How does the DCMS organize C3 units at the battalion/regimental level?

[Kidd]

How so?

No more than 12 Mechs may operate in a C3 Network, period.

[bluedragon7]

How so?

You can only connect a maximum of 12 units and in your example each company commander is connected to 10 other units in his company and also connected to the CO and the other two company commanders. If you draw it on a piece of paper you will see, that the company commander will receive C3 data from more than the allowed 11 other units. Neither the use of more than 4 C3M nor the use of multiple C3M in a single unit allow you to exceed the number of 12 units in a network. You will probably now argue that those are separate networks but there is no provision in the rules for a single unit being part of multiple networks.

[truetanker]

Batt CM1- Lance Master to three slaves
Batt CM2- Master to:
             - Company CO1 Slave
             - Company CO2 Slave
             - Company CO3 Slave

1st Company CM1- Batt CO and Company Lances 2 and 3
1st Company CM2- Lance Master to 2, 3 and 4

2nd Company CM1- Batt CO and Company Lances 1 and 3
2nd Company CM2- Lance Master to 2, 3 and 4

3rd Company CM1- Batt CO and Company Lances 1 and 2
3rd Company CM2- Lance Master to 2, 3 and 4

Each Company uses 1 CM for Tactical control, and 1 for Strategic control. Each Lance has a Master connected to 2 Slaves with the 3rd Slave connected to the Company CO. Company CO has same set up, but their connected to each Company and slaved to Batt. Co, who has another CM for their Lance.

I understand where your coming from with the 12 max. Lances only connect to Lance CO and 2 Slaves with the 4th member non, while the CM2 has 3 connections, 1 to Lance CO and 2 to Company mates. Each Company CO is then further connected via their CM2 to each other and Batt CO, whose Lancemates share their intel in a separate CM.

It sounds like I'm abusing the system, but I am not.

Batt CM1- M, 3S
Batt CM2- Batt M, C1-3 slaved

C1 CM1- C M, Batt / C2-3 slaved
C1 CM2- C M, L2-4 slaved

C2 CM1- C M, Batt / C2-3 slaved
C2 CM2- C M, L2-4 slaved

C3 CM1- C M, Batt / C2-3 slaved
C3 CM2- C M, L2-4 slaved

Each Company has 7 connections, while the Batt has the same. I'm not using more than that.

TT

[RoundTop]

It is a hard maximum. 12 mechs in a c3 network. And no, you cannot combine different networks in the same mech.

Your batt co could have a lance in each of his 3 companies, with one being short one for him, but you would not have proper company networks.

[truetanker]

Since when?

Battalion is connected to 3 Company Commanders on 1 CM and 3 slaves via another CM.
Each Company is connected to a two Lances and the Battalion via 1 CM and THEN connected via another CM to their slaves.
Each Lance is connected to the Company Commander and 2 slaves via 1 CM and with another non-slaved unit.

Each CM is allowed 3 connections... Lances use 3 ( 1 being Slave/Master to Company ), Company uses CM 1 to Master 2 Lances and connects to Batt slave, CM2 is used for their Lance. Batt uses 3 ( 1 being Master to 3 Companies ) and CM2 is used as Master to 3 slaves of it's own.

Each CM uses 7 total connections.  No where does it forbid me from having each and every CM from not connecting to one another. As long as it stops before 12.

Just like the RL Military Chain of Command. Batt CO uses 1 for tactical ( CM1 to 3 slaves ) and 1 for strategic ( CM2 to 3 Company ). Now each Company CO uses 1 for tactical ( CM1 to 3 slaves ) and 1 for strategic ( CM2 to 2 Lance CO and Batt. CO ). Each Lance CO uses a single CM for tactical ( CM to 2 slaves and Company CO ) and has a non slave bodyguard.

TT

[ravensword]

Since when?

Total Warfare p. 132, bottom of the second column:

...the C3 network can never be extended beyond 12 units.

Also, p. 133 indicates that the only possible configurations are those laid out in the diagrams on p.132.

[truetanker]

But I'm not.

Each Tier uses 7 max.

Batt CO cannot use a Lance slaved to another to target.
Company CO cannot use a Lance not slaved to it for a target.
Lance Co cannot use another Lance's Target, unless TAG is involved. ( Which case TAG is universal. )

I was just talking out loud and realized I was wrong.

Batt CM1 talks to 3 Company CO.
Batt CM2 talks to it's Lancemates.

Company CM1 talks to Batt. and 2 Company CO's.
Company CM2 talks to 2 Lances and a Lancemate.
Company has 2 Lancemates NON-SLAVEd.

Each Lance CM talks to Company CO and 2 Lancemates.
Lance has 1 Lancemate NON-SLAVEd.

TT

[Kidd]

@TT - I believe your premise is that 1 Mech can be included in more than 1 network. I think it is implicit in the rules that this is not allowed, but you should raise a rules query if you want Word of God confirmation.

I think its doubtful they'll allow it though, pal. C3 rules have been enshrined for years and years now.

[truetanker]

Just did and Xotl moved it to proper spot.

Thanks Xotl!

Now to wait....

Other than that question, I hope we can get a proper answer.

Now how would the DCMS use Naval C3? I've always wondered, as everybody else has it by now.

TT

[Tai Dai Cultist]

It's priced to be 50% of a one-point upgrade in skill, and even at medium range is worth two - meaning that it's at 25% of its average effect in game. If you can get a unit (preferably with ECM) into Short range and have multiple units at LONG range with high Long damage, you're at a +4 for every single one of those units. Oh, and look at all the shiny C3M units with Long 3 or better... hell, I made a guide for it too.

Yeah, slightly off track for how the thread started about in-universe, but it IS fun to discuss, even if we disagree. :D

I don't know that we're actually disagreeing... I was saying that in comparing the advantage given by C3 to the advantage given by skill improvements that it's arguable as to which is better, given their pricings.  C3 gives a better bonus, yes.  However it only gives it some of the time, whereas the skill improvement is a smaller bonus, but you never get it denied to you.

C3's advantage being as easy as it is to negate (and end up with dead PVs) I don't think it's wise force building strategy to go beyond 1/3 of your force using C3.  Going beyond that and you have too many PVs in the C3 basket.  Too much risk for the reward.

Now how would the DCMS use Naval C3? I've always wondered, as everybody else has it by now.

Well the DCMS doesn't use any Naval C3.  What with the DCA owning and operating all Kuritan WarShips and DropShips and all :D

However that pedantry aside... we don't know a ton about Kuritan black navy ops.  We don't know a ton about any black navies given the game is focused squarely on the mechs...  But we do have some light on DCA NC3.  Taihous and Achilles 3088s are key point units.  There never were enough WarShips to have a blanket doctrine for NC3... any WarShips that may have had it would have been one-offs. AFAIK the only other canonical NC3 ship is the Nekohono'o SCL PWS, which unfortunately only has semi-official stats via megamek.  But using those stats, that'd be the ship class the Taihous and Achilles' are spotting for.

[Hellraiser]

I guess I'm not understanding what TT is saying.

The maximum # of units in a C3 Network is 12. 
Its been that way since TRO3050 came out in 1990?
Also as stated, you can't have a mech connected to more than 1 network.

How are you connecting to only 7 units?

[Hellraiser]

I regards to the OP I'm of the opinion that it varies from unit to unit but I very much doubt that there is even 1 battalion in the DC that is fully equipped w/ C3 networks for every company.

Its probably more like a single company in a battalion of the regiment with some lance sized units scattered in other battalions.

[RoundTop]

Memory lane time.

Battletech compendium (revised), 1994. Ore harmony gold lawsuit (1st one)


 Page 114

"The complexity required to coordinate actions using this system limits any network to twelve mechs."

 And page 115: "different networks cannot share coordinating abilities during a battle"

[truetanker]

I guess I'm not understanding what TT is saying.

The maximum # of units in a C3 Network is 12. 
Its been that way since TRO3050 came out in 1990?
Also as stated, you can't have a mech connected to more than 1 network.

How are you connecting to only 7 units?

There are TWO networks, Dual C3Masters.

Command C3 connects Batt. CM to Company CO's ( 3 ) for Strategic control.
Regular C3 connects Company CO CM to Lance CO's ( 2 ) and a Company Lancemate for Tactical control, leaving 2 NOT connected.
Lance CO CM connects to Lance only.

12 Mechs in a Company, BUT only CO, his bodyguard and the Lance CO's are connected via Dual CM1. CM2 is regular for Lance CO. Now add another CM to Batt to Command the Companies, he also gets a Dual CM1, CM2 for his lance command.

Where I got the 7 from?

1) Battalion Commander + Lancemates ( 4 )
1) Battalion Commander + 3 Company Commanders  ( 4 )
1) Company Commander + Lancemate + 2 Lance Commanders ( 4 )
1) Lance Commander + Company Commander + 2 Lancemates ( 4 )

It's less than 3 players from one to the other.

Batt CO asks for sitrep, Company C, Bravo Lance has a target. Quick! Call in Alpha's 2nd Lance with A4 support. Company B's Alpha Lance will TAG while Company C's Bravo provides over watch.

In other words, run a complete set of networks separate from the norm. C3 is allowed up to 12 per Company, correct. But by adding a second C3M to the mix, you can get Battalion to coordinate the battle from afar, Strategically.

I'm NOT sharing Info, just that the second network is for Command purposes only. Telling where to go and what's up.

TT

[Kidd]

From TRO 3085 - A typical DCMS assault dropship squadron consists of Taihous, Nekohono'os, Achilles, and Okinawas. As usual we can presume dropship squadrons would normally comprise 3 or 6 dropships, carried on either an Invader or Star Lord. However larger task forces are obviously doable, and not out of the possibility because a Naval C3 system links up to 6 units.

Hence at the absolute upper end of the scale, a fully-equipped attack dropship squadron probably comprises 6 NC3-linked assault dropships plus 1-2 Okinawas or even a Vengeance providing fighter support. However in TRO 3085 it is noted fully-linked squadrons are "rare"... not nonexistent, mind.

I regards to the OP I'm of the opinion that it varies from unit to unit but I very much doubt that there is even 1 battalion in the DC that is fully equipped w/ C3 networks for every company.

Its probably more like a single company in a battalion of the regiment with some lance sized units scattered in other battalions.

Per FM DCMS the 22nd Dieron has "twelve C3 networks" and is noted as 1 of the best-supplied units in this regard in the DCMS. Even the 1st Genyosha doesn't have that many C3 nets.

I'm NOT sharing Info, just that the second network is for Command purposes only. Telling where to go and what's up.

But what's the point of this? C3 is for shared targeting. Comms is free. In fact I think one would get better value from installing Communications Equipment rather than C3 Masters.

[truetanker]

Look in other words, Command ( Batt CO ) tells Company A to provide support on the Command Channel for Company Cs push. The CO of A Com. tells 2nd Lance CO to fire off those A4 @ Sector 7, fire for effect. Company B's Alpha Lance runs around TAGing everything in preparation of an incoming barrage, the over watch, C Com., patrols the outer flanks looking for targets that might escape.

IN NO WAY did the Batt Lance unit CONTROL or provided INFO sharing on the Battlefield, other than Command from a radio. They DIDN'T use more than a radio ( fluff IC ) action. BUT if need be, the Company Commander CAN come to the aid of the Battalion IF NEED BE. But their respected Companies CANNOT!!!

Unless they are supporting with standard weapons, or in special cases like A4.

ECM is ALWAYS on....
TT

[truetanker]

But what's the point of this?

Point is this, Commanders of C3 Companies control Lances of 4 units. Battalion Commanders control Companies of 3 twelve units. BUT cannot use C3 to communicate with them? Please.

It's like : We got Radio sir! Cool! Let's talk to HQ. No can do sir, Radio is for Company use only, we have to hand wave HQ sir.

Really?

I'm out, will wait for answer.
Thank you very much...

Truetanker

[Tai Dai Cultist]

From TRO 3085 - A typical DCMS assault dropship squadron consists of Taihous, Nekohono'os, Achilles, and Okinawas. As usual we can presume dropship squadrons would normally comprise 3 or 6 dropships, carried on either an Invader or Star Lord. However larger task forces are obviously doable, and not out of the possibility because a Naval C3 system links up to 6 units.

Hence at the absolute upper end of the scale, a fully-equipped attack dropship squadron probably comprises 6 NC3-linked assault dropships plus 1-2 Okinawas or even a Vengeance providing fighter support. However in TRO 3085 it is noted fully-linked squadrons are "rare"... not nonexistent, mind.

I'll take this opportunity to toot an old thread where I explored this very thing.  Obviously it's fan created/noncanonical but it's all rooted in canon.

[RoundTop]

Point is this, Commanders of C3 Companies control Lances of 4 units. Battalion Commanders control Companies of 3 twelve units. BUT cannot use C3 to communicate with them? Please.

It's like : We got Radio sir! Cool! Let's talk to HQ. No can do sir, Radio is for Company use only, we have to hand wave HQ sir.

Really?

I'm out, will wait for answer.
Thank you very much...

Truetanker

Not quite. More those 12 (company) are sharing live targeting data and sensor data on all they can see. An assault mech comes over the hill.

CM after movement: on the comms asked batt for 2 a4 rounds to grid a7 (17 hex diameter bubble), and directa his tag units to get in range next the.

C3 coordinates direct. Fire on the mech.

Next turn: after movement, c3 lefts 2 of the Masters make tag shots at it with low target numbers. A4 missiles then streak in and wreck it, directed by the tag (no c3 needed).

C3 is a tactical system for the local battlefield. Hq comms is a strategic system for coordination of later support and artillery

[iamfanboy]

I don't know that we're actually disagreeing... I was saying that in comparing the advantage given by C3 to the advantage given by skill improvements that it's arguable as to which is better, given their pricings.  C3 gives a better bonus, yes.  However it only gives it some of the time, whereas the skill improvement is a smaller bonus, but you never get it denied to you.

C3's advantage being as easy as it is to negate (and end up with dead PVs) I don't think it's wise force building strategy to go beyond 1/3 of your force using C3.  Going beyond that and you have too many PVs in the C3 basket.  Too much risk for the reward.

I'm exactly the opposite - it's all or nothing. Either you go into C3, and have plenty of ECM/C3BSS to make sure your connections aren't interrupted, or have several scout units available so they have to decide which ONE they cover with an ECM bubble.

And don't forget core Alpha Strike doctrine: ALWAYS move your fast units LAST, and your slow units FIRST, making it a game of prediction as to where they'll need to place the bubbles.

And, hell, even if you can't get short range, going from Long to Medium range modifiers is STILL a skill bonus of +2.

From what I can glean on the International Alpha Strike Players group, 400 PV seems standard - I preferred 500, but here's what I'd do with 400, though not necessarily with my collection:

FIRST LANCE
Naginata NG-C3B
Locust LCT-5W2
Banshee BNC-8S
Blackjack BJ2-OB

SECOND LANCE
Atlas AS7-CM
Hermes HER-4K
Whitworth WTH-2A
Hatchetman HCT-5K

THIRD LANCE
Schiltron Mobile Fire-Support Platform Prime (Skill 5)
Yasha VTOL (Standard)
Yasha VTOL (Standard)
Mantis Light Attack VTOL (ECCM)

I'm not sure I like the compromises in ECM coverage or long-range firepower, and the Schiltron is Skill 5, but it's still got 6 units with a Long of 2+, dual ARTAIV, four sources of ECM (three of which move at 22"+, and one of which moves at 10" and has A/S 10/4!)

Unless someone purpose-takes a force with 5-8 sources of ECM just to counter your force, you should be OK - and if is someone is enough of a jerk to do so, feel free to devise another list that doesn't use C3 at all.

Now, how would I go sub-400 with my own stuff... time to take a think around the subject...

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I'm exactly the opposite - it's all or nothing. Either you go into C3, and have plenty of ECM/C3BSS to make sure your connections aren't interrupted, or have several scout units available so they have to decide which ONE they cover with an ECM bubble.

See, in my experience it's not ECM that denies you your C3 bonus... it's C3M destruction.  Any TMM1 unit that makes itself a priority target to the enemy is required to either break LOS and hide, or accept being destroyed (and in all likelihood, in only 1 round).  And C3Ms are automatically priority targets.  Unfortunately, most C3Ms are on TMM1 platforms....

If I were to take an all-C3 force, I'd use Schiltrons and a Strider-M for my masters.  The former can lob artillery while hiding outside LOS, and the latter combines decent TMM with being cheapcheapcheap.  And being omnis, they all can bear BA as ablative armor.

But if I don't want to play like a munchkin and instead use the wide variety of stuff the DCMS has available for use, yeah I find it just doesn't pay to go all in for an advantage that's just going to end up getting turned off/negated.  I'd rather pay slightly more for the smaller but more dependable skill bonus for the bulk of my "force enhancement budget".

[RoundTop]

List of TMM2+ units with C3M for DCMS:

Mechs: Bishamon (3), Daimyo, Komodo, Scorpion, Grand dragon, Strider (C3Boosted master x2)
Vees: Skulker, Maxim (dual master)

[iamfanboy]

See, in my experience it's not ECM that denies you your C3 bonus... it's C3M destruction.  Any TMM1 unit that makes itself a priority target to the enemy is required to either break LOS and hide, or accept being destroyed (and in all likelihood, in only 1 round).  And C3Ms are automatically priority targets.  Unfortunately, most C3Ms are on TMM1 platforms....

If I were to take an all-C3 force, I'd use Schiltrons and a Strider-M for my masters.  The former can lob artillery while hiding outside LOS, and the latter combines decent TMM with being cheapcheapcheap.  And being omnis, they all can bear BA as ablative armor.

But if I don't want to play like a munchkin and instead use the wide variety of stuff the DCMS has available for use, yeah I find it just doesn't pay to go all in for an advantage that's just going to end up getting turned off/negated.  I'd rather pay slightly more for the smaller but more dependable skill bonus for the bulk of my "force enhancement budget".

Which is what my Ghost Bears are for - there's nothing quite like a Skill 2 Stone Rhino and Dire Wolf working in concert to deal out 4 point lovetaps at Long range while a Gladiator closes in for some 7-point brutality, and a pair of Dasher-H's fly in to drop off Bearhunter Gnomes and backstab. With my Comstar stuff I tend to use C3i a fair bit because it's an interesting technology with a different style of play even than C3. My mercs... tend to be what I pick up when a friend wants to use one of the other three styles of play.

At least, back when I had the chance to play a lot. *sigh*

On the one hand, while it's nice that Battletech has no real 'faction differences' in the way that the models are allowed in the RULES - especially with how Battlemechs can be handwaved away as salvaged or purchased even across enemy factions - it's also nice to have some definition of what and what not a given faction is good at.

[Ice_Trey]

A suggestion, not from the lore side of things but from the player side.
When I first started out planning my first 'mech army, I didn't have access to Tech Manual to see how to do calculations for C3 Networks. What I wish I had known was that for every mech linked to a C3 net, each of those mechs bump their collective battle value up by five percent.
That means a C3 lance network is 20% more expensive, and a C3 Company network is 60% more expensive.

Simply cutting the network down to three separate lances will save you a lot of Battle Value, and limiting your dependence on C3 Nets to one lance per company will make the BV costs negligible. Keep in mind before you make a force that especially by the time that the Fedcom Civil War rolls around, ECM is a dime a dozen. Consider how much BV your force is worth before and after networking it, because that's the difference in force strength you'll be feeling if there's two or more ECM units on the other side, or even if there's significant cover (like in urban combat).

It's a pretty big wakeup call when you find out that your 17000 BV company balloons up to 27000 bv when fully networked, especially when your opponent brings 27000 BV worth of units, including a number of fast ECM harassers.

[Col Toda]

Having your whole unit Is wasteful in BV . Any artillary unit like the O-Bakemono is pointless  . Elite pilots  is wasteful as well . I field about have C3 lance only never company level as it kills too much tonnage with the double master . Bang for the C bill and maximizing the BV . Is key .

[Hellraiser]

List of TMM2+ units with C3M for DCMS:

Mechs: Bishamon (3), Daimyo, Komodo, Scorpion, Grand dragon, Strider (C3Boosted master x2)
Vees: Skulker, Maxim (dual master)

This limited selection is one of my biggest pet peeves with C3.

Where is the Firestarter-O with C3M to lead Recon lances in 3058.
Where is the BlackHawk-KU-O with C3M to lead Cavalry lances in 3058.

Early C3M was almost exclusively on BIG-SLOW assault units.
Even today almost years after it was introduced the selection of Fast C3M, or Fast NARC for that matter, are both woefully under represented in cannon.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Well there is a canonical Black Hawk-KU C3M configuration.  But the appropriateness of fielding "personal" omnimech configurations as if they were as generally available as stock configurations is debatable.

[Kidd]

This limited selection is one of my biggest pet peeves with C3.

Where is the Firestarter-O with C3M to lead Recon lances in 3058.
Where is the BlackHawk-KU-O with C3M to lead Cavalry lances in 3058.

Early C3M was almost exclusively on BIG-SLOW assault units.
Even today almost years after it was introduced the selection of Fast C3M, or Fast NARC for that matter, are both woefully under represented in cannon.

That was the C3 thinking back then. Give C3 to the damage dealers rather than the fast movers.

The focus in the DCMS also was on Omni-flexibility rather than C3 nets.

[SCC]

This limited selection is one of my biggest pet peeves with C3.

Where is the Firestarter-O with C3M to lead Recon lances in 3058.
Where is the BlackHawk-KU-O with C3M to lead Cavalry lances in 3058.

Early C3M was almost exclusively on BIG-SLOW assault units.
Even today almost years after it was introduced the selection of Fast C3M, or Fast NARC for that matter, are both woefully under represented in cannon.

Where is the Timber Wolf with C3 config is the real question.

[Kidd]

Where is the Timber Wolf with C3 config is the real question.

Timber Wolf Z