Poll

So if we gotta retcon, how far back do we go?

All the way back (2012 and sooner)
82 (22.7%)
Early Spaceflight (2013-2397)
11 (3%)
Age of War (2398-2569)
15 (4.2%)
Star League (2570-2779)
10 (2.8%)
Kerensky's Exodus (2780-2785)
6 (1.7%)
First Succession War (2786-2829)
3 (0.8%)
Second Succession War (2830-2865)
0 (0%)
Third Succession War (2866-3025)
11 (3%)
Fourth Succession War (3026-3029)
10 (2.8%)
Post-Fourth War (3030-3048)
10 (2.8%)
Early Clan Invasion (3049-3052)
19 (5.3%)
Late Clan Invasion (3053-3062)
9 (2.5%)
FedCom Civil War (3063-3067)
11 (3%)
Jihad (3068-3085)
23 (6.4%)
Republic Era (3086-3130)
21 (5.8%)
Dark Age (3131-3150)
25 (6.9%)
NEVER! YOU CAN RETCON MY UNIVERSE WHEN YOU PRY THE DICE FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!
95 (26.3%)

Total Members Voted: 361

Voting closed: 31 October 2012, 17:39:19

Author Topic: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?  (Read 36453 times)

Hawk

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #60 on: 20 September 2012, 15:26:04 »
MY COLD, DEAD HANDS, HERB! MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!! O0
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MadDogMaddux

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #61 on: 20 September 2012, 18:34:56 »
My Retcon is simply this: Jackson Davion should never have died the way he did/when he did. Consequently, the WoB should have been kicked off New Avalon sooner, and Jackson's presence amid the leadership chaos of the Post-Jihad time should have led the FedSuns into a stronger nation than what current canon reveals. Possibly this would change even who is the next First Prince.
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #62 on: 20 September 2012, 19:44:47 »
Hello,

My Retcon is simply this: Jackson Davion should never have died the way he did/when he did. Consequently, the WoB should have been kicked off New Avalon sooner, and Jackson's presence amid the leadership chaos of the Post-Jihad time should have led the FedSuns into a stronger nation than what current canon reveals. Possibly this would change even who is the next First Prince.

It amuses me to see this, considering that Jackson's death was the result of the outcomes from a CDT world-wide event, so in essence it was the BattleTech players at the demo team events who got the man killed.

Thank you,

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pensiveswetness

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #63 on: 20 September 2012, 20:06:29 »
Age of War

Why there, you may be asking?

...because if you get ride of the Unseen, maybe we can finally get something that i would excrete square brass bricks from a tight orifice: TV, Direct-to-Cable/Netflix or Movies. If you can get Harmony Gold off your &^%es (and maybe, Topps will let you, sadly), then maybe all this awesome fiction that i grew up with, will see the light of day... too bad Rachael Welsh is too busy to play Natasha K... Sure that means changing a lot of things (or not, since the re-seen serve their purpose well.) but if that means you can finally expand the fan base... derp.

I mean, my boy would &^%$ himself if a Mechwarrior movie ever came out. he's already raving mad about MWO...

ianargent

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #64 on: 20 September 2012, 20:19:12 »
I don't know if I'd consider a redo of the Unseen in the SW timeframe to be a retcon; or really any art changes. I would love to see the Unseen with new art in the SW period (separate from the Phoenix designs - that way the Project Phoenix fluff doesn't have to change). I love what they did with the Primitive SHD
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #65 on: 20 September 2012, 20:33:02 »
Wow. I'm really torn. I'm actuallly kind of fond of the Dark Age because of all its open potential. However, I really love some of the 'magic' that the First Star League was supposed to have compared to modern tech, and am kinda disappointed with the current accepted view that it has been equalled or surpassed. If I were to reset, it would be there, and put some of the power back into the ultimate technological golden era.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #66 on: 20 September 2012, 20:57:08 »
If a retcon were inevitable, and no limits on company resources are being imposed, I vote for total retcon.  Start from scratch and rewrite the timeline based on current world events... I've never been a big fan of a one world government eventuality in most settings. 

That said, my nerdrage would reach incalculable levels if a large section of my mini collection loses canonization due to a massive reshuffling of the BTU.


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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #67 on: 20 September 2012, 22:01:05 »
Hmm, thte toal rewrite or super far jump ahead is appealing to me more, but I think I'd favor the super jump ahead so the old stuff could remain official and out there for those who wanted to stick with it.

Avoid/Undo so many problems..like never really detailing where factories are, where parts are made. Just name companies with myriad productin facilities at all key transportation hubs. There, less stupid facts to keep track of that add nothing to the game except a headache when someone complains that widget X is only made on Planet Spaceball.  No need to waste the effort tracking pointless trivial details.

Cut down faction tracking. A few houses, and handful of Clans, good enough .I  can't keep up with the worings of Clan Trunkmonkey and its conflict with the Republic of Bellybutton Lint on the Periphery.

Advantage two: gut the existing number of 'Mechs and vehicles.  Redefine TRO concepts to be fewer machines, but more entries and art on variants.  Eliminates overlap, needless duplication, and shelf space bloat on the miniatures line. (But make translation rules for those who want to play old outdated antiques or retrofittedAncientTech)  go with an initial 75 to 90% reduction, then slowly build up to maybe 30 to 40% (tops) of the current size, then phase out obsolete designs in fiction for every new one brought in.

No matter when the retcon happens, it retroactively forever alters the Unseen images to new art. Old Minis are welcome at the table, but with the understanding in canon thats never how they looked, you just happen to be fielding a heavily modified or frankenmech version of the 'mech.  Stick a fork in the issue, its done, and not worth a second more discussion.

Kill Warships. Kill protomechs.  Make the strategic level of play far more palatable and common. (Not that i'm biased or anything.)  Mechs uber alles in fiction and gameplay.

Change tech bases for mechanical gameplay improvement. No cluster charts, easy to do battle point system, modify or eliminate the hit location/ ciritcal hit process to speed up damage resolution, vastly simplified construction.  Heck, I'd dump the current skill and 2d6 system for something more intuitive and flexible.  d10's/20's are ok with me.

Or just clean up the fiction and make minor improvements. I'm not unhappy now, just realizing we coudl make things better. Change will upset some, and lose some players, but meh, fear of change and losing a few customers means you never gain a wider audience and doom yourself to a dead end in the long run. Grow or die.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #68 on: 20 September 2012, 22:03:51 »
The poll basically shows it's all or nothing as a preferred option right now...Makes sense.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #69 on: 20 September 2012, 22:09:44 »
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« Last Edit: 20 September 2012, 22:12:47 by MadDogMaddux »
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #70 on: 20 September 2012, 23:28:44 »
is a retcon needed ? if so be through because once you do it and risk alienating part of the community you could end up endlessly tinkering trying to fix it.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #71 on: 21 September 2012, 02:49:15 »
I'm sure if a retcon is needed TPTB will handle it intelligently and with fan help. There are many things that could be changed. We're talking about 1000 years of "history" here. Things won't change THAT drastically.  Right Herb? Right.....?

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #72 on: 21 September 2012, 02:52:18 »
By the way. My vote went to early space flight. Really can't say why.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #73 on: 21 September 2012, 12:33:08 »

YOU CAN PRY MY MAD DOG FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!

Other than that feel free to retcon warships into unarmed jumpships, remove the unseen entirely from the game, etc.
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #74 on: 21 September 2012, 22:01:22 »
Rethinking my original desire, I still favor a retcon from the start..but its qualified.

Some aspect of any retcons should start from the ; changing certain numbers, population densities, economic facts--simply to make the desired end state more plausible.  Production dates, when certain events changed to a different time, they still happen, but just a different date or location hung on them. Changes like this probably not noticed by the majority of players.  So the default answer for when any retcon should start has to be from the very beggining.  Its deciding if and when to make the big changes (and what those shoudl be) that is the big question.



HABeas2

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #75 on: 21 September 2012, 23:38:04 »
Hello,

Rethinking my original desire, I still favor a retcon from the start..but its qualified.

Some aspect of any retcons should start from the ; changing certain numbers, population densities, economic facts--simply to make the desired end state more plausible.  Production dates, when certain events changed to a different time, they still happen, but just a different date or location hung on them. Changes like this probably not noticed by the majority of players.  So the default answer for when any retcon should start has to be from the very beggining.  Its deciding if and when to make the big changes (and what those shoudl be) that is the big question.

That's Volume 2 of this poll, already posted.

Thank you,

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FedComGirl

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #76 on: 22 September 2012, 00:57:06 »
Provisionally, I'd have to say all the way to the beginning. And then only to correct mistakes and fill in the blanks. Otherwise go back only as far as you need to. The general history of the universe shouldn't change. Specifics can be changed if there's conflicts. But they're forward ripples should be made as minimal as possible. The universe shouldn't be so drastically altered that major event don't take place and characters and tech aren't introduced.



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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #77 on: 22 September 2012, 05:18:27 »
I voted "NEVER! ... ".

Rather you may detail events we know little about and include updates in upcoming products so changing certain settings as result.
But for the past, there should only be different viewpoints of historians,  journalists , and so on.
So what you have been doing so far (as the SL era products) is ok.
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #78 on: 22 September 2012, 13:11:14 »
I'm new here, and just got back into the game, but I never cared for the Dark Age setting. It wouldn't bother me to re-write it.  As for the history of the Battletech universe, it would be a travesty to "delete" it and start over.
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #79 on: 22 September 2012, 14:02:35 »
This is interesting.  We have almost 30% of votes saying never here, yet the two categories of no retcon whatsoever on the other poll are only about 5% and 7%.


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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #80 on: 22 September 2012, 14:44:39 »
This is interesting.  We have almost 30% of votes saying never here, yet the two categories of no retcon whatsoever on the other poll are only about 5% and 7%.

That's because the second poll doesn't actually list what most people view as real retcons for all of the options.

For instance, when Fanpro changed the vehicle operation rules in the original Total Warfare, was that a retcon? I would say no. When Infernos were changed from only being used in SRM 2's vs. all standard SRM's, was that a retcon? A new edition != a retcon.

The game lives and breathes. The current era of the story lives and breathes. Those can and do change, they are tweaked bit-by-bit.

The designs do not change, the history does not change. This is where the retcons happen. Most people also do not see laying down the word of god on old conflicting information as a retcon either. If book A says B, and book C says D, then a new book E confirming B is not altering history. It is simply a clarification.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #81 on: 22 September 2012, 15:31:40 »
Voted dark age.  simply because it annoyed me- not the GAME, strangely, but how everything just fell apart.  i dunno- maybe I should have picked republic era.  but I think the universe NEEDED a cooling down period, no matter how... thin... the cause.  the Vees are damn cool, the mechs are okay from the era, it's just, other than a few great moments, the whole shattering of the universe could be re-done.

I DO like the idea of retconning out the unseen images (not the mechs), but that can be done while either changing very little / nothing / everything.  Otherwise, leave it all alone, it is what it is.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #82 on: 22 September 2012, 15:55:58 »
This is interesting.  We have almost 30% of votes saying never here, yet the two categories of no retcon whatsoever on the other poll are only about 5% and 7%.

I voted no retcon here, and minor on both points in the second poll  My reasoning is that I don't want to see a retcon, but if there is going to be one, I want minimal changes
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martian

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #83 on: 23 September 2012, 13:46:09 »
I voted NO RETCON.

Many people around say that they are okay with the shape of things. That's my opinion too.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #84 on: 24 September 2012, 07:43:33 »
Frankly, my answer depends on entirely if we're talking about a Hard Retcon or a Soft Retcon here.

If it's a soft retcon, where we go and incorporate changes to the story, but try to keep as much of the storyline in place? Heck, anywhere at all. Sometimes things need fixing and I'd rather TPTB not have their hands tied because of a fixation on canon being absolute. However...

A hard retcon though, where we start from point A and rewrite everything, ignoring what was written down previously? No no no. Thousand times no. There's fixing things, and then there's throwing it ALL out. There's a lot emotionally invested in the game and I'd rather not have it tossed aside just because. Additionally, there's always going to be that thought in my head...they changed it once, what's to keep them from doing it again. 
So I went with this choice as my default as I'd rather side with caution.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #85 on: 24 September 2012, 07:57:46 »
Hello,

As stated before, the extent of the retcon is discussed in Volume 2. They are separated for this reason:

Even a minor retcon has increasing ramifications for the various published works, potentially compounding over time. If the change is something like economics, for instance, every instance where population figures, manufacturing output, and the like will need to be examined for as many products as fall into the period in question and beyond it. If the change is made to game rules, it likewise impacts various years of sourcebook material if it's applied to a classic weapon like the medium laser versus a much latter developed weapon like the medium VSP laser.

A major retcon will actually have the same impact. For example, if the retcon is "WarShips are extinct", but the era selected is Clan Invasion and forward, we only lose the newer Inner Sphere ships and (depending on how the retcon is applies) the Clan navies...while the Star league is still that golden age when everyone fought in space and BattleMech armies were bored.

Hopefully, that clarifies.

Thank you,

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #86 on: 24 September 2012, 10:23:25 »
I personally think that a retcon isn't what the franchise needs to attract new players so much as an aesthetic overhaul.
The "reboot" would just be to make a whole new batch of 'mechs that cater to the tastes of the 2010s crowd.

I love the 1980s looks of many of the 'mechs, and think they had the right idea with being inspired by old tanks, but I recognize that many new players simply don't

The story, on the other hand, seems to be rather solid. If I were to ask for any changes at all, it would be to the gap between the end of Tukayyid and the fight against the Smoke Jaguars. that 3052-3059'ish period feels really empty and uneventful, and Operation Guerrero feels heavily downplayed and is largely ignored.

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #87 on: 24 September 2012, 13:23:07 »
Hello,

As stated before, the extent of the retcon is discussed in Volume 2. They are separated for this reason:

Even a minor retcon has increasing ramifications for the various published works, potentially compounding over time. If the change is something like economics, for instance, every instance where population figures, manufacturing output, and the like will need to be examined for as many products as fall into the period in question and beyond it. If the change is made to game rules, it likewise affects impacts various years of sourcebook material if it's applied to a classic weapon like the medium laser versus a much latter developed weapon like the medium VSP laser.

A major retcon will actually have the same effect impact. For example, if the retcon is "WarShips are extinct", but the era selected is Clan Invasion and forward, we only lose the newer Inner Sphere ships and (depending on how the retcon is applies) the Clan navies...while the Star league is still that golden age when everyone fought in space and BattleMech armies were bored.

Hopefully, that clarifies.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
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My biggest worry is simple: Every time I've seen a retcon* it's just led to more problems down the line. So many in fact that the only solution the creators found was to reset everything again. And this stuff keeps going on and on and on, rehashing the same stuff again and again.

So I think that all this retcon will do is take 25+ years of work and throw it away.

Or the Zero Hour situation: DC Comics decided that their universe was far too detailed for a new audience. There was just so much stuff. So they launched the Zero Hour storyline to clean it up and make it more accessible. Great. Except that they didn't retcon everything, and everything that wasn't retconned was said to carry through from the previous storylines. So they updated several characters/teams/settings but not all of them. This led to even more confusion, as people tried to explain how the universe/character worked, and they had to introduce two universes to do it. And as you've alluded to in the post I quoted above, you might very well have the same problem if you retcon everything. You just have thousands of pages of material you'd have to go through and change.

And you think your production schedule is tight right now? Imagine putting everything back through the wringer.


* I always thought that retcon meant something that happened in the storyline, but was never explicitly stated. For example, Primitive technology. Age of War units were always equipped with sucky armor, but because we never had stats for it, no one knew. Then we found out later during the Jihad exactly how bad the equipment was. So that, to me, is a retcon.

It seems to me that most people here are talking about a reset. Start from scratch. Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. You've got 25+ years of information to work with, and it's pretty good stuff overall. Don't make more work for yourself. You don't have to polish a piece of garbage, you've got a good system with a few flaws in it. Releasing errata and updates seems to take care of those issues as they rise.
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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #88 on: 25 September 2012, 00:12:39 »
I'd like to request an example of the scale your talking about.

I like retcons that smooth things & correct complications, not completely change them, if that makes sense.

A good retcon (to me) could go back as far as you want, while a bad retcon I wouldn't want at all.


These are my feelings as well.  I do think certain eras are more open to retconning, though.

for instance, I would most likely welcome the ancient history stuff (ie. 20-22nd centuries.)  It would be interesting if BT is the future rather than the future of the 1980s.

We have also seen some equipment introduced that is retroactively stated to have existed in previous eras published that it would be nice to see inserted into the past (WiGE vehicles for instance, they have existed all along but the only canonical examples we have are jihad era and later.)

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Re: Retcon Reset (Volume 1): Back Up HOW Much?
« Reply #89 on: 25 September 2012, 01:43:57 »
Hello,

Again, that's Volume 2's question. The scale of change and time period it occurs in are two separate concepts.

Thank you,

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