BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: RABIDFOX50 on 13 August 2017, 11:49:16
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Any speculations? Are they out there? Are they going to return? Is there a future for my favorite Clan?
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Any speculations? No speculations. Are they out there? No they are not. Are they going to return? Never to return. Is there a future for my favorite Clan? No future.
:-X
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Only in your campaigns. Whatever you come up with you don't have to worry about the TPTB throwing wrench into your plans as they said they are not going to answer what happened to them.
Me, they might have settled a world they call Steadfast a couple jumps south of Erod's Escape. Or the similarities to the Wolverines / Minnesota Tribe is a coincidence.
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They could be some settlers in The Nuevo Castille area .... they could be the Blood ... they could be Blakists.... they could be Ghost Bears.... they could be Periphery Travellers.... or they could be dead.
We all hope they return, hopefully to mess with Nicholas Kerensky an bit more: and with luck Blaine can write a sequel to Betrayal of Ideals in the future. Maybe we'll get Clan Wolverine dice, or other merch.
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We don't know, and anyone who says they do is selling something.
They are the Srodengers cat of BT, both dead and a live at the same time until you think you know, then they are not,
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They say that the Wolverines are the Minnesota Tribe, and became the foundation of the Word of Blake.
All we know is that they call them the Not Named Clan
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FASA said there off beyond the rim fighting Aliens. I like to think that is the case.
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FASA said there off beyond the rim fighting Aliens. I like to think that is the case.
No, a manuscript submitted to FASA said that. FASA laughed it out of the office
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actually IIRC it was an joke comment by one of the FASA writers, never meant to be taken seriously.
They say that the Wolverines are the Minnesota Tribe, and became the foundation of the Word of Blake.
All we know is that they call them the Not Named Clan
well we know they were the minnesota tribe for sure. what happened to them after they did their multi-planet crawl through combine space is unknown.
honestly i suspect that if they didn't end up joining comstar like is claimed, they probably just kept going into the deep deep periphery until they found somewhere to settle. and no longer care about the innersphere or the clans.
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The best proof that the WoB and the Wolverines have nothing in common is the absolute abscence of proof. Not one genetic tie, not one from any WoB acolyte, mechwarrior, anyone with any ties to Comstar or WoB ever popped up. You don't think at least one descendant of the Wolverines would join the Comguards and fight on Tukkayid? Not one would have a career as a HPG Tech and just happened to be in the Invasion corridors?
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I think that the Wolverines split into different groups during & after Barbados. This would explain most things.
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Any speculations? Are they out there? Are they going to return? Is there a future for my favorite Clan?
What we know:
Most of Clan Wolverine died - either when its evacuation staging point was nuked in the Clan Homeworlds, or when most of its ships and personnel were caught in the Barbados Deep Periphery system. There were, however, some survivors.
Two scouting groups missed the big fracas, and reunited afterwards. They added a late-arriving contingent of Wolverine sibcadets, and then headed for the Inner Sphere. They became the Minnesota Tribe.
A third scouting group failed to link up, but was not recorded as being destroyed. There's an outside chance they became the Umayyads.
A few Wolverine WarShips fled during the Barbados fight, with Steel Vipers in hot pursuit. One of those ships later turned up in service to the Word of Blake during the Jihad. Did ComStar find it derelict in the Deep Periphery and mothball it for later, or did they meet up with that ship and grant them sanctuary (forming the basis for the rumored "Cabal" inside ComStar/Word of Blake)?
As to the Minnesota Tribe, we have what appears to be concrete evidence that the Tribe circled clockwise around the Inner Sphere and built a base on a world about one jump coreward of the non-Tribe-related world of McEvedy's Folly. At some point, that base was abandoned - possibly with violence involved. By the latter part of the 31st century, unknown forces using Manei Domini equipment were guarding the world, exterminating an Interstellar Expeditions team on the surface.
What happened, and where'd they go?
My theory: The crew of the Zughoffer Weir did indeed meet up with ComStar and gain sanctuary - either on Mars, or on at least one of the Hidden Five. (Perhaps both). Their descendants were the ones pushing for the anti-Clan Jihad, and also the ones responsible for the "visions" of monstrous beasts descending from the Periphery (triggering the formation of the Explorer Corps). A member of the cabal was also responsible for the leak of the purported "Wolverine Journal," which contains a few nuggets of true data, but mostly false information. (Based on the disconnect between Blaine Pardoe's story and the journal narrative).
Meanwhile, the Tribe seems to have lived in secrecy until at least the early 3000s on their base rimward of the Magistracy of Canopus. At some point, they made contact with the Magistracy, offering tech. (MoC from the earliest sourcebooks boasted of a source of technology from somewhere beyond the Periphery.) When parties unknown smashed their base, the survivors Exodused again to the Magistracy. The MoC went from having to write its army manuals down to a fifth grade reading level in 3025 to having high-tech cyborg super agents in the Ebon Directorate circa 3040. That's a lot of progress in 15 years. Did I mention the last director of the Wolverine Watch was Trish Ebon?
Meta theory - because the unknown anti-IE force at the Tribe baseworld was using advanced WoB tech, my guess is that the Cabal Wolverines discovered and had a falling out with the Tribe Wolverines in the early 3000s, and the Cabal massacred the Tribe, leaving the survivors to flee to the Magistracy, promising tech for sanctuary. This could explain why the fiction shows that there was a shadow war between the Manei Domini and the Ebon Directorate in the WoB-occupied Magistracy during the Jihad - a continuation of the Tribe/Cabal conflict.
Anyhoo - the theory fits the existing facts, but is by no means airtight or in any way canon.
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Beat me to it Mendrugo! And better written than what I had. My money is the Zughoffer Weir met up with Trish Ebon's force but the Battleship was too damaged to continue on and was abandoned. The task force continued on to the edge of the Magistracy and set up a outpost that was later abandoned and they continued on deeper into the Periphery. The Wolverines never had contact with the Inner Sphere or the Periphery and the WoB force in 3095 was just as interested in the world as Interstellar Expeditions were. Both to figure out a long standing mystery of the long lost Clan, to find and destroy a Clan which was the original purpose of the Manei Domini, to look for usable tech or caches they may have left behind. From the story the Wolverine Mechs .
The above mentioned outpost was noted to be several levels deep and had discarded mech hulls and tech left behind but no sign of damage other than a landslide hiding the buildings surface. Probably the world was unstable and abandoned.
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The thing about the visions that, I think it was Simons, of the 19 clans when the Wolverines left she named 4 clans that would invade.
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The thing about the visions that, I think it was Simons, of the 19 clans when the Wolverines left she named 4 clans that would invade.
Primus Sim's. She created the Explorer Corp that would eventually come in contact with the Clans decades later. The visions included a "metallic viper", the "emerald birds of death", the demon horses and a "six-legged bear".
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Mendrugo, do you recall the sourcebook where you read about the Magistracy receiving the unknown technology?
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Primus Sim's. She created the Explorer Corp that would eventually come in contact with the Clans decades later. The visions included a "metallic viper", the "emerald birds of death", the demon horses and a "six-legged bear".
Yeah. What I did such a poor job of conveying was that if the Wolverines did contact Comstar, she managed to pick the right ones. Some people don't like the sixth sense thing saying it is luck. If it was me just guessing I probably would have picked Widow Maker and Burrock.
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Mendrugo, do you recall the sourcebook where you read about the Magistracy receiving the unknown technology?
MechWarrior 1st Edition, MechWarrior 2nd edition, and an oblique reference to ComStar investigating it in Guide to Covert Ops. All it says is that the Magistracy has been receiving technology from a "mysterious source beyond the Periphery."
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Another issue I had with Comstar/Wolverine connection is if there was one the last thing they would be doing is sending jumpships out in that general direction. Every other one, but not towards the Clans no matter how many Divisions they had discovered on Terra. They know where the Homeworld are after all.
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Unless that was the the point - to draw the Clans and the Successor States into a giant game of "Let's you and him fight," to get revenge on the entities that destroyed their Clan and the entities that destroyed the Star League.
Quite a coincidence that the Outbound Light just happened to pop in over Huntress only after the ComGuard was formed and capable of resisting the Clan toumans.
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MechWarrior 1st and 2nd Edition basically say the same thing. "Spies from the IS claim that the MoC has a source of supply for its Mech units that lies 'somewhere beyond the Periphery.'"
It doesn't say technology, both books say "for its 'Mech units."
Brush Wars (I think) and Guide to Covert Ops don't say "supply of technology," but something along the lines of "resource-rich worlds beyond explored space.'
Guide to Covert Ops speculates alot, with suggestions of a Germanium rich world, or a Star League depot or something. It also suggests that the Magistracy Intelligence Ministry's newfound success could be because of the Dragoons joining the organization, or co-opting it for some reason.
TR3075 has the Magistracy suddenly utilizing pristine-condition Dictators starting around 3075, whose providence is unknown.
And XTRO Periphery gives us the Vengeance-Class Pocket WarShip Prototype the MCS Danai Centrella, whose origins are unknown.
So there are a few oddities out there tied to the Magistracy. Whether they're all linked, or some of them even true, is still up in the air.
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What happened, and where'd they go?
Meanwhile, the Tribe seems to have lived in secrecy until at least the early 3000s on their base rimward of the Magistracy of Canopus. At some point, they made contact with the Magistracy, offering tech. (MoC from the earliest sourcebooks boasted of a source of technology from somewhere beyond the Periphery.) When parties unknown smashed their base, the survivors Exodused again to the Magistracy. The MoC went from having to write its army manuals down to a fifth grade reading level in 3025 to having high-tech cyborg super agents in the Ebon Directorate circa 3040. That's a lot of progress in 15 years. Did I mention the last director of the Wolverine Watch was Trish Ebon?
Meta theory - because the unknown anti-IE force at the Tribe baseworld was using advanced WoB tech, my guess is that the Cabal Wolverines discovered and had a falling out with the Tribe Wolverines in the early 3000s, and the Cabal massacred the Tribe, leaving the survivors to flee to the Magistracy, promising tech for sanctuary. This could explain why the fiction shows that there was a shadow war between the Manei Domini and the Ebon Directorate in the WoB-occupied Magistracy during the Jihad - a continuation of the Tribe/Cabal conflict.
Its an interesting theory, and you're not the first to notice the naming similarity between Trish Ebon and the Ebon Magistrate. I do think a few things are off. Unless I'm missing something, we don't have any evidence of the Ebon Magistrate existing in the 3040's. Guide to Covert Ops calls the The Ebon Magistrate section "a recent development." The 3040's was when the overhaul of the MIM started, but unless I'm missing details, we don't have any indication of the Ebon Magistrate active before the 3060's.
The survivors offering tech is an interesting theory, but that doesn't explain why the Magistracy was so hungry for knowledge and technology in the 3050's and 60's, enough so that they got into the bed with the Capellan Confederation on the promise of having tech and educators. If they had a source of it from the outside, they wouldn't have needed the Capellans...or atleast not as much as they did.
Unless that was the the point - to draw the Clans and the Successor States into a giant game of "Let's you and him fight," to get revenge on the entities that destroyed their Clan and the entities that destroyed the Star League.
Quite a coincidence that the Outbound Light just happened to pop in over Huntress only after the ComGuard was formed and capable of resisting the Clan toumans.
On the other hand, the ComGuards were just enough to resist the few Clans that showed up, and really only because they bid poorly, spurred on the by machinations of the Wolves.
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It's entirely possible that ships like the Outbound Light may have been scouting for the Clan homeworlds, and just got unlucky about getting away without getting caught.
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Unless that was the the point - to draw the Clans and the Successor States into a giant game of "Let's you and him fight," to get revenge on the entities that destroyed their Clan and the entities that destroyed the Star League.
Quite a coincidence that the Outbound Light just happened to pop in over Huntress only after the ComGuard was formed and capable of resistring the Clan toumans.
About 80 years between the formation of the Comguards and Outbound Light as appearing over Huntress and Sims hated the idea of the Comguards. That was her predecessors initiave. That's a very long game there if it's true.
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About 80 years between the formation of the Comguards and Outbound Light as appearing over Huntress and Sims hated the idea of the Comguards. That was her predecessors initiave. That's a very long game there if it's true.
But only a decade or so after the Com Guard was publicly revealed and deployed across the Inner Sphere, giving it time to gain field experience fighting bandits.
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Mendrugo, do you recall the sourcebook where you read about the Magistracy receiving the unknown technology?
The MIM is so good at what it does, that no one realized that the MIM was stealing their high-tech production from right under their own noses. O0
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I do reject the WOB theory as there is no evidence and no genetic proof as well.
Thank you for the the experienced suggestions.
One would hope that CGL will revisit them in the future and not make the mistakes FASA did so long ago.
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I do not think that TPTB has a detailed story developed so far what has happened to them.
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Ann Arbor.
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I do reject the WOB theory as there is no evidence and no genetic proof as well.
What do you call the SLS Zughoffer Weir, then? How did it end up in the WoB fleet during the Jihad? In terms of genetics, we've seen Clan renegades take extremes to cover their genetic tracks (the Jaguars in Surrender Your Dreams using flamers to scour battlefields clean of the remains of their fallen, for example). Also, if the Cabal Wolverines were relocated to a hidden community on one of The Five, there'd be no opportunities for genetic mixing with the general ComStar populace.
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Primus Sim's. She created the Explorer Corp that would eventually come in contact with the Clans decades later. The visions included a "metallic viper", the "emerald birds of death", the demon horses and a "six-legged bear".
how much involvement did the various 'invading clans' from her vision have relative to the politics at the time of the wolverine annihilation? if the half dozen clans she saw in her vision match up to the ones that were ascendant at the time, it might be evidence for the vision being a fraud to cover up hidden knowledge.
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It also could have been the case that Primus Sims got "visions" of 19 "beasts" (maybe 18 - "And a golden disk with a core of blood!!!" doesn't really fit) but people cherry picked the ones that matched the invading Clans when they first arrived, not quoting her account in full.
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What do you call the SLS Zughoffer Weir, then? How did it end up in the WoB fleet during the Jihad? In terms of genetics, we've seen Clan renegades take extremes to cover their genetic tracks (the Jaguars in Surrender Your Dreams using flamers to scour battlefields clean of the remains of their fallen, for example). Also, if the Cabal Wolverines were relocated to a hidden community on one of The Five, there'd be no opportunities for genetic mixing with the general ComStar populace.
Thats the thing, I don't see the Wolverines going quietly to a Hidden World. There not that passive and they would want to go out into the Inner Sphere at some point. There genetics would be out there eventually. And the only example they ever found was a distaff family member of Hallis. As for the Zughoffer Weir I honestly believe the WoB found it or maybe the Explorer Corp did and the WoB just got to a abandoned ship first. Comstar and WoB never fielded any mechs or even tech they developed like the Enhanced ER PPC. And not even mechs that the SLDF had left behind or even designed before they left like the Wolverine II. No I just don't see the Wolverine/Comstar/WoB connection. I still have issues that no one, not one person in Comstar after the split even knew of the Hidden Worlds. Seriously, no one told Focht that they controlled five worlds hidden away with tons of gear on them? But they told him of Ross and Luyten?
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The Word used the Wolverine II during the Jihad.
The thing you need to remember is that the Wolverines were not a modern clan as such. The bulk of its Warriors were first or second generation Star League in exile, still in the process of transitioning to what we now call Clan society. Culturally, they're not as "clan" as you might think. From a genetic point of view, it's a matter of numbers; you're talking about hiding a few hundred people within an Inner Sphere population of billions. Needles in a haystack.
Finally, the Hidden Worlds (and what eventually became the Master, the Manei Domeni and so on) were a conspiracy within Conmstar. Circles within circles and all that. Its information that was controlled and only accessible to people that they wanted to know about it. Focht (and Mori) were not people on that list.
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The Word used the Wolverine II during the Jihad.
Sure, so did the DC, FS, FWL, the Home World Clans and the Society.
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Sure, so did the DC, FS, FWL, the Home World Clans and the Society.
I was just commenting on the post above regarding Word not using the Wolverine II when, in fact, they did.
Most if not all of the 'Mechs used by the Wolverines were standard SLDF designs. The Word also made heavy use of such designs. The Stag, Mercury II and Pulveriser were in the minority of the designs they fielded. Their not appearing (at least, not veritably such) doesn't disprove the connection.
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Ah sorry, didn't see a quote, and so didn't investigate further.
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Ah sorry, didn't see a quote, and so didn't investigate further.
All cool.
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Boy, the milage we got out of making Weirdo into a warship :D
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Boy, the milage we got out of making Weirdo into a warship :D
Wait what?
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The Word used the Wolverine II during the Jihad.
The thing you need to remember is that the Wolverines were not a modern clan as such. The bulk of its Warriors were first or second generation Star League in exile, still in the process of transitioning to what we now call Clan society. Culturally, they're not as "clan" as you might think. From a genetic point of view, it's a matter of numbers; you're talking about hiding a few hundred people within an Inner Sphere population of billions. Needles in a haystack.
Finally, the Hidden Worlds (and what eventually became the Master, the Manei Domeni and so on) were a conspiracy within Conmstar. Circles within circles and all that. Its information that was controlled and only accessible to people that they wanted to know about it. Focht (and Mori) were not people on that list.
Touching on that the Wolverines were not the modern Clan construct, would it be wise to say if they are still around that they would still employ SLDF tactics and formations? Also follow monogamous relationships, nuclear families as well as genetic procreation? An integration of both Clan and IS civilizations?
I'm in the process of creating a unit derived of Wolverine warriors itch some back story. The story of the unit involves two Davion Mechwarriors that were saved by this unit and integrated in due to events just after the Civil War. A work in progress so to speak. I'm no writer but I thought I'd take a crack at it.
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Wait what?
The Zughoff Wier was an homage to Weirdo.
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The Zughoffer Weir was an homage to Weirdo.
FTFY, you forgot the 'er' and fixed the transposed vowels
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Okay.... interesting: these are stories we like to hear more of .
Anyways on the subject it also begs the question "what happened to the rest of the Wolverines Warships?"
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FTFY, you forgot the 'er' and fixed the transposed vowels
Hell, I usually just call it the Zug and leave it at that. :D
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What do you call the SLS Zughoffer Weir, then? How did it end up in the WoB fleet during the Jihad? In terms of genetics, we've seen Clan renegades take extremes to cover their genetic tracks (the Jaguars in Surrender Your Dreams using flamers to scour battlefields clean of the remains of their fallen, for example). Also, if the Cabal Wolverines were relocated to a hidden community on one of The Five, there'd be no opportunities for genetic mixing with the general ComStar populace.
What proof is there the ZW went on the Exodus? What proof is there the Blakes Sword is the ZW?
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Touching on that the Wolverines were not the modern Clan construct, would it be wise to say if they are still around that they would still employ SLDF tactics and formations? Also follow monogamous relationships, nuclear families as well as genetic procreation? An integration of both Clan and IS civilizations?
I'm in the process of creating a unit derived of Wolverine warriors itch some back story. The story of the unit involves two Davion Mechwarriors that were saved by this unit and integrated in due to events just after the Civil War. A work in progress so to speak. I'm no writer but I thought I'd take a crack at it.
I think Wolverine society would be a mix of the two. Reports of the Minnesota Tribe said they used SLDF tactics and colors.
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What proof is there the ZW went on the Exodus? What proof is there the Blakes Sword is the ZW?
It's named in Betrayal of Ideals. A report in a Hot Spots book identifies the Blakes Sword as being the former Zughoffer Weir.
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The ZW is first named on a illustration which lists a bunch of warships with went on the Exodus - I forget which book, one of the first FanPro ones. FM: Updates perhaps? The artists wanted a list of classes and ship names so we provided him with it :) Several writers have ships named after them (including me).
When Blaine wanted a warship name for Betrayal of Ideals I couldn't resist giving him the ZW.
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The ZW is first named on a illustration which lists a bunch of warships with went on the Exodus - I forget which book, one of the first FanPro ones. FM: Updates perhaps? The artists wanted a list of classes and ship names so we provided him with it :) Several writers have ships named after them (including me).
Its in FM:Updates p9.
Chris W
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:-X
It's named in Betrayal of Ideals. A report in a Hot Spots book identifies the Blakes Sword as being the former Zughoffer Weir.
I suppose one could argue that as the information that tells us that the Blake's Sword is in the "Through the Looking Glass" section of Jihad Secrets, that the link might just be a red herring and not necessarily true, unless its been published elsewhere.
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Just a throw away theory....but what if ComStar did stumble upon the remnants of the Wolverines and they did offer them sanctuary on the Hidden Five? But! And here's the theory: what if that is all that happened? The remains of Wolverine simply adapted back into civilian life on those forgotten worlds and faded into the past? They didn't become a super secret sect at the heart of ComStar. They didn't plot revenge on their former Clansmen. They were simply tired of war and faded into civilian life. As far as we know (or at least to the best of my recollection), the MD came from Jardine. So it can be safe to assume that they weren't settled there. They gave ComStar some information about the Clans, but not how to find them. (Even after all that happened, would they really want to see the Inner Sphere bringing war to the Clans?)
So basically, they met up with ComStar and made a deal to trade information in exchange for being given somewhere that they could settle and live in peace. (And how many survivors would they be of the group that supposedly met with ComStar? Several hundred thousand? A couple million? On the scale of the Inner Sphere, that's minuscule and if their world was kept strictly quarantined, it wouldn't be that hard at all to keep them a secret.)
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Just a throw away theory....but what if ComStar did stumble upon the remnants of the Wolverines and they did offer them sanctuary on the Hidden Five? But! And here's the theory: what if that is all that happened? The remains of Wolverine simply adapted back into civilian life on those forgotten worlds and faded into the past? They didn't become a super secret sect at the heart of ComStar. They didn't plot revenge on their former Clansmen. They were simply tired of war and faded into civilian life. As far as we know (or at least to the best of my recollection), the MD came from Jardine. So it can be safe to assume that they weren't settled there. They gave ComStar some information about the Clans, but not how to find them. (Even after all that happened, would they really want to see the Inner Sphere bringing war to the Clans?)
So basically, they met up with ComStar and made a deal to trade information in exchange for being given somewhere that they could settle and live in peace. (And how many survivors would they be of the group that supposedly met with ComStar? Several hundred thousand? A couple million? On the scale of the Inner Sphere, that's minuscule and if their world was kept strictly quarantined, it wouldn't be that hard at all to keep them a secret.)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/51/1a/1d/511a1d250f3be9ba57c13fd2895ce16b.jpg)
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I think its more likely the Wolverines would have blown any Comstar jumps up rather than talk to them.
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I think its more likely the Wolverines would have blown any Comstar jumps up rather than talk to them.
Why?
The Wolverines were fugitives fleeing a genocide. They had nowhere to go, no known safe haven or fallback point. If Comstar - the first generation decendants of a Star League agency at that - offered them refuge, they would be stupid not to accept it. And even more stupid to be aggressively hostile in reply.
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Another question should be, culd they hae been still capable to escape from Comstar after the contact was made?
While they might have thought that Comstar was still a Star League remnant, after contact they should have understood what (creepy) transformation Comstar had done into. IMHO hardly values the ex Wolverines would stand for.
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Another question should be, culd they hae been still capable to escape from Comstar after the contact was made?
While they might have thought that Comstar was still a Star League remnant, after contact they should have understood what (creepy) transformation Comstar had done into. IMHO hardly values the ex Wolverines would stand for.
Comstar was still undergoing transformation at that point; it was early into Toyama's reign. The real creepiness wouldn't start until Karpov's time, which was after the Minnesota Tribe.
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It's named in Betrayal of Ideals. A report in a Hot Spots book identifies the Blakes Sword as being the former Zughoffer Weir.
A book itself which may simply be a copy of in universe Society propaganda rather than in universe history.
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A book itself which may simply be a copy of in universe Society propaganda rather than in universe history.
There's a passage at the end of the book where the author pretty bluntly says that it's the actual in universe history.
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There's a passage at the end of the book where the author pretty bluntly says that it's the actual in universe history.
But there are some fans who will never accept that.
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There's a passage at the end of the book where the author pretty bluntly says that it's the actual in universe history.
Which is pretty much meaningless because the line developer and writers can decide at any time to change it.
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The true fate of the Wolverines will probably never be known. Its too good of a plot hook to do so.
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A book itself which may simply be a copy of in universe Society propaganda rather than in universe history.
If you're talking about "Betrayal of Ideals", it's a novel. Novels are always canon. In fact, they pretty much trump everything else. (Not saying they can't be tweaked or overwritten by something else, just look at the epilogue of "Surrender Your Dreams". But on the while novels are considered primary sources with sourcebooks just behind them.)
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So without reading the entire thread, has anybody suggested that the whole wolverine section in the Blake Documents was actually falsified by Victoria Pardeu (the rogue head of ROM whose papers it was supposed to be from) as a way of provoking the clans to fully commit to the war against the Word of Blake?
Something like a tragic hero, started out loyal to the cause of Blake but became disillusioned as the situation went further and further out of control. In too deep to act directly, she instead leaves a tidbit that might provoke the Ghost Bears to war.
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The "Wolverine Journals" are definite falsehoods. There's no mention of the battle at Barbados, but instead a description of a running naval battle through the Kerensky Cluster. Also, the Journal claims that a scout group encountered a Spanish speaking colony world, reported back to the fleet, went out for another look, and never returned. This strongly implies that the scouts encountered Nueva Castille and became the Umayyads upon going back for a second look. The thing is, the Wolverines backtracked along the Exodus Road, which is roughly 25 jumps from Nueva Castille. Chronology does not support that the Wolverine fleet sat around for a couple of years while the scouts ranged out that far, came back, and then ranged out again.
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Something like a tragic hero, started out loyal to the cause of Blake but became disillusioned as the situation went further and further out of control. In too deep to act directly, she instead leaves a tidbit that might provoke the Ghost Bears to war.
That's one implication.
The other is that Uncle Chandy or Devlin Stone (or their agents) added to or modified Parrdeau's journal to provoke the Clans into going to war against the Blakists.
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At the end of the novel, the Explorer Corps. found the shrine / graves of the Khan and Sa-Khan with cut flowers on the graves estimated to be months old. Someone visits the site. Someone pays respects on a regular basis. I do not think we have heard the end of the 331st.
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'Cept Sarah McEvedy isn't planted there. Trish Ebon's detachment picked her up off Barbados after Nicky left her there with the corpses of her people.
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'Cept Sarah McEvedy isn't planted there. Trish Ebon's detachment picked her up off Barbados after Nicky left her there with the corpses of her people.
It is never said who the woman is Trish picks up. It is implied that Nick left her as he is hearing her voice as he stands over the graves.
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Yeah, nick had both buried there. And I thought the grave site was discovered before the clan invasion?
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Yeah, nick had both buried there. And I thought the grave site was discovered before the clan invasion?
No. BoL says that when Trish is there, there is no body under Sarah's tombstone.
In 3041 when C* finds it, it says two graves. Whether Sarah is buried there later or C* didn't look that close is up for debate.
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No. BoL says that when Trish is there, there is no body under Sarah's tombstone.
In 3041 when C* finds it, it says two graves. Whether Sarah is buried there later or C* didn't look that close is up for debate.
Just reread the last two parts. You're right. It says the earth in front of Sarah's stone was undisturbed when nick visited. I must have misunderstood it when I first read it.
When did Trish come back though?
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Trish's scout fleet came back after recharging - about a week after the Battle of Barbados, minimum. Long enough that the Grand Council fleet had skedaddled back to the Kerensky cluster. The woman has severe skin damage - which to me indicates it's McEvedy - last seen getting treatment for serious radiation burns in secret aboard Nicky's flagship.
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Trish's scout fleet came back after recharging - about a week after the Battle of Barbados, minimum. Long enough that the Grand Council fleet had skedaddled back to the Kerensky cluster. The woman has severe skin damage - which to me indicates it's McEvedy - last seen getting treatment for serious radiation burns in secret aboard Nicky's flagship.
Where did that happen though? The book goes right from nick standing over the two tombstones to comstar finding the site 217 years later. I bought an early release copy at a previous gencon(last year?) but only recently got around to reading it. Did the final release add a chapter?
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In the serialized BattleCorps version, it is on p. 69 of "Asunder" in the paragraph starting with "A hand touched her shoulder,...". The scene is dated August 20, 2824.
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In the serialized BattleCorps version, it is on p. 69 of "Asunder" in the paragraph starting with "A hand touched her shoulder,...". The scene is dated August 20, 2824.
Ah there we go. In my copy, the last chapter before the comstar epilogue is July 11th 2824.
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That's interesting. I knew the published version added the new epilogue chapter. I hadn't realized it purged some of the serialized BattleCorps content.
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Honestly I believe Uncle Chandy put the Wolverine Documents out there to anger the Clans into action. They would have probably stayed out of the Jihad otherwise and the coalition needed there mechs and warships to be able to fight the WoB.
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Of course, another option was that it was to be sued by the WoB if they had joined the Star League, in order to get the Clans to attack.
WoB: "Now that we've joined the Star League, we want to do Bulldog 2.0 and destroy the rest of the Clans."
IS: "Eh. they're kind of peaceful right now, we don't want to provoke them while we're rebuilding."
WoB: "Oh sure. No Problem."
And then a year later the Ghost Bears go berserk because a document has leaked linking the Wolverines to Terra...
WoB: "So about what we were saying a year ago..."
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Honestly I believe Uncle Chandy put the Wolverine Documents out there to anger the Clans into action. They would have probably stayed out of the Jihad otherwise and the coalition needed there mechs and warships to be able to fight the WoB.
They'd have been dragged in regardless.
The Blake Documents are dated around 3076. The Scourging of Tamar had already taken place.
Nor did the WOB need an excuse to fight the Clans.
It seems likely that the BD docs are false though. No idea who would have written it or why.
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They'd have been dragged in regardless.
The Blake Documents are dated around 3076. The Scourging of Tamar had already taken place.
Nor did the WOB need an excuse to fight the Clans.
It seems likely that the BD docs are false though. No idea who would have written it or why.
They were a garuntee to get ALL the Clans involved. Tamar could be seen as a Wolf problem. The Inner Sphere needed all the Clans involved to garuntee victory.
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The ZW is first named on a illustration which lists a bunch of warships with went on the Exodus - I forget which book, one of the first FanPro ones. FM: Updates perhaps? The artists wanted a list of classes and ship names so we provided him with it :) Several writers have ships named after them (including me).
Its in FM:Updates p9.
Chris W
Awesome bit of trivia there! ;D
Though I can't help but notice the Morello is listed as a Liberator-class vessel... a design that wasn't introduced for another 240 years, by rebuilding the mothballed remains of the six Avatar-class cruisers that had joined the Exodus.
Also, the Zughoffer Weir is spelled as Zughoffer Wier in the listing in that image.
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As far as genetic testing is concerned, after over 200 years I reckon it would be impossible to identify anyone, anywhere as a descendant of a small group of Wolverine survivors out of the entire Wolverine population:
To begin with, the Clans don't know who survived so they don't know who they're looking for. Except for the Warriors from the breeding program, the Wolverine members would be random guys, i.e. a very heterogenic group, from the Exodus whose genetic code would presumably not even be on file anywhere. And even if you have the entire Wolverine population's genetic codes stored, you're checking for descendants two centuries down the line, at least five generations. Even if there somehow are unique Wolverine genetic markers, they will not be identifyable anymore by this time. Keep in mind the human DNA is over 95% identical with chimpanzee DNA, and you'll see how small the differences between individual humans are in a potential pool of billions of individuals.
A book itself which may simply be a copy of in universe Society propaganda rather than in universe history.
No. As per the rules on Canon as laid out by then-LD Herb Beas, and by the description of the concept of "novel fiction" in the 25 Years of Art and Fiction tome, Betrayal of Ideals is the absolute straight truth of what happened, period. You can take the novel at face value.
And if that wasn't enough, two Line Developers have since explicitly confirmed that, as described in Betrayal of Ideals, Trish Ebon's group became the Minnesota Tribe. That much is undisputable canon.
That's interesting. I knew the published version added the new epilogue chapter. I hadn't realized it purged some of the serialized BattleCorps content.
There are two editions of the novel, the earlier BattleCorps serial and the print edition. The former has additional appendices while the latter has an additional prologue and epilogue. Both editions are fully canonical. There is an explicit ruling that as far as BattleTech canon is concerned, an omission does not equal a de-canonisation so the fact that all the epilogue scenes were published in the BattleCorps edition is enough for them to be canon, even when they weren't reproduced in print.
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Though I can't help but notice the Morello is listed as a Liberator-class vessel... a design that wasn't introduced for another 240 years, by rebuilding the mothballed remains of the six Avatar-class cruisers that had joined the Exodus.
Yup, its a difficult one to reconcile. Some have suggested its evidence of an earlier Liberator class.
Chris W
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As far as genetic testing is concerned, after over 200 years I reckon it would be impossible to identify anyone, anywhere as a descendant of a small group of Wolverine survivors out of the entire Wolverine population...
And even if you have the entire Wolverine population's genetic codes stored, you're checking for descendants two centuries down the line, at least five generations.
I dunno about that. There are genetic tests today that can identify fifth cousins, i.e., whether two people share the same great-great-great-grandparent five generations back.
Even if there somehow are unique Wolverine genetic markers, they will not be identifyable anymore by this time. Keep in mind the human DNA is over 95% identical with chimpanzee DNA, and you'll see how small the differences between individual humans are in a potential pool of billions of individuals.
There are genetic markers like mitochondrial DNA and the Y chromosome that naturally remain unchanged for tens of thousands (Y chromosome) to hundreds of thousands (mitochondrial DNA) of years. They are directly inherited from the mother or father and only change through rare mutation.
I would imagine that once the Clans started tinkering in eugenics, they introduced changes in mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondria are the power plants of cells and making them more productive and efficient would boost the strength and endurance of Clan warrior phenotypes across the board.
If the Clans were messing with mitochondrial DNA before the Wolverine Annihilation, then any descendants of those Wolverine warriors would certainly bear those mitrochondrial DNA markers unchanged a couple or few centuries later.
There may be other genetic fingerprints from the Clan eugenics program. For example, the absence of certain genes would be just as big a clue as the presence of certain genes. The Clans probably eliminated the genes for most common human genetic diseases from their warrior genepools. If the Clans started doing that before the Wolverine annihilation, the absence or an unnaturally low prevalence of those genes in a population would be a strong indicator that the population is descended from the Clan warrior caste.
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Not convinced.
When the Wolverines bit the dust, they were second- or at most, third-generation Clanners; not to mention the civilian castes who would have outnumbered the warriors by orders of magnitude and may have included people who personally had been on the Exodus. I don't know when the eugenics program really took off, but for all we know the Clan concept was only introduced in 2807 - and I highly doubt vat breeding was already a working process by then. Which is to say, genetically engineered (or even "trueborn") people couldn't be more than between 14 and 17 years old, and there may not have been any at all yet.
I simply don't see what "Wolverine genes" the Clans may be testing for. These Wolverines had nothing in common genetically.
The Clans simply wouldn't know what to look for, unless you want to assume the complete genome of every last Wolverine citizen had been saved in some database.
(And yes, I'm aware of Dr. Vaughn who inserted "Wolverine genes" into two generations of Ghost Bears... but that's an entirely different story, given the short timeframe, lab conditions, and Clan mindset.)
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It's also possible the Wolverines that made it to Nuevo Castille had very few actual Warriors in the group and whatever people were tested were the descendants of civilians and not the Warrior Caste. It's likely they had DNA from the Warriors and not the civilians.
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I simply don't see what "Wolverine genes" the Clans may be testing for. These Wolverines had nothing in common genetically.
The Clans simply wouldn't know what to look for, unless you want to assume the complete genome of every last Wolverine citizen had been saved in some database.
(And yes, I'm aware of Dr. Vaughn who inserted "Wolverine genes" into two generations of Ghost Bears... but that's an entirely different story, given the short timeframe, lab conditions, and Clan mindset.)
Trouble is, the Clans ARE doing it...and they DID find Wolverine DNA with the Hallis family. SO whatever they are looking for obviously is there.
For them anyway.
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No. As per the rules on Canon as laid out by then-LD Herb Beas, and by the description of the concept of "novel fiction" in the 25 Years of Art and Fiction tome, Betrayal of Ideals is the absolute straight truth of what happened, period. You can take the novel at face value.
And if that wasn't enough, two Line Developers have since explicitly confirmed that, as described in Betrayal of Ideals, Trish Ebon's group became the Minnesota Tribe. That much is undisputable canon.
And normally I'd agree. But there is also a canonical reference to the Societys propaganda. They have also been known to change their minds before. But most importantly, TPTB are still obfuscating on the "true" history and story and the WoR entry gives them an out as to where and how BoI is canonical.
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And normally I'd agree. But there is also a canonical reference to the Societys propaganda. They have also been known to change their minds before. But most importantly, TPTB are still obfuscating on the "true" history and story and the WoR entry gives them an out as to where and how BoI is canonical.
Beg to differ:
We don't positively know what exactly the so-called "Society Propaganda" entails.
The fake diaries which were apparently written by someone with knowlege of the actual truth in a deliberate attempt to mislead canonically exist as a rumor of dubious veracity.
We, the fans and readers, know what truly happened.
TPTB are not obfuscating this part of the Wolverine history at all, nor has anyone ever cast any doubt on the canonicity of BoI. Quite to the contrary, Randall Bills and Ray Arrastia have repeatedly and explicitly stated that BoI narrates how the Minnesota Tribe came to be.
What we don't know is how the story continued after the Minnesota Tribe's trail was lost, I grant you that. We also don't know (but have strong evidence) if Wolverine survivors made contact with ComStar, or (weaker evidence) if Wolverine survivors became the Umayyads. Mendrugo explained that pretty well upthread.
The part I fail to understand is why some people might think BoI might be anything but fully canon?
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And normally I'd agree. But there is also a canonical reference to the Societys propaganda. They have also been known to change their minds before. But most importantly, TPTB are still obfuscating on the "true" history and story and the WoR entry gives them an out as to where and how BoI is canonical.
The Warriors thought it was propaganda, but it was just the honest truth. ;)
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There are two editions of the novel, the earlier BattleCorps serial and the print edition. The former has additional appendices while the latter has an additional prologue and epilogue. Both editions are fully canonical. There is an explicit ruling that as far as BattleTech canon is concerned, an omission does not equal a de-canonisation so the fact that all the epilogue scenes were published in the BattleCorps edition is enough for them to be canon, even when they weren't reproduced in print.
On one hand, I'm upset that I didn't get the full book. On the other hand, I didn't really enjoy the book that much anyway so i guess there's no lose?
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Not convinced.
When the Wolverines bit the dust, they were second- or at most, third-generation Clanners; not to mention the civilian castes who would have outnumbered the warriors by orders of magnitude and may have included people who personally had been on the Exodus. I don't know when the eugenics program really took off, but for all we know the Clan concept was only introduced in 2807 - and I highly doubt vat breeding was already a working process by then. Which is to say, genetically engineered (or even "trueborn") people couldn't be more than between 14 and 17 years old, and there may not have been any at all yet.
That's okay. We can discount whether the eugenics program had taken off by the Wolverine Annihilation and left long-term artifacts (improved mitochondria, absence of common genetic diseases, etc.) in warrior DNA.
The Clans simply wouldn't know what to look for, unless you want to assume the complete genome of every last Wolverine citizen had been saved in some database.
The Clans don't need the complete DNA sequences of every Wolverine citizen. They just need the DNA sequences of some Wolverine warriors before the Wolverines' annihilation.
Unless every record was lost during the Wolverine annihilation, the Clans likely had the DNA sequences of Clan Wolverine's (and every other Clan's) 40 or so founding warriors. And given the eugenics direction that Nick Kerensky was headed in, the Clans probably had the DNA sequence of every Wolverine warrior right up until the Wolverine annihilation.
Even if no Wolverine warriors survived to take part in the Wolverine exodus (which we know not to be true), it is unlikely that none of their relatives or descendants did. Their society was still transitioning from SLDF army to Clan. Wolverine warriors would have had both extended and nuclear families with whom they shared DNA sequences that could be traced back to those warriors. We could do that tracing over a half-dozen generations just using real-world technology today.
I think the only way you get a Wolverine-descended population in the Inner Sphere that cannot be traced back to the Wolverines genetically is if you assume that no Wolverine warriors and absolutely none of their children, siblings, nephews/nieces, and cousins were able to survive the Wolverine exodus. That strains credulity for me. It's like saying that a nuclear "Third World War" not only kills every US serviceman, but every member of those servicemen's extended and nuclear families. Certainly possible, but statistically unlikely.
Regardless, the Clans (or at least the Ghost Bears) have some Wolverine genetic signature that they're looking for among Blakie populations in the latter stages of the Jihad. It must be valid and testable. Otherwise, we have to assume that the Clans' genetic scientists are raving idiots.
Given that the Clans (or Bears) didn't find any Wolverine genetic markers among the Blakies and given that it's unlikely that every Wolverine warrior's extended and nuclear family member died in the Wolverine exodus, it would appear that Parradeu's journal was falsified somewhere along the line and that the Blakist cabal has little or nothing to do with the Wolverines.
(Unfortunately, in my storytelling aesthetic judgment, but that's another thread...)
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Summaries of the combined full content can be found on Sarna: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Betrayal_of_Ideals#Epilogues_.28BattleCorps_PDF_edition_only.29 (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Betrayal_of_Ideals#Epilogues_.28BattleCorps_PDF_edition_only.29)
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Thank you for those updates!
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Summaries of the combined full content can be found on Sarna: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Betrayal_of_Ideals#Epilogues_.28BattleCorps_PDF_edition_only.29 (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Betrayal_of_Ideals#Epilogues_.28BattleCorps_PDF_edition_only.29)
Strange. The print edition I have has both epilogue.
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Strange. The print edition I have has both epilogue.
The BC edition had a number of epilogue scenes (Trish Ebon reuniting two scout flottillas plus the straggler cadets, the Snow Raven khans supervising the reconstruction of Dhera Dun and Joyce Merrel's exchange with Nicholas where he argues that "it's not a lie if we all believe it", and the mass killing of two generations of Ghost Bear warrior cadets), plus author's notes called "Flotsam".
The print edition I have has none of these, and instead has the new 3041 epilogue with Explorer Corps Precentor Barton Bixby.
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Another two-bits to toss in for the Ebon Magistrate - Wolverine linkage.
I was going through the old "Iron Writer" stories recently and came across "Darkness," by Randall Bills. In it, an Ebon Magistrate agent has a covert meeting on an unnamed Deep Periphery world with a mysterious contact who gives her a data cube brimming with advanced tech. Date unknown, location unknown, contact identity unknown. The contact ends the meeting with the phrase "Bargained well."
Mysterious source of tech from "beyond the periphery" - check
Ebon Magistrate set up as the conduit for this tech-for-intel swap - check
Contact using Clan-esque phrasing - check
Certainly seems like Randall's intent was to add another tidbit tying the Magistracy to the Minnesota Tribe. Granted, the Iron Writer stories were all explicitly non-canon (due to having been written at GenCon without the benefit of a run past the fact-checking crew), but if there was anyone in 2007 who didn't need fact checkers to accurately slot something like this into the universe, it was Randall.
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The BC edition had a number of epilogue scenes (Trish Ebon reuniting two scout flottillas plus the straggler cadets, the Snow Raven khans supervising the reconstruction of Dhera Dun and Joyce Merrel's exchange with Nicholas where he argues that "it's not a lie if we all believe it", and the mass killing of two generations of Ghost Bear warrior cadets), plus author's notes called "Flotsam".
The print edition I have has none of these, and instead has the new 3041 epilogue with Explorer Corps Precentor Barton Bixby.
This is interesting - I think there are two different print versions of Betrayal of Ideals.
My print copy (purchased new on Amazon this summer; has three lines "Made in the USA / San Bernardino, CA / 09 April 2017" on the last page) has the Epilogue start on page 215 with the entirety of the Battlecorps epilogue, and then on page 230 flows into the Comstar 3041 content that wasn't in Battlecorps. Ends on page 234, and the Author's Notes start on 235.
It sounds like the early print versions (GenCon 2016 ?) didn't have the Battlecorps epilogue content. I wonder if that was intentional for some reason, or just one of those things?
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Indeed - my hardcopy, which was bought for me at GenCon 2016, only has 224 pages. It's a rather thin booklet.
Can anyone provide a cover photo of the 2nd edition?
Edit: Typo
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Indeen - my hardcopy, which was bought for me at GenCon 2016, only has 224 pages. It's a rather thin booklet.
Can anyone provide a cover photo of the 2nd edition?
I double checked when I made my order, and it was actually on 9 April. So the book was printed on the very day I demanded it.
I'm trying to attach what my copy looks like. If it can't be seen in the picture, it has Catalyst # 36044 on the spine and ISBN 9781520399621 on the back cover.
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If nothing else the copy shown confirms the Wolverines Blue, White, and Yellow camo scheme. Not sure how I feel about that.
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I'm trying to attach what my copy looks like. If it can't be seen in the picture, it has Catalyst # 36044 on the spine and ISBN 9781520399621 on the back cover.
Confirmed then - the book I hold in my hands looks pretty much similar, but has a thinner spine and the ISBN on my book is 9781942487579. (It's still Catalyst #36044 though.)
Interesting, didn't expect that. I'll go and update the Sarna article.
Thanks for posting the photo!
Edit: Could you kindly tell me how many total pages the thicker print edition has, back-to-back?
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My copy is ISBN 9781520399621
234 pages plus Blaine's afterword
The opening vignette is and the book ends with the Precentor wondering if anyone is returning to pay their respects.
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Confirmed then - the book I hold in my hands looks pretty much similar, but has a thinner spine and the ISBN on my book is 9781942487579. (It's still Catalyst #36044 though.)
Interesting, didn't expect that. I'll go and update the Sarna article.
Thanks for posting the photo!
Edit: Could you kindly tell me how many total pages the thicker print edition has, back-to-back?
Hmm! I really do wonder what the background to the GenCon edition is?!
At the beginning, the Op Klondike prologue starts on page 5. At the end Blaine's notes go 235-237. Some blank pages after that - not numbered, but if they were, the last page (the one that has the "Made in the USA" datestamp on it) would be 244.
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Hmm! I really do wonder what the background to the GenCon edition is?!
From my understanding, it was a small and rushed print run that was produced and express-delivered to GenCon just in time because for one reason or another the regular-issue print edition wasn't ready in time.
I don't know why the original BattleCorps epilogues were omitted; if I had to venture a guess I'd say it was to cut costs for this (presumably expensive) preproduction run.
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Which means the GenCon editions are true raritys now.
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Which means the GenCon editions are true raritys now.
I guess that's one way to look at it, but I keep thinking I may be better off waiting from now on so I know I'm getting the whole book. :-\