Need Suggestions - 160 Point Game Value Change

[Dies Irae]

Under the old Alpha Strike point system, we've been using a number of 160 point forces to sell the system and aggressively promote the system with pick up games.
Maybe I'm blind, but with the new Beta point system being introduced for testing, was it ever stated what the new "160 point" equivalent value is?

Or am I really blind?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I don't think it was, but then again there never really was a suggested game size under the original system either.

I suppose one could re-calculate the company totals for those lists presented in AS, but that's potentially going to come up with some notable variation.

In looking at the spreadsheet with all the computations in it, I notice (but haven't gone through and calculated) that it seems most units points went up somewhere around 2x  to 3x in value under the new system.  So maybe crank that 160 up by 2x or 3x to compensate.

I'd figure that if/when the new PV stands on its own it'll be easier to just have nice round points limits, like 250 or 500.

[Dies Irae]

370+- seems to be the mean for the rulebook company level force lists.

We've noticed that player generated lists tended to spike toward 400 - 450 point totals on the other hand. Average force point multiplier was about 2.3 for most units, with problem units like the LGB-13C Longbows and some fast movers severely skewing that formula.

[Azakael]

Looking at the lists I had written in an earlier thread in this subforum these are the original and new points values:

Khorsakov's Cossacks (My C Rated Merc Command. Decided on them.):
Original: 167 (They had 16 units. Otherwise, they'd be less than the expected 160.)
New: 426 (Well, that was a jump... It drops to 360 if I remove the lance with 2x Cicadas, a Spider, and a Locust. The original point value dropped to 141.)

Steiner:
Original: 163
New: 357

Davion:
Original: 158
New: 353

Word of Black Level II (Needs a vehicle Level II to go with it.):
Original: 79
New: 184

Kurita:
Original: 157
New: 366

Now the really weird ones -
Marik:
Original: 154 (Of all the companies I had sorted out, not counting the WoBbie Lv 2, this was the lowest PV force.)
New: 397 (The *highest* PV2 company I had.)

Liao (A List that is actually not printed in my thread...):
Original: 155 (Second lowest force.)
New: 391 (Second highest force.)

How about a Skill Modified list, since they changed the modifiers for skill levels:
Brotherhood of Outreach née Chaos March Irregulars (And if they survive the Jihad, will be called the Sword Breakers):
Original No Modifiers: 141
Original Skill Modifiers (Mix of Skill 3, 4, and 5 pilots and crews): 155
New Unmodified: 355
New Modified: 360

And finally for those who are curious -

Crusader Clan Wolf Second Line Binary:
Original: 150
New: 288 (Seems much better to me.)
Skill 3: 317

Clan Coyote Front Line Nova:
Original: 144
New: 291
Skill 3: 320

I like the Clan change. It brings the values back down to a reasonable number for them. I'd have to look at the book Binaries to see how they weigh (with Skill 3) against the book Companies.

[Savage Coyote]

Yeah, I added up the Lyran Company from Alpha Strike and got 363 and that was one of, if not the lowest costed company of the bunch IIRC.

[Dies Irae]

Lyrans - 159 PV, 363 Beta
Kurita - 160 PV, 371 Beta
Davion - 158 PV, 370 Beta
Marik - 164 PV, 390 Beta

And a couple of my own forces:

Iron Guard Assault Company: 160 PV, 436 Beta
2nd Sword of Light Battle Company: 160 PV, 419 Beta

It's kinda odd. I guess to an extent it's what happens when players like me design for 'efficiency'.

[glitterboy2098]

so call it 400 PV2.0?

[Adrian Gideon]

It's a great question. Looking over the average increase in the  new numbers I think 400 is a good round number.

[Savage Coyote]

It's a great question. Looking over the average increase in the  new numbers I think 400 is a good round number.

Off to redesign a force.  Thanks Ray! :P

[Adrian Gideon]

Lyrans - 159 PV, 363 Beta
Kurita - 160 PV, 371 Beta
Davion - 158 PV, 370 Beta
Marik - 164 PV, 390 Beta

Liao -  168 PV, 377 Beta
Jade Falcon - 224 PV, 386 Beta
Wolf - 225 PV, 408 Beta

[glitterboy2098]

huh, so serendipitously the clans end up at the same place. certainly makes balancing games easier.. Company on Binary, like in canon, instead of Company vs Star..

hmm.. i'll have to sit down and refigure my own Liao, Davion, and Clan forces to see where they suspect the Liao force will end up way less than 400 PV2.0..but the Davion one will be close.

[Von Ether]

Just my two cents in designing units in the Beta. Now when you have a gap between units, the gap seems to be much bigger, like a whole mech bigger.

Under the old rules, the differences between points might a light mech at most, but that could be tweaked a little. Now the difference is a size two or three mech. Makes the balancing a little trickier.

Not complaining, just making an observation.

[Klat]

Just my two cents in designing units in the Beta. Now when you have a gap between units, the gap seems to be much bigger, like a whole mech bigger.

Under the old rules, the differences between points might a light mech at most, but that could be tweaked a little. Now the difference is a size two or three mech. Makes the balancing a little trickier.

Not complaining, just making an observation.

I've noticed this too. While certainly not an issue (IMHO) it is interesting. I will playtest using these point values sometime next week but my initial observation is that the units are very balanced now. For example, the PEN-2H Penthesilea had the same PV (19) as an AS7-D Atlas  :D Now it's almost 25% cheaper (40 vs. 52)

As to the OP; I think 400PV seems about right. I'll try putting some company sized lists together at that PV and see how they look. I suppose the real test will be Clan vs. IS...

[Von Ether]

I've noticed this too. While certainly not an issue (IMHO) it is interesting. I will playtest using these point values sometime next week but my initial observation is that the units are very balanced now. For example, the PEN-2H Penthesilea had the same PV (19) as an AS7-D Atlas  :D Now it's almost 25% cheaper (40 vs. 52)

As to the OP; I think 400PV seems about right. I'll try putting some company sized lists together at that PV and see how they look. I suppose the real test will be Clan vs. IS...

Ugh. Clan PV reporting almost needs a survey to make sure we are getting the proper picture.
1.) Was Zillbrigen used?
2.) When you stopped using Zillbrigen, quantify how much more improved the clans were when using coordinating fire.
3.) While using Zillbrigen, did you improve pilot skill points?
4.) If you improved pilot skill points, by how much? Did you pay PV for the skill increase or give it for free.
5.) How biased are you towards the Clans

Seriously, if we the only info we get is that "The Clans now suck" without the above qualifiers, then comment borders on opinion as compared to feedback.

[Klat]

Ugh. Clan PV reporting almost needs a survey to make sure we are getting the proper picture.
1.) Was Zillbrigen used?
2.) When you stopped using Zillbrigen, quantify how much more improved the clans were when using coordinating fire.
3.) While using Zillbrigen, did you improve pilot skill points?
4.) If you improved pilot skill points, by how much? Did you pay PV for the skill increase or give it for free.
5.) How biased are you towards the Clans

Seriously, if we the only info we get is that "The Clans now suck" without the above qualifiers, then comment borders on opinion as compared to feedback.

I hadn't thought of that. For my games:

1.) I'm really on the fence with Zell but...
2.) This could be very informative. I may try some games using Zell and without to see how much things change. It could take a bit though. I'm inclined to say it's completely optional at all times and must be agreed to by the players. If that's the case then IMHO Zell has no bearing on force balance.
3.) I would not unless the PV was paid.
4.) I always enforce PV increases for skills at my table
5.) I hate all factions equally. Actually that's not true I really hate the bears and I secretly like Davion. That said I think this could be a factor. I may be inclined to say the Karhu is OP simply because my opinions regarding the faction get in the way. Mmm... I may need to get a neutral party to give their perspective. To be fair most games at my table are "run what you brung" affairs so factions don't play much of a role. I understand that everyone's table is different though. It may be better to discuss special abilities and PV calculations rather than units.

I think I'll try putting together a few games over the coming weeks wherein I have a third party take notes on their observations.

[Xotl]

I really wanted skill increases to be a thing that people would actually take without grumbling, so that we could have accurate Clan vs. IS battles.  If people are testing those sorts of fights, it's important that they're paying for the Skill cost improvement as written.

I'm anxious to hear how it goes.

[Adrian Gideon]

Yup. I wanted to really call-out/highlight the new skill multipliers, but I forgot , and it's kinda buried in there. But it is there.

[Klat]

Yup. I wanted to really call-out/highlight the new skill multipliers, but I forgot , and it's kinda buried in there. But it is there.

Which document? I'm having trouble finding it.

[Adrian Gideon]

Do you have the new PV rules PDF? Page 4, bottom left, page 13, bottom left

[Klat]

Do you have the new PV rules PDF? Page 4, bottom left, page 13, bottom left

There it is! Thanks O0

That was a bit buried in there. So if I understand it correctly skill now increases PV in 10% increments for ground forces and 20% for aerospace?

I'm anxious to play with that, it certainly is easier to calculate as one does not need a table and it makes force balancing easier. The higher aerospace cost makes sense as those units use skill rolls to survive thresholding whereas ground units just roll to hit.

[Xotl]

There it is! Thanks O0

That was a bit buried in there. So if I understand it correctly skill now increases PV in 10% increments for ground forces and 20% for aerospace?

Yep.

I'm anxious to play with that, it certainly is easier to calculate as one does not need a table and it makes force balancing easier. The higher aerospace cost makes sense as those units use skill rolls to survive thresholding whereas ground units just roll to hit.

Yeah, that's exactly the reason for the two separate values.  For aero, improved skill is actually quite important.