Isorla- Taking warriors as bondsmen and other Clan personnel

[Colt Ward]

OOC we know Clan warriors transfer their loyalty to whoever claims them, they are superior tactical warriors, and support personnel can also be claimed as isorla to join the new 'Clan' or whatever group defeats their force in honorable combat.  We know that Clan techs are likely superior to their IS counterparts when it comes to understanding the more advanced weapons . . . they likely would suffer when deal with 'outdated' Succession Wars era equipment or finding ways to bypass/work around any problems.  I personally think the absolute nature of this construct would drop as the decades rolled by, and of course it will have variations based on the Clan & their status.

But . . . IC, especially in the 3050s this may not have been widely known to commanders in the Inner Sphere, especially if they did not have much interaction with the Clans.  How do you think a Commander would respond in the late 50s to a defeated Clan warrior who tells a unit commander he is now a part of the unit that defeated him?  What about Elementals who survive the destruction of their point b/c of the suit systems?  Would the tech staff jump to say they were isorla and would a unit commander trust them?

Does this change if the unit is a merc?  Would it matter if their liaison experience and well briefed about the Clans & their culture?

[Archangel]

Well one needs to remember that for most units it wasn't up to them regardless of whether they were a House unit or a mercenary unit.  After all the Clans won most of their battles during the Clan invasion leaving few opportunities for IS forces to capture Clan warriors.  As a result the Great Houses would have demanded that all Clan warriors, as well as any non-combat personnel, be turned over to their respective House intelligence agency for interrogation.

[AlphaMirage]

Yeah Clan Invasion era I'd turn them over to intelligence for interrogation. 

Post Clan era if I was a merc I'd give them the standard timeout period I give any former honorable enemy that wants to switch sides.  Otherwise it's the Liaison's problem.

As a house unit I'd probably still hand them over to my nation's intelligence service.

[Colt Ward]

To narrow it down . . . I am more interested in the last half of the 3050s, when the IS started to successfully raid across the borders and were raided against if they were above the Truce Line.

[glitterboy2098]

i think the Cartoon captured the essence of the general response.. when the Strikers captured Kristen Redmond, they didn't have a clue what isorla meant or how the Bondsman thing worked, and treated her like they would a captured IS pilot.. locking her up, putting guards on her, interrogating her. even when she went out of her way to help them they treated her like a dangerous enemy, in very unclan like fashion. being a Jade Falcon, she did not take that well.

while the Cartoon is of questionable details (being an inaccurate in universe TV show as well as one here IRL), odds are most units would have reacted the same way, not really having a frame of reference for the Bondsman Tradition. though IIRC by the time of the battle of Tycross the Fedsuns had at least figured out that if they went through the motions of accepting the downed pilots into their "clan" (IIRC, they used "clan victor" at one point) it kept the POW's calm and made them easier to manage.

as for mercenaries.. well i could see any the Dragoon's tutored being more accepting of it. Mercenaries in general would likely be more comfortable with POW's wanting to join up.. a lot of merc units are comprised of people from many different places, some of which had fought each other before or even recently. and mercenaries understand loyalties shifting based on circumstances (different contracts would put them under different employers and perhaps on opposite sides of conflicts) i suspect that while they wouldn't immediately accept a clan warrior in, they would at least be more open to the idea that the warrior is being honest.

To narrow it down . . . I am more interested in the last half of the 3050s, when the IS started to successfully raid across the borders and were raided against if they were above the Truce Line.

by that point i think the IS would have figured out that the clan warriors were generally sincere, and would have worked out a policy where captured clanners would be declared Bondsmen of [insert successor state here], and then after returning from the raid or battle, would send the Clan warriors off to central collection points for processing, debriefing, and perhaps retraining for use as soldiers for the military. though i suspect that said warriors would be assigned far from the clan fronts at first.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I'd think the House intel agencies would be nabbing any and all Clan warriors brought back in this time frame.

Mercs otoh, they already have a "free agency" mindset almost to the degree that Clan warriors have.  If a Clanner were willing to sign on as a form of sphereoid bondsmanship, I'm sure mercs would be hard pressed to turn down a warrior as skilled as a Clanner.  Finding the Clanner who'd be willing to do so would be the rub.  Even where a Clanner is probably willing to change his Clan allegiance at the turn of fate, Clanners are that way because ostensibly all Clans are "on the same side".  On the other side is the barbarians of the Inner Sphere.  The "Us against Them" doesn't carry over so well outside the Clans.

Still, in the Clan Invasion era a Clanner might find incentive to sign on as a merc if it means NOT being handed over to the ISF or MIIO.

[Iron Mongoose]

A has been said, it's something that would have evolved over time, and it would have been very culture dependent. 

There were only three victories in the initial invasion I can think of: Wolcot, Twycross, and Luthien, along with the culminating victory at Tukayyid, and we know more or less what went down at each.  The Jags had a sort of psudo hejira, so there would not have been bondsmen taken (though there was a missed opportunity, when the Galaxy commander who offered himself up was 'rejected' and executed; interesting to think of what a Jag Galaxy Commander could have told Hohiro and co about the Jags).  We know about "Clan Victor" post Twycross.  At Luthien, the Dragoons being there meant there was a lot of local knowledge about Clan customs, and we know the Dragoons at least took many bondsmen.  And after spending a lot of time with the Clans, Focht knew all about Clan customs, and I think we do know that the ComGuards did take a small number of bondsmen.

After that time, I think knowledge of that custom did become more wide spread, so by the mid 50s any unit on the Clan front would have been briefed on what to do.  Still, chances are any captured warriors would have been sent to HQ for the intel guys to talk with them. 

I think the biggest change would have been post-Bulldog, since only after that would there have been large numbers of captured Jags to contend with.  My guess is that Victor's example would have been somewhat indicative, but we also know that in many places anti-Clan sentiment ran high, so probably some units would have been more open, and some less. 

As to mercs, again probably it's all about the unit.  Many units, even most units, are pretty open to new recruits, and there are probably more examples in merc units than Great House units (though that's probably just because of the level of detail we get on each) but it's still possible to imagine some units being a lot less welcoming, either because of their history or because of their culture (I just can't imagine a Clanner fitting in with Wilson's Hussars, for example, weather or not they were warmly welcomed.  Conversely, a very anti-Clan unit like the Crimson Crusaders might have been reluctant to take in a Jade Falcon).

This most interesting question would be tech staffs.  We nearly never see them.  I can imagine a merc would jump at the chance, but how often would a merc unit over run a Clan base or liberate a Clan held world?  A great house unit just isn't going to be as hard up for techs, so again they'd probably send any techs off to the NAIS or comparable to help work on reverse engineering Clan tech. 

[Colt Ward]

The reason I ask is that trying to change the MechCommander campaign from a Davion Guards unit to a merc unit for players to use as a starter campaign.  Zulu Company, designation on the Star League OOB, captures several bases that have repair bays and hold them against Jaguar counterattacks as well as capturing or destroying supply/salvage convoys.  On top of taking those bases, they also take down quite a few enemy mechs, so I wonder what the odds of them taking bondsmen would be- especially if their FedCom liaison guides them in Clan culture.

[Iron Mongoose]

I think as far as being briefed on Clan culture, that's got to be as near to a 100% certainty as possible.  Bulldog was perhaps the first time the IS went in with a lot of preparation and a legitimate expectation of victory.  The plan from day one was to have nearly the entire Clan Smoke Jaguar as bondsmen, after all, so each unit would have a plan for how to deal with bondsmen in their area.

Now, would the FedCom/SLDF allow a mercenary unit to actually keep any bondsmen?  I'd say probably.  They're already going to be awash in bondsmen, so unless you've got someone with above average talents or information who needs to be debriefed at a higher level or share their knowledge with higher level technical institutes, your unit would probably be doing the SLDF and Co a favor, taking bondsmen off their hands. 

Plus, there's the Clan sensitivity aspect.  You're the one who proved themselves in battle, who won the prize, as it were, so you're the one they'd be loyal to.  Sure, the Clans understand the right of a superior to a share of their subordinates' isorla, but it's not the norm; again, would work for thouse special cases, but not I don't think wholesale.

Now, of course, it's your unit, so they'd have to behave at with at least a surface level of honor to be worthy of respect, and they'd have to want to.  I suppose a very anti-Clan, "the only good Jaguar is a dead one" type unit (family on Edo, for example) might just find a way to have an "ammo explosion" or something, and grant all their prisoners "bonserf" rather than have to deal with being nice to Clanners, and a unit without honor might find their prisoners taking care of their own bonserf.  So a lot of that's going to be on your players and you, of course.  But for me, I've tended to play my mercs as being very receptive of Clanners on balance (though I don't usually play with too many dispossessed invasion veteran types) and going out of our way to make nice, since being able to add a few above average warriors with specific skill sets (working with and against BA, for example) is very desirable (and all the more since some Clanners won't take a paycheck).

[Terrace]

But for me, I've tended to play my mercs as being very receptive of Clanners on balance (though I don't usually play with too many dispossessed invasion veteran types) and going out of our way to make nice, since being able to add a few above average warriors with specific skill sets (working with and against BA, for example) is very desirable (and all the more since some Clanners won't take a paycheck).

Personally, I figure it'd be more that said Clanners would be baffled the first time they receive a paycheck. Perhaps it escapes their notice for months at a time until someone points out they have a lot of money that's just been sitting in their bank account doing nothing, and would they please cover the bill for this meal already, it's their turn to pay after all.

[Archangel]

Odds of them taking bondsmen would depend upon the assigned mission(s) ie a unit conducting raids is less likely to take a bondsman than a unit participating in a planetary assault.  And this doesn't even take into account whether the unit would trust the bondsman enough to give them a role whether combat-oriented or otherwise.  Just look at the TF Serpent's handling of their GB bondsmen after the Battle of Trafalgar - some units were willing to take them on while others refused to even transport them.  Loren Jaffray's use of his bondsman was an extreme case brought on first by Stirling's Fusiliers' desperate situation and then later by the need to put a body into a 'Mech. 

If you already have enough people for all necessary combat roles why would you run the risk of putting somebody you know very little about in a position to betray you?  While the details of Elson's Revolt might have been kept secret, the fact that a Nova Cat bondsman was at the center of it would have leaked and would have made many wary of taking bondsmen.

[Colt Ward]

I would grant that they would not be given a combat role during the operation, but its more . . . do you let them assist the tech teams and be a go-fer.  Do you take on the Clan techs if you can get your hands on them- or a doc?  Should all these people disappear with a hand wave by handing them over to the liaison or do you track them for taking 'ownership' after the campaign is over?

[Iron Grenadier]

The group I GM for had to go through this. After the Truce of Tukayyid, the unit was stationed on Babaeski along with the 3rd Crusis Lancers. They participated in raids with the Lancers and had to turn over everything. One Jade Falcon Star Captain (Clees bloodline) a player captured became a important NPC. Player was part of the debrief, and eventually was allowed to be responsible for her behavior. After 3057 though the 3rd moved on and the players took up station in the ARDC, and conducted raids on behalf of various corporations and wealthy nobles with a grudge against the clans. From 3058 to 3062 the unit was able to gain 3 more mechwarrior's, several points worth of infantryman and some techs.

The mechwarriors are all NPC's in the campaign now, as is one tech and one former infantryman. Save the former Star Captain and the infantryman (former Jade Falcon Elemental Star Commander, Mattlov bloodname), the rest are all former Steel Viper.

The Star Captain was taken in 3055, and earned combat status in 3058, mainly due to avoiding any issues with FedCom.

[Iron Mongoose]

Odds of them taking bondsmen would depend upon the assigned mission(s) ie a unit conducting raids is less likely to take a bondsman than a unit participating in a planetary assault.  And this doesn't even take into account whether the unit would trust the bondsman enough to give them a role whether combat-oriented or otherwise.  Just look at the TF Serpent's handling of their GB bondsmen after the Battle of Trafalgar - some units were willing to take them on while others refused to even transport them.  Loren Jaffray's use of his bondsman was an extreme case brought on first by Stirling's Fusiliers' desperate situation and then later by the need to put a body into a 'Mech. 

Remember though that most of Taskforce Serpent were national forces, and more than that really top "pride of the nation" type units, and the ELH and NWH are a lot more like micro nations, since most of their forces come up in the unit.  These are not the sorts likely to be welcoming to outsiders at the best of times.  Loran Jeffray himself was held in deep distrust despite being a blood relation (though in fairness, I'd take an ex-Jag over an ex-Death Commando any day).

For 'normal' mercenaries, however, where the members come from all over the Inner Sphere, what's the problem?  The non-Knights from Star Lord had no problems accepting Dawn (Moffat) since she was an above average warrior who didn't want a paycheck.  The very cosmopolitan Free Worlds Guards (despite being a 'pride of the nation' unit) have three ex-Jags (not mercenaries, but it came to mind readily).  Um... in MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries you end up with a Falcon Star Colonel (yes, I know it's not canon).

Point is, it's up to the players in the unit how they feel they should behave.  If you've already got rabid Lyrans and Leaguers in the same unit, Snakes and FRR types, FedRats and Cappies, then what's another Clanner?  While if your unit all comes from a small town on a backwater world in the Oberon Confederation, then it's possible to imagine them slaughtering Clanners on sight.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, you get two old Jaguars in MC2- Nuke and something else.  I think its Nuke that looks like he has EI tattoos.

Its a small group of mercs participating in kicking the Jaguars out, I do not figure either warriors or techs will be given a lot of responsibility during the campaign.  I would also roll to see how many of the techs were former DCMS tech staff taken as bondsmen when their parent units got rolled over in the initial Invasion.  I also thought the only time tech teams could be taken as isorla would be if the mechs captured one of the repair bays.

Paranoia is how a merc gets to be a old merc, which was why I mentioned the OOC/IC split- b/c OOC we know they are trustworthy and would be devoted to their new 'Clan.'  The other side is too many Clanners can effect a unit's culture.  Besides the Nova Cat abathka problem the Dragoons had, the amount of Jade Falcon warriors in Snord's Irregulars also caused discipline problems, and both units are ones that should have a greater understanding of Clan culture.

Honestly, doctors and medical staff attached to the touman would also be valuable due to their experience with trauma and superior Clan technology & methods.  Heck . . . it should be some merc contract offer in the 3050s- Tharkad University Hospital is hiring you to launch a Trial of Possession for the medical staff and equipment of X unit on Y world.

[Iron Mongoose]

There are just so perilously few good examples for mercenaries, since so few mercs faced the Clans and won and were in a position to take prisoners.  I'm pretty sure the only fiction pieces are going to be Star Lord, Impetus of War, and Wolf Pack, dramatically different examples, though I suppose there could be something from BattleCorps I never saw or don't remember, or the intro fiction to a source book I don't recall.

As to other examples? Looking at FM:Mercs (3059): The Black Aces have two Falcons in their first wing in the late 50s and yet a decade years later they fight nearly to the last man over Liao, so they seem to have been well integrated (the fact that the unit itself is a fusion between Combine and Confederation culture was doubtless a boon here).  But, there's no mention the Blue Star Irregulars have any Falcons, despite having been in the same battle.  There's no indication any Clanners have joined the Kell Hounds, despite the CO's own son being a Wolf (though we don't know they didn't, either; maybe they just never rose to command positions in such an elite unit, maybe they were just shuffled off to the Wolves). 

I would still argue that outside of a merc unit so high end as to be nearly a small nation unto itself (the Highlanders) a merc unit would tend to be dramatically more welcoming than a nation state.  They don't have academies feeding them, they don't really have a recruiting pipeline, and since all their new recruits are joining up mainly for money they doubtless have experience bringing new pilots into the fold and developing trust and esprit de corps.  A house unit can refuse bondsmen, since they already have a way of getting trained and loyal troops; mercs can't.

[Kitsune413]

Post operation bulldog I'm sure there are clan warriors everywhere. There are certainly plenty on Solaris.

I think for the most part it doesn't work the same way though. Except for heinous mercenary companies.

Most units aren't going to keep a 'Slave' Warrior if they're on the up and up. I'd imagine most Clan Warriors just become free Inner Sphere citizens after they get used to things. They're really good pilots too so most large Mercenary units would be willing to let them pilot mechs. They've only been doing it their whole life.

What would you like to happen Colt? Maybe we can work through it.

[Colt Ward]

No idea really, just trying to plot what might be most likely for those who use the campaign I am putting together.

[Archangel]

I would still argue that outside of a merc unit so high end as to be nearly a small nation unto itself (the Highlanders) a merc unit would tend to be dramatically more welcoming than a nation state.  They don't have academies feeding them, they don't really have a recruiting pipeline, and since all their new recruits are joining up mainly for money they doubtless have experience bringing new pilots into the fold and developing trust and esprit de corps.  A house unit can refuse bondsmen, since they already have a way of getting trained and loyal troops; mercs can't.

Mercs can too especially if they are unsure whether their presence is an asset or a liability.  If one (or more) member of the unit hates Clanners (lost a comrade/loved one, their previous unit was destroyed fighting the Clans, etc) then adding a Clanner to the ranks may cause trouble in the ranks.  Even if a merc unit would consider accepting a Clanner, they are unlikely to do so in the middle of a campaign and risk betrayal (especially after hearing rumors that the Dragoon Civil War was instigated by a Clanner).  Even Clanners don't automatically welcome abtakha into their ranks.  More importantly most Clanners aren't going to be willing to join a mercenary unit as Clan society teaches that people who sell their loyalty aka mercenaries are dishonorable.

Of course there can always be extenuating circumstances that force the mercenaries to accept the Clanner regardless of the immediate concerns of both sides such as suddenly facing a common foe.

[Hellraiser]

Operation Bulldog is probably the first time we actually see Clansmen being taken as Bondsmen by anyone outside the Dragoons.

One of the CapCon units got to keep a bunch of Clan Techs IIRC that they captured at a Depot.

Prior to then, as mentioned, its just not a known part of clan society, outside those that the Dragoons briefed.
Its possible, but unlikely, that a unit that pulls off a win has the "skills" to handle a bondsman properly & as stated the Intel agencies of most houses will want to get their hands on them.

The clans also have Bondsref where they can choose not to pledge loyalty to their new "clan" & given their hatred of mercs, I can see that happening to a good portion of any clanners captured by a merc unit.

It should however be noted that Snord's Irregulars & the Dragoons with their clan origins are notable exceptions to this & increased their personnel #'s quite a bit with these captives.

[YamiNoKen]

So beside Fidelis/RotS, do we have other canon example of Isorla/bondsmen became "self-sustaining?"

I had non-canon merc units that ended up with Bondsmen Galaxies/Naval Star.  But the game ended before that become an issue.

Was there enough iron wombs being used in IS that's can be captured?  Or is that something CDS/CSF is willing to sell to an IS buyer?

[(SMD)MadCow]

So beside Fidelis/RotS, do we have other canon example of Isorla/bondsmen became "self-sustaining?"

Raging Horde Mercs:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raging_Horde

[FedRatCowboy]

Didn't Victor have an former Clan Smoked Jaguar Elemental as a bodyguard, complete with her own Elemental Battle Armor Suit?

[Kitsune413]

Victor did have a clan elemental bodyguard.

There is a village on Solaris made of clan expatriots. Wolves Dragoons but they are a bit obvious and different.

I always felt like, being a prince and the commander of the federated commonwealth/ Fedsuns it was easy for Victor to have a bondsman... and it's probably easier for Kuritans since they have a caste system... but maybe still hard...

But I can't imagine the Lyran Commonwealth would approve of, "Owning" people. I'm sure maybe they would let them enlist if they wanted too. But that's pretty different.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I wouldn't think it's a question of "owning" people, Clan or otherwise.

The example of Victor scales fairly well all the way down to petty nobility and career officers.  If a Lyran officer defeats a Clan force, it's certainly plausible that a Clan prisoner might view service to his vanquisher as a form of bondsmanship, while the patron views it as having acquired a very enviable man-at-arms.  Imagine what the Joneses would say!

Even if we're not looking at a personal servant in the Clan bondsman, the Clanner might view his service as being owed to an institution in place of the former Clan.  The Xth Lyran Regulars is his "Clan" now, or Defiance Industries is.  From the employer's point of view, the Clanner is a highly valuable consultant/expert. 

With regards to Mercenaries acquiring Clan bondsmen, either scenario works well.  Whatever rationalization works better in the Clanner's mind in question.

[glitterboy2098]

IIRC, Tiaret was made a warrior of the SLDF, so she wasn't really a 'slave' as Victor's body guard. she, like Galen Cox, basically assigned herself to the job, and others cut orders to make it her legal post. (Galen Cox/Jerrard Cranston probably was the one to actually arrange the paperwork)

presumably the military would do similar.. slotting them into a suitable position the way you would new recruits. private individuals probably would "hire" them so they have all the proper social paperwork.

[Kitsune413]

I feel like for every mention of a clan bondsman/warrior (Well. Victor's) there are way more references to, "This is the planet where we keep our clan prisoners."

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I feel like for every mention of a clan bondsman/warrior (Well. Victor's) there are way more references to, "This is the planet where we keep our clan prisoners."

I would imagine LOTS of captured Clan personnel simply disappeared after going into ISF and LIC hands for interrogation.

[Von Jankmon]

There were only three victories in the initial invasion I can think of: Wolcot, Twycross, and Luthien, along with the culminating victory at Tukayyid, and we know more or less what went down at each.  The Jags had a sort of psudo hejira, so there would not have been bondsmen taken (though there was a missed opportunity, when the Galaxy commander who offered himself up was 'rejected' and executed; interesting to think of what a Jag Galaxy Commander could have told Hohiro and co about the Jags).

This is partly misread.  While the Jag Commander had himself shot when the Kuritans declined his offer of service in their confusion.  They did however gain four mechwarriors and four elemental warriors who were bid away as part of the prize for winning Wolcott.  I do not think the Kuritans expected the hardware they won to include the personnel who operated them, and clearly did not understand when desponded and equally confused elementals claimed to now belong to 'Clan Kurita'.  They must certainly did not expect o could possibly comprehend that hose eight warriors could now be replied upon in battle to serve faithfuly and would teach what they knew of their machines honestly.

Only Wolf's Dragoons could have enlightened them them on what they had, and at the time they were not yet on speaking terms.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There are just so perilously few good examples for mercenaries, since so few mercs faced the Clans and won and were in a position to take prisoners.  I'm pretty sure the only fiction pieces are going to be Star Lord, Impetus of War, and Wolf Pack, dramatically different examples, though I suppose there could be something from BattleCorps I never saw or don't remember, or the intro fiction to a source book I don't recall.

There's an Elemental who's a Dragoons bondsman in the beginning of DRT.

The Crater Cobras are noted in Era Report 3067 as having a company of captured Omnimechs and a lot of anti-Clan unit bonuses, including the ability to force any Clan mech they challenge into a duel, so I'd assume they've captured numerous bondsmen by then.

Really, I'd expect that by the mid 50s, any unit, House or Merc, that's being sent to attack Clan forces and is actually expected to succeed should be familiar enough with the Clans' fighting style to know about bondsmen.