Mechs that are taboo

[Precentor Scorpio]

Only the WOB Celestrial's series of omni-mechs are considered taboo after the Jihad correct?  The Whiteflame and Blueframe mechs are "socially" acceptable correct?

[Maelwys]

Not really. Most of the WoB designs got the "Bad Reputation" quirk and disappeared after the Jihad. The only ones that really remain are the ones that were designed late in the Jihad, or are sort of generic sort of Project Phoenix Mechs (so like the Osprey survives, and the 9W Marauder is updated to the 9W2).

Stuff that's iconic "WoB" disappears rather quickly. It perhaps isn't as fast or as structured as the Celestial removal, but everything seems to phase out rather quickly. (maybe too quickly considering the history of the universe and factory issues, but eh).

So while the Celestials probably got lots of press releases and are the readily recognizable design to the general public, the other designs will suffer from a similar, if not as wide-spread stigma. A farmer on a podunk world would probably recognize a Seraph, but not necessarily a Blue Flame on sight.

[Luciora]

Von Rohrs.  None seem to exist after the fall of that particular regime.

[Deadborder]

Mitchelson found that even despite post-war 'Mech shortages, they couldn't sell the Blue Flame. Nobody wanted it because of it's association with the Word. I can't imagine that the Toyama did very well either, given its name.

[Azakael]

And here I am, trying to justify keeping a salvaged Lightray, knowing it is a WoB 'Mech - despite it having no actual effect on the campaign. (Total Chaos.)

[Nav_Alpha]

And here I am, trying to justify keeping a salvaged Lightray, knowing it is a WoB 'Mech - despite it having no actual effect on the campaign. (Total Chaos.)

I think salvaged Blakist tech won’t cause anyone to bat an eyelid DURING the Jihad - you’re using whatever you can find.
It’s after, when everyone has an eye towards peace and downsizing armies that you run into issues.

[Sartris]

Many WoB design are extinct by 3085, though whether they were scrapped post facto due to association with the robes or just wiped out in the fighting is often unclear

Some like the Yao Lien or Revenant (Bolla  and Purifier as well) are blatant ripoffs so even if there was a taboo, it wasn’t universal 

[Pat Payne]

I think salvaged Blakist tech won’t cause anyone to bat an eyelid DURING the Jihad - you’re using whatever you can find.
It’s after, when everyone has an eye towards peace and downsizing armies that you run into issues.

This is just it -- in real life, everybody at the end of WW2 in Europe and the Middle East who wasn't the US, UK, France or USSR (including those you would have thought would have rather pitched it in a fire than touch it) were using discarded Wehrmacht surplus, mainly because beggars can't be choosers. Once those groups had gotten on their feet and were able to do without the German surplus equipment, they discarded it for other, less unsavory-sourced, gear.

So the same for the post-Jihad world. A planet that needs to protect itself probably is not going to look askance at discarded Blakist weapons, if the alternative is being defenseless.

[Kidd]

This is just it -- in real life, everybody at the end of WW2 in Europe and the Middle East who wasn't the US, UK, France or USSR (including those you would have thought would have rather pitched it in a fire than touch it) were using discarded Wehrmacht surplus, mainly because beggars can't be choosers. Once those groups had gotten on their feet and were able to do without the German surplus equipment, they discarded it for other, less unsavory-sourced, gear.

the Wehrmacht built a lot of excellent gear. There was a US infantry division, I forget which, that captured and used so many German vehicles they moved as fast as a mechanised unit. I think it was obsolescence more than the Nazi reputation of the equipment that resulted in its gradual disuse. That which was not obsoleted remained in use - the MG-42 is still basically in service with the Bundeswehr and a couple European nations in its more updated form.




and of course... ;D

[pensiveswetness]

it helps to look at a IS map when you think about the question: What is the unit? Where was it built during the Jihad? Who owns the planet post Jihad? Answer those questions and you might get most of your answers...

[Deadborder]

The other thing to remember is that a lot of the WoB designs had relatively short production runs. Compared to many 'Mechs that were in production for centuries, especially during the Star League, many WoB designs are only in production for twenty-odd years at best and some (Celestials) for a lot less then that.

[glitterboy2098]

given the number of designs with celestial like looks that were produced immediately after the Jihad, i sometimes wonder whether you could have just given the WOB designs some vismods and gotten away with using them for awhile.

[The Eagle]

On a side note, the French Army fielded a lot of Panthers in the immediate aftermath of the war, so....yeah.  In any case, something else to remember is that a lot of the WoB's early backbone 'Mechs were built on Gibson by FWDI, and Gibson was glassed by the Regulans.  This more than anything is probably what put the kibosh on a bunch of designs because their own existed factory for replacements and spare parts literally went up in smoke.  Consider that they were in production for only a few decades and not the centuries we saw for Succession Wars-era machines, and they simply don't have the numbers to allow "survival through cannibalizing" that kept a lot of lost-factory-'Mechs operational during the Succession Wars.

[Sharpnel]

the Wehrmacht built a lot of excellent gear. There was a US infantry division, I forget which, that captured and used so many German vehicles they moved as fast as a mechanised unit. I think it was obsolescence more than the Nazi reputation of the equipment that resulted in its gradual disuse. That which was not obsoleted remained in use - the MG-42 is still basically in service with the Bundeswehr and a couple European nations in its more updated form.

It was the 83rd Infantry Division, and they were refered to as the Rag-Tag Circus during the latter stages of WW2. They even had an Me-109.

[dirty harry]

I wonder what happened to other designs, that where NOT originally WoB designs. Like Panther -14S, Zeus -10WB or the Fafnir -5WB. Especially the Fafnir is a drastic redesign (no endosteel frame, completely different weapon layout), so rebuilding it as a standard -5 would be a rather big task.

[Kidd]

Another great IRL example: the IDF made use of loads of captured Soviet-built T-54s, turning them into heavy APCs. This has continued with decommissioned Centurions and Merkavas replacing the Soviet equipment

IDF Achzarit APC, converted from T-54

[Kovax]

What happened in the aftermath of WWII was that a lot of German equipment was used briefly, and then replaced by new equipment as it became available, but the German designs had their own strengths and weaknesses that affected later development.  Some of the post-war Allied equipment shows ideas incorporated from German technology and doctrine.

An ideal example is the US's Vietnam era Squad Automatic Weapon, which is essentially a German MG-42 converted from metric to English measurement.  The SAW's poor reputation for jamming was apparently due to machining tolerances for the spent cartridge ejection port having changed during the conversion; the original never had that problem.   Also, US helmet designs gradually changed over the ensuing decades to include the extended protection to the back of the head provided by the German helmets, so modern US helmets look like a cross between WWII American and German helmets.  Good ideas tend to get reused, no matter where they came from.

The Celestials and other WoB 'Mechs may have vanished, but it can be assumed that many of their design elements and ideas will be incorporated into the next generation of Successor States designs.

[pensiveswetness]

not to mention the several 'kinda celestial-looking' units from TRO 3145 & 3150 (but that's a Real World reuse of the celestials via proxy)

[ANS Kamas P81]

This is just it -- in real life, everybody at the end of WW2 in Europe and the Middle East who wasn't the US, UK, France or USSR (including those you would have thought would have rather pitched it in a fire than touch it) were using discarded Wehrmacht surplus, mainly because beggars can't be choosers.

Kinda hard to make that point any louder than this.

[glitterboy2098]

Yeah. Israeli pilots on Avia S-199's, which were Czechoslovakian  built Messerschmidt Bf-109G's using Junkers Jumo 211 engines and props (same as the HE111 used). Had some (serious) handling problems, but were some of the best fighters Israel could get at its founding. And the irony was not lost on their pilots.

[ColBosch]

Kinda hard to make that point any louder than this.

*ColBosch likes this post*

[Empyrus]

I figure that there are few 'Mechs prohibited by taboo in the Inner Sphere.
The Celestials certainly, but that's about it.

Practicality is what will have gotten rid of most of the WoB 'Mechs from Spheroid forces. Nations tend to prefer their homegrown 'Mechs due to logistics, it is easier to keep your own stuff supplied that trying to figure out where to get parts for (pristine or not) WoB 'Mechs. Not to mention a lot of WoB 'Mechs use C3i computers which are problematic for standard Spheroid forces.
With post-Jihad peace, you get even more incentive for this. To keep your military-industrial complex functioning, you gotta get them some work. This leads to a situation where nations mothball a lot of their older equipment and whatever they may have captured, and focus on modernizing generally downsized forces using homegrown sources.
Throwing away WoB "taboo" 'Mechs is just bonus PR boost, they'd be gotten rid of anyway as this is no Successsion Wars era anymore when you couldn't afford to get rid of anything but the absolutely worst (like the Chargers).

[glitterboy2098]

I suspect that part of the reason Celestials didn't find many users after, taboo or not, is the design it self. Those built for use with VDNI didn't have cockpits useable without VDNI, as I understand it, and those with full cockpits have small cockpits, which make them tough to pilot. Combine that with a reliance on C3I and lack of new spare parts, and they would be a tricky prospect for a unit.

[Empyrus]

I'm pretty sure that something somewhere stated that Devlin Stone pushed really, really hard for scrapping all Celestials.
Hell, he probably almost got a heart attack when reports came Ghost Bears were experimenting with C3i computers.

[ColBosch]

Stone didn't, but some planets and factions decided to destroy Blakist equipment. Some stripped the machines to their frames, then destroyed the frames. Others fired the entire machines into the local star.

[Kitsune413]

Stones plan to break down mechs post jihad probably had something to do with it though.

Not just celestials. There are apparently a lot of mechs in Terra's boneyard.

[Deadborder]

I wonder what happened to other designs, that where NOT originally WoB designs. Like Panther -14S, Zeus -10WB or the Fafnir -5WB. Especially the Fafnir is a drastic redesign (no endosteel frame, completely different weapon layout), so rebuilding it as a standard -5 would be a rather big task.

I suspect many of these were discontinued in production and their lines retooled to be more conventional, less WoB-centric variants.

The -5WB Fafnir is a rare case where we explictly know a variant's fate. The Word slagged the Hesperus II Fafnir lines rather then let the Lyrans have them back.

[Caedis Animus]

Good ideas tend to get reused, no matter where they came from.

The Celestials and other WoB 'Mechs may have vanished, but it can be assumed that many of their design elements and ideas will be incorporated into the next generation of Successor States designs.

Funny enough, this is apparent in several Dark Age machines.

Examples include the Kheper, Uraeus, Tenshi, the whole of the Rhodes Project, the Viking IIC* (Yes, I know this one is kind of grasping for straws), the Revenant (Modified and still in use), the resurrected Atlas II, the Thunder Fox, and several more.

*The Viking may be considered more of a 'Comstar' design, but the IIC reboot being at the hands of a Rasalhague Dominion manufacturer is surprising, especially since the Viking was used by the Word of Blake.

[Von Jankmon]

Celestials will be taboo.

Just about the only mechs that are.  Clanners dont turn their noses up at Wolverine mechs, they just call it something else, and they are uncharcteristically reasonable in treating captured Wolverine pilots like anyone else.

As has been mntioned earlier in war, especially a desperate war you use what you have got.

Celestals will garner the stigma because you can't use them, advanced Blakist mechs have special cockpits and require correct implants to pilot.  Those arent even available to most rank and file Wobbies let alone whoever captures them.  It will be far more effort to rig a new control system and cockpit to a Celestial than it would be to crap the lot for parts.

As only a dedicated Wobbie, usually Manei Domini, or equivalent can pilot a Celestial they will earn an ever declining stigma.

[grimlock1]

Just about the only mechs that are.  Clanners dont turn their noses up at Wolverine mechs, they just call it something else, and they are uncharcteristically reasonable in treating captured Wolverine pilots like anyone else.

I thought the SOP for Wolverines was kill all warriors on sight.  Non-warrior caste Wolverines were killed or sterilized at the local commander's discretion.

Celestals will garner the stigma because you can't use them, advanced Blakist mechs have special cockpits and require correct implants to pilot.  Those arent even available to most rank and file Wobbies let alone whoever captures them.  It will be far more effort to rig a new control system and cockpit to a Celestial than it would be to crap the lot for parts.

Swapping the small cockpits out for standards will only cost a ton.  Most mechs can accomodate that for the cost of a medium laser.  In the case of a lot of WoB variants of older designs, yanking the C3i will give you that and more.

A big problem with the Celestials is the whole "can't modifying and Omnimech" thing.  Yanking the fixed C3i would break the Omniness, but could you replace a VDNI small cockpit with a regular small cockpit without letting the Omni-smoke out?