Why even consider monitors?

[Cryhavok101]

I have recently been getting back into Battletech after a decade+ hiatus. I have recently been reading up on various discussions about monitors, and most of them were older threads I don't really want to necro just to ask a question, so here goes:

There is an in game reason for Monitors to not be very feasible, and a ruling about them that is basically for game balance, so instead of monitors, why don't people use Space Stations with a dedicated Tug for the exact same purpose? The Tug lets it move around, and the fact that it doesn't need a K-F drive lets you throw a ton of capital armaments on it.

With "Bearings only", "Preprogrammed Waypoint" launches with a SS filled up with a ridiculous number of Capital Missiles could have an insane engagement range and be able to fill the sky with enough firepower do destroy most anything pretty easily, from pretty far outside of anything else's engagement range.

So my question is why continue worrying about Monitors if you can do that?

[Fireangel]

Did you read this thread?

It's been locked, but it's pretty recent.

[glitterboy2098]

a lot of it basically boils down to that there is a small but sometimes very vocal group in the fandom that love the idea of the jump-drive-less warship, and how the current fan rules for such let you build super powerful warships super cheap. and they don't want to admit that they don't make a lot of sense tactically, strategically, logistically, or rules wise. so they keep trying to convince people to make them official.

[Cryhavok101]

a lot of it basically boils down to that there is a small but sometimes very vocal group in the fandom that love the idea of the jump-drive-less warship, and how the current fan rules for such let you build super powerful warships super cheap. and they don't want to admit that they don't make a lot of sense tactically, strategically, logistically, or rules wise. so they keep trying to convince people to make them official.

That makes sense. Though a space station with a tug seems like it would be a loop hole to do that same thin, but within the rules, it would still be plagued by the same logistical problems, no matter how they try it, it wouldn't be worth the cost of maintaining. Warships themselves hardly are in the first place.

[glitterboy2098]

the downside of a "station with Tug" is tactical. specifically, while the tug gives the station some mobility within the theatre of the solar system it is defending, in battle the tug doesn't offer much maneuverability, and it leave a rather large hole in the station's defenses if it stays docked (the tug blocks the weapons fire, IIRC)

so while the tug would give a defensive station the ability to be moved around a solar system, in battle the station might as well be stationary. and ultimately the ability to be relocated is of little strategic use, since there are relatively few places worth defending in most solar systems (planets mainly), and even Dropships and full warships cannot move fast enough to reach an enemy jumpship jumping in or a enemy force burning towards a world if they are not already pretty much right on top of the spot they need to defend. the IR signatures of an incoming jumpship last at best minutes, and it would take days to get across the system (weeks for a station+tug set up, especialyl if the station is large enough to be useful.), and even at high G's you'd need the better part of a day's warning that a enemy force is burning towards a planet if you want to even arrive at the same time. and sustained high G's are not really an option with Tugs (too much stress on the linkup), and the crews of regular dropships and warships would not be very combat effective after several days at 2+ g's.

so while it is an interesting idea in general concept, it doesn't really work out as viable with the technology available in the battletech universe.

[Red Pins]

Meh.  Do what I do, and carry a BattleSat and Titan on a Merchant JS.  Voila, pocket warship - legal, too.

[Cryhavok101]

the downside of a "station with Tug" is tactical. specifically, while the tug gives the station some mobility within the theatre of the solar system it is defending, in battle the tug doesn't offer much maneuverability, and it leave a rather large hole in the station's defenses if it stays docked (the tug blocks the weapons fire, IIRC)

so while the tug would give a defensive station the ability to be moved around a solar system, in battle the station might as well be stationary. and ultimately the ability to be relocated is of little strategic use, since there are relatively few places worth defending in most solar systems (planets mainly), and even Dropships and full warships cannot move fast enough to reach an enemy jumpship jumping in or a enemy force burning towards a world if they are not already pretty much right on top of the spot they need to defend. the IR signatures of an incoming jumpship last at best minutes, and it would take days to get across the system (weeks for a station+tug set up, especialyl if the station is large enough to be useful.), and even at high G's you'd need the better part of a day's warning that a enemy force is burning towards a planet if you want to even arrive at the same time. and sustained high G's are not really an option with Tugs (too much stress on the linkup), and the crews of regular dropships and warships would not be very combat effective after several days at 2+ g's.

so while it is an interesting idea in general concept, it doesn't really work out as viable with the technology available in the battletech universe.

The TUG was more for dodging asteroids that would otherwise be able to take out a stationary target easily. For that matter though, a space station travels at the same speed a normal jumpship does, so if a normal jump ship can maneuver out of danger so easily, I suppose a space station wouldn't need a TUG for that. I hadn't thought of that. As I said in the OP I am only recently getting back into the battletech universe, it's been more than ten years since I was involved.

[imperator]

I just use Assault dropships.  Customs or Achilles/Avengers.  The custom range from 25k-100k.  Once sub capitol weapons come in, then they become horrific!!!

[idea weenie]

I just use Assault dropships.  Customs or Achilles/Avengers.  The custom range from 25k-100k.  Once sub capitol weapons come in, then they become horrific!!!

The fun part is that x28 or x36 Dropship cost multiplier.

But then you can have fun pricing out a combat Dropship, then creating a Warship that has the same weapons/armor (but has the expensive K-F core).  You then see which is cheaper.

[Fireangel]

The fun part is that x28 or x36 Dropship cost multiplier.

A "large shuttle" could fill the role: the size and power of an assault dropship / pocket warship without the dropship cost modifier.

Transporting them from system to system would require a large craft bay, rather than a docking collar, or a dropship capable of carrying a large craft bay or sufficiently large hold.

[SCC]

The reason that they aren't boils down to them not really fitting the strategic paradigm used in BT go read the Manticore Ascendant books and you'll see a case where they do make sense, but the short answer is that WarShips are expected to be much more mobile in BT then Monitors allow for. There are some cases where they may make some sense, Niops for example only controls a single system, so it WS not being jump-capable isn't much of a problem

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yeah, but at that point, you're talking polities too small to realistically field  a WarShip, anyway.  Niops is around 19-20 million on three marginal worlds. New St. Andrews has an even smaller populaton, if I recall.  These are nations better served by assault droppers or pocket WarShips, in no small part due to infrastructure needs.

[Archangel]

Besides Niops would go with a Starkiller planetary laser before a WarShip.  :D

[glitterboy2098]

Niops doesn't even have factories to produce the mechs they use. just small workshops making everything from scratch in small batch lots. and after the Jihad, they don't even have that any more.

i highly doubt they had the ability to build any spacecraft bigger than a smallcraft.

[Cryhavok101]

Yeah it is my impression that places like Niops only exist because no one cares to really conquer them, or because the factions around them want them to remain as a buffer.

[Archangel]

Yeah it is my impression that places like Niops only exist because no one cares to really conquer them, or because the factions around them want them to remain as a buffer.

The only part that is missing is the fact that nobody wanted to allocated the forces necessarily to invade.  By the time their neighbors became aware of them and what they had (a SL memory core), Niops had already amassed a significant military force especially for the Periphery.

[Warship]

I am on the fence about monitors.  If reasonably designed, they can add a new twist to a campaign.  I had a small Blood Spirit campaign a while back where they had a couple of new corvettes and twelve monitors built.  They were small and fast, good for raiding.  Each ship was able to carry three small monitors.  Combined with their existing fleet, their firepower was enough to break the Star Adder blockade.  This was mostly due to my opponent realizing the cost his side would pay in losing a warship was too high compared to the cost of the Spirits loss of a monitor.  The campaign ended once the Spirits had built themselves back up enough to where the Adders knew the cost to continue their war outweighed any possible benefit.  However, in true Clan fashion, they did announce in the council their true objective to bring the Blood Spirits back to true Clan ways had been achieved.   }:)

[Archangel]

Are you talking about monitors or pocket warships?   ???

[Fireangel]

Are you talking about monitors or pocket warships?   ???

Wouldn't a heavily armed large shuttle without a K-F boom be described as a "monitor"?

Unless we want to call it a "pocket monitor"...  ^-^

[glitterboy2098]

Are you talking about monitors or pocket warships?   ???

the original fan rules allowed monitors built below a certain size to be carried like dropships. it was a most unbalanced set of rules, which gave the Monitors tons of advantages and no drawbacks.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Clarification: the fan rules basically use the WarShip, rip out the KF Drive and you have the monitor. In addition to be able to dock with jumpships for FTL movement within weight restriction like DropShips as you mentioned.

[monbvol]

My biggest rub with Monitors has always been that no one has presented anything that is reasonably balanced that also adds anything you couldn't already get the same purpose out of using an already existing unit type.  It has only gotten worse since the introduction of pocket warships and subcapital weapons.

[HobbesHurlbut]

My biggest rub with Monitors has always been that no one has presented anything that is reasonably balanced that also adds anything you couldn't already get the same purpose out of using an already existing unit type.  It has only gotten worse since the introduction of pocket warships and subcapital weapons.

Yeah in Boondoggles, you have, more or less, official rules. You can build a monitor but you will never be able to move it between systems and you can build a warship for the same mass more or less that can jump on its own. Navies in history built coastal battleships that were obviously inferior to ocean going battleships for most part. Yeah coastal battleship was a thing.

[monbvol]

Even in Boondoggles it's not entirely something new that you couldn't get from an existing unit type.

[massey]

The biggest problem with monitors is that once you've got the ability to build them, you've also got the ability to build a real warship.  Yeah it's more expensive, and ton-for-ton a monitor is stronger, but money isn't the limiting factor here.  The limiting factor is the lack of orbital construction yards.  The Successor States aren't short on cash.  They can throw as much money at something as is necessary.  Their problem was the lack of large enough engines to move the ships around, and the lack of orbital shipyards to put them together.  So if you can only build X number of ships per decade, you want to make sure you get the real deal with all the cool options (like its own jump drive).

[sadlerbw]

The biggest problem with monitors is that once you've got the ability to build them, you've also got the ability to build a real warship.  Yeah it's more expensive, and ton-for-ton a monitor is stronger, but money isn't the limiting factor here.  The limiting factor is the lack of orbital construction yards.  The Successor States aren't short on cash.  They can throw as much money at something as is necessary.  Their problem was the lack of large enough engines to move the ships around, and the lack of orbital shipyards to put them together.  So if you can only build X number of ships per decade, you want to make sure you get the real deal with all the cool options (like its own jump drive).

Yep. That is my thought as well. Building a monitor would require an orbital shipyard to do it. Those aren't exactly plentiful or easy to just throw up on a whim. The cost to create a ship-yard that could build a monitor is probably many times more than the monitor its self. If a polity had access to a shipyard at pretty much any point after the fall of the Star League, it is going to be needed far, far more to build and maintain jump-capable ships than it is to build something that can't leave the system. So, the infrastructure to build large space-faring vessels of any sort is rare and over-taxed in most eras of the Inner Sphere, and the importance of interstellar travel means repair and construction of jump-capable ships is always going to be a higher priority for the few shipyards that remain. There just isn't enough 'down-time' or spare capital-scale resources to worry about in-system-only ships.

[The_Caveman]

Why bother with building a ship or a station? Find a large asteroid, move it into a position where it can control the local jump point, and equip it with hundreds of capital missile batteries. Pirate points can be dealt with by calculating their locations and then blowing up smaller asteroids in those places to create debris fields that would rip an arriving JumpShip to pieces.

[Thunder]

Why bother with building a ship or a station? Find a large asteroid, move it into a position where it can control the local jump point, and equip it with hundreds of capital missile batteries. Pirate points can be dealt with by calculating their locations and then blowing up smaller asteroids in those places to create debris fields that would rip an arriving JumpShip to pieces.

Because once you get far enough away from the star or other large masses,  all of space is a jump "Point."

The asteroid rubble defense doesn't work indefinitely because pirate points are not orbitally stable locations.  Rubble placed at that location would move into a higher non synchronice orbit, spreading out, and generally being dispersed by the planet who's presence creates the pirate point in the first place.

[Fireangel]

Why bother with building a ship or a station? Find a large asteroid, move it into a position where it can control the local jump point, and equip it with hundreds of capital missile batteries. Pirate points can be dealt with by calculating their locations and then blowing up smaller asteroids in those places to create debris fields that would rip an arriving JumpShip to pieces.

Even with extreme capital missile ranges, even a stable Lagrange point is large enough that there is no guarantee that the inbound ships will be in range of the missiles.

Most pirate points are not stable enough to hold an asteroid in position, so attitude thrusters will be needed to maintain position... thrusters that will be HUGE in order to deal with the mass of the asteroid. We're talking "McKenna's transit drive or larger" size.

As has been pointed out, beyond the polar proximity distance (the zenith/nadir jump points), all of space is one gigantic jump point; fixed defenses such as space stations can simply be avoided and bypassed.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Yeah the only reason there are any station at all at Zenith/Nadir Jump Points is as refueling stop/custom check/cargo transfer. When invaders show up the usual custom is to surrender without resisting (late succession wars/3025).