Author Topic: Shimmering Sword Art  (Read 20378 times)

Cyc

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Shimmering Sword Art
« on: 26 November 2017, 04:24:43 »
Not official (yet), but Shimmering Sword has been posting his line-art of the Classics and finally reached 'Mechs we haven't seen yet:

https://shimmering-sword.deviantart.com/art/Battletech-Rifleman-716552617
https://shimmering-sword.deviantart.com/art/Battletech-Archer-716891035
« Last Edit: 26 November 2017, 15:38:17 by Bosefius »

abou

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Re: Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #1 on: 26 November 2017, 10:05:52 »
Not official (yet), but Shimmering Sword has been posting his line-art of the Classics and finally reached 'Mechs we haven't seen yet:

https://shimmering-sword.deviantart.com/art/Battletech-Rifleman-716552617
https://shimmering-sword.deviantart.com/art/Battletech-Archer-716891035
Sick!
« Last Edit: 26 November 2017, 15:38:47 by Bosefius »

mrbooth

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #2 on: 26 November 2017, 16:38:23 »
Check out his gallery added the stinger as well.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #3 on: 26 November 2017, 17:12:20 »
Wow, very cool O0

Deadborder

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #4 on: 27 November 2017, 05:09:27 »
I love the new art

And I also hate it for certain MegaMek related reasons
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #5 on: 27 November 2017, 07:10:33 »
Always love Shimmering Swords art :) And love these Une..rese..Nu..Mechs!
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #6 on: 27 November 2017, 16:49:40 »
He posted the Phoenix Hawk today.

Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #7 on: 27 November 2017, 17:14:30 »
He posted the Phoenix Hawk today.

Oh Sweet Heavens YES!!!!
Gawd! Does that look beautiful...

:::Hopping HG gets their legal asses nailed in court:::

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #8 on: 27 November 2017, 20:40:01 »
I love how he managed to make the Ostscout look; it is heads and shoulders above the original art. Hopefully we see similar results with the rest of the Ost designs! All that said though? I really need to get my hands on that Rifleman.

Wrangler

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #9 on: 27 November 2017, 21:01:56 »
Is it wise idea to post them before their officially published?  It's bad enough that HG causing trouble preventing them from coming out. :(
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Cyc

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #10 on: 28 November 2017, 01:39:37 »
Is it wise idea to post them before their officially published?  It's bad enough that HG causing trouble preventing them from coming out. :(

I tend to agree, but he goes to great pains on DeviantArt to point out he had received permission from CGL to do so... though because they haven't been posted in a book yet is why this thread was moved by the mods to the fan-art section.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #11 on: 28 November 2017, 06:54:51 »
I tend to agree, but he goes to great pains on DeviantArt to point out he had received permission from CGL to do so... though because they haven't been posted in a book yet is why this thread was moved by the mods to the fan-art section.
If he getting permission that could possibly mean two things.  1) the images aren't canon anymore due to lawsuit, there no point of keeping them under wraps. 2) another form of advertising, since there no products coming out that would have these images included. 

I hope i am wrong with the first one. Second one would make sense since Succession War series is over, their focusing on new products further in the time line.  Combat Manual didn't sell well enough, so they won't be released in them.  Succession Wars would been perfect product for them, but law suit. *sigh*
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Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #12 on: 28 November 2017, 15:37:47 »
And...
He's posted one of the earliest 'Classics': the Marauder!

If he getting permission that could possibly mean two things.  1) the images aren't canon anymore due to lawsuit, there no point of keeping them under wraps. 2) another form of advertising, since there no products coming out that would have these images included. 

I hope i am wrong with the first one. Second one would make sense since Succession War series is over, their focusing on new products further in the time line.  Combat Manual didn't sell well enough, so they won't be released in them.  Succession Wars would been perfect product for them, but law suit. *sigh*

I'd say he got CGL's ok.
Considering he's putting up all of his 'Classic' work, including the non-Macross Unseen.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2017, 14:11:23 by Tymers Realm »

Mech42ace

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #13 on: 28 November 2017, 16:27:08 »
If he getting permission that could possibly mean two things.  1) the images aren't canon anymore due to lawsuit, there no point of keeping them under wraps. 2) another form of advertising, since there no products coming out that would have these images included. 

I hope i am wrong with the first one. Second one would make sense since Succession War series is over, their focusing on new products further in the time line.  Combat Manual didn't sell well enough, so they won't be released in them.  Succession Wars would been perfect product for them, but law suit. *sigh*
Interesting point, I'm really not one to speculate, but maybe it means CGL is optimistic about the legal fiasco. Why would they give them more ammo to use in the case otherwise?
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Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #14 on: 30 November 2017, 14:09:32 »
well apparently, he had to re-post the Marauder for some reason. So I'll have to edit the link I listed up-thread.

But now he's up loaded the Shadow Hawk!
And to be honest, I like the head design for its Classic form.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #15 on: 30 November 2017, 15:42:49 »
If he getting permission that could possibly mean two things.  1) the images aren't canon anymore due to lawsuit, there no point of keeping them under wraps. 2) another form of advertising, since there no products coming out that would have these images included. 

I hope i am wrong with the first one. Second one would make sense since Succession War series is over, their focusing on new products further in the time line.  Combat Manual didn't sell well enough, so they won't be released in them.  Succession Wars would been perfect product for them, but law suit. *sigh*
so no 3rd or 4th SW Historicals?

Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #16 on: 30 November 2017, 16:02:09 »
so no 3rd or 4th SW Historicals?

I think Wrangler ment TRO: Succession Wars, in this case. Because of the HG trolling, the Macross-inspired Classics were left out. Maybe when everything goes against HG, we can see a TRO: SW revised?

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #17 on: 30 November 2017, 16:18:21 »
but all of those titles have used the new CGI-ish art style (in the case of the 2 historical's, the TRO sections)... unless we're gonna get different designs for a hypothetical 3rd & 4th SW Historical?

Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #18 on: 30 November 2017, 17:52:25 »
You've got to remember that most of the Unseen/Reseen have been Classic'ed. That also includes the Dougram and Crusher Joe Mechs. Also apparently not all the Unseen/Reseen got done this time. Shimmering Sword, in a reply to a question in the Ostscout's feedback area, mentions he didn't do a Ostroc or Ostsol in this first batch of Classics.

And IIRC, there were only two Macross-Inspired Mechs between 1SW and 2SW's TROs: the Valkyrie and Wasp. Everything else was non-Macross Unseen/Reseen.

And to be clear, I believe Wrangler was talking about Technical Readout: Succession Wars, not the mini-TROs that were in 1SW & 2SW. As to if we see historicals on 3 & 4 SW, that'll depend on the new guys in charge.
 
« Last Edit: 30 November 2017, 18:07:20 by Tymers Realm »

mrbooth

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #19 on: 30 November 2017, 17:56:51 »
Still missing T Bolt, Wasp, and Valkyrie. Would also love to see the Crusader and Madarauder II if he is going to release in seen images.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #20 on: 30 November 2017, 18:03:18 »
Think it was stated that the Mad II wasn't including in the Classic overhaul. As for the others, I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #21 on: 30 November 2017, 18:09:35 »
Well I figure he'll put up the Thunderbolt, Valkyrie, and Wasp since they've been published.

I only mentioned about no Ostroc and Ostsol since Shimmering Sword stated that himself on DA.

YingJanshi

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #22 on: 30 November 2017, 19:12:10 »
These are awesome...

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #23 on: 30 November 2017, 20:44:20 »
I only mentioned about no Ostroc and Ostsol since Shimmering Sword stated that himself on DA.

That's disappointing to read. I had hoped to see the whole line revitalized! I always thought they needed the most work out of any of the unseen/reseen designs.

Wrangler

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #24 on: 30 November 2017, 21:21:19 »
Maybe it was funded/authorized yet.
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Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #25 on: 30 November 2017, 22:07:15 »
That's disappointing to read. I had hoped to see the whole line revitalized! I always thought they needed the most work out of any of the unseen/reseen designs.

Well here's his actual reply:
Quote
Maybe some day I'll hit the others, but understandably, the osts are of rather low priority.
It isn't a definitive 'no', just a 'not right now'.

Considering, IIRC, the sculpt for the Catapult that's gonna be in the GoAC box is gonna be a new visual redesign in line with the Unseen/Reseen Classics. That tells me that more than just the Unseen/Reseen are getting this visual overhaul. What Shimmering Sword is putting up could be round 1...

pensiveswetness

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #26 on: 01 December 2017, 00:24:58 »
why mess with the Catapult? The latest mini is FINE as is...?

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #27 on: 01 December 2017, 12:25:56 »
why mess with the Catapult? The latest mini is FINE as is...?
To bring it on the same level.
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Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #28 on: 01 December 2017, 15:55:42 »
Well...
The Thunderbolt is up!

I do have to admit, I think Shimmering Sword nailed it with all the Dougram-Inspired Classics so far. It'll be interesting to see what he does with the quads.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #29 on: 01 December 2017, 17:21:36 »
why mess with the Catapult? The latest mini is FINE as is...?

It's fine for 1985, and those of us who are used to it. It isn't fine for current standards, especially for potential new customers who may be discovering BattleTech through the video games.

Well...
The Thunderbolt is up!

I do have to admit, I think Shimmering Sword nailed it with all the Dougram-Inspired Classics so far. It'll be interesting to see what he does with the quads.

So what's left? Wasp, Valkyrie, Scorpion, Goliath, and Longbow, with the Osts, LAMs, and Marauder II later?
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #30 on: 01 December 2017, 17:27:12 »
Don't forget the Crusader.

ColBosch

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #31 on: 01 December 2017, 17:42:59 »
Don't forget the Crusader.

I always forget the Crusader.
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Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #32 on: 01 December 2017, 18:47:45 »
The Valkyrie and Wasp should by up soon.
Once they're up, that's all of the Classics we know of, right?

mrbooth

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #33 on: 01 December 2017, 20:27:16 »
I always forget the Crusader.

While never a fan of the design I really want to see the new look.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #34 on: 01 December 2017, 20:41:21 »
Wasp and Valkyrie have been shown in the books but aren't yet on Shimmy's site.  No MAD II was made, and the Crud was never finished.  Not sure what the status is on that one.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #35 on: 02 December 2017, 05:28:56 »
It's fine for 1985, and those of us who are used to it. It isn't fine for current standards, especially for potential new customers who may be discovering BattleTech through the video games.

So what's left? Wasp, Valkyrie, Scorpion, Goliath, and Longbow, with the Osts, LAMs, and Marauder II later?
And the Crusader.

But as far as i know, only the Wasp and Valkyrie are getting the redesigns from the ones you listed.  :'(

Scorpion's my favorite mech and i'm kinda bummed out that she didn't make the cut

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #36 on: 02 December 2017, 15:30:51 »
why mess with the Catapult? The latest mini is FINE as is...?



A pic of the new Catapult (not mine), in case that helps!

ColBosch

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #37 on: 02 December 2017, 15:54:15 »
See, that looks like a heavy 'Mech.
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Bren

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #38 on: 03 December 2017, 16:54:10 »
Last two up.

No Crusader :/

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #39 on: 03 December 2017, 17:18:01 »
Last two up.

No Crusader :/

Shimmering Sword said that the Crusader's art hadn't been finished/finalised before the lawsuit put thigns on hold.
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Juodas Varnas

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #40 on: 03 December 2017, 17:18:29 »
Last two up.

No Crusader :/
I remember Shimmy mentioning that he had made a WIP for the Crusader redesign, but it will probably never be posted.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #41 on: 03 December 2017, 21:16:19 »
Missed that myself. Shame, I was wondering how that would have turned out.

Oh well, just have to wait a little longer (yes, I'm staying positive)
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #42 on: 03 December 2017, 22:07:53 »
There is a thread in General Discussion about the lawsuit.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #43 on: 06 December 2017, 08:28:37 »
why mess with the Catapult? The latest mini is FINE as is...?

The Catapult mini looked like a young cat, it was all leg, no body.  It was a Mech in dire need of a re-draw and re-sculpt.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #44 on: 06 December 2017, 13:23:37 »
Aesthetics of the Catapult is a matter of taste, though I remember most post regarding the plastic Cat was regarding scale rather than looks.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #45 on: 06 December 2017, 13:39:59 »
Just in regards to the pic above, it doesn't look too bad at all.
This redesign looks to mainly beef up the legs. Which was a PITA with the old Ral Partha minis, at least.
I'd love to see new line art matching this redesign.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #46 on: 06 December 2017, 16:52:08 »
Aesthetics of the Catapult is a matter of taste, though I remember most post regarding the plastic Cat was regarding scale rather than looks.

that plastic Catapult, when it was made, was probably modelled after this http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/0e/Catapult_Colour.jpg?timestamp=20100405193710 pic, which i think the artist did up, probably to make that reference to the Mad Cat, make just a bit more sense than previously. Personally, I've never used that particular Catapult in play until i needed a proxy for a Viking recently... i don't even recall what box set or compilation plastic mini set that plastic cat came from. Can someone remind us of where it came from?

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #47 on: 06 December 2017, 18:43:38 »
The "Fatapult" was from the old PlasTech boxed set; that image was from the cover. It predates the Mad Cat.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #48 on: 07 December 2017, 20:17:59 »
I wish i remember how i got the mini's (from that set) that i have. I have 1 Fatlas (that i am tempted to repaint once again), the Fatapult, and Two Trebs and 'Backs (one that i mod'd with a missile cap from a H-1 Copter Rocket Launcher) and a lone Locust... I know i got them in the late 90's as i didn't get into the game itself until 1995 time frame. Thank you, I'm gonna forever use that moniker for those two, mate :D

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #49 on: 16 December 2017, 17:31:37 »
Is there s crusader? I don't see one. Am I missing it?

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #50 on: 16 December 2017, 17:32:46 »
Shimmering Sword said that the Crusader's art hadn't been finished/finalised before the lawsuit put thigns on hold.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #51 on: 19 December 2017, 07:53:30 »
I liked most of them, but I hate the locust and ostscout. The strength of the Nuseen; when they are at their best has been when they give you back the feel of the originals.

The Locust and the Ostscout fail to do that because they are basically fresh start designs.

I see what they are thinking providing backwards compatibility with the PP reseens...but most of those were crap IMO and shouldn't be touched with a 10ft pole.

Nothing bothers me more than this trend to give every new design a torso-twist though; where is the flavour? Where is the individuality?

I find the Phoenix Hawk and Wasp marginal because Shim seems to have forgotten which was supposed to have a right hand, judging by the art. The PHX might have a jettison-able weapon quirk, but Wasps haven't had right hands since TRO 3025 and it's a big distinction for the Wasp and Stinger. If that is the case with the PHX having that quirk though; why not have given the locust the no torso twist quirk?

All in all, I really liked most of these; the trooper mechs are especially well done, though my favourite is the Marauder. Let's see if we ever get it now, eh?

Of the ones I don't like, it's not going to send me into a rage to see them on the table, but nothing will and frankly, none of the ones I hate here rise to the level of pointless insult that is the new art for the Flea, which I honestly hope they never waste pewter on.

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Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #52 on: 19 December 2017, 08:37:26 »
The thing with the Wasp, and Shim even mentions this in the comments, is even going back to the original record sheets, it has a hand actuator on the right arm. Is it a good thing? Maybe, maybe not.

Overall, I think Shim did a rather good job for this, in essence, first round of Classic redesigns. He especially nailed it with the Dougram-inspired Classics, Beemer not with standing.
Now if we can see new line art for the Awesome, Catapult, and Commando to match what'll be included in the GoAC box...

Juodas Varnas

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #53 on: 19 December 2017, 09:23:12 »
I liked most of them, but I hate the locust and ostscout. The strength of the Nuseen; when they are at their best has been when they give you back the feel of the originals.

The Locust and the Ostscout fail to do that because they are basically fresh start designs.

I see what they are thinking providing backwards compatibility with the PP reseens...but most of those were crap IMO and shouldn't be touched with a 10ft pole.

Nothing bothers me more than this trend to give every new design a torso-twist though; where is the flavour? Where is the individuality?

I find the Phoenix Hawk and Wasp marginal because Shim seems to have forgotten which was supposed to have a right hand, judging by the art. The PHX might have a jettison-able weapon quirk, but Wasps haven't had right hands since TRO 3025 and it's a big distinction for the Wasp and Stinger. If that is the case with the PHX having that quirk though; why not have given the locust the no torso twist quirk?

All in all, I really liked most of these; the trooper mechs are especially well done, though my favourite is the Marauder. Let's see if we ever get it now, eh?

Of the ones I don't like, it's not going to send me into a rage to see them on the table, but nothing will and frankly, none of the ones I hate here rise to the level of pointless insult that is the new art for the Flea, which I honestly hope they never waste pewter on.
Shimmy's Phoenix Hawk DOES have a RA hand (it's just the angle of the lineart obscures it, you can see the finger sticking out in Spooky's art though).

Also, the new Ostscout and Locust are GLORIOUS! And i totally don't understand the vitriol against the Flea, which is based on the MW4 appearance (and it has actually been given a model already, IIRC).
« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 09:27:04 by Juodas Varnas »

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #54 on: 19 December 2017, 10:06:49 »
Shimmy's Phoenix Hawk DOES have a RA hand (it's just the angle of the lineart obscures it, you can see the finger sticking out in Spooky's art though).

Also, the new Ostscout and Locust are GLORIOUS! And i totally don't understand the vitriol against the Flea, which is based on the MW4 appearance (and it has actually been given a model already, IIRC).


Thanks for the PHX pic, I'd have gone the other way on the wasp, but whatever.

We'll agree to disagree on that one, I think my position is pretty consistent and it follows through to the flea; it doesn't look like a flea; the flea we've been using literally since the first minis. Why? Why change it? The Bombardier is of similar vintage and the new mini looks great! Mostly because it looks like the original, it's just done better.

But, okay; MW4, sure sure. And I noticed the Templar III as well. But then, okay; where is the MW4 Fafnir?

If you are going to do that to two perfectly good and IMO: Better than perfectly good designs. Why not the Fafnir? At the same time, retire of one of the most problematic moulds IWM has.
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These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
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marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #55 on: 19 December 2017, 11:57:40 »
The original Flea is a small box on legs, its as asthetically pleasing as a box on a small pair of legs.  The Ostscout, the original Ostscout looked like it would spear itself with its leg if it thought about moving because the hip joint would snap under the stress of a 30+ ton machine running at 129kph on a joint that looked as solid and stable as a paper mache dinghy in a Atlantic storm. 

Yes the original art is iconic, but a lot of it that wasn't the Macross unseens was so bad.  Oh and the Atlas, that was fine.  The rest were either incredibly samey, or looked as flimsy as a soggy bit of cardboard.  Blocky messes of I AM A ROBOT FROM THE FUTURE!!! as envisaged by someone from the 1940's or ovoids with limbs held on with hopes, wishes and magnets.  The Banshee had sunglasses, the Flea's body is literally a cube, its a trumph of minimalism and is boring as all hell.  Shimmering Swords art is a VAST improvement over the original ones because it looks like A.  Something that could be made by the hands of Man.  B.  Something that won't fly apart if it twists its torso too quickly. 

Yes they are nostalgic, and we all like our nostalgia, I get that a lot from my parents, talking about the good old days of their youth, IE the late 40s to 50's.  You know, when rationing was still in full effect, when the UK was bankrupt and smog killed people.  Good old days apparently.  And I get it too! My first introduction to B-tech was the original 3025 book with the unseen in it and the 14 year old me (in 1994) thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.  But art has evolved, the designs have grown and save for a few shaky starts with some TROs (3058 and 3060  being problematic in my mind here) the art has gotten better.  Instead of having lines coming out of every weld and seam in the Mech we've gotten detail. Instead of boxes or angry eggs, we got sleeker, more potent and dangerous looking designs than 3025 could ever dream of.  The past is great, but we can't cling to it.

Yes the original art is iconic, but we can't cling to 'its a box with legs with lines coming out of absolutely everywhere.' forever.  Otherwise we don't evolve, imagine if any artist looked back to Cave paintings and said "We can never exceed this glory!"  In terms of detail, attention to being actually able to work and be something that looks like it would  work. Shimmering Sword, Plog and David White's art is the Mona Lisa, the statue of David and something by Vivaldi comparied to the original 3025 cave paintings.
« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 12:12:53 by marauder648 »
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #56 on: 19 December 2017, 12:30:42 »
I agree with marauder648 here. Evolve or die.
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marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #57 on: 19 December 2017, 12:55:19 »
Thank you, I understand the love and respect for the original art.  But there's two problems.

1)  Its not ours, especially the Dougram/Macross stuff.
2)  Anything that wasn't Macross/Dougram is just aweful.
3)  Okay, 3 problems, people now days expect more.  They want stuff to look flashier, to be more detailed and the like. Unless they are really into minimalizim/Brutalism designs.  And if we want this hobby to survive and to grow, then art from the 80's is not going to cut it.  The asthetic and design, yes, but looking at TRO3025 and saying "all of this is perfection" will help kill Battletech. 

Imagine if the MWO folks produced their Mechs that looked perfectly like the 3025 stuff. A collection of boxes and eggs with haphazardly glued on limbs and said "Behold the future." people would think they were high.  It just don't look good. Not by todays standards and by what people want and expect.

And lets be utterly honest with ourselves here.  This poorman's rip off of an AT-ST



Is not interesting to look at, its not in any way shape or form dynamic, it does not speak of the setting, of it being advanced technology. Its a  small rectangle on gimpy looking legs with wee lil feet with 'toes' that look like flippers. 

Where as ths



Is immediately visually more interesting to look at, you can see its weapons, see the joins and go 'yes, I can see how this would move', you can see things like storage bins for its pilot, little sensor parts etc.  Its FAR more eye catching than "I AM BOX! IMPRESSIVE AM I NOT!!" of the original one.  And this is before it goes off to collect sea greens from the sea. 



Walking rectangle with sunglasses. or "Yo dawg, heard yo like body pannel lines so I put body pannel lines on yo body pannels"

VS



Something actually imposing looking.



When I move what part of my leg will break? Hip, ankle, knee? And how DO I walk with this swivel knee..do I move like a man with his leg in cast?

VS



Hi I'm a Scorpion, no I won't make killing you gentle.






« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 13:03:47 by marauder648 »
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ColBosch

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #58 on: 19 December 2017, 13:00:59 »
Well, the original Scorpion is Unseen...
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Juodas Varnas

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #59 on: 19 December 2017, 13:03:37 »
Well, the original Scorpion is Unseen...
And it's one of the sexiest designs in BT!

(Yes, i do realize this gif is from Dougram, but that's also where a lot of BT's mechs come from, from the Wolverines and Shadowhawks to the Scorpions and Goliaths)
« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 13:05:54 by Juodas Varnas »

marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #60 on: 19 December 2017, 13:07:15 »
And it's one of the sexiest designs in BT!

*pats on the shoulder whilst calling for the blokes with the nice white coats*

I'll agree, the later re-working was (the original Phoenix design was not however) but the original...ugh...I mean..how does it even move, why does it hold itself so high off the ground with the big SHOOT ME belly.  Looking at its leg joints it must move like if you held your arm out at your side, bent your elbow so your arm was pointed down and then just waggled back and forth.  That would look..okay, in a TV shot thats 30+ years old.  But you try selling that to todays market and they'd call it cheap, lazy and rubbish.

And ooh! Never seen that gif before :) So thats how it would move...intersting but still...well...mmnngh....special I guess..?
« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 13:09:42 by marauder648 »
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Juodas Varnas

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #61 on: 19 December 2017, 13:13:49 »
*pats on the shoulder whilst calling for the blokes with the nice white coats*

I'll agree, the later re-working was (the original Phoenix design was not however) but the original...ugh...I mean..how does it even move, why does it hold itself so high off the ground with the big SHOOT ME belly.  Looking at its leg joints it must move like if you held your arm out at your side, bent your elbow so your arm was pointed down and then just waggled back and forth.  That would look..okay, in a TV shot thats 30+ years old.  But you try selling that to todays market and they'd call it cheap, lazy and rubbish.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #62 on: 19 December 2017, 13:50:55 »
As a bit of a new comer to Battletech I like the older sculpts myself, unseen included. They aesthetically fit the time period they were made in (in-universe that is) and they provide a nice artistic contrast between newer sculpts from later periods in Battletech. (Especially if you're playing some sort of Clan Invasion scenario and you use MWO derived miniatures for the Clans and older IWM sculpts for the Inner Sphere)

Although, some of these nuseen sculpts aesthetically fit well enough into the succession wars/star league time period that I'd be willing to use them. Unfortunately, as I'm finding out with the new shadow hawk sculpt, they don't scale very well with the older stuff (It's not much shorter than the old Banshee miniature).
« Last Edit: 19 December 2017, 14:00:52 by Dakkon »

beachhead1985

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #63 on: 21 December 2017, 23:12:32 »


Well, for the record? This is what I see when I look at my Flea minis.

I actually think it looks more solid and robust than a lot of other light mechs; which I like. While at the same time, it doesn't have as many shot-traps as it could have. It looks over-gunned and simplistic. And like doing more than about 90kph is asking too much of it.

And we own the Flea, so why not?

I get that there is a lot invested in the current art flux and frankly; so far I'm about as happy as I realistically could be with the nuseen stuff. There are a few I haven't seen yet that I remain emotionally invested in (Goliath, for instance) but I was never going to like all of them unless each mech went though the kind of open-forum art critique we see in the fan funding threads for the projects we put through there. How hard is that without base art to work from? No clue; not an artistic bone in my body.

There's a lot of good points here, but I have few of my own as well.

1. Don't chase realism too far. At the end of that path lies ground pressure and the sure and certain knowledge that "Realistic" Mechs wouldn't look remotely like any of ours do. Frankly; I think the 3085 Scorpion---which I like---is possibly the most realistic mech I've ever seen in BT.
2. We shouldn't chase fads. Fads change and we cannot afford, nor should we seek to change the art style of the line with Hollywood fashions. Be a Star Wars; not a Star Trek. IMO; we're better off with a distinct art style we can plant the flag of the franchise on. Should we make that our hill to die on? No. That would be the customization and building rules, because while every single IP has their own art style, changing or not; none have the level of personalization that the BTU does.
3. It frankly doesn't matter what the mechs look like. What matters is the story. That is what needs to evolve and grow if the franchise is to survive.

I know a lot of people are excited for new art; I am too, to a point and yes; I have a price: give me a Centurion that doesn't look like it escaped from the EXTREME 90s or Garbage Pail Kids and I'll come around considerably (and I *think* that's coming). But the idea that we are one Technical Readout from paradise is madness and I say that as a guy who really wants to see Golden Century and some more Succession Wars XTROs. The look of any one given mech or even those of a given era is not driving new players away; that's silly. I've brought four people into this game based on the old art alone and they all left for the same reason; can't find the stuff in stores and can't find people to play. New art won't change that.

Be excited for that, by all means. But the war is getting the stuff in production, getting the stores to carry it and getting enough of it made and on an ongoing basis that the new bloods can get their hands on it, after the pre-orders and quick grabs from us old guys buy up the initial stock.

Shim has done some great work here; objectively it is awesome art. However I feel about one or two or more models doesn't matter much; I'll never have to guess which side of the head is the face like I did with 3025, so it is objectively better art. And I'm not going to not buy a boxed set because it has a locust or an Ostscout in it. That Flea? We can agree to disagree.

I'm not real swayed by the realism arguments anyways. These mechs; the unseen and getting them back in a current form we can be proud of is more about *beating* HG than anything else for me. Realism arguments in BT begin and end for me with things like the suspension of the Bulwark and the proliferation of huge, exposed 90s Gatling guns, Little-David-Calibre guns and ammo feeds that we see in much of the Dark Age stuff. Once that's a feature in the universe...the form and substance of realism is dead to me; we already know what we are once we bring that into the main canon, now we're negotiating so far as I'm concerned and the price is very low indeed.

So, like the hip joints on a Ostscout or Scorpion being too spindly? Meh, okay; you are right, but now what? So what? The next time a new, forward of 3150 TRO comes out, there will be a whole lot more dark age stuff in it; will I be hearing the same arguments then? Maybe I will. But likely not, because many players either got into the game through MWDA or just liked it and those models hold an emotional resonance for them that I will never feel. Ditto the new MWO/MW5/BTPC crowd, will feel the same way. Just like I feel about the mechs I got to know first through the Crescent Hawk's Revenge manual. However; give me a Dark Age art retcon and then I'd be willing to sit down and have some real talk about realism in BT art going forward. Absent that; it's whatever milks your Guernsey.

What I'm getting at is that for all it's logical weight, and while I tend to enjoy it as well in my own way; arguing from realism doesn't hit home for me in BT as it should, when it comes to art. The points are valid, but equally so my criticism, because it comes down to matters of taste. Making me happy with new art is going to mean having something new that looks like a better version of the older art. Not all-new art. Sorry. But again; I've done well here by Shim's art. Couple I love, couple I hate, one that just bugs me and the rest I'm happy with. And all of it within the broad boarders of BT art and none of it source-suspect in any way. It's ours and it's obviously ours.

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SteelRaven

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #64 on: 22 December 2017, 00:35:30 »
It's a qestion of taste.

I still have a Tactic's Macross Tomahawk as my Warhammer proxy (because Shoji Kawamori's designs are awesome) but I love the new stuff. I was never a big fan of the original Wolverine's looks but I love the new one. We already have multiple versions of the Catapult and Awesome, looking forward to including these to my future games.   
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ColBosch

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #65 on: 22 December 2017, 05:10:37 »
After thirty years, I really don't care what other people like anymore. I'm tired as hell of people trying to justify their rose-tinted glasses. If you'd rather BattleTech still looks awful, even at the cost of modern sales, then I don't even know what to say anymore.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #66 on: 22 December 2017, 12:01:46 »
Agreed, in order to stay relavent, BT needs art that represents a modern era, especially if we're talking the most popular era. Besides, they have confirmed that this new art will not replace the old. These designs are just representations created by a different artist with their style.
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ColBosch

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #67 on: 22 December 2017, 13:01:07 »
That did come out harsher than I intended, and I apologize. It's been a rough week. Hell, it's been a rough year, and I'm glad to see it go.

See, I have to come clean: despite being a fan of BattleTech for thirty years, I never liked the early art. Some individual pieces are fantastic, like the classic Warhammer cover, but for most it's clear that FASA just didn't have the money to get solid artists. When I compare the early BT stuff to other games out in the late 80s and early 90s it always comes up lacking. Dungeons and Dragons had gorgeous painted covers and lovingly inked interiors. Warhammer 40,000 had its mix of flash and grit, steely-jawed Imperial Guardsmen and hulking Chaos Marines. Even Traveller had left its early rough sketches behind, with T4's jaw-dropping airbrushed starships and lush alien worlds.

FASA did get better in its last few years, and as BattleTech's stewardship passed to FanPro and then Catalyst, the overall quality of the art has greatly risen. The current stable of artists is absolutely fantastic. However, whenever they had to depict an older machine, they were hamstrung in having to adhere closely to a frankly obsolete design aesthetic...or, more accurately, a lack thereof. Now there is a consistent motif among the redesigns, and it really ties the line better together. I compare the new Locust and Flea and they really feel like they're part of the same universe. I can see them as competitors for their battlefield role. The same goes for the new looks of the 55-ton trio, and so on.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #68 on: 22 December 2017, 15:14:28 »
Frankly; I think the 3085 Scorpion---which I like---is possibly the most realistic mech I've ever seen in BT.

Now that you mention it, it kind of does have a grounded and realistic design. Low profile, sloped hull, smoke (or chaff?) launchers, etc.

I initially glossed over the Scorpion because of it's aesthetic, but I kind of like it a little more now because it is a more realistic approach to mech design. The arrangement the legs have still bothers me though, it's kind of hard to see how it moves so quickly for its tonnage.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #69 on: 24 December 2017, 00:34:51 »
The Scorpion does look like the love child of the STRV 103 and the John Deer Timberjack.
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #70 on: 24 December 2017, 00:42:35 »
I'd like see 3085 reseen version of the scorpion made into mini.
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Domi1981

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #71 on: 29 December 2017, 08:51:56 »
I´m done with Plog´s artworks. The amount unnecessary feeling lines and protruding extensions in too much. It always makes me question wether he wants to draw for Warhammer 40k or Power Rangers and the endresult looks like some bad 80´s action figures. Shimmering Swords is galaxies beyond that. He has adapted a functional yet modern looking artstile that we usually see in series like the Expanse (https://shimmering-sword.deviantart.com/gallery/). Everything has its purpose and seems to work.
He does this:

The armor panels look like they can be mended in case they are damaged. They encase and protect. Servos and shafts are well encased. And I immediately recognized what mech it is. The overall artwork works in harmony with his other designs. Its a credible way to depict tanks on legs. I recognize the engineering composition of all joints allthough he adopted the blocking ankle joints of Loose.
Plog goes:

This looks like abstract art. Why are vital activators and shafts unprotected? Why the awkward shoulders and those 60´s "I Am A RoBOT..BRrRzZz" arms and legs? The torso lokks like a kitchen aid glued to a whatever the hell this is.

marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #72 on: 29 December 2017, 09:46:28 »
Actually with that old Daimyo there, Plog basically updated the original design drawn by someone else.



And lets be honest, that art there isn't very good. And thats the polite version.

Is the original art and for the revised TRO they used him to draw the art, but they had to be based on the original designs (and models) so could not re-interpret them.

As an example. Original Komodo



one for the revised TRO
« Last Edit: 29 December 2017, 10:06:01 by marauder648 »
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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #73 on: 29 December 2017, 10:47:13 »
FAir point. I just went trough his gallery and picked one randomly. My criticism goes for all his designs but a few exceptions. there is just too much going on. Furthermore it doesn´t help the sculptors. Granted they are all very capable but the size of the usual many limits any detailing. Look for example at the galleries of Chris Daranouvong and Justin Nelson. They are very good as well. I wonder in what way these artists communicate with each other to allign any artwork patterns or if each of them sticks to himself. In the past there was just too much arbitrariness in the overall lineup of designs. Its okay that Starleague has another design language than other eras but the designs are all over the place. I´m just strictly speaking for myself but I wish we could tell mechs from various houses/Clans apart. Nothing silly, but something that helped you to tell a Mercedes apart from a Mitsubishi. They tried this with the WoB mechs. But these were just looking like something out of a happy meal. (And yes I know its not from Plog, but I talk about WoB designs now)


Makes me think of

Wrangler

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #74 on: 29 December 2017, 12:48:02 »
At least they left out wrecking balls that was in the film off the toy...
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JPArbiter

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #75 on: 03 January 2018, 00:54:03 »
Change of subject, is there a word on the remaining “safe” nuseens, namely the ostsol, ostroc, scorpion, and goliath.
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marauder648

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #76 on: 03 January 2018, 04:41:48 »
I'm gonna hazard a guess and say 'wait and see', i'd not be surprised if they were done but we're waiting the outcome of the legal shenanigans.
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JPArbiter

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #77 on: 03 January 2018, 18:04:25 »
Which is odd, cause those designs are safe from any and all legal pressures, should be able to join the box sets
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Deadborder

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #78 on: 03 January 2018, 20:18:10 »
IIRC, the artist said they hadn't done designs for the Ostroc, Ostsol, Goliath or Scorpion
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Kidd

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #79 on: 03 January 2018, 22:01:48 »
@Domi1981 - Plog did a good job of modernising the, shall we say, dated original art while still keeping quite closely to the old designs. He made it seem like the designs stayed the same, as if his art was just an in-universe clearer picture of the old... and that's something to applaud.

Whereas the Reseen Classics are much more extensive redesigns for reasons we all know about. I think its safe to say Shimmering-Sword was given wider latitude for redesign, and he did a good job of it.

Besides, the trend at Plog's time was for lots of greebley bits and generally maintaining the stylised-beast look of 80s Battletech, whereas SS looks like he's going for a modern tank-like look. Now I love SS's work (refer avatar <---), but the thing about modern tanks is... they all look roughly the same. Take a look at the Leclerc, Ariete, Leopard 2, Challenger 2, Abrams... mix 'em all up and I doubt any casual viewer can tell they're different tanks even.

And I think that's a problem SS is heading towards. I can't quite tell, immediately, the difference between his Griffin, Wolverine, Wasp and Stinger. Or his Wasp, Valkyrie and Phoenix Hawk - they've all got Ant-Man helmets on. The Shadow Hawk too would join the crowd if not for that distinctive shoulder gun.

My 0.02.

Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #80 on: 03 January 2018, 22:46:49 »
Well let me take it the other direction...

I recently showed all 15 Classics to some friends of mine to had touched upon BT back in the day. They knew what the Unseens were and hadn't touched BT since before the Clans. They picked up on the the differences on most of them right away.

Granted there are similar elements between the Stinger/Wasp/Valkyrie/Phoenix Hawk, the Rifleman/Warhammer, and the Griffin/Shadow Hawk/Wolverine, but there are enough differences between them as well.

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #81 on: 04 January 2018, 00:00:14 »
Granted there are similar elements between the Stinger/Wasp/Valkyrie/Phoenix Hawk, the Rifleman/Warhammer, and the Griffin/Shadow Hawk/Wolverine, but there are enough differences between them as well.
Not saying he hasn't done a good job. The core designs of the Thunderbolt, Archer, Rifleman and Warhammer are very obviously distinct from the rest, I can't imagine anyone having trouble with them. For the rest, their standard variants have a few key recognition points longtime Battletech players ought to know:

The 55-ton trio are differentiated mainly by which side the Griffin and Wolverine's missile launcher is on, and the Shad's shoulder gun.

The P-hawk has unique shoulder jets. The Valk has a biggish inset chest missile rack.

The Stinger and Wasp however differ mainly with one having the Ant-Man head an the other having what I call the Box-head.

But these points aside... don't you think they look really alike in SS's treatment? Just various combinations of Box-head/Ant-man head, guns and missiles on generic blocky humanoid forms?

Tymers Realm

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #82 on: 04 January 2018, 05:28:57 »
But these points aside... don't you think they look really alike in SS's treatment? Just various combinations of Box-head/Ant-man head, guns and missiles on generic blocky humanoid forms?
Not really. What Shim really did was update the Unseen/Reseens to a more 'modern' ascetic.
And besides, couldn't you say the same thing about Loose's original art as well? Since for the Stinger/Valkyrie/Wasp, they are, in essence, derived from the same basic body frame. Yet, Loose was able to make each unique, but similar as well.

Juodas Varnas

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #83 on: 04 January 2018, 10:36:54 »
But these points aside... don't you think they look really alike in SS's treatment? Just various combinations of Box-head/Ant-man head, guns and missiles on generic blocky humanoid forms?
Really?
If anything, i find Shimmy's redesigns to be much more distinct from one-another than the Unseens were. Sure, some are similar like Stinger and Wasp, but they're even canonically supposed to be so similar that one of the manufacturers tried to sue the other for ripping them off (but even THEN the Stinger has a slightly more blocky appearance, while the Wasp is more streamlined looking).

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #84 on: 04 January 2018, 11:14:45 »
That is true.

But personally to me they all blur into one another after a while, I have to squint to make out the differences. I think, for example, David White could have given each Mech a little more distinction.

YMMV very much, of course.

Domi1981

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #85 on: 04 January 2018, 16:56:12 »
I think with artwork it is mostly like it is with fashion. Its also always a representation of the zeitgeist. With the Star League mechs every mech had some grills and lines that transported a certain 50´s style.



The original unseen transported the 80´s of Japan especially it reminded me of the Hondas and Nissans where you would find large & smooth surfaces disrupted only by a few lines, right angles in contrast to very shallow angles:


Imho SS really captured this essential characteristics of the original unseens when he recreated them. He understood the key elements of the Japanese source and translated them into his new artwork. The tankish look is a direct consequence of this. Instead of just looking at the the weapon loadout and preserving mere external features he understood the design language and prooved that he is able to read, adapt and refine the design language of a foreign culture and zeitgeist. That´s what makes him outstanding. To redesign a Scorpion for example many just draw a four legged mech with the key elements like the long barreled PPC and the six tube SRM and maybe the offset cockpit. But a few professional designers know that you have to understand the code of a language to speak it. Its enough for many if a foreigner uses some nouns and maybe some correct verbs to communicate, but what really clicks is correct use of grammar and phonetics as well. Its the same in design. If you have a shallow knowledge of culture (Values, norms, political & religious beliefsystems etc.) you are missing the vocabulary & code to recreate the zeitgeist of an era in your design. Artists are our most precious historians.
Take Karl Lagerfeld for example. He is so good in doing what he does because he was born and socialized into the society strata whose fashion he later designed for. Design is society in form.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To5MtGiS34o
« Last Edit: 04 January 2018, 17:02:09 by Domi1981 »

Wildonion

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #86 on: 04 January 2018, 19:56:50 »
That was quite the excellent post, Domi!

Kidd

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #87 on: 05 January 2018, 22:42:38 »
I think with artwork it is mostly like it is with fashion. Its also always a representation of the zeitgeist. With the Star League mechs every mech had some grills and lines that transported a certain 50´s style.

The original unseen transported the 80´s of Japan especially it reminded me of the Hondas and Nissans where you would find large & smooth surfaces disrupted only by a few lines, right angles in contrast to very shallow angles:
yeah, I don't think anyone's going to dispute that.

But Battletech and in particular the Classics has always been supposed to reflect a gritty "real military hardware" look. And I think that SS's art is going for the 80s MBT tank look rather than late-00s Ipod-smooth... and that's very fitting.

IAMCLANWOLF

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #88 on: 06 January 2018, 14:19:45 »
That was quite the excellent post, Domi!

Hear! Hear!!

Domi1981

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #89 on: 07 January 2018, 09:36:43 »
That was quite the excellent post, Domi!

Oh, thank you. Finally my studies paid off ;D
Could write a book about this topic. But who would read that anyway.
Hear! Hear!!

If that wasn´t sarcasm I´m very glad to once get approved by one of my favorite artists [blank] ^-^
Anyway, I wonder what SS could do with difficult mechs like the Crab or the Cyclops who looked imho pretty ....lame? Stupid? What would he do to correct these? So far he had a go on mechs who looked pretty cool originally. But imho he, among some others would be the one to do the job.
« Last Edit: 07 January 2018, 09:38:45 by Domi1981 »

IAMCLANWOLF

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Re: Shimmering Sword Art
« Reply #90 on: 08 January 2018, 11:46:01 »
Absolutely no sarcasm at all. I thought it was as Wildonion sad-- an excellent post. Very well thought out, and written.   

 

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