Thunderbolt AA Missile

[Empyrus]

BattleTech is oddly dominated by autocannons and artillery when it comes to air defenses. Even for the 80s future, it is odd for missiles were largely the dominant form of anti-aircraft defenses even then.
Obviously, against VTOLs autocannons and other guns are reasonably effective but against very fast conventional aircraft and fusion-rocket aerospace fighters, lack of anti-air missiles feels slightly odd. (Yes yes, there's the Arrow IV.)

The fact the Thunderbolt missile launchers are slightly lackluster produces and opportunity to address both things partially by introducing alternate ammo type for T-Bolt launchers optimized for anti-aircraft use.

The Thunderbolt AA missile is a modified ammo type for existing T-bolt launchers that gains bonus range and "flak" ability at expense of increased minimum range and reduced damage. And increased cost, of course.
The reduced damage and increased minimum range represent stronger booster and seeker-head taking space and weight and thus forcing reduction in the warhead size, not that this is a big deal for anti-aircraft weapon.


Tech Base: Inner Sphere, Tech Rating E, availability rating XXXE. Prototype date: 3140. Introducing faction: ??? Rules level: Experimental. Cost is 75k C-bills per ton (50% than standard T-bolts). BV as T-bolt rounds (pretty sure ammo BV is same regardless of type).
T-bolt AA-5/10/15/20 damage is 2/4/6/8, respectively. Has Flak bonus against appropriate targets (-2 to hit, so not as good as LB-X cluster ammo which has total bonus of -3).
Range for these rounds is (minimum/short/medium/long) 10/12/18/24 instead of the usual 5/6/12/18.
Ammo per ton is 12/6/4/3, respectively (as normal for T-bolts). Critical hits to ammo cause ammo explosion as if it were normal T-bolt rounds (eg a full slot of T-bolt 5 AA missiles would explode for 12x5=60 damage, this is due to missile fuel despite the smaller warhead.)
Vulnerable to AMS systems as usual.
T-bolt AA missiles cannot be used for indirect fire.

The inability to fire indirectly is to prevent potential cheesy tricks but i'd rationalize this with the guidance system and the stronger rocket motor along with self-destruct system (for missed rounds) preventing their use for indirect fire, they are anti-air missiles after all.

Potential issues:
-Too good? T-bolts are not stellar weapons but this might give them incredible niche as AA weapons. OTOH, the launchers are rare-ish and their limited ammo reserves would be even more limited if some magazines were equipped with these AA-rounds.
-How would these work in AeroTech games? Do ASFs gain flak bonus against each other?

What do you think?

[Red Pins]

I like it, but are you sure there isn't an AA Thunderbolt already?

You know, there really doesn't seem to be any type of 'layered' air defense.  This might address the sort of homing 'SHRAAW' (Short-Range Anti-Air Weapon) that counters low-level flyers only, like Conventional Jets, WiGEs, and VTOLs.  The type of thing only good for the lowest AS map sheets.

[Empyrus]

The Thunderbolt has no alternate munitions at all. Indeed alternate munitions would go long way to make the weapon more interesting and useful, as long as the alt munitions wouldn't overlap with LRM munitions.
One reason i made this AA missile.

The Arrow IV has Air-Defense Arrow (ADA) missiles. Max range is two low attitude hexes/ground map sheets.
And ASFs/CFs can carry Air-to-Air Arrow IVs and Light Air-to-Air missiles. But that's it for dedicated missile AA weapons in BT.

[Daryk]

I think the vulnerability to AMS dooms them, but no more so than the regular Thunderbolt.

[Empyrus]

I think the vulnerability to AMS dooms them, but no more so than the regular Thunderbolt.

Well, AMS is somewhat rare. And even more so in ASFs! On top of my head, i can only name one ASF with AMS: The Saber Defense Special which has twin LAMS.

Obviously, a unit with only one T-bolt launcher is questionable choice (regardless of target), but something like my custom Longbow with 8xAES enhanced T-bolt 5s and 10 tons of ammo... I wouldn't be worried about AMS at that point.
Though canon units with multiple launchers and ammo are, unfortunately, rare.

[Daryk]

It's another one of those technologies that depends heavily on knowing what your opponent is bringing.  Aside from that, I like the idea.

[Empyrus]

It occurs to me that the T-bolt needs other ammo options as well...

How about miniature artillery rounds? AE damage in one hex or with one hex radius? Very small damage, no extended range like these AA missiles.

EDIT Must not overlap with LRMs.

[Red Pins]

The Arrow IV has Air-Defense Arrow (ADA) missiles. Max range is two low attitude hexes/ground map sheets.
And ASFs/CFs can carry Air-to-Air Arrow IVs and Light Air-to-Air missiles. But that's it for dedicated missile AA weapons in BT.

And the normal range for these are what, 18 hexes?  That eems good given the difference in ammo per ton.

I'm OK with new ammo types, but trying to differentiate from LRMs would be difficult.  What do you have in mind?

[Empyrus]

There is no difference for ammo per ton. For example, standard T-bolt 5s are 12 rounds per ton, and my T-bolt AA 5 has 12 rounds per ton as well. I figured the smaller warhead justifies the extra range without actually massing any more.
I added the extended range because i thought without LB-X's better to-hit bonus (-3 vs my AA missile's -2) and with reduced along with T-bolts other limitations (heat, weight, limited ammo, AMS vulnerability) might make these T-bolt AAs still undesirable.
(Also thought a missile weapon should have good range, it is one reason they're used as AA weapons IRL after all.)



As for other munitions and how to differentiate them from LRMs...
Some overlap is probably OK. Like Semi-Guided T-bolts. On the other hand, just copying LRM alt munitions for T-bolts seems boring.

For example, that "artillery" munition i suggested, something LRMs don't really do.
"High explosive missile" could deal AE damage with one hex radius. T-bolt 5 HE deals 3 AE damage in impact hex and 1 in each surrounding hex, T-bolt 10 HE deals 5/2 damage, etc.
These probably should weight more (half ammo, round down) because total damage goes up.
Would be competing with Artillery Cannons though.

EMP missile? Would be basically bigger MagPulse, or perhaps function like TSEMP or EMP mines?

There doesn't need to be many options. Just something to make T-bolts a bit more interesting option.

[Daryk]

If you're going to go the AE route, the T-Bolt 5 should only affect the hex it hits.  Maybe the same for the 10.  Otherwise, you'll end up giving artillery performance in a much lighter package.

[Empyrus]

Ah, true. Let's just limit all T-bolts HEs to single hex, easier that way. Basically it is a specialist munitions against stacked units rather than miniature artillery.

[Daryk]

It's what 'mech mortars could (should) have been, in my opinion...

[Red Pins]

Interesting?  Hm.  Well, this is what I use in my AU;

Thunderbolt-TOW Missile
   Left with shortages of modern electronics and seeking to counter the growing use of electronic warfare among the New Clans, the Legacy Cluster’s Civil Government ordered historical databases combed to identify possible battletechnology they might be capable of producing.
   The Thunderbolt-TOW system duplicates the most common anti-armor system of the 21st Century, allowing missile crews the ability to guide a projectile by means of a nose-mounted camera and wire drum mounted with the launcher.  Ignoring the EW raging around their vehicles, Civil Government forces are able to use the system to its full potential, attacking and destroying specific locations on BattleMechs and vehicles.

Game Rules
   The Thunderbolt-TOW provides a gunner the ability to inflict the full damage of a standard LRM launcher while ignoring ECM penalties, but can only be fired from a stationary launcher.  With the optical guidance system, however, the missile can be guided over terrain obstacles such as hills but restricts it to vehicle use.  It is unable to engage BA, Infantry, and airborne targets.
The system allows players to make aimed shots at a +2 penalty, even when out of direct LOS, but depends upon visual conditions at the time of launchings.  The Thunderbolt-Tow missile is vulnerable to AMS systems, and is hindered by Smoke and weather conditions (found in Tactical Operations).  The Thunderbolt-TOW is the only missile allowed on portable turrets.

              Heat    Dam           Range        Ammo      Wt                         Space              Tech
Weapon               Std      Std         M/S/M/L        (ton)      (tons)   M  E  CV  SV  F  SC  DS Rating
TTOW-10                 5         10         5/6/12/18          6            5        -    -   1      2   -     -      -      D
TTOW-15               7         15         5/6/12/18          4            7        -    -   1      3   -     -      -      D
TTOW-20               8         20         5/6/12/18          2            9        -    -   1      5   -     -      -      D

[Empyrus]

So, your setting has ECM affect weapons fire? Because that does not apply in standard BattleTech.

[Red Pins]

No, its mostly standard, that's just fluff.  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The big thing was actually talking to a CAF vet who described using it.  It fit in well with the mix of Clan/IS modern/Primitive tech in the AU, the big thing was firing over blocking terrain with a chance for a aimed shot.  Mind you, it was mostly put on cheap, open vehicles - they're ambush hunters, and they go up like popcorn.  Their only advantage is cost, range, and numbers.

Is this something you were thinking of?

[Empyrus]

Interesting concept. Aimed-shot capable missiles that is. And indirect ones even more so. Because that's what your TOWs are, indirect aimed-shot capable, if i the text right?

Not sure i'd make them T-bolt ammo though. An Apollo/Artemis-like addon, sure. I'd argue 'Mechs can fire wire-guided missiles though, nothing really prevents that.

"Ares guidance fire control system". Addon weights one ton and adds one crit, all T-bolts must have it. Ares-compatible missiles can use aimed shot rules as normal, but also when firing indirectly. Unit that used MP for any purpose during the turn it fired incurs +1 to-hit penalty.
Ares missiles are not compatible with non-standard T-bolts (eg T-bolt AA, HE, EMP).

As for ECM resistance... there exists radio-guided TOWs so maybe this Ares system could have radio-guided and wire-guided modes or variants. The former doesn't work in ECM environment but does not have to-hit penalty from moving?

[Red Pins]

Yup, that's it.  But because of that, I needed a downside.

So, a gunner has to be guiding it by wire, not a computer, because ECM would render radio signals useless.  You want a vehicle, not a Mech, because the Mechwarrior is too busy to be spared to control it, and most Mechs don't carry a gunner.  Weather conditions affect how well you can see the target through the camera, and the launcher needs to be stationary to keep from tangling the wire.  Nor can it fire into or out of woods hexes because the trees tangle the wire and snap it.  Add the fact it can't be an enclosed weapon (not surrounded by armor), fed by a magazine, or engage an airborne target, and its a near match for a RL weapon.

Besides, according to the fluff, its developed by the Civil Government of my AU.  The Clans are rich, successful - the CG population is cherry-picked for the best, the brightest, the most successful.  Their educational and industrial base would be about equivalent to the Outworlds Alliance.  Primitive tech is what they have to fight back and defend themselves with.  For them, the Thunderbolt/TOW is cheap and simple enough to manufacture, able to shoot out locations besides the facing one on enemy units, and can't be jammed by the expensive ECM systems the Clans can (barely) manufacture.

So, big bonus being able to fire over hills and still get a change to make an aimed shot, but you're dependent on good sight conditions and dead meat if you get caught in the open, although you can always hope he's going to shoot at somebody else while you're a sitting duck.  I think its fairly well balanced, it worked well in playtesting.  What do you think?

Although, back on topic.

[Andras]

All I want is NARC homing TBolts. Then I can blind fire indirectly at suckers with NARC pods on them.

[Red Pins]

All I want is NARC homing TBolts. Then I can blind fire indirectly at suckers with NARC pods on them.

I didn't know they could do that.

[Nightsong]

I didn't know they could do that.

Yep. Was my favorite change in Total Warfare. Narc-capable LRMs can fire indirectly on a narced target with only the +1 IDF penalty. It's why I love my Tessen or iNarc PHawk in my C* Level II. The -1 for the iNarc makes up for the IDF penalty for my Griffin and Bombardier.

[Daemion]

It occurs to me that the T-bolt needs other ammo options as well...

How about miniature artillery rounds? AE damage in one hex or with one hex radius? Very small damage, no extended range like these AA missiles.

EDIT Must not overlap with LRMs.

A big missile like the T-Bolt should be able to get some AC style Armor Piercing action. Call it tandem-charged.