Author Topic: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG  (Read 3609 times)

Crimson Dynamo

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Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« on: 17 February 2018, 18:56:49 »
One of the more enigmatic parts of Clan Smoke Jaguar's ejection from the Inner Sphere is how, when, and where the majority of their fleet went down in the fighting. As one of the larger Clan fleets, the Jaguars had numerous (mainly lighter-tonnage) vessels running around the OZ as well as several assets back in the Homeworlds. The Homeworld assets I'm not as interested in, as they appear to have mostly been at Huntress or have since been accounted for, like the Osis' Pride and the Streaking Mist.

Outside the naval action over Luzerne, there was evidently some ferocious fighting judging by the "WarShips of a Dead Clan" section in FM:U, which details a crippled Texas BB, Essex DD, two York CVs, and two Fredasa raiders in Draconis Combine hands at the end of the campaign, all but two of which were beyond salvaging or too expensive to maintain. A Lola III was lost covering the counterattack over Matamoras. Also, an Essex was lost to the Nova Cats over Wayside V in 3058 that was later seen in DCA service, which might be tilting the salvage counts slightly. Conversely, the Combine is known to have lost two Kyushu frigates and a Kirishima cruiser (along with that likely erroneous reference to a third Tatsumaki). The ComGuard are known to have lost a Sovetskii Soyuz over Luzerne to a Jaguar frigate and destroyer, themselves crippled and lost, respectively. They also lost a Lola III somewhere. I'm not aware of any other IS WarShip losses.

Does anyone have any musings or can think of obscure references tucked away in the lore that mention substantial WarShip combat? Any thoughts on if the Nova Cat's fleet got involved in reducing Smoke Jaguar tonnage? Other than the ComGuard and the DCA, were any other IS powers known to have sent WarShips into the SJOZ (again, not to Huntress)? How do you think the ComGuard ships and DCA ships operated- separately, or mixed?

Let us discuss, trothkin.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2018, 19:08:58 by Crimson Dynamo »
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #1 on: 17 February 2018, 19:19:04 »
The Dragon Roars campaign pack has a SLDF vs Jaguars naval battle as a scenario.  This was a mixed force of a ComGuard naval escort (Sov Soy class cruiser and supporting fighters) protecting a FC troop convoy and its own organic aerospace.

Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #2 on: 21 February 2018, 18:04:59 »
The Warden Wolves likely sent the Werewolf (McKenna), Ulric Kerensky (Cameron), Full Moon (Potemkin), and maybe a Vincent as part of their forces with the Black Lion & other Vincent guarding home.  I really wish they would give a throw-away line of the Ulric Kerensky being there in some product, because that is a big trolling attempt.

Perhaps the Blue Star Irregulars sent their Fredasa, Kerensky's Blues, which would also be trolling.

Outside of the Houses the only other ones I could see sending ships would be the Wolf Dragoons.

If the League sent ships, it would be a whole task force since that is their doctrine & how it works.

One last thought . . . were the histories for all the Blakists ships laid out?  Because otherwise I could see them trying to snap up a few of the wandering cut off Jaguar warships from SL roots.
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Takiro

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #3 on: 22 February 2018, 16:01:21 »
I for one would be a big fan of seeing more detail on these space borne events which I would imagine are helped along by a massive aerospace advantage fielded by the Star League. Even if the numbers of warships was near equal I would imagine the number of fighters deployed by InnerSphere forces would dwarf the Smoke Jaguars.

grimlock1

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #4 on: 22 February 2018, 20:46:08 »
I for one would be a big fan of seeing more detail on these space borne events which I would imagine are helped along by a massive aerospace advantage fielded by the Star League. Even if the numbers of warships was near equal I would imagine the number of fighters deployed by InnerSphere forces would dwarf the Smoke Jaguars.
Caveat: What I know about BT's space combat could fill tea cup.

Don't warships have hundreds of tons of armor?  Capital scale weapons are 10x aerofighter scale.  How much threat are fighters to warships?
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #5 on: 22 February 2018, 21:00:41 »
How much threat are fighters to warships?

In many cases, fighters are The Biggest threat.

Unlike the ground combat rules, the aerospace rules have evolved greatly over BattleTech's run.  In the oldest aerospace rules WarShips were pretty much helpless vs fighters.  It's come a long way for WarShips since then, but even now with bracketing fire for naval lasers being a rule and anti-ASF defenses being common on warship designs, fighters are still the best punch for the weight in space combat. 100,000 tons of WarShip still stands no chance against 100,000 tons of ASFs.

The golden BB rule, for example, is reason enough for a WarShip to fear swarms of fighters (a nat 12 on the to-hit roll is a check for a critical hit).
« Last Edit: 22 February 2018, 21:02:27 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Wrangler

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #6 on: 22 February 2018, 21:19:04 »
Too bad some of the Naval action wasn't covered much.

The most was written in Twilight of the Clans novels.
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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #7 on: 23 February 2018, 10:27:59 »
Caveat: What I know about BT's space combat could fill tea cup.

Don't warships have hundreds of tons of armor?  Capital scale weapons are 10x aerofighter scale.  How much threat are fighters to warships?

If you to replicate a WarShip vs fighters fight without actually playing an aero game, set up a ground game with a Marauder-3D on one side and an equal BV of motorized infantry on the other. Make the mapsheet a flat plain, with all hexes paved. It's not a perfect representation by any means, but you'll get the idea fairly quick. :)
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #8 on: 23 February 2018, 10:35:49 »
If you to replicate a WarShip vs fighters fight without actually playing an aero game, set up a ground game with a Marauder-3D on one side and an equal BV of motorized infantry on the other. Make the mapsheet a flat plain, with all hexes paved. It's not a perfect representation by any means, but you'll get the idea fairly quick. :)

A 2/3 moving Gauszilla might be the better WarSnip analogue :D

Alan Grant

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #9 on: 24 February 2018, 06:12:06 »
FM: ComStar page 44 says that the ComStar Fleet lost the Sovetskii Soyuz-class Harmonius Thought (this was the ship they lost at Luzerne, depicted in the Luzerne scenario of The Dragon Roars) and the Lola-class Leander in Operation Bulldog. It also says other vessels like the Divine Wisdom (Lola II) also sustained damage.

I also feel like in one of the Twilight of the Clans novels, it has a Smoke Jag Star Colonel or Galaxy Commander portrayed who makes it back to Huntress with a force that ends up going to Huntress to contest Taskforce Serpent. But that character reflects on abandoning the Inner Sphere and the scene he/she describes is the ground forces in their dropships trying to get away amid a naval battle involving Inner Sphere warships.

Or something along those lines. I don't have that book anymore and I haven't read it in years.
« Last Edit: 24 February 2018, 06:36:50 by Alan Grant »

Alan Grant

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #10 on: 24 February 2018, 06:21:02 »
The Warden Wolves likely sent the Werewolf (McKenna), Ulric Kerensky (Cameron), Full Moon (Potemkin), and maybe a Vincent as part of their forces with the Black Lion & other Vincent guarding home.  I really wish they would give a throw-away line of the Ulric Kerensky being there in some product, because that is a big trolling attempt.

Perhaps the Blue Star Irregulars sent their Fredasa, Kerensky's Blues, which would also be trolling.

Outside of the Houses the only other ones I could see sending ships would be the Wolf Dragoons.

If the League sent ships, it would be a whole task force since that is their doctrine & how it works.

One last thought . . . were the histories for all the Blakists ships laid out?  Because otherwise I could see them trying to snap up a few of the wandering cut off Jaguar warships from SL roots.

Wolf's Dragoons had some moral problems with the whole thing and declined to participate. That's in a book somewhere. I think the problem revolved around the idea of attacking the Clan homeworlds.

In FM: U, page 105 we learn that all captured Clan warships ended up as Star League property but then "reverted" back to DC control. This suggests to me that it was DC naval forces that defeated them in the first place. Or maybe its just a byproduct of the fact that they were disabled and stranded in now-DC solar systems.  The DC scuttled some captured Clan warships. Three, the Essex Dark Claw, York Lioness and Congress FireCrest were stripped of their weapons and to be placed in dock at Dieron. The Congress never made it. It disappeared. Blakist being the most probable explanation I think. Also possible the Blakists scooped up the other docked ships later in the Jihad years.

In the aftermath of Bulldog they scuttled a Texas with a cracked KF drive after stripping it of useful parts. They also deemed a York and Congress too far gone, so they scuttled those as well. Two Fredasa class ships were in better shape but they reverted to DC control and the Combine decided not to create the infrastructure needed to support them. So they stripped/scuttled those as well.

Given all these details about captured Clan warships "reverting" to DC control, I've long held an assumption that many, if not all of them were captured by DC Admiralty forces.
« Last Edit: 24 February 2018, 06:32:52 by Alan Grant »

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #11 on: 24 February 2018, 12:29:19 »
Given all these details about captured Clan warships "reverting" to DC control, I've long held an assumption that many, if not all of them were captured by DC Admiralty forces.

Nekohono'os For Teh Win.  They came after BULLDOG, but they could well have been designed because storming Jaguar WarShips with battle armor marines worked in BULLDOG.

Still, you're probably also right in that some Jag WarShips were captured by other House/ComStar navies but simply given to the DCA to mothball/break down for scrap because there was no other feasible long term option due to their state of repair after the battle in which they were captured.

Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #12 on: 24 February 2018, 14:18:49 »
Alan Grant, I would agree that they went to DC control for various reasons . . . for one thing, IMO the Warden Wolves did not need any more warships at the time- as was proven on the ground against the 6th Jaguar Dragoons and in the Dragon Roars book they were more concerned with capturing bondsmen.  Since they were the only force to go in against the 6th Dragoons and Phelan states none of that showcase unit would make it off the world, I would assume the Wolf fleet was also present to defeat any Jaguar ships assigned to the cluster.

Its all conjecture and IMO was the easy way for TPTB to dump a bunch of warships into the sun.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Alan Grant

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #13 on: 25 February 2018, 15:00:14 »
Yeah ultimately I think it was about the writers wanting to dump some warships. They couldn't have a massive fleet of Smoke Jaguar warships surviving to go overwelm Taskforce Serpent, or the Bulldog forces that traveled to Huntress with Victor. Just enough that the Inner Sphere forces could still win.

Since they hadn't written out those assets already, FM:U became the opportunity to explain away the rest of the Smoke Jaguar fleet within the space and word count restrictions of the very over-crowded document that is FM: U.

Which is a shame. We could have gotten some more really good warship battles out of that. But Taskforce Serpent gave us some great naval battles in novel format, so I can't complain too much.
« Last Edit: 25 February 2018, 15:02:21 by Alan Grant »

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Naval Actions, Operation BULLDOG
« Reply #14 on: 11 October 2018, 18:56:40 »
Yeah ultimately I think it was about the writers wanting to dump some warships. They couldn't have a massive fleet of Smoke Jaguar warships surviving to go overwelm Taskforce Serpent, or the Bulldog forces that traveled to Huntress with Victor. Just enough that the Inner Sphere forces could still win.

Since they hadn't written out those assets already, FM:U became the opportunity to explain away the rest of the Smoke Jaguar fleet within the space and word count restrictions of the very over-crowded document that is FM: U.

Which is a shame. We could have gotten some more really good warship battles out of that. But Taskforce Serpent gave us some great naval battles in novel format, so I can't complain too much.

Correct me if I am
Wrong but didn’t the jags epitomize the general clan disdain for warships? I always got the sense that their crews were not prepared for warships combat in the same way that the IS was.

 

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