just like any other Capellan, though any that could show they actively resisted the FS or assisted the CCAF during the retaking could win their citizenship immediately.

Orwell84

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #10 on: 29 April 2017, 16:51:26 »
I think the CC has long claimed the worlds are traditional Capellan worlds...not specifically that the people there currently are Capellan citizens, in the Capellan sense of the term.  An analogy might be how people born under the FedCom on former CC worlds were treated as Capellans needing cultural education in "proper" Capellan ways but seemed to receive no special treatment in terms of citizenship.   

People on one Capellan world retaken from the WoB during the Jihad were offered citizenship if they could prove active resistance against the WoB (and previous Capellan citizens had their status re-instated if they could prove it with paperwork).  This seems to be the Capellan standard operating procedure.  So if they do this with the Chesterton worlds, the people did not become citizens immediately and would have had to work through the normal process just like any other Capellan, though any that could show they actively resisted the FS or assisted the CCAF during the retaking could win their citizenship immediately.

After 7-8 centuries that's a long resistance movement, probably the longest in the Guiness Book ;D

As to the 'normal process'... being turned into life-long members of the slave caste overnight isn't likely to win many inhabitants over to the Divine Liao. Unless they're planning on rotating native inhabitants out and Capellan-born settlers in, Assyrian-style.
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Iracundus

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #11 on: 29 April 2017, 17:10:27 »
There have been threads before about the to what extent the Capellan system is imposed on conquered populations.  There could be a difference between how it is theoretically and ideologically supposed to work and what is really implemented in reality. 

The official policy seems to be (as per page 114 of Handbook House Liao):

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Populations of worlds conquered by the Confederation military are immediately entered into the ranks of the servitor caste, making them second-class citizens.  Though this practice sometimes costs the Confederation the productivity of skilled specialists and technicians, it is important for each world to learn its place in the Capellan realm.  A planet whose inhabitants actively resisted the Confederation only days before can hardly expect to become an honoured member of it overnight, not when every Capellan citizen - whether from the backwater villages of Ward or the cultured cities of Sian - has already sacrificed to earn his or her place in the nation.  Caste assignment is generally accomplished within a few years, and the conquered populations can then be allowed to qualify for Capellan citizenship.  The only exceptions to this rule are children born on a planet after its conquest, who are accorded the same state protection as any Capellan child. 

Yet the reality may be much more flexible.  For example, on page 74 of Handbook House Liao

Quote
(about Prefect of the Liao Commonality)...His most pressing need is to integrate the former FedCom subjects of the Liao worlds into the Confederation proper, a task made most difficult by the differences between the Capellan caste system and the less regimented societies of the Federated COmmonwealth.  In particular, he has spent vast amounts of wealth and political capital trying to maintain a higher standard of living for the servitors in his commonality, many of whom resent the often-minimal living conditions afforded them. 

The Liao Commonality was created in 3061, and only a mere 3 years before, its worlds were not part of the Confederation.  This means that there had already been imposition of the caste system since it is hard to believe all the servitors could have been imported from elsewhere in the Confederation, given the general Jumpship shortage in the Inner Sphere. 

Although the letter of the law might afford servitors only minimal income and living conditions, the Prefect above was clearly bending the rules or going beyond them in order to reduce unrest.  There is no evidence that the Prefect was punished for it, so it could be the rest of the Confederation government acknowledges this issue of practicality and looks the other way.  In past threads, it has also been proposed that the demotion to servitor caste may be more superficial window dressing, with new identification papers, but otherwise minimal disruption to the existing standard of living. 

So we canonically have evidence the Confederation does impose its caste system upon recently taken worlds, and yet there is not widespread global rebellion for the most part by the civilian population.  How do we account for this?  While there may be some element of the sheeple effect, I think it is made more tolerable by being spread out over time.  In other words, instead of being made to work without pay for several months in one go, perhaps 1 day out of every month is unpaid for the next 5 years.  This conveniently takes it to the end of the 5 year period before applying for citizenship.  While it may be tempting to stereotype the Confederation as black hats, the fact they survive means they are not entirely without popular support, which means there is more than just the stick.  I would imagine there would be a system of carrot and stick, with more cooperation with the occupying CCAF perhaps resulting in a shorter time to citizenship.  For the lower class, cooperation may mean an opportunity to jump up the socioeconomic ladder, while for the old upper class, cooperation would be a means to retain what they already have. 
« Last Edit: 29 April 2017, 17:12:50 by Iracundus »

Archangel

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #12 on: 30 April 2017, 22:54:28 »
So we canonically have evidence the Confederation does impose its caste system upon recently taken worlds, and yet there is not widespread global rebellion for the most part by the civilian population.  How do we account for this?  While there may be some element of the sheeple effect, I think it is made more tolerable by being spread out over time.  In other words, instead of being made to work without pay for several months in one go, perhaps 1 day out of every month is unpaid for the next 5 years.  This conveniently takes it to the end of the 5 year period before applying for citizenship.  While it may be tempting to stereotype the Confederation as black hats, the fact they survive means they are not entirely without popular support, which means there is more than just the stick.  I would imagine there would be a system of carrot and stick, with more cooperation with the occupying CCAF perhaps resulting in a shorter time to citizenship.  For the lower class, cooperation may mean an opportunity to jump up the socioeconomic ladder, while for the old upper class, cooperation would be a means to retain what they already have.

A lot of the worlds were former Capellan worlds that had large portions of the planetary population desiring to return to the Capellan Confederation which greatly helped their re-integration (It helps even more when there is active resistance against 'occupiers' whether through terrorist activities or civil disobedience).  Worlds that had never been part of the Capellan Confederation, such as Chesterton, are far less willing to fall into line.
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ajcbm

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #13 on: 01 May 2017, 22:05:13 »
A lot of the worlds were former Capellan worlds that had large portions of the planetary population desiring to return to the Capellan Confederation which greatly helped their re-integration (It helps even more when there is active resistance against 'occupiers' whether through terrorist activities or civil disobedience).  Worlds that had never been part of the Capellan Confederation, such as Chesterton, are far less willing to fall into line.

fyi... Chesterton and surrounding planets did have a various resistance movements against Davion rule. The Third Tikonov Guards were formed from them.
 

Archangel

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #14 on: 02 May 2017, 00:25:55 »
fyi... Chesterton and surrounding planets did have a various resistance movements against Davion rule. The Third Tikonov Guards were formed from them.

fyi The Third Tikonov Guards was formed from resistance groups that fought against Davion annexation of former RotS worlds.  Chesterton was never part of the RotS.  Having a planet name in its title doesn't automatically mean that the unit originates from that planet.  The Draconis Combine created the Dieron Regulars centuries before Dieron ever became part of the Draconis Combine.  That said it wouldn't have been the first time the Capellan Confederation sponsored resistance/terrorist groups abroad.
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ajcbm

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #15 on: 02 May 2017, 10:17:43 »
fyi The Third Tikonov Guards was formed from resistance groups that fought against Davion annexation of former RotS worlds.  Chesterton was never part of the RotS.  Having a planet name in its title doesn't automatically mean that the unit originates from that planet.  The Draconis Combine created the Dieron Regulars centuries before Dieron ever became part of the Draconis Combine.  That said it wouldn't have been the first time the Capellan Confederation sponsored resistance/terrorist groups abroad.

So where did the Kansu Braves, Bharatiya Ganpats, Chesterton Long Rifles, and Hamal Cossacks come from if not from Kansu, Bharatiya, CHesterton and Hamal? Giving money and weapons to them doesn't make them any less from these planets.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #16 on: 02 May 2017, 12:23:09 »
There's always some ne'er-do-wells who want to fight the Man.  Let the Capellans fill their ranks with the dregs of FedSuns society.  Why, they can probably raise several whole infantry regiments by liberating psychopathic murderers locked up in prisons throughout the Capellan March.
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sillybrit

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #17 on: 02 May 2017, 17:43:41 »
There's always some ne'er-do-wells who want to fight the Man.  Let the Capellans fill their ranks with the dregs of FedSuns society.  Why, they can probably raise several whole infantry regiments by liberating psychopathic murderers locked up in prisons throughout the Capellan March.

Exactly. Even if the Chesterton Long Rifles had 10000 personnel from Chesterton (enough to staff an entire RCT-sized formation, and then some, nevermind the mere two  battalions the CLS possess), when compared to the ~2.6 billion population of Chesterton it's just a rounding error.

A pertinent quote from Handbook House Liao (p29):
"Even by 2808, Chesterton was a thoroughly Davion world — the oft-touted resistance movements there were no more numerous than fringe elements on any other world."

JadedFalcon

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #18 on: 02 May 2017, 18:51:41 »
There's always some ne'er-do-wells who want to fight the Man.  Let the Capellans fill their ranks with the dregs of FedSuns society.  Why, they can probably raise several whole infantry regiments by liberating psychopathic murderers locked up in prisons throughout the Capellan March.

Historically, resistance groups have always attracted a number of sadists and criminals. So yes, there is some of your most motivated and fervent converts. Impressionable youth will also make up a large portion of the volunteers, along with those who perceive themselves as being oppressed or maligned by the establishment (whether or not they actually are). Groups and individuals that stand to benefit from a change in power will also promote the new regime for monetary and political profit. It wouldn't be a stretch to see something like Capellan promises of state-sponsored education get traction with neglected FedSuns worlds and communities. Perceptions can make a considerable difference, if on one side the grass is seen as green and on the other, yellow.

FM:3145 also shows the Chesterton Long Rifles as being only two battalions, so it isn't like the grass looks that green.

ajcbm

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #19 on: 04 May 2017, 04:59:41 »
There's always some ne'er-do-wells who want to fight the Man.  Let the Capellans fill their ranks with the dregs of FedSuns society.  Why, they can probably raise several whole infantry regiments by liberating psychopathic murderers locked up in prisons throughout the Capellan March.

Good thing the Federated Suns is 90% dregs then.

SCC

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #20 on: 05 May 2017, 04:30:27 »
Good thing the Federated Suns is 90% dregs then.
I'm pretty sure that that's above average for the BTU.

Archangel

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #21 on: 05 May 2017, 13:37:28 »
Another consideration is that the Chesterton in Chesterton Long Rifles could refer to the Chesterton Commonality as a whole rather than simply the planet Chesterton recruiting from all planets within the CC's old borders just like the Galedon Regulars took in recruits from the entire Galedon District rather than simply the planet Galedon.
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Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #22 on: 08 May 2017, 00:50:29 »
Personally I think the Chesterton worlds are going to be something of a problem for the CC (And I've said this before). The CC has long claimed that the people living on them are Capellan Citizens, which has a very different meaning to other nations, so either the people living there are going to be made Citizens without having to perform the customary service, which is going to upset people elsewhere, or their not going to get it, which is likely to upset people living there more then is normal for being conquered.

As Iracundus rightly points out, the Capellan view is that the worlds themselves, in the geographic sense, belong to the Capellan people. The people who currently live on the worlds - and whose ancestors have lived on the worlds as loyal members of the Federated Suns for longer than the Capellan Confederation has even existed - are squatters. As such it is ideologically unproblematic if those people reject Capellan rule. The Capellan political philosophy here doesn't care about the will of the people, so they don't need any popular support to claim legitimacy. After all, they've been claiming legitimacy for eight hundred years or so without one whit of meaningful popular support.

The problem for them is purely military. How do they pacify Chesterton? The options, as you say, are either give out citizenship en masse and hope that this achieves something (I think it is unlikely to, but they could try it), at the risk of discontent elsewhere in the Confederation, or to establish a military government by force. That seems likely to stir up immense discontent, but the Confederation might theoretically be able to do that.

Realistically, I don't think either course is particularly important in the short term. Both potential courses of action assume that the Confederation will be able to hold Chesterton for the immediate future, and based on all previous history, I don't see that happening. Chesterton is too deep into the Federated Suns and too core a world to be lost over the long term. We've seen similarly deep pushes in the Succession Wars before and I'm not convinced this is tenable. The current 3145 setting is a cliffhanger: none of the current battle lines are stable borders.

With both the Federated Suns and the Republic gearing up for large-scale counter-attacks, if I was a Confederation planner at the moment, I would be more worried about holding Chesterton than I would be about integrating it. To be honest, I would advising the Chancellor that we almost certainly can't hold it, and that it would be better to use this opportunity to focus on consolidating more defensible gains. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there is immense political pressure to hold Chesterton for its symbolic value...

Though if I were a typically sneaky Chancellor, I might privately agree with the general, especially since large-scale resistance on Chesterton would make for excellent anti-Capellan propaganda. If the Suns take Chesterton back, that relieves us of the problem of integrating it, and because of Chesterton's symbolic value, it seems quite plausible that the Suns will tunnel-vision on it. So I might expect to lose Chesterton, but I'd try to set it up so that the Suns take as long as possible doing it, giving me the maximum amount of time to integrate other territories. Then once we do lose it, we can put out all the standard propaganda about the vile Davionistas. If I'm the Chancellor, I like having enemies that look powerful. Nothing rallies the Confederation better than fear of a common enemy.

So where did the Kansu Braves, Bharatiya Ganpats, Chesterton Long Rifles, and Hamal Cossacks come from if not from Kansu, Bharatiya, CHesterton and Hamal? Giving money and weapons to them doesn't make them any less from these planets.

There are billions of people on Chesterton, and the Confederation has a very strong interest in supporting the line that the oppressed people of Chesterton long to rejoin their brothers and sisters in the Confederation and so on. It seems entirely appropriate for the Confederation to name a few units after those planets, particularly since it reinforces the Confederation's own sense of having been historically wronged. Continuing to prominently display the name 'Chesterton', and staff those units with whatever number of Chestertonian malcontents they can recruit, is an excellent way to support the Confederation's sense of historical victimhood.

If that makes sense? The Confederation's people are particularly devoted to the military and supportive of Capellan military goals because of the idea that the Confederation has been wronged. It was invaded, unprovoked. It was morally pure and innocent until greedy, thuggish neighbouring states tried to steal its land and enslave its people. The more reminders you have of that narrative, the better. 'Ancestral Capellan worlds' is one of the best justifications for war they have, and the people must never forget how much their neighbours have stolen from them.

Iracundus

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #23 on: 08 May 2017, 16:47:37 »
As of 3145 though, it certainly seems the CC is trying to hold and pacify Chesterton.  The Hargreaves family is installed and the 5th MAC seems to have tried being light handed in its treatment of "fellow Capellans".  Now whether this works in the long run we don't know, but the CC certainly tried the carrot alongside the stick.  Remember pacification does not mean turning the population into cheering Capellan citizens, just convincing enough of the population to keep their heads down and not buck the system.  There will always be extremists on either side, but if the bulk of the population decide being sheeple is best, then that world could be considered pacified. 

The Capellan welfare state is probably the single best carrot the CC could offer to historically neglected FS worlds.  This would probably not work with Chesterton.  However on worlds where the population is living in the equivalent of the 19th or early 20th century, suddenly receiving more modern medical care for example (which has more immediate material benefits to the recipients than Capellan state sponsored education) might make the locals decide the Capellans are not that bad after all.  They might still grumble but refrain from going so far as to turn rebel and pick up guns. 

solmanian

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Re: The Chesterton Worlds
« Reply #24 on: 08 May 2017, 21:58:46 »
The Capellan welfare state is probably the single best carrot the CC could offer to historically neglected FS worlds.  This would probably not work with Chesterton.  However on worlds where the population is living in the equivalent of the 19th or early 20th century, suddenly receiving more modern medical care for example (which has more immediate material benefits to the recipients than Capellan state sponsored education) might make the locals decide the Capellans are not that bad after all.  They might still grumble but refrain from going so far as to turn rebel and pick up guns. 
They won't be seeing any of that for years. Any resources that might be going to the planet will almost certainly be diverted to support military operation on the front, and that includes the logistical network of jump ships and drop ships.
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