Author Topic: The Battle of Tukayyid  (Read 7831 times)

victor_shaw

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The Battle of Tukayyid
« on: 12 July 2015, 11:49:19 »
I was going to run the Battle of Tukayyid for my Players (AToW + Battleforce 3)and was wondering what the order of battle for the clans was?
« Last Edit: 12 July 2015, 11:52:12 by victor_shaw »

Col.Hengist

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #1 on: 12 July 2015, 11:53:09 »
Do you have the book? It spells it all out there.
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victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #2 on: 12 July 2015, 12:00:12 »
Do you have the book? It spells it all out there.
I do have the book, but all it has is how to setup the forces for the Battletech board game.
and the story only hits on the more importent units not the whole OOB.
and with the wolfs and jade falcon it only hits on the wolf spiders and falcon guard.

Bren

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #3 on: 12 July 2015, 12:33:53 »
Smoke Jaguar
Beta Galaxy
Alpha Galaxy

Nova Cat
Alpha Galaxy
Beta Galaxy
Gamma Galaxy

Ghost Bear
Alpha Galaxy
Beta Galaxy
Delta Galaxy

Jade Falcon
Gamma Galaxy
Delta Galaxy
Vau Galaxy

Diamond Shark
Alpha Galaxy
Gamma Galaxy
Omega Galaxy

Steel Viper
Alpha Galaxy
Gamma Galaxy
Zeta Galaxy

Wolf
Alpha Galaxy
Beta Galaxy
Gamma Galaxy
Delta Galaxy
Epsilon Galaxy

victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #4 on: 12 July 2015, 15:20:08 »
Going over the forces the clans deployed and wondering why the jade falcons got to land 4th (They deployed 18 clusters the largest amount of any clan)
1.Smoke Jaguar = 8 Frontline Clusters
2.Nova Cat = 9 Frontline Clusters
3.Ghost Bear = 12 Frontline Clusters
4.Jade Falcon = 14 Frontline Clusters, 3 PGC, Falcon Gaurd(At the time was disgraced)
5.Diamond Shark = 8 Frontline Clusters, 6 PGC
6.Steel Viper = 10 Frontline Clusters, 4 PGC
7.Wolf = 13 Frontline Clusters, 4 PCG

Totals
SJ= 8
NC=9
GB=13
JF=18
DS=13
SV=14
W=17

So im not sure how the landing order was desided?

Im guessing using PSG puts you behind anyone who doesnt
and not sure how much of a role the cities played in to this
« Last Edit: 12 July 2015, 15:44:59 by victor_shaw »

victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #5 on: 12 July 2015, 15:47:11 »
Seems the Jade Falcons are the only ones out of place
Using the Falcon Guard could not be worth 5 clusters ?

Bren

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #6 on: 12 July 2015, 16:11:48 »
Landing order was decided by what forces were bid and what target cities were selected.

Terrain that favoured the defence and less forces bid allowed an earlier landing time.

victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #7 on: 14 July 2015, 22:59:42 »
so I Broke it down even more and the landing order is still messed up for the falcons

Clans                   Galaxies           Clusters             Trinaries
Smoke Jaguar               2                     8                          43
Nova Cat                       3                     9                          47
Ghost Bear                    3                    13                        58
Jade Falcon                   3                    18                         91
Diamond Shark             2                     9                          45
Steel Viper                    3                    14                         70
Wolf                              5                    17                         83

Now lets do some Bidding math (These numbers are not offical)
Frontline trinary= 1point
2nd Line Trinary = 1/2 Point
Solahma = 0 Points
Disgraced Trinary = -1/2 or -1 point

SJ  = 43
NC = 47
GB = 58
JF  = 74.5
DS = 48
SV = 60
W = 72

now you have to ask what are the cities worth that even with this the jade falcons should have landed last ?
« Last Edit: 15 July 2015, 03:01:37 by victor_shaw »

Archangel

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #8 on: 15 July 2015, 02:40:25 »
I find your deployment numbers questionable.  Just because a galaxy deployed forces to Tukayyid doesn't mean the ENTIRE galaxy was deployed.  For example, as far as I am aware only a single Cluster from the Diamond Sharks' Omega Galaxy (Third Shark Regulars) deployed to Tukayyid and sacrificed itself so the survivors from Alpha and Gamma Galaxies could escape.  Two more Omega clusters were lost when the Ghost Bears retook Nyserta shortly after the Battle of Tukayyid.  Alpha and Gamma deployed at most four oversized clusters each so I estimate your figure for the Diamond Sharks is 1-2 Clusters too large.
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victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #9 on: 15 July 2015, 02:54:36 »
I find your deployment numbers questionable.  Just because a galaxy deployed forces to Tukayyid doesn't mean the ENTIRE galaxy was deployed.  For example, as far as I am aware only a single Cluster from the Diamond Sharks' Omega Galaxy (Third Shark Regulars) deployed to Tukayyid and sacrificed itself so the survivors from Alpha and Gamma Galaxies could escape.  Two more Omega clusters were lost when the Ghost Bears retook Nyserta shortly after the Battle of Tukayyid.  Alpha and Gamma deployed at most four oversized clusters each so I estimate your figure for the Diamond Sharks is 1-2 Clusters too large.

The Info on Diamond Shark is the one place Im not to sure of since most of the info on there Order of battle is post clan wars.
(and you are right about Omega I readjusted the charts ) but that just means that Diamond Shark should of landed earlier which adds to the screwed up landing order  >:D
Now on to Alpha and Gamma, you are forgetting that Diamond Shark Keshik (Skates) are Cluster size units.
Now the main point of this post is why the Jade Falcons got to land when they did (and we know they landed with all of Gamma/Deta/Vau from the Jade Falcon Sourcebook)
« Last Edit: 15 July 2015, 03:20:17 by victor_shaw »

massey

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #10 on: 15 July 2015, 10:08:41 »
The Info on Diamond Shark is the one place Im not to sure of since most of the info on there Order of battle is post clan wars.
(and you are right about Omega I readjusted the charts ) but that just means that Diamond Shark should of landed earlier which adds to the screwed up landing order  >:D
Now on to Alpha and Gamma, you are forgetting that Diamond Shark Keshik (Skates) are Cluster size units.
Now the main point of this post is why the Jade Falcons got to land when they did (and we know they landed with all of Gamma/Deta/Vau from the Jade Falcon Sourcebook)

I figure it's explained by the intricacies of Clan bidding, probably something that isn't really covered by the rules that we know.  We do know that many of the Clans conspired to make the Wolves drop last -- so presumably they were coordinating their bids in such a way that they achieved an unusual result.  Diamond Shark and Steel Viper may have "taken one for the team" and bid in such a way that they screwed the Wolves over.  Add to that the differences in value for the JF target cities, and that can explain why they landed in the order that they did.

massey

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #11 on: 15 July 2015, 10:45:55 »
You're also probably looking at one of the most complex bidding arrangements that had ever existed.  This isn't two Galaxy Commanders arguing with each other over who will destroy a Lyran battalion.

Joe:  I bid four trinaries.
Steve:  Oh yeah?  I'll do it with three trinaries!
Joe:  Then I'll do it with three trinaries, but one of them will be led by Sgt Doofus over there.
Steve:  Ha!  I'd like to see that.

And then Joe wins the bid.

This would be different.  This would be a much more complex bidding process, involving 7 different Clans, (I think) 14 different cities, multiple possible landing locations, and bidding for landing times as well.  They'd probably have to dust off an old manual for exactly how these complex bids are supposed to work, or create a unique set of rules on the spot.  Every Clan also went in with a different plan.  So you're looking at a lot of potential strategies, depending on what you value.  1) Bid so that you try to land early.  To the Smoke Jaguars, this was most important.  2) Bid so that you get the landing spot you want.  3) Bid so that you get the easiest cities to capture.  4) Bid so that you get the most units.  5) Bid so that you bring your most prestigious units.  6) Bid so that you screw over the Wolves.  There are probably a lot more strategies too.

And then remember that some Clan leaders are simply better at bidding than their counterparts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCcV5sVi5NM

Some guys would probably bid away their forces too quickly.  Some guys might tell which way the wind was blowing and act more conservatively.  In the Aidan Pryde series, I seem to recall Kael Pershaw mentioning that the Falcon Khans were very conservative in how they bid, which resulted in a late drop, a long distance from their targets.  We aren't sure what order the Khans went in bidding their forces.  It could be that the Steel Viper and Diamond Shark Khans jumped the gun a bit (cutting their forces down too early), or got in a bidding war over their targets, or whatever.  Perhaps the Falcons bid very high initially, so they had more units to bid away.

It's probably easier to write out the process as a piece of fiction rather than try and recreate the exact bidding process.  And remember that each of the Khans is going to have a different personality, their own assumptions about the fight, and there were clearly a lot of mistakes made overall in the planning process for Tukayyid.  I'm imagining it somewhere between a poker game and an auction. 

Vition

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #12 on: 15 July 2015, 10:57:22 »
Seconding what Archangel said: the units listed in the Jade Falcon sourcebook is not a be all end all of the units who participated in the Battle of Tukayyid.  And if you read through the various books you'll find quite a few discrepancies.  The following clusters are known to have been involved in the battle.

Gamma Galaxy
Falcon Guards
12th Falcon Regulars
3rd Talon
7th Falcon Regulars
Delta Galaxy
305th Assault
2nd Falcon Jaegers
1st Falcon Striker
Gyrfalcon Eyrie
Vau Galaxy
1st Falcon Striker
89th Striker
94th Striker
104th Striker
Listed in Tukayyid References but not in JFSB
1st Falcon Jaegers - Epsilon Galaxy
2nd Falcon Regulars - unknown
1st Falcon Velites - Gamma Galaxy
Listed in JFSB but not mentioned in Tukayyid References
Turkina Keshik
5th Battle
9th Talon
4th Talon
4th Velites
All Eyrie except Gyrfalcon
All Solahma

So there's quite a bit of iffiness in what was actually bid, being as little as ~15 clusters to as many as 25.

Bren

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #13 on: 15 July 2015, 12:09:13 »
So there's quite a bit of iffiness in what was actually bid ...

Occam's razor here. FASA no doubt didn't have some sprawling, all-encompassing, thorough spreadsheet on who had what and where for Tukayyid.

Years ago I myself tried to come up with a detailed who-what-where document on the Refusal War and there were ... issues.

Just gotta remember all this is supposed to be backdrop/flavour for your tabletop fightin' and not some rock-solid history thesis paper.

victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #14 on: 15 July 2015, 15:57:42 »
Listed in Tukayyid References but not in JFSB
1st Falcon Jaegers - Epsilon Galaxy
2nd Falcon Regulars - unknown
1st Falcon Velites - Gamma Galaxy
So there's quite a bit of iffiness in what was actually bid, being as little as ~15 clusters to as many as 25.

I just assumed most of these where miss numberings of units in the writeup like the 1st Falcon Jaegers being the 2nd since we know that Marthe Pryde fought along side Aidan Pryde and the Falcon Guard (Falcon Guard Novel) in command of the 2nd Falcon Jaegers but all ref. to the unit in the writeup say the 1st.
so
1st Falcon Jaegers = 2nd Falcon Jaegers
2nd Falcon Regulars = 12th Falcon Regulars
1st Falcon Velites = 4th Falcon Velites
« Last Edit: 15 July 2015, 16:05:46 by victor_shaw »

Archangel

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #15 on: 15 July 2015, 19:08:46 »
Now on to Alpha and Gamma, you are forgetting that Diamond Shark Keshik (Skates) are Cluster size units.

I'm didn't. With their Keshiks, Alpha and Gamma still numbered 4 front-line clusters each (due to their clusters being oversized 5 regular sized clusters each).  Add in the single cluster from Omega Galaxy and you still only came to 11 clusters.

Quote
Now the main point of this post is why the Jade Falcons got to land when they did (and we know they landed with all of Gamma/Deta/Vau from the Jade Falcon Sourcebook)

The Jade Falcon sourcebook says the Falcon Khans "bid fiercely" to win a good position and deny the Wolves a good one.  Including the disgraced Falcon Guards instead of a more reputable unit was part of the Khans' bidding strategy to win that spot.  Giving the Falcon Guards the ability to freelance was meant more as an insult ("stay out of the way of the professionals") than any actual expectations.  The Falcon Khans simply hoped that the Falcon Guards wouldn't embarrass the Clan any further and were very pleasantly surprised by their battlefield performance.

If you say that ALL of Gamma/Delta/Vau landed, that would include their solahma and eyrie clusters.

If you are relying on the unit rosters in the Clan Wolf sourcebook, it has to be noted that the rosters are set for two week BEFORE the Battle of Tukayyid.  This is clearly stated on page 70.  It is highly doubtful that even with Natasha deliberately holding back during the bidding that she would have been able to deploy the entire Clan Wolf invasion force to Tukayyid.
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victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #16 on: 15 July 2015, 23:45:02 »
I'm didn't. With their Keshiks, Alpha and Gamma still numbered 4 front-line clusters each (due to their clusters being oversized 5 regular sized clusters each).  Add in the single cluster from Omega Galaxy and you still only came to 11 clusters.

The Jade Falcon sourcebook says the Falcon Khans "bid fiercely" to win a good position and deny the Wolves a good one.  Including the disgraced Falcon Guards instead of a more reputable unit was part of the Khans' bidding strategy to win that spot.  Giving the Falcon Guards the ability to freelance was meant more as an insult ("stay out of the way of the professionals") than any actual expectations.  The Falcon Khans simply hoped that the Falcon Guards wouldn't embarrass the Clan any further and were very pleasantly surprised by their battlefield performance.

If you say that ALL of Gamma/Delta/Vau landed, that would include their solahma and eyrie clusters.

If you are relying on the unit rosters in the Clan Wolf sourcebook, it has to be noted that the rosters are set for two week BEFORE the Battle of Tukayyid.  This is clearly stated on page 70.  It is highly doubtful that even with Natasha deliberately holding back during the bidding that she would have been able to deploy the entire Clan Wolf invasion force to Tukayyid.

looks like they had 13 clusters during the battle (- 2 Eyric and all the solahma units) But this doent jive with the KIA,WIA reports.

Archangel

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #17 on: 16 July 2015, 14:57:41 »
looks like they had 13 clusters during the battle (- 2 Eyric and all the solahma units) But this doent jive with the KIA,WIA reports.

13 clusters is significantly different from the 18 clusters you previously cited.  I wouldn't put too much faith in the accuracy of FASA's data.
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victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #18 on: 17 July 2015, 10:57:28 »
13 clusters is significantly different from the 18 clusters you previously cited.  I wouldn't put too much faith in the accuracy of FASA's data.

The 13 cluster total is from 1 sentence in the opening of the falcon forces section, so it was easy to miss.  :-\
It still dont explain why all the units show casualties from the fighting on Tukayyid. :(
Did jade falcon break there bid during the fighting?

Bren

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #19 on: 17 July 2015, 16:27:12 »
I assume they just applied casualty markers to every unit without thinking too much about it.

Although one way of looking at it is that the Jade Falcons either broke their bid or called in the last units it had bid away before positions were secured. In some descriptions of the bidding process this is allowable without any loss of honour.

Also, another way to look at it, is that the Com Guards 'broke their bid' first when they brought units from other, defeated Clans' theatres against the Jade Falcons - freeing the Falcons to do the same. This might not result in a loss of face and therefore escape mention.

Again, whatever works for your game or will satisfy your 'headcanon' (love that term).

Archangel

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #20 on: 17 July 2015, 20:23:17 »
It still dont explain why all the units show casualties from the fighting on Tukayyid. :(

Only question you need to answer.  Where does it say that ALL those casualties are from the fighting on Tukayyid?

As previous stated, the casualties on the Clan Wolf rosters are ALL pre-Tukayyid.  I don't think that the JF Sourcebook says whether the losses documented therein are ALL from Tukayyid or whether some from other battles as well.  And again, as I previous indicated, FASA wasn't exactly know for the accuracy of its data.

It is doubtful that any Clan had a lot of extra reserves to call in as bidding would have determined which clusters would be deploying to Tukayyid.  Clusters that had been removed from bid forces would have remained in their respective OZs to secure those worlds from House forces.  After all how humiliating would it have been to win on Tukayyid only to find most of, in not all of, one's OZ has been lost to House forces?
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victor_shaw

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Re: The Battle of Tukayyid
« Reply #21 on: 18 July 2015, 00:13:46 »
Only question you need to answer.  Where does it say that ALL those casualties are from the fighting on Tukayyid?

As previous stated, the casualties on the Clan Wolf rosters are ALL pre-Tukayyid.  I don't think that the JF Sourcebook says whether the losses documented therein are ALL from Tukayyid or whether some from other battles as well.  And again, as I previous indicated, FASA wasn't exactly know for the accuracy of its data.

Sorry on that one you ar totally wrong
"During the battle of Tukayyid , Clan Wolf lost over 80% of its warriors to wounds or death. The warroirs who Fell on Turkayyid are noted with the abbreviations KIA and WIA" Page 70 Clan Wolf Sourcebook.