Author Topic: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, now with Protomech AV!  (Read 20567 times)

metalman42

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This intrigues me. I'm just getting into Alpha Strike, but one thing that puts me off is the fact that the point values for each unit came from an entirely different game. Just with the base deck of 90 cards you see some stuff that doesn't make any sense.

Any chance this will be adopted officially? Are the creators of AS looking into a separate point value calculation method?

Papabees

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OK. This is looking pretty good. Any chance of cutting and pasting in all into one comment so we have the run down in a single area? Then maybe we need to playtest the crap out of it and see how it feels.

iamfanboy

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This intrigues me. I'm just getting into Alpha Strike, but one thing that puts me off is the fact that the point values for each unit came from an entirely different game. Just with the base deck of 90 cards you see some stuff that doesn't make any sense.

Any chance this will be adopted officially? Are the creators of AS looking into a separate point value calculation method?
I really, really hope they are looking into it. Hell, they can HAVE this system once we get the kinks nailed out. One of the things that I like about this system is that once you get used to calculating it, it takes maybe 20-30 seconds per unit to figure out the Alpha Value.

Papabees, I'm trying to keep the updated formulae in the first post of the thread, as well as current points costs - though I haven't updated them for the Move/4 change to the formula yet, and I do have to post the list of Special Abilities. I'll get around to updating it all later today, but there's been my eBay business to attend to...

Gods. Move/4 undervalues movement just a little bit, but that's better in my honest opinion than way OVER-valuing it, because overvaluing something just leads to no one using it.

EDIT: Okay, the formula in the first post is current; I added the NARC and TAG abilities to the list of always-added stuff because if you can't figure out how to use a unit with those abilities you need your head screwed on tight.

iamfanboy

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For clarity's sake, the new point values as calculated by me are below:

Quote from: Current PV for stress testing system
Introductory Boxed Set - Succession Wars Era
COM-2D Commando - 18
SDR-5V Spider - 20
JR7-D Jenner - 22
PNT-9R Panther - 22
ASN-21 Assassin - 22
CDA-2A Cicada - 20
CLNT-2-3T Clint - 23
HER-2S Hermes II - 22
WHT-1 Whitworth - 28
VND-1R Vindicator - 29
ENF-4R Enforcer - 28
HBK-4G Hunchback - 29
TBT-5N Trebuchet - 27
DV-6M Dervish - 32
DRG-1N Dragon - 32
QKD-4D Quickdraw - 33
CPLT-C1 Catapult - 35
JM6-S JagerMech - 26
GHR-5H Grasshopper - 40
AWS-8Q Awesome - 41
ZEU-6S Zeus - 37
CP-10-Z Cyclops - 36
BNC-3E Banshee - 39
AS7-D Atlas - 53

Third Edition Boxed Set - Succession Wars Era
LCT-1V Locust: 17
STG-3R Stinger: 17
WSP-1A Wasp: 17
PXH-1 Phoenix Hawk: 27
GRF-1N Griffin: 32
SHD-2H Shadow Hawk: 31
WVR-6R Wolverine: 31
RFL-3N Rifleman: 27
CRD-3R Crusader: 33
CRD-3L Crusader: 36
TDR-5S Thunderbolt: 37
TDR-5SE Thunderbolt: 39
ARC-2R Archer: 40
WHM-6R Warhammer: 34
MAD-3R Marauder: 36
BLR-1G Battlemaster: 41

Vehicles:
Savannah Master: 17
Scorpion: 13
Maxim: 25
Pegasus: 21
Shrek PPC Carrier: 27

Infantry/Battle Armor
Jump Laser Infantry Platoon: 15
Foot Laser Infantry Platoon: 11
Elemental (AP Gauss): 19
Inner Sphere Standard BA (SRM): 14

Clan Omnimech Prime versions:
Fire Moth: 24
Mist Lynx: 23
Kit Fox: 25
Adder: 30
Viper: 31
Ice Ferret: 30
Nova: 39
Stormcrow: 39
Mad Dog: 40
Hellbringer: 38
Summoner: 43
Timber Wolf: 46
Gargoyle: 37
Warhawk: 53
Executioner: 50
Dire Wolf: 57

I shall endeavor to add in some Clan Invasion-era numbers, though frankly it's gonna be my 'best pick' rather than every single one.

Karasu

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There's been a fair bit of dicussion about points values on the Leviathans board.  There also, the idea of the points being a combination of a number of sub-totals was raised.  One thing that has been done is to look and see how the different bits that make up a units points compare.  If, say, an UrbanMech is getting more points from Movement than Offense, there's a problem somewhere.

As a side note, I'd be tempted to split the Special between the other 3 sub-totals, to make that comparison easier.

iamfanboy

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Well, the issue with splitting Special up are abilities like RCN, CMD, ECM, PRB, and other battlefield-shaping abilities. Some of 'em are clearly offensive or defensive, so it's not hard to slap them into various categories, but some fall into more 'battlefield-shaping' categories.


In playtesting news, movement is overvalued at the extreme ends - it seems to be right at the lower edges of the band, but not at the top-end. I've ran 6 Savannah Masters (one Skill 3) against three Marauder-3Rs ten times and each time the Marauders cleaned up, on average losing one MAD-3R to all six SMs. A +4 TMM is not enough to protect against one-hit-one-kill.

Another thing that reins in fast movers very adequately is short-range artillery, and there's no shortage of decent Arrow-IV carriers. The Arrow-IV variant of the Regulator is particularly good.

It's been... discouraging. My current possible solution is to split it up into range 'bands' for which there's a flat cost, such as:

0-4     = 0 AV
6-8     = 1 AV
10-12 = 2 AV
14+    = 3 AV
jump   = +1 AV

and of course, +1 for each TMM the unit can generate.

It does seem like those are the 'important' bands; anything over 14" has much the same ability to backstab/maneuver, 10-12 is better than 6-8, and 0-4 is so slow that it might as well be crippled. Using this system takes the Savannah Master from 17 to 13, which seems a lot more reasonable for a one-shot backstabber. It also moves my personal favorite Fire Moth (the C) from 21 to 17.

Sockmonkey

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The bit about a C3S only having value if someone else in the unit has a C3M makes sense to me, but once you start thinking along those lines you could argurere that the value of a lot of other stuff is also dependent on factors outside the mech itself, like the abilities of your opponent.
Blue Shield for instance, is dead weight if your enemy has no PPCs.
Now while I do think it is reasonable to draw the line for value factors at the abilities of your own forces since that's something you control, there are some things that are kind of borderline.
That's it! Challenge the Clans to rock-paper-scissors in 3050! A good portion of the 'Mechs didn't have hands so the Inner Sphere would win!
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Karasu

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Maybe what you're wanting is a cap of some sort.  That would make it a bit more complex of a calculation, though.
If I understand what you're saying, speed on its own is not useful.  Similarly, just defense would fall somewhat short, and pure offense would be equally poor

  Something like "No single component can be more than the sum of all other components."

Sockmonkey

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Yep.
Like how a pair of MPLs are particularly valuable as point defense on a big slow mech or as the primaries on a light jumpy one.
That's it! Challenge the Clans to rock-paper-scissors in 3050! A good portion of the 'Mechs didn't have hands so the Inner Sphere would win!
If I had a nickel for every time I've legged a Warhammer, I could put them in a sock, spin it around and leg another Warhammer.

iamfanboy

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Maybe what you're wanting is a cap of some sort.  That would make it a bit more complex of a calculation, though.
If I understand what you're saying, speed on its own is not useful.  Similarly, just defense would fall somewhat short, and pure offense would be equally poor

  Something like "No single component can be more than the sum of all other components."
I debated a cap, but no other attribute thus far needs capping - armor is armor, damage is damage, and their values are very straightforward when it comes to the tabletop. For C3, its value increases the more elements you add to it, but if you destroy the master element it becomes worthless, and so on and so forth.

The Movement part of the equation is what's tricky, but we need to separate it down to its core benefits to do so. Either you have enough speed to go forward and maneuver slightly, enough to perform heavy cav/scout hunting, or enough to backstab with regularity - the last being the most valuable things lights can do, and also the most risky! Jumping increases your ability to move, so that's at least another point (and now I'm debating moving it back to 1 point for partial jump/2 for full jump). As far as vehicles go, each alternate movement type has benefits and problems, so I'm inclined to call it a wash.

So... I think I've got it, by Jove!

Papabees

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So... I think I've got it, by Jove!

So does the formula in thread one reflect the most recent version? I ask because I was toying with trying to put a spreadsheet together (although it may be beyond my ability  :)).


iamfanboy

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Okay, these numbers really do feel quite right. I haven't been able to break them quite yet

What I find hilarious is that (as was pointed out to me!) the new Movement formula almost always winds up to being 2*TMM; the only time it varies is when you get to the REALLY fast movers, or the really slow guys (like Foot Infantry or Gnome BA). I'm tempted to go back to 2*TMM just for simplicity's sake. Even if it's not perfect (and the current formula represents a unit's Alpha Value better) perfection is only an attribute of the Divine and I'd rather have the formula be easier to use with just the values on the card instead of consulting multiple lists for X or Y value...

Quote from: Current Alpha Value for stress testing formula
Introductory Boxed Set - Succession Wars Era
COM-2D Commando - 17
SDR-5V Spider - 19
JR7-D Jenner - 23
PNT-9R Panther - 21
ASN-21 Assassin - 21
CDA-2A Cicada - 19
CLNT-2-3T Clint - 22
HER-2S Hermes II - 22
WHT-1 Whitworth - 27
VND-1R Vindicator - 28
ENF-4R Enforcer - 27
HBK-4G Hunchback - 28
TBT-5N Trebuchet - 26
DV-6M Dervish - 31
DRG-1N Dragon - 31
QKD-4D Quickdraw - 32
CPLT-C1 Catapult - 34
JM6-S JagerMech - 27
GHR-5H Grasshopper - 39
AWS-8Q Awesome - 40
ZEU-6S Zeus - 36
CP-10-Z Cyclops - 36
BNC-3E Banshee - 38
AS7-D Atlas - 52

Third Edition Boxed Set - Succession Wars Era
LCT-1V Locust: 16
STG-3R Stinger: 16
WSP-1A Wasp: 16
PXH-1 Phoenix Hawk: 26
GRF-1N Griffin: 31
SHD-2H Shadow Hawk: 30
WVR-6R Wolverine: 30
RFL-3N Rifleman: 27
CRD-3R Crusader: 32
CRD-3L Crusader: 36
TDR-5S Thunderbolt: 36
TDR-5SE Thunderbolt: 37
ARC-2R Archer: 39
WHM-6R Warhammer: 33
MAD-3R Marauder: 35
BLR-1G Battlemaster: 40

Vehicles:
Savannah Master: 13
Scorpion: 12
Maxim: 25
Pegasus: 20
Shrek PPC Carrier: 26

Infantry/Battle Armor
Jump Laser Infantry Platoon: 14
Foot Laser Infantry Platoon: 10
Elemental (AP Gauss): 18
Inner Sphere Standard BA (SRM): 13

Clan Omnimech Prime versions:
Fire Moth: 20
Mist Lynx: 22
Kit Fox: 24
Adder: 29
Viper: 30
Ice Ferret: 31
Nova: 38
Stormcrow: 38
Mad Dog: 39
Hellbringer: 37
Summoner: 41
Timber Wolf: 49
Gargoyle: 36
Warhawk: 52
Executioner: 53
Dire Wolf: 56

Jacob Verdriis

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/27/13!
« Reply #43 on: 28 November 2013, 01:00:27 »
First of all, I simply love the AV-System. Imho it reflects the "real" value of AS units very good.

My only comment ist on the table for movement AV. I prefer formulas over tables (in spreadsheets they are by far less complicated to implement I think). Also I'm no fan of caps so I think movement AV shouldn't be capped at 14". Faster moving units grant great tactical advantages as their movement options are far less predictable.

2*TMM seems quite easy, haven't testcalculated it yet so I can't comment by the moment.

Regarding the movement AV table I thought of Move/5 and allways rounding down. The outcome is quite similar, but it reflects even exremely fast moving units (and their tactical advantages). And... it's a formula... ;)

iamfanboy

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/27/13!
« Reply #44 on: 30 November 2013, 02:33:25 »
So I've been back and forth on this for the last two days, and going back to 2*TMM only adversely affects elements that are either very slow (like foot infantry) or very fast (such as the Savannah Master).

At MOST, the Alpha Value difference seems to be just +1 point versus the "If it moves X than it costs Y", which is honestly acceptable in my mind just for simplifying the formula so very much.

2*TMM makes sense to me, because the TMM represents two values: how hard the element is to hit, and how mobile the unit is. Multiplying it by two represents both those values.

NeonKnight

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #45 on: 05 December 2013, 17:26:51 »
You should change your formula from:

Alpha Value = Special + Offense + Defense + Movement

to

Alpha Value = Movement + Defense + Offense + Special


For no other reason simply then that is the order you then later define the Movement, Defense, Offense and Special formulas/values.
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

Azakael

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #46 on: 06 December 2013, 02:13:18 »
Thinking about it today, does AV take into account unit type? For example, only 'Mechs receive partial cover. Vees have a limited mobility due to terrain effects, plus fragility of motive systems. Do Industrial Mechs pay extra for having advanced fire control or environmental sealing, or do they get a point break if they don't have one or the other?

In other words, all other things being equal, does a vehicle with an identical AS stat-line have the same AV as a battlemech? Does an industrial mech with an identical AS stat-line, but unable to enter deeper water and suffers a penalty to hit, have the same AV as a battlemech? Doesn't seem like this should be so.

Otherwise, I love this and highly endorse it.

iamfanboy

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #47 on: 07 December 2013, 20:56:16 »
Thanks, Neonknight, I knew there was something my brain was getting backwards...

As far as vehicles go, no, a Battlemech and a vehicle with the same statline don't have the same AV because Battlemechs also pay for their melee capability - specifically, their Sz is added to the AV. Good gods, I realize that I wasn't specific enough on that in my formula. *smacks forehead*

One thing I'm thinking about changing, though, is making the TUR Special Ability AV +1. Backstabbing is so useful that being able to strike back at a backstabber, especially the light designs that specialize in it, is definitely worth something IMHO. I'll test it tomorrow.

I was actually misreading the rule on motive hits and didn't think it was THAT bad. Still, how much is a 1/3 chance of losing some movement, or possibly being immobilized, worth? I'm finding it hard to quantify in my head, so I'll do some testing - throw together a militia unit that's almost entirely vehicles. Give them a 1-point bonus per vehicle and see if one side or the other just crushes.

As far as partial cover goes, vehicles are also completely hidden by level 1, which is nice for IF. If a drawback also has a potential tactical benefit I'm reluctant to give any kind of point bonus; that's why I'm in opposition to giving hovercraft a point bonus because their terrain restrictions (no rubble/woods) also lets them skim along water.

However, Wheeled units should absolutely get a point bonus because of their terrain restrictions - especially because Wooded areas are so important in keeping TMMs high!

I really am not sure how to handle IndustrialMechs - I'm gonna be honest, I do NOT see how most of them, in terms of Alpha Strike use, are different enough from normal 'mechs to give them a point bonus.

BFC is worth AV -1, but in looking at the MUL most of the ones intended for actual combat have AFC. As far as the lack of SEAL goes, water is most useful for downing Overheat and providing partial cover, of which only the second one matters to most IMs.

For right now, I'm gonna say that the only bonus which goes towards IMs is AV -1 if they have BFC, but if someone who fields them could actually USE them on the table using this system to see if it's fair then I'd be grateful.

EDIT: Oh, and after using some units with LPRB, LECM and LTAG (specifically, the Kage BA and some other BA) I'm officially making them free. The restrictions on their range makes them... okay, but not great, and very situational.

Karasu

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #48 on: 10 December 2013, 09:02:44 »
I was actually misreading the rule on motive hits and didn't think it was THAT bad. Still, how much is a 1/3 chance of losing some movement, or possibly being immobilized, worth? I'm finding it hard to quantify in my head, so I'll do some testing - throw together a militia unit that's almost entirely vehicles. Give them a 1-point bonus per vehicle and see if one side or the other just crushes.

At the risk of sounding condescending, 1/3 chance of losing some movement, or possibly being immobilized is worth a bit less than 2/3*TMM.  The easy way to go about it may be to say that vehicles have a Movement points of 1.5*TMM rather than 2*TMM.

iamfanboy

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #49 on: 10 December 2013, 18:02:27 »
But swinging too far in making them cheap would be a disaster in another way -
and I'm not sure that your solution is... quite right as the unit's TMM is what protects against the hits, and if a tank moves 4" (Behemoth) it sees no benefit despite the vulnerability.

Playtesting is important, because this weekend I ran four games with an all-tank Unit (1xSchrek, 2x Myrmidon, 3x Scorpion, 1x Maxim, 1x Jump Infantry, 2x Savannah Master) and all the games were really close, but I didn't win any of them - that says to me the points value are close but just a touch high on vehicles. What really helped were the vehicle crit tables; the most likely results on a 2d6 curve (6-8) are No Critical.

The real danger here is initiative sinking; if we make vehicles too cheap, especially the ones great at backstabbiness, then we could tip game balance TOO far in their direction.

Let's do the math on the likelihood of suffering a motive hit. The first result (5-6 on d6) is easy; 33% chance. The basic chance of a motive crit afterwards is 42% (8+ on 2d6). Added together, /2, and we get a 36% chance overall on any given hit inflicting a Motive problem - at least on Tracked vehicles.

Now, Wheeled gives a +2 modifier, which changes the odds to (6+ on 2d6) so that's a 72% chance. Adding the two together we get a 52% chance overall. Hover changes it to a total 57% chance. VTOL/WiGE is 62%. The interesting part is the change to the most lethal result - full immobility. Tracked vehicles have a 16% chance; Wheeled is a 25% chance; Hovers have a 30% chance, and VTOLs are at a 36% chance.

Quantifying that is difficult, and remember that Battlemechs pay for their Sz modifier so an equivalent-weight 'Mech will be more expensive, but I think it's fair to say vehicles deserve SOME kind of discount. However, I don't want to go too big at first.

Wheeled, overall, is the worst (most terrain restricted + bad results on the immobility) so it deserves the biggest discount. Hover and VTOL are gonna hurt when they get hit, but get other mobility advantages (not just counting the sheer speed they have) so they'd get the next biggest discount. Tracked suffers the least of any vehicle, so they'd get the smallest.

So for right now, up for playtest, is the addition to the Movement formula of -(1 if t)-(2 if h)-(2 if v)-(3 if w).

Let's check the values...

That knocks the Savannah Master to 11 points. The Maxim goes to 23 points. The Scorpion, likewise, is 11 points. The Pilum Heavy is 34. I'm gonna run some other numbers up and playtest them this weekend, too - provided I get a chance.

Maingunnery

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #50 on: 10 December 2013, 18:54:56 »

Keep up the work, its highly appreciated!
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Azakael

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #51 on: 12 December 2013, 22:21:54 »
So, I converted all of the 'Mechs in the Alpha Strike book over to AV versus PV. I noticed that on some of the Clan Mechs, where I had primes to compare there is a slight difference. I ended up with: 42 AV on the Thor (Summoner) versus 41; 40 AV on the Loki (Hellbringer) versus 37; 49 AV on the Gladiator (Executioner) versus 53; 33 AV on the Fenris (Viper) versus 31; and 21 AV on the Dasher (Fire Moth) versus 20. Any idea where my conversion went wrong?

That said, the total AV of the pre-gens (assuming my conversion is correct) are:
House Liao: 390
House Kurita: 384
House Davion: 382
House Steiner: 382
House Marik: 402
Clan Jade Falcon: 393 (Default, no skill upgrade...)
Clan Wolf: 415 (Default, no skill upgrade...)

Starterbook Sword and Dragon:
Fox's Teeth (3054): 330 (Default, no skill upgrade.)
Sorenson's Sabres (3062): (Meh, come back to this later.)

iamfanboy

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #52 on: 13 December 2013, 15:21:00 »
I actually think I forgot to recalculate the Clan 'mechs and/or post a corrected version, because my card for the Thor Prime (the only Prime variant I use) says 42, which is the correct value. *sigh* My bad.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #53 on: 13 December 2013, 15:44:19 »
Not sure if this idea was already worked with..

But instead of reworking the points values to better reflect TMM, why not tweak the way TMM is applied?

For example, is it as big a deal when the TMM is based on the distance actually  covered rather than the potential for distance covered? (Basically how it is in TW...)

iamfanboy

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #54 on: 13 December 2013, 16:35:33 »
Not sure if this idea was already worked with..

But instead of reworking the points values to better reflect TMM, why not tweak the way TMM is applied?

For example, is it as big a deal when the TMM is based on the distance actually  covered rather than the potential for distance covered? (Basically how it is in TW...)
Actually, yes, it has been worked with, and it really does overcomplicate the game. TW rules encourage the 'circle' tactic where fast units always move but generally do so in a circle so they get a max TMM; why not just cut out the middle step?

And this system is about more than the TMM. Thanks to losses and gains from the conversion process, some units which have the same stats have different BV2.0s, and some units that are clearly superior to others have similar point values.

For instance, the Thor. The Prime costs 23 points (according to BV) and stats out to 10"j S/M/L 4/4/4 A/S 6/4 and has FLK 1/1/1 and IF1. The D variant costs 26 and has S/M/L 5/4/3, trading FLK and IF for AMS - why does it costs 3 more points? The E-variant costs the same as the D, yet for losing the AMS it has S/M/L 6/5/3. The Thor-M costs 23 points, the same as the Prime, yet loses IF and a point of Long damage. The Thor-G costs 25 points, yet has the same damage stats as the D - and swaps AMS for SRM 2/2, which is a net benefit because of the importance of Infernos in slowing fast targets. The B costs a point less than the Prime, but swaps a point of Long damage and FLK for a whole host of special abilities.

In fact, compare the Thor-B and Thor-D. For one LESS point of Short damage it adds SNARC, LRM 2/2/2, IF2, SRM 1/1 to the Thor-D's stats... and costs four points less. That's huge, especially if it comes to upgrading the pilot.

And that's just ONE Mech and its variants.

The glaring, hideous inconsistency of using a points system which was horribly complicated and still sometimes imprecise in its own game to evaluate a unit IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME is just not good game design. That dog won't hunt.

I mean, even if you took the TMM thing out of it, are 11 Savannah Masters going a fair match against a single Thor-Prime? If - IF - the Thor player wins initiative it'll kill one. But that's still 20 potential points of backstab damage aimed at the Thor from Short range, which going by the percentage of 2d6 is going to eat 12 of that damage.

BV is inadequate. A new system is necessitated, one that judges the Alpha Strike units on their stats.

The point of this thread, and playtesting the formula, is to find which stats are most important, which stats are least important, which special abilities shape the battlefield and which are incidental, and figure the proper formula to price units based on their capability. 

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #55 on: 14 December 2013, 06:48:57 »
BV is inadequate. A new system is necessitated, one that judges the Alpha Strike units on their stats.

I do have to admit that this is inevitably true.

iamfanboy

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #56 on: 19 December 2013, 04:12:51 »
I finally got the actual Alpha Strike rulebook, and...

Good gawds, that "BF+QS Update" is, ah, less than perfect. I noticed two important changes: you only count the unit's highest TMM for its defensive modifier, and vehicle motive hits are a simple 2d6 roll rather than a d6 into a 2d6.

The first one will mean changes to any unit that has a split jump movement - making units like the Jenner, Shadow Hawk, and Executioner (!!) two points cheaper. I'm gonna be playing more tomorrow, so I don't have time to update the points cost, but still...

Second, the vehicle motive hits. Going on 2d6 odds, any hit on a tracked/naval vehicle has a 28% chance of impacting its movement, on a wheeled/hover has a 42% chance, and on VTOL/WiGE is a 58% chance.

Sounds like a lot, yeah?

But it's not, not really, when only one or two hits tend to be fatal anyway to the units in question. How many VTOLs have more than 2-3 points of armor?

The two reasons to discount vehicles are motive hits and terrain restrictions, both of which sound like good ideas, but the terrain restrictions tend to balance - and in some cases, like VTOLs, are there to correct their superior abilities compared to 'Mechs. Oh, the rage on my opponent's face when I kept bouncing my helis behind his 'Mechs while keeping them on elevation 1 to hide from other units...

Considering the Sz value that Battlemechs pay for, giving a discount can lead to a 2-6 point discrepancy between similarly statted and Sized units, and that's too much in my book.

So vehicles receive no discount. Maybe Wheeled will in the future, because it has the most amount of terrain restrictions plus vulnerability to motive hits, but I'm not seeing the necessity at this point.

iamfanboy

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Re: Making Alpha Strike a point system-Alpha Value, updated 11/30/13!
« Reply #57 on: 29 December 2013, 15:44:29 »
So now I'm trying to work out how to value Aerospace units with the Abstract Aerospace system, because (aside from the too-low Threshold values!) I really, REALLY like the Aerospace rules and its balance of ground support and air-to-air.

But the current Alpha Value does NOT work for aerospace combat. It values Armor, Medium Range, and TMM - and none of those things are more important in Aerospace.

For right now, the only stat that seems to be more highly important than others is Threshold - and the hidden stat of how many zones a unit can move. As far as Thrust goes, aside from the aforementioned zone movement the main importance appears to be 1/2 Thrust, as that's what you actually USE in the game to determine Engagement Control.

While Short range is more important than the other ranges because it determines Strafe and Strike damage, I don't want to make it a *2 just yet because ground attack is such high risk/high reward, what with the way that any hit forces a control check at +2, and failing said control check while in the Central Zone means your fighter becomes a very expensive lawn dart. High risk, high reward - a +2/+4 TMM is not THAT high in the grand scheme of things. (Particularly when any damage over 1 will also cross Threshold and also create a critical chance!)

So far, this is my formula:

AF/CF Alpha Value = (Thrust/2) + (Short+Medium+Long+Extreme/2+OV/2)+ Armor + (Structure/2) + (Threshold*2) + (# of the following: PNT, RCN)

With the optional riders as usual - BOMB, C3, C3i, etcetera.

Structure just seems so superfluous because that just means you suffer two criticals per hit... well, most of the time at least.

Let's look at some sample values...

F-10 Cheetah = 17 = (thrust/2) 6 + (short)2 + (medium)1 + (armor)2 + (structure/2)3 + (Threshold*2) 2 + (PNT1)1

Mechbuster = 12 = 3 + 2 +2 +1 +2

Hydaspes = 48 = 3 + 7 + 7 +6 + 2 + 2 + 14 + 3 + 4


...man, I dunno. I'm tempted to make them cheaper than that, if only because the only way AF/CFs are useful is with upgraded pilots, and we're talking in the 70-point range for a Skill 3 Hydaspes. But for now I'll leave this here.

Alexander Knight

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Here's the thing about the threshold value on ASF.  What's the "gold standard" that Trace talks about in the articles?  Being able to not get thresholded by a medium laser.  That's 0.5 AS damage.  Or put another way, the Slayer should be able to threshold ANY introtech aerospace fighter in the game with its AC/10.  That's 1 point of AS damage.  Boosting the Threshold in AS is artificially making the fighters that much tougher.

iamfanboy

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Here's the thing about the threshold value on ASF.  What's the "gold standard" that Trace talks about in the articles?  Being able to not get thresholded by a medium laser.  That's 0.5 AS damage.  Or put another way, the Slayer should be able to threshold ANY introtech aerospace fighter in the game with its AC/10.  That's 1 point of AS damage.  Boosting the Threshold in AS is artificially making the fighters that much tougher.
I had a whole long post written, but then I thought, "Hey, this isn't the place to argue about it, I've got another thread, and right now modifying Threshold is outside the remit of the Alpha Value thread so it isn't really part of my goals here."

So I quoted and responded to your post here, because it has more of my thoughts on the whole thing and I'd prefer to keep this thread tidy and related to Alpha Value.

(I mean, I really wanna argue this, but I also don't want to clutter this thread!)

And just the fact that you're INTERESTED in Alpha Value brings a smile to my face. Thank you.

 

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