Salvaging- 'Destroyed' vs Truly Destroyed

[Colt Ward]

While playing a MM game I was wondering how some people handle certain aspects of salvage in reference to equipment being destroyed for game purposes vs truly destroyed.  We know a mech is destroyed when all IS in the CT is gone by damage.  But a limb or other location can be destroyed and whatever occupies in the crits in that location can be salvaged.  By my reading, even if equipment has been hit on all the crits it can still be salvaged from the wreckage of whatever it was mounted on.

But what about weapons that themselves explode?

I managed a long range TAC against a Regulator that got a critical against the Gauss Rifle- which exploded and took out the turret, salvageable vehicle kill.  Anything in that turret could be salvaged even though the turret lost all Internal Structure.  But the Gauss Rifle exploded (capacitors in the 'rail' or whatever) like ammo . . . and when ammo explodes it cannot be salvaged.  So should the gauss rifle b/c it was crit and blew be salvageable?

If folks do not think so I would imagine Improved Heavy Lasers of all sizes, AP Gauss and MagShots should also suffer the same fate.  I do not think King David GRs are mounted on any canon designs (though . . . should be?) but they would fall under the same provisions.

Opinions?

[Daemion]

Well, there's the caveate of locations destroyed by ammo explosions and artillery saturation fire. I do believe that a Gauss Rifle explosion counts as an ammo explosion, in that regard.

There was also one other caveate from the BMR which I'm not sure got carted forward or not: Any item which had sustained a hit to all of its critical slots was also nothing more than scrap and could not be repaired back to function.

Under the BMR, any item which did have at least one undamaged crit left in a destroyed location barring the restrictions above, could potentially be slavaged with a 2d6 role of 10+.  I've used that a lot to determine if a pilot survived head destruction - Is the cockpit salvageable? Yes? Then he's merely injured.

I do know that some people have actually combined the stipulations above as a backwards workaround to restoring Mechs and potentially vehicles from what should have been destruction status.  Was it destroyed by artillery fire or ammo explosion? No? Then with the right parts, we can put him back together. (We can make him faster. Stronger. We have the technology.)

Considering the scrounging nature of the succession wars, I'm kind of partial to the notion that you can get something working again with enough blood/sweat/tears/desire.



 

[Colt Ward]

I would agree with that last part- if it helps the story but watch out for all the problems you are buying yourself!

I thought BMR and carried forward was even if its all crit out, it does not mean the weapon/equipment is truely destroyed unless the salvage (as in remove from machine) roll failed or something like that . . . been a while since I was so detailed.

[Col Toda]

Vehicle salvage only really happens if it has CASE or nothing that explodes . If a vehicle gets an ammo crit All ammunition goes boom . With CASE all the rear armor and IS goes and the crew is stunned . The vehicle is out of action but Salvagable . I like Heavy FF armor for vehicles because with CASE because all unused armor is easily recoverable . Same thing on a fusion engine hit  .

[guardiandashi]

I personally go with a somewhat expanded definition of destroyed vs truly destroyed.

if the location was finished off by an ammo explosion (and I guess artillery) then that LOCATION is "truly destroyed" unless case is involved, and then its considered destroyed but not truly destroyed.
however, an ammo explosion in the center torso only "truly destroys" the center torso not the rest of the unit (parts may be scattered far and wide) but they can be recovered after the battle.

I will say that components in a location that is "destroyed" but not truly destroyed are "considered damaged for tactical purposes, but for salvage revert to their previous state.
What I mean by that is lets say you blow the head off a mech (destroy all internal) unless you crit the components they aren't actually (really) damaged they are just totally non functional in the sense that they are offline because of things like power disruption not stable enough structural integrity to allow them to work etc.

when salvage and repairs start, I would allow 1 roll to let a technician attempt to restore 1 IS (internal structure) point to the location in question without requiring replacement parts, if it succeeds then the location can be repaired normally, if it fails, it has to be replaced, then start restoring the components.

and even in the "truly destroyed" locations I would still consider allowing an attempt to recover things like engine gyro etc. especially if its an XL engine.  there are times when it might not make a lot of sense to repair rather than replace (engine with many crits done (6+ for instance) but pre the recovery say 3030-3050ish most house tech might still try, pirates, periphery, mercs, etc.  will always try until or unless replacement parts are available enough to make it a waste of time.

now with the exploding gauss rifle I can see arguments both ways, in fact I might error on the side of getting a chance to attempt to recover(repair it) but it definitely suffered a minimum of 1 actual crit.

[Foxx Ital]

Im lazy and just go by what MM puts in the not salvageable, which then gets cannibalized.

[SteveRestless]

I do know that some people have actually combined the stipulations above as a backwards workaround to restoring Mechs and potentially vehicles from what should have been destruction status.  Was it destroyed by artillery fire or ammo explosion? No? Then with the right parts, we can put him back together. (We can make him faster. Stronger. We have the technology.)

I mean, That WAS the rule in the BMR Era. It used to only be the savage destruction of an artillery strike or ammunition blow-out, that took out the CT, that rendered a chassis impossible to recover. Why it ever changed, I'll never know. But the rules as they stand (simple CT Destruction) are at complete odds with the notion of mechs lasting hundreds upon hundreds of years, handed down from pilot to pilot, since the star league era.

[guardiandashi]

I mean, That WAS the rule in the BMR Era. It used to only be the savage destruction of an artillery strike or ammunition blow-out, that took out the CT, that rendered a chassis impossible to recover. Why it ever changed, I'll never know. But the rules as they stand (simple CT Destruction) are at complete odds with the notion of mechs lasting hundreds upon hundreds of years, handed down from pilot to pilot, since the star league era.

which is why I was mentioning my version of destroyed vs truly destroyed

[Hythos]

While playing a MM game I was wondering how some people handle certain aspects of salvage in reference to equipment being destroyed for game purposes vs truly destroyed.  We know a mech is destroyed when all IS in the CT is gone by damage.  But a limb or other location can be destroyed and whatever occupies in the crits in that location can be salvaged.  By my reading, even if equipment has been hit on all the crits it can still be salvaged from the wreckage of whatever it was mounted on.

SO p175 is the first logical argument:

’Mechs: A ’Mech is truly destroyed when its center torso internal structure is eliminated. Some components may be salvageable, but the ’Mech itself cannot be returned to service.

This implies that any/all components have a chance for recovery & repair, including those also in the CT. Reference auto-accidents where a vehicle becomes torn asunder, and the engine/transmission remain useable, sometimes not even damaged.
For the diagnosis effort, use of a Descartes can mean figuring out what's wrong vs a mis-diagnosis and scrapping an otherwise useable piece of gear; diagnosing on an 9+ with 2x, or an 8+ means 3x more return on damaged equipment than without its use.

With Diagnosis (SO pg177), we read the distinction between crit'd and 'destroyed by location destruction':

Players can attempt to repair weapons and equipment that have received a critical hit or are in a destroyed location

and along with the above wording:

Engine: An engine that has suffered a critical hit to every location or has exploded (see Engine Explosion, p. 77, TO) is considered truly destroyed and must be replaced.

tells us that engines can be repaired even if the CT has been blown out ('Mech as a unit remains no longer useable) and even if the engine has received up to 1-crit less than its total critical-count.
(all of this assuming the Quality rating wouldn't drop below an A).
Additionally, when using Expanded Critical Hits and Damage (TO p74), or Optional Critical Hits Table (Solaris: Teh Reaches, pg51), weapons and equipment can continue to function after receiving a critical hit - so "truly destroyed", still remains variable (IE, would a weapon having received a critical hit while using the Expanded Critical Hits rule be subject to "truly destroyed" without a "Diagnosis check"; or, would the diagnosis still be required, and a failed-roll indicate that it simply burnt-out or failed after being powered off... OR - Schroedinger's equipment - If the Diagnostics roll is never made, will it always continue to work with the damaged-crit?)
(These of course, would likely also require the use of Partial Repair rules, SO pg182, while still carrying the prior effect determined by Expanded Critical Hits and/or Optional Critical Hits.)


Regarding longevity of that MW who's piloting his great-great-grandfather's Centurion, along with whose father, and every father before him had died in that same cockpit - if the CT had continued to survive by 1 point of IS, it would/could still have been repaired ;) 

[Colt Ward]

So . . . OP was about Gauss Rifles, their kin, and Improved Heavy Lasers . . . things that explode if crit, like ammo.  Unless you want to suggest I can salvage an ammo bin that is crit while ammo is in it . . .

[Hythos]

CASE doesn't say it can't be salvaged; Seems that in the end, the diagnosis to salvage & repair would be per-normal, based on crits to the weapon.

There'd only be the standard critical-chance roll per normal for damaging the internal structure after the weapon-crit explosion. The Gauss would only have any crit damaged to it (Gauss Rifle, TW p135) plus an additional chance to crit from the damaged-IS crit-chance roll... 

only mark off as destroyed the critical slot that was hit.

[Daemion]

So, if the location isn't destroyed by the Gauss Rifle's explosion, it could still be salvageable.

[Colt Ward]

Yes, but I was asking for opinions about is the Gauss Rifle or Improved Heavy Large Laser salvageable after being crit and exploding.

[Daemion]

That's what I was getting at. Unless it takes its last crit from that explosion, sounds like the rules suggest that as long as the location wasn't destroyed by that explosion, the guass and laser might be salvageable.