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BattleTech Game Systems => Aerospace Combat => Topic started by: DarthRads on 15 January 2012, 02:31:12

Title: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 15 January 2012, 02:31:12
Now that we have the image and know stats will (finally) be coming, I would like to ask the designers to please make it live up to the fluff and be a true terror.

That being said, what do we all think the Caspars were like? Terrors? Examples of Extreme Marketing and propganda, but average in reality?

Thoughts...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Stormfury on 15 January 2012, 04:09:40
Average in reality. I suspect what will make them scary will be the numbers of them available and a nuclear arsenal.

I would expect the Caspars, as long as they retain the Lola's weight, to put whatever remains of the ~110 kiloton cargo mass after mounting the drone/AI system towards larger engines and full armour more than towards a substantially more powerful weapons array.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Isanova on 15 January 2012, 10:59:08
Take the Lola III, bump it to 5/8, add more armor and switch to an All-Laser barrage. Imagine a ship with  26 NL/35s, 22 NL/45s and 18 NL/55s plus an array of Large Lasers for fighter defense and you have a largely independent warship.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 15 January 2012, 16:49:53
I think they'll still have a missile delivery system to nuke things...I recall playing with this idea a few years ago and giving a Lola hull the arsenal of a Cameron, thus putting Battlecruiser Firepower on a Destroyer hull to match the fluff...I agree speed will be 'upped'
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Billy Boy Mark II on 15 January 2012, 17:42:54
Not to appear stupid, but where do we get an image and confirmation stats will be coming?
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: snewsom2997 on 15 January 2012, 18:49:41
I believe in Liberation Terra Vo 1, 2, .....
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 15 January 2012, 20:19:04
There's a discussion in the General list on the art work, my phone won't let me link to it however...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Korzon77 on 15 January 2012, 23:24:43
Do't forget, Caspers also *ram*.  That in and of itself makes 'em scary :)
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: verybad on 15 January 2012, 23:30:01
I guess the AI design must have been outsourced to a Davion company...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: VhenRa on 16 January 2012, 03:07:44
Me, I am more hoping for Riga stats.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 16 January 2012, 04:23:31
Me, I am more hoping for Riga stats.

 The Destroyer/Carrier I assume...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: VhenRa on 16 January 2012, 04:32:20
Yeah.


Its kinda a pain not having it.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 January 2012, 05:15:15
Firepower of a battlecrusier in the nice tight package of a destroyer. Lot of room for weapons when you are not using the space and weight for the KF drive.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Stormfury on 16 January 2012, 05:25:34
We've done that dance many times. Monitors do not exist in the BT universe, and Caspars are confirmed as having K-F drives.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Isanova on 16 January 2012, 05:35:21
They were in use before the Kerensky campaign for the Hegemony. Pg 86 of the Star League SB, a TH transport division and a Royal Battlemech Division tried to re-take the planet, only to run into the vicious advanced SDS drones.

It mentions the Caspars surrounded and "sliced" a ship apart... to me that strikes of Laser firepower, and why I thought heavy on NLs. I just imagine any drone warship need be as independent as possible, which means no ammo to me.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 16 January 2012, 06:39:07
We've done that dance many times. Monitors do not exist in the BT universe, and Caspars are confirmed as having K-F drives.

Correct, I believe word from on high confirms this...can't find the exact quote though...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Stormfury on 16 January 2012, 07:11:44
The question was asked of Herb before the Great Forum Purge, yes.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: cray on 16 January 2012, 10:29:44
Lot of room for weapons when you are not using the space and weight for the KF drive.

If the Caspar's a WarShip, not a DropShip, then it has a KF drive.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 16 January 2012, 15:52:59
The question was asked of Herb before the Great Forum Purge, yes.

Knrw I'd seen it...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 16 January 2012, 16:29:56
We have the Stats for the Lola-I

I always went for simple conversion myself.

Take the base weapon (NAC10) and upgrade a step or 3 it to NAC20/25/30
Take the NL batteries & make the NPPCs
Upgrade the LL's to ER's

Max out the Armor tonnage.

4/6 speed is plenty since a drone has no need to restrict itself to "human" g-force limits.
The fact that they are supported in system means they can burn fuel as fast as they want too by doing nothing but overthrust moves.

48 Armor per section.
   16 NL55
    2  NL45
   14 NAC/10
   32 Large Laser
   
v/s

90-120 Armor per section
   18 Medium NPPC
   14 NAC/25
   32 ER Large Laser


Seriously, that is a WHOLE different beast & on high speed passes would be brutal.

And it doesn't involve new engines or SI or massive weapons placement changes.
Just some thicker armor & bigger barrels
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 16 January 2012, 23:22:26
We have the Stats for the Lola-I

I always went for simple conversion myself.

Take the base weapon (NAC10) and upgrade a step or 3 it to NAC20/25/30
Take the NL batteries & make the NPPCs
Upgrade the LL's to ER's

Max out the Armor tonnage.

4/6 speed is plenty since a drone has no need to restrict itself to "human" g-force limits.
The fact that they are supported in system means they can burn fuel as fast as they want too by doing nothing but overthrust moves.

48 Armor per section.
   16 NL55
    2  NL45
   14 NAC/10
   32 Large Laser
   
v/s

90-120 Armor per section
   18 Medium NPPC
   14 NAC/25
   32 ER Large Laser


Seriously, that is a WHOLE different beast & on high speed passes would be brutal.

And it doesn't involve new engines or SI or massive weapons placement changes.
Just some thicker armor & bigger barrels

Not bad...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: General308 on 16 January 2012, 23:37:18
If the Caspar's a WarShip, not a DropShip, then it has a KF drive.

Caspar Dropship's now that is a fun ideal
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 17 January 2012, 08:55:33
Based on what I could see of the new illustrations for the Lola's that had been converted into Caspars, it certainly appears that the transit drives have been upgraded at least some. 5/8 speed would be a reasonable assessment for the Caspars' speed. The armament probably would have been upgraded significantly, especially in regards to capital lasers and missiles while the armor may not have been upgraded very much at all. In fact, none of the canon has ever said anything about the Caspar's armor having been upgraded at all over that of the original Lola's armor levels.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Weirdo on 17 January 2012, 10:17:02
How do you think the Caspar's AI will work, especially compared to the Caspar II? Identical? Similar, but superior or inferior? Completely different?
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Isanova on 17 January 2012, 10:24:11
How do you think the Caspar's AI will work, especially compared to the Caspar II? Identical? Similar, but superior or inferior? Completely different?
I think the Original Caspar would have to be superior... I sort of think of the Caspar II as being the megamek computer, and the original Caspar as the computer in War Games. Caspars are quite capable of winning a battle entirely alone... Caspar II's really need assistance. I'm not sure how easily it would translate into game terms however.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 17 January 2012, 11:11:44
Yah, the implications from SLSB are that the original Caspar AI system was far more capable, at least that's how I read it.

The simplest rules could be to treat them as if they were equivilant to a manned unit, without the somewhat inflexible instruction set that the Caspar IIs have to follow.

Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: snewsom2997 on 17 January 2012, 11:54:42
Yah, the implications from SLSB are that the original Caspar AI system was far more capable, at least that's how I read it.

The simplest rules could be to treat them as if they were equivilant to a manned unit, without the somewhat inflexible instruction set that the Caspar IIs have to follow.

If just trying to mash something together, make Casper I 50% heavy than Casper II, and then have the piloting and gunnery Start at 3/4 with extra weight taking it to 2/3.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: VhenRa on 17 January 2012, 18:27:36
Well.


As stated in JHS: Terra, the Caspars needed to be linked into a coordinating computer system for best effect, just like the Caspar IIs. However unlike the Caspar IIs, the original Caspar system didn't need any humans in the command loop for that computer system. So I suppose you could stick the coordinating system onto a Caspar itself...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 17 January 2012, 18:32:46
the original Caspar system didn't need any humans in the command loop for that computer system. So I suppose you could stick the coordinating system onto a Caspar itself...
They didn't ?
I think the SLSB describes the SDS as being a combo of Drones & manpowered Ground Bases.
I think its also implied that the SLDF even trained the Amaris troops on how to work those bases which is why our SDS system was turned against us.
I would think the C-1 system would still have people in the loop, even if they do have a detailed system for autonomous processing that is more advanced than the C-2 stuff we have rules on.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Isanova on 17 January 2012, 19:12:35
Most of the Caspar-1 systems had independent higher-command computers, though they could be used with ground-based orders (retreat, attack priority, formation, etc)

Since almost all the original Caspar warship fleets operated as interception forces at or near the main jump points, they were too far away to have human command decisions... any messages would be minutes-delayed, and Caspars did not have mobile HPGs onboard.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Isanova on 17 January 2012, 19:15:36
Caspar mk. II did not have these higher-command intelligent computers (not quite AI, but multi-phasic computing as per SLSB) thus the need for nearby space stations, converted Naga ships, and ground-based command. If you took out the human command unit for the Caspars they would still fight, but would be "stuck" on their lower end functions (attack, maneuver, etc) and would not respond well to fleet tactics, not pick targets as intelligently, and would not retreat or regroup at all.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: VhenRa on 18 January 2012, 00:09:00
Where as the way it is described, an original Caspar could fight decently with only broad objectives from a human commander. Where as Caspar II required some micro-managing?
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Martius on 18 January 2012, 05:37:51
Quote
Star League pg. 61 says: These drone ships, dubbed Caspars, were designed to defend a planet against
enemy vessels. Using an ultrasophisticated computer system, the SDS could easily operate with only a handful of Humans
monitoring the system. The computers were capable of repairing themselves and of launching other drone ships from computerrun
spaceports

How much of that information is the usual 'the Starleague was better in everything' hyperbole I cannot say.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 18 January 2012, 06:07:10
One indication of the original Caspar's capabilites can be seen in TRO3057R in the entry for the Luxor:

"The automated combat drones identified the heavy cruisers as a major threat and concentrated their attacks. Recognizing this fact, the SLDF began to use the Luxors in a decoy role."

That the "automated combat drones" IDed the threat posed by the Luxors and not "the operators of the SDS network" shows that the Caspars were able to independently categorize threats based upon their capabilites and act accordingly.

However, the ability of the SLDF to use the Luxors as decoys suggests that there were limits to the Caspar's strategic thinking, which is where perhaps human operators should have intervened, and perhaps Amaris' troops were not as skilled as the SLDF staff they replaced.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 18 January 2012, 15:50:49
One indication of the original Caspar's capabilites can be seen in TRO3057R in the entry for the Luxor:

"The automated combat drones identified the heavy cruisers as a major threat and concentrated their attacks. Recognizing this fact, the SLDF began to use the Luxors in a decoy role."

That the "automated combat drones" IDed the threat posed by the Luxors and not "the operators of the SDS network" shows that the Caspars were able to independently categorize threats based upon their capabilites and act accordingly.

However, the ability of the SLDF to use the Luxors as decoys suggests that there were limits to the Caspar's strategic thinking, which is where perhaps human operators should have intervened, and perhaps Amaris' troops were not as skilled as the SLDF staff they replaced.

Good point...The SDS wasn't Skynet, but was capable of tactical decission making...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: truetanker on 18 January 2012, 18:08:40
Can someone put this through the ringer?

Using cost efficiency protocols, I find that the NL-55 and Medium NPPC with ER PPC, ER Medium and point defense Small Pulse Lasers to be far better than anything else. Plus you could chalk it up to fun.

TT
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 18 January 2012, 18:40:48
No ERMLs in Star League times.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Welshman on 18 January 2012, 19:13:12
No ERMLs in Star League times.

And ERPPC are after 2760
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: verybad on 18 January 2012, 19:23:20
Can someone put this through the ringer?

Using cost efficiency protocols, I find that the NL-55 and Medium NPPC with ER PPC, ER Medium and point defense Small Pulse Lasers to be far better than anything else. Plus you could chalk it up to fun.

TT

Well better or most cost efficient are dirty words with SLDF Weapon's Suppliers. Sure they had to meet some sort of standard, but Cost Efficiency...

That's why there are lobbyists today, and certainly some sort of equivalent in the 2700s.

I doubt they had much if any antimissile protection as they didn't do much for their standard ships carrying people back then, and Caspars were more attack! attack! attack! From my impression.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 19 January 2012, 02:16:55
Definitly see them as energy primary armament, with missile launchers for nukes and maybe a couple of twin NAC35 turret for close range 'haymaker' punch.

I see their standard tactic (supported by the description of the approach to Terra in the SLSB) as sniping at range, then charging in at high speed and delivering the kill blow.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 19 January 2012, 09:01:40
Definitly see them as energy primary armament, with missile launchers for nukes and maybe a couple of twin NAC35 turret for close range 'haymaker' punch.

I see their standard tactic (supported by the description of the approach to Terra in the SLSB) as sniping at range, then charging in at high speed and delivering the kill blow.

I did a little playing with the figures, upgraded the engines to give 5/8 movement, swapped out the NAC-10's for a total of fourteen NAC-30's in twin gun batteries, thirty two NL-55's in quad batteries, sixteen AR-10's in twin tube batteries, upgraded the armor to the max that the existing SI could handle of Ferro-Carbide armor, give her fifteen thousand tons of fuel for extended endurance, upgraded her heat sinks to enough double capacity units to handle all of the heat and still had some tonnage to spare for the drone control unit and kept the standard fighter/small craft complement.

I hate to say this, but I was in error here because I didn't first look at just how much tonnage that a drone control unit would take up. Using the minimum twelve percent of the WarShip's tonnage for the control unit, meant that I had to gut the Caspar's armament, not add to it, in order to have it move at 5/8 and still have roughly the same armor level.

Now, I know that some of you think that 4/6 acceleration is plenty for the Caspar. But it just doesn't fit the canon description of how Caspars were able to cut through SLDF formations with "unbelievable" speed. Yes, not having a crew aboard means that you can sustain accelerations for much longer....but you need 5/8 speed to make the kind of instantaneous accelerations and maneuvers that a Caspar would have to do to match the canon descriptions. For those people who kept saying that Lolas had enough tonnage available to upgrade engines, armor and weaponry all at the same time.....well, unless SLDF drone tech weighs half as much as the WOB stuff, you just can't do it....not at all.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 19 January 2012, 16:32:09
I did a little playing with the figures, upgraded the engines to give 5/8 movement, swapped out the NAC-10's for a total of fourteen NAC-30's in twin gun batteries, thirty two NL-55's in quad batteries, sixteen AR-10's in twin tube batteries, upgraded the armor to the max that the existing SI could handle of Ferro-Carbide armor, give her fifteen thousand tons of fuel for extended endurance, upgraded her heat sinks to enough double capacity units to handle all of the heat and still had some tonnage to spare for the drone control unit and kept the standard fighter/small craft complement.

I'd drop two NAC 30s and upgrade the barrels  bringing the total two twelve NAC 35s, thus conforming to my close range Haymaker. It can be done on the same mass...
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 21 January 2012, 21:14:35
I'd drop two NAC 30s and upgrade the barrels  bringing the total two twelve NAC 35s, thus conforming to my close range Haymaker. It can be done on the same mass...

That still doesn't work.....there's not enough mass to upgrade the armament and get a Caspar a speed that matches with the canon descriptions in the first place unfortunately....not using Caspar II control mass requirements anyway. Drone controls have to be a lot lighter for an original Caspar to work.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 22 January 2012, 02:44:51
That still doesn't work.....there's not enough mass to upgrade the armament and get a Caspar a speed that matches with the canon descriptions in the first place unfortunately....not using Caspar II control mass requirements anyway. Drone controls have to be a lot lighter for an original Caspar to work.

Your proposal had 12 Nac30

12xNAC30 = 42 000t
10xNAC35 = 40 000t

No weight issue at all...in fact you save 2000t which can be used to compensate for heavier shells.

Also, Caspars are 'fast' by the standard of the day (when most ships could do 3/5)...4/6 could be fast, though I'd like/to see them 'ungodly fast' (5/8). As they can sustain accelration without care for crews wellbeing, they can achieve a much higher velocity more quickly...





Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 22 January 2012, 09:13:48
Your proposal had 12 Nac30

12xNAC30 = 42 000t
10xNAC35 = 40 000t

No weight issue at all...in fact you save 2000t which can be used to compensate for heavier shells.

Also, Caspars are 'fast' by the standard of the day (when most ships could do 3/5)...4/6 could be fast, though I'd like/to see them 'ungodly fast' (5/8). As they can sustain accelration without care for crews wellbeing, they can achieve a much higher velocity more quickly...

The problem is that while 4/6 acceleration continued on for a large number of turns in a single vector (direction) would make for a very fast initial pass, Caspars were described as being able to also maneuver very quickly. That means that you have to have a lot of instantaneous acceleration points to change vectors, especially if you want to make that second or fifth pass on an enemy formation. 4/6 just doesn't cut it because if you acceleration for ten turns in a single vector for that first pass at 3G, it will take you another ten turns just to get stopped relative to your initial speed, then you have to turn around and acceleration for anywhere from twelve to eighteen turns just to get back in range for a second pass....if you are lucky. One Caspar attack per twenty-two to twenty-eight turns is not what the canon describes at all. You NEED higher acceleration as in 5/8 or faster to make a Casper operate as the canon describes.

Unless the drone equipment used by the SLDF is a LOT lighter than the WOB stuff, there's not going to be enough tonnage for more than four NAC-30's at all, much less a ten NAC-35's or any other medium/heavy NAC battery.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Welshman on 22 January 2012, 11:21:45
One Caspar attack per twenty-two to twenty-eight turns is not what the canon describes at all. You NEED higher acceleration as in 5/8 or faster to make a Casper operate as the canon describes..

I'm fairly certain that Canon has never spoken in any time scales. The famous admirals report sums up an entire burn in to the system in a few paragraphs.

HBSL existed before there was anything but the original aerospace fighter rules.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 22 January 2012, 13:41:24
One Caspar attack per twenty-two to twenty-eight turns is not what the canon describes at all. You NEED higher acceleration as in 5/8 or faster to make a Casper operate as the canon describes.

Even ignoring Welshman's point, I'd also point out that there were many Caspars -  56 vs 8 WarShips, with those 8 split up into 2 groups - so even if an individual drone took a long time to reengage, it's entirely possible for there to be a multiple attacks due to follow-on drones, perhaps some going fast and some going slow, that could also account for the fight as described.

That first "incredibly swift pass" could have been just one group that built up velocity (or got in front and decelerated hard so that the SLDF ships overran them) in advance of the start of the attacks, blowing through the SLDF formation and maybe even not returning to the fight until much later.

It's only an assumption that the Capsars which made the initial "incredibly swift pass" are the ones that attacked Braso's flagship, then the Rex and then the transports, which do appear more likely from the wording to be a trio of linked attacks. Although that first pass and the trio of attacks are in the same paragraph, the wording doesn't preclude them being discrete events, and it could have been a second group moving at a slower speed, or even multiple groups. Since we have no exact knowledge of the layout of the SLDF formation, it's entirely possible that the flagship-to-Rex-to-transport attack run could have been performed by a relatively linear attack, with little or no maneuvering by the Caspars as they pass through the formation, engaging targets as they come into range, until they change vector to retreat after the surviving escort WarShips drive them away.

Of course, on the last point, given that this was the subjective personal opinion of Braso, rather than being stated in objective text, we don't really know whether her ships truely did force the Caspars to scatter after killing two transports, it could have been that the drones had just finished their planned attack run and were re-vectoring anyway. Despite being a decorated officer, etc she could have just been putting a brave face on what was turning out to be a massacre.

As a last note, with Braso's taskforce limited to 1.5Gs due to the pair of 2/3 Aegis cruisers, that's means that 4/6 Caspars are still going to provide the 1.5G excess that you're arguing for by instead comparing 5/8 to 3/5.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Welshman on 22 January 2012, 14:33:20
And when transporting troops, you tend to run at 1G except for combat maneuvers. This prevents wearing out your crew and troops. Caspars never have to slow down, as they have no squishies to worry about.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 24 January 2012, 09:47:09
Admiral Braso had to have had extensive experience over the years working with 4/6 WarShips like the Lola and Vincent. Yet, he uses such superlatives when describing the agility of the slashing attacks and reattacks of the Caspars as though he had never seen such swiftness before. I have to continue to strongly believe that Caspar transit drives were upgraded to at least 5/8 acceleration. This is particularly the case after seeing the latest canon illustrations of Caspars. Comparing them with older illustrations of Lolas with the dual sensor array towers, the latest Caspars have significantly larger transit drives. These Caspars were clearly based on the illustrations of the illustrations of the Lola I and II, not the Lola III also.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Welshman on 24 January 2012, 13:51:19
Admiral Braso had to have had extensive experience over the years working

With Caspars... Remember, they are not new. The report is a subjective based, in the moment report. Always be careful with these kinds of reports.

Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 28 January 2012, 21:28:01
With Caspars... Remember, they are not new. The report is a subjective based, in the moment report. Always be careful with these kinds of reports.

I know, but the math just doesn't add up for Caspars who are only marginally faster than Braso's ships to be able to race in at high velocity, kill that velocity very quickly and reengage....then repeat this many multiple times before the SLDF force arrives at the planet.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 28 January 2012, 21:37:24
And again, you're making the assumption that it's just one attack wave, rather than multiple groups attacking in sequence, quite possibly with different velocities and from different directions.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Aerohead on 28 January 2012, 21:47:37
Perhaps I am making a very uneducated statement here, but arent battletech sensors capable of tracking more than one incomming battle group or squadron??  I don"t buy that a captain would in ANY way be confused by multiple target groups at range, or that somehow these Caspar groups could mask or hide their approach to trick a commander into thinking its just one group.  Am I overstating the ability of battletech sensors? 

Seriously, this is not a rhetorical question, I am having trouble visualizing this.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 28 January 2012, 23:34:29
Well to use the Brasso example,  he had a total of 8 warships.
Against 50+ Caspars.

All 50 had gathered near the planet by the time he was on final approach IIRC from the story.

Its not too far off to imagine them breaking off into groups of 10 ships and hitting Brasso's force from different angles.

Being under fire from even 10 at one time is more than his force could handle IMHO.
And having them not stop as wave after wave passes through his formation and then take off only to have another wave hit him while the last is turning around.

Yeah, I can see where Sillybrit is coming from
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 29 January 2012, 05:12:07
@Aerohead:

The section in the SLSB when Admiral Amanda Braso describes the Caspars' attacks on her (just a hint for those who're saying Braso's a guy  ;) ) doesn't make any description of the formation or formations being used by the Caspars, while what it says about Braso's Flotilla is that it's split into two groups, each with a mix of WarShips and "troop transports", ie. DropShips.

My main point is that due to the lack of clear, unambiguous detail in the text, we cannot be certain exactly how the Caspars conducted their attacks and how the formation of Braso's ships may have influenced their movements. Was it a single wave of Caspars with the battle akin to a dogfight? Did the Caspars instead attack in waves, each group adapting to the situation due to prior attacks?

The text doesn't clearly state one way or the other, so lack of proof/proof of lack and all that.  All we can be certain of is that the Caspars must have split into at least two groups before battle joined, because they attacked both of Braso's detachments, and we know that at one point during the battle with Braso's own detachment that the Caspars attacking them organized again into two groups, one going after the surviving WarShips and the other after the transports.

So, if we can't be certain exactly how the Caspars attacked, how can we really use Braso's log to say for certain that they have a certain maneuver capability, ie. Thrust? Reading the log as a standalone document allows either the single wave or the multiple wave ideas, with neither being favored more than the other. However, once we take into account the construction rules, plus the description of the Caspars elsewhere in the SLDB, I believe it makes high Thrust unlikely, which means in turn that the single wave idea is also unlikely.

But maybe TPTB will come up with something that will surprise us all. Perhaps it was only the early models of Caspar that were battlecruiser firepower packed into a Lola's frame, and by the time we get to the mid-28th century, the latest models were larger and thus could retain the same firepower at a higher Thrust, with Braso not mentioning that because to her and her intended readers, ie. fellow SLN officers, it would have been obvious. Or perhaps the Hegemony came up with something amazing, and the Caspars were fitted with a lighter KF drive, maybe one less capable than a full-sized Compact KF drive.

Or maybe, the SLSB will be counted as flawed, like other older House books, with the in-universe explanation that ComStar had been up to their usual tricks.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Aerohead on 29 January 2012, 11:44:17
Personally I do not think the Caspars have any surprisingly high thrust rating myself.  I suspect the speed and surprising maneuverability is an artifact of their ability to commit to max thrust over time without the need to protect a crew from the effects of high G.  I imagine this would be akin to an F-15 squadron going head to head with a F-22.  While not necessarily faster, the new thrust vectoring technology would indeed be a surprise worthy of note in debriefing.

In neither situation would the commanders or pilots be confused by the numbers, direction, or disposition of the force they were encountering.

I would never question a woman on her word either.  So lets just call her description solid gold!   ;)
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 29 January 2012, 13:45:08
Well, we do have some evidence to question Braso's judgement, given that she led her unit in a rather unprofessional dash back to the Hegemony, even against orders judging by other text in the SLSB. Some might argue that splitting her Flotilla, even if for good intentions, was an equally unwise call given the disparity in numbers between the Caspars and her ships. Even if the Capsars were plain vanilla Lola IIIs, 28 of those against a Black Lion or Potemkin, an Aegis, 2 Lola IIIs and assorted DropShips (assuming that was the split) would have still been a massacre, so there seemed little to gain.

That she was a 30 year veteran in the SLN doesn't necessarily mean that much either, given that it was a peacetime navy for the majority of her career, and even when the Periphery uprising did occur it's entirely possible that she had little if any opportunity to exercise command in a full up naval battle like what she encountered over Epsilon Eridani. The Periphery had relatively few WarShips at the time, and Braso was in command of an Armed Transport Flotilla after all, not a combat unit tasked specifically to go after enemy naval forces.

The WarShips she had may have been fine against possible Periphery opposition, but against SDS networks she should have known that they had no chance and her own log notes that nobody was surprised when Epsilon Eridani's SDS rejected her ID codes, so she already knew that it was almost certain to be in enemy hands. That right there, even more than her apparently disobeying orders in a mad cap rush back to the Hegemony, raises big questions in my mind.

There's also no indication of when and how she'd earned her Naval Medal of Valor - I don't think it's even known just where D'Van's Star is located - it could have easily been while she was a less senior officer, or for an act of bravery that had little to do with her ability command or her judgement.

That's not to say that Braso couldn't have been a skilled and effective commander, I'm just again pointing out that we have so little information and that there's some unanswered issues in her conduct, that it's impossible to say for 100% certain how reliable the testimony in her log actually was.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: JPArbiter on 31 January 2012, 16:16:37
Now that we have the image and know stats will (finally) be coming, I would like to ask the designers to please make it live up to the fluff and be a true terror.

That being said, what do we all think the Caspars were like? Terrors? Examples of Extreme Marketing and propganda, but average in reality?

Thoughts...

the Latter.  the entire point of any unmanned combat system is to make them cheap and in quantity.  though based off of the Lola III hull, I expect thier capabilities to be more in line with the Lola I or II more for the reason of cost cutting then anything else.

I also fail to see why Caspars would have to be "ammo independant"  these suckers would need to be pulled into dock and maintained more studiously then a warship with a crew, thus a autocannon and capital missle based armament would 1) be cheaper and 2) be realistic since you can just swap out rounds every time you bring a squadron in for maintenance.  these things are not meant to float out there for decades on end after all.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Welshman on 31 January 2012, 16:51:52
the Latter.  the entire point of any unmanned combat system is to make them cheap and in quantity.  though based off of the Lola III hull, I expect thier capabilities to be more in line with the Lola I or II more for the reason of cost cutting then anything else.

I'm not sure that was the intent of the Caspar system. The huge cost of the system has been raised more than once and Johnathan Cameron wasn't exactly worried about manpower. He was terrified of invasion (the dreams) and wanted every advantage he could get.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Weirdo on 31 January 2012, 16:54:54
Besides, this is also the government that built 400 Sovetskii Soyuz as part of their plan to rapidly build up their navy on a budget. Cheap and mass-produced are two terms with very different meanings for the Star League as compared to...well, any other organization in history.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 01 February 2012, 09:51:15
the Latter.  the entire point of any unmanned combat system is to make them cheap and in quantity.  though based off of the Lola III hull, I expect thier capabilities to be more in line with the Lola I or II more for the reason of cost cutting then anything else.

I also fail to see why Caspars would have to be "ammo independant"  these suckers would need to be pulled into dock and maintained more studiously then a warship with a crew, thus a autocannon and capital missle based armament would 1) be cheaper and 2) be realistic since you can just swap out rounds every time you bring a squadron in for maintenance.  these things are not meant to float out there for decades on end after all.

The canon said that Caspars used lasers and missiles. Actually, nothing was mentioned at all about the Caspars using NAC's, N-PPC's or N-Gauss Rifles either for that matter.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Weirdo on 01 February 2012, 09:55:53
On the other hand, we also have nothing saying they never mounted such gear. Honestly, things like that are questions that won't be answered until the stats are released.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Gaiiten on 01 February 2012, 10:36:19
I'm not sure that was the intent of the Caspar system. The huge cost of the system has been raised more than once and Johnathan Cameron wasn't exactly worried about manpower. He was terrified of invasion (the dreams) and wanted every advantage he could get.

But why did he want an automated system?
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Welshman on 01 February 2012, 11:24:25
But why did he want an automated system?

An open question that may never be answered. My personal opinion, which I've held for twenty years and is not in any way an official Catalyst statement, is that it was a matter of trust. Cameron wanted a system he had complete control over. After all the Hegemony began when the military got fed up with the Terran Alliance and started shooting up Terra from their WarShips.

Again, this is strictly a personal opinion which may or may not be reality. It is one I've held since first reading HBSL in the... whenever it came out.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Stormfury on 01 February 2012, 11:28:00
Quote
But why did he want an automated system?

Because he was nuts.

And because the Caspar system ensured that every vessel and battle group would be commanded by an exceptionally skilled "individual" thanks to the whole affair being based on the neural patterns of an extremely good admiral. As a bonus, the Caspars could not be subverted if it came to that, unlike the regular fleet.

Besides, some people just get fixated.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 01 February 2012, 18:29:02
An open question that may never be answered. My personal opinion, which I've held for twenty years and is not in any way an official Catalyst statement, is that it was a matter of trust. Cameron wanted a system he had complete control over. After all the Hegemony began when the military got fed up with the Terran Alliance and started shooting up Terra from their WarShips.

Again, this is strictly a personal opinion which may or may not be reality. It is one I've held since first reading HBSL in the... whenever it came out.

1988 I believe...

And I think that is a pretty good theory. Even if JCameron couldn't control the whole thing himself, he could limit control to just those he trusted.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 01 February 2012, 18:43:33
The canon said that Caspars used lasers and missiles. Actually, nothing was mentioned at all about the Caspars using NAC's, N-PPC's or N-Gauss Rifles either for that matter.

Negative.
  Canon has a description of lasers & missiles passing between 2 groups of ships.
  It in no way means that they HAD to come from the Caspars.
  Nor does it mean they are Capital Class weapons.
  Technically it could have been ML's and LRM5's for all we know.

Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Khymerion on 01 February 2012, 18:53:10
Negative.
  Canon has a description of lasers & missiles passing between 2 groups of ships.
  It in no way means that they HAD to come from the Caspars.
  Nor does it mean they are Capital Class weapons.
  Technically it could have been ML's and LRM5's for all we know.

Humorously, that would be an interesting Caspar...  warship crews staring at this big warship cruising in, totally silent in terms of weapons till suddenly,  some kind of death star scale focusing laser array powers up as all the medium lasers open up at once.   Or the stars go dark and are replaced for a moment from all the LRM-5s being fired at once filling the void with missile contrails.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 02 February 2012, 22:23:04
Negative.
  Canon has a description of lasers & missiles passing between 2 groups of ships.
  It in no way means that they HAD to come from the Caspars.
  Nor does it mean they are Capital Class weapons.
  Technically it could have been ML's and LRM5's for all we know.

Somehow, I really, really doubt that.....
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 02 February 2012, 23:23:59
It would be rather absurd to assume that Caspars only mounted lasers and missiles purely on the basis of the SLSB passage that describes the exchange of fire between the two fleets as "the flash of lasers and the angry exhausts of missiles". After all, that passage makes no mention of the NACs, NGRs and NPPCs that we know as a 100% fact were mounted on various SLDF WarShip classes. So are we to redesign the Aegis, Black Lion, McKenna, etc just because they're equipped with weapons whose effects aren't mentioned in that one sentence?

It's just the descriptive text the writer happened to use, probably without really thinking anything more of it, and certainly not intending it to set the armament limits of WarShips that were still as yet unpublished at the time SLSB was produced.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 03 February 2012, 09:06:06
Actually, it makes a great deal of sense that the Caspars were primarily armed with capital lasers and missiles. The lasers give Caspars weapons that do not require ammunition, so when a Caspar is fighting guerilla-style, without access to ready supplies of ammunition, they can keep on fighting. The capital missiles make sense for two reasons.... to counter enemy fighters but even more importantly to launch nukes.

Yes, the WarShips being attacked carried NAC's and N-PPC's in many cases, but that's not what was mentioned being utilized in the canon quote. A Caspar could have more firepower per ton if it were to use primarily medium to heavy NAC's as their primary armament, of course.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 03 February 2012, 12:50:38
But why not apply those same standards to NPPCs, which also have no need for ammo?

And even if guerilla style tactics were a concern, of which that is just purely speculation, then given that NAC and NGR ammo mass is so relatively tiny, the Caspars could easily be loaded with 100s of rounds per weapon. To forestall protests that it'd be an unnecessary or inefficient use of mass, I'd point out that the capital missiles you're suggesting for mere anti-fighter use are far heavier than NAC/NGR shells, and would be required in large numbers to be worthwhile given that ASFs are far more numerous than WarShips and DropShips. I'd say that stocking up for anti-fighter capital missile shots is inefficient, if streamlining for a guerilla role is a concern.

Besides which, while not as accurate as capital missiles when used against fighters and other small targets, the capital guns have the wonderful advantage that the fighters they hit typically die with a single hit for all but the weakest bays, instead of requiring multiple hits to kill or cripple. The Black Lion, for example, the archetypal NAC-boat, is a formidable anti-fighter platform. In addition to that, the Caspars would also be supported by Blackwasps, giving them their own fighter cover if they needed it.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: JPArbiter on 03 February 2012, 14:17:36
I should also point out another fallacy about the Caspar System.  yes it is true that the ships don't need a crew per say, but they will need a small crew and control compartment for one simple reason.  since "Monitors" (warships without FTL systems) do not exist, and control of the Caspar system would mean it would be important to build from a single well guarded location, that means that the Drones have to jump themselves to their designated systems.

Couple THAT with the fact that in J:FR it was stated that Caspar Drones AI could not cope with jumps (specifically disorientation from shifting locations in space so quickly) then the beasties would have to be moved out while the computers are shut down, THEN activated, go through shakedowns and cut loose.

this basically means that for an M5 Drone, in addition to the robotic control system, they will still need the "live" Control system as well, though no crew compartments.  or they handwave that an advanced dropship tethered to a drone guided it where it was supposed to go prior to activation
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Stormfury on 04 February 2012, 00:32:59
OTOH, which Caspar system was that referring to? The one the Star League had, or the flawed copy the Blakists managed to scrape together?
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 04 February 2012, 00:58:13
OTOH, which Caspar system was that referring to? The one the Star League had, or the flawed copy the Blakists managed to scrape together?

Will look for the exact quote, but n the write-up for Caspar IIIs in Final Reckoning I think t makes reference to this being a problem for M5s as well
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: tekteam26 on 04 February 2012, 20:37:22
OTOH, which Caspar system was that referring to? The one the Star League had, or the flawed copy the Blakists managed to scrape together?

I am hoping that the real Star League control system is much more advanced and smaller than the Blakist one because otherwise you can't get a Caspar to do all of the things described under the canon. If you look at the new illustrations of the Caspars and compare them to the original Lola images with the sensor towers forward, it is extremely clear that the drive sections have been significantly upgraded too.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 04 February 2012, 23:27:04
Even the SL era Caspar system could not perform jumps without human crews. The AI would become disorientated according to Final Reckoning.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 10 February 2012, 19:44:35
Somehow, I really, really doubt that.....
I do to.
But the point still stands that making assumptions based on that tiny bit of fluffed out battle description would be foolish and unreliable.

NOW,  if that description was
Quote
The M5's gathered at extreme range from the incoming SLDF fleet & began to shell the enemy warships with Naval Gauss fire at long range
, then THAT, I would say, is worthy of making assumptions about armament.

But what we got ?
Well SB said it best, we aren't going out and assuming that the only incoming warships were armed with Naval Lasers & Missiles are we?


a Caspar is fighting guerilla-style, without access to ready supplies of ammunition, they can keep on fighting. 
I'm not seeing Caspars ever fighting Guerrilla style.  (Just my opinion)
They gather into a massive formation, we know this from both Brasso & the Terra invasion.
Then they pound the crap out of the enemy with high speed passes.
Either they win or they get wiped out.
Running off into the nether reaches of a system only to come back later & start raiding shipping lanes ?? 
Not unless the Humans in the ground bases are giving them those kinds of orders.
And really, if you have made the Caspars retreat, then you have already leared a path to drop divisions of troops onto the world.  Which means said ground bases are likely getting invaded soon and the next orders will be coming from Friendlies.


Quote
The capital missiles make sense ....  to launch nukes.
You think its a good idea to give Nukes to Robots ?
I'm having flashbacks to the Terminator series right now.....
Too much room for error there IMHO.  (The dang things already trashed merchants when they couldn't read the IFF codes right.)

I don't want them thinking my City is an "enemy ground troops concentration" and nuking civvies from orbit.  Not to mention there were rules about using Nukes close to the planet, and from what we have seen, the Caspars seemed to gather around the planet.

Caspars were deployed in large #s, they didn't need to depend on Nukes, they had Firepower, #'s, Speed, & Endurance on their side.  (Again, just my opinion)

Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 10 February 2012, 19:52:49
Even the SL era Caspar system could not perform jumps without human crews. The AI would become disorientated according to Final Reckoning.
Which makes total sense really.
Do you want them making jumps all by themselves ?
What happens when they misjump to the wrong system?
How do they transfer control to a new SDS base ?

We know they were deployed all over the TH.
It makes sense that fleets of them would be built/remodeled at/near Terran shipyards and then transferred (by human crews) out to wherever they were to be stationed at and then control transferred over to ground bases at the new planet.


I can even picture them being transferred in times of emergency.
Say the TH & House Liao start having a spat over some worlds.
The TH can move some M5 flotillas from the inner/opposite side of the TH out to the edges to reinforce neighboring systems to the invasion area.
Sure, they don't get deployed offensively but they have the ability to create a thicker band of defense in case the invaders keep moving deeper into your territory.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 February 2012, 21:49:40
I thought the M5 Drone's were more like what I would call Monitors. Size of a warship, but couldn't jump.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: sillybrit on 10 February 2012, 22:16:24
No such unit type in BattleTech. If it's WarShip-sized, then it has a KF Drive and thus can potentially jump; if it doesn't have a KF Drive, then it's a DropShip.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 11 February 2012, 00:37:27
I thought the M5 Drone's were more like what I would call Monitors. Size of a warship, but couldn't jump.

This has been mentioned earlier, but the Nuke Lord has given us the word (before the boards got re-done) that Caspars are WarShips and therefore have a KF Drive
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Welshman on 11 February 2012, 00:49:41
This has been mentioned earlier, but the Nuke Lord has given us the word (before the boards got re-done) that Caspars are WarShips and therefore have a KF Drive

Correct. WarShip hulls require a KF drive as part of their base construction, whether or not they use them.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 12 February 2012, 14:22:58
I thought the M5 Drone's were more like what I would call Monitors. Size of a warship, but couldn't jump.
Negative, no such unit exists in any canon BT rules.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: DarthRads on 12 February 2012, 16:24:59
Correct. WarShip hulls require a KF drive as part of their base construction, whether or not they use them.

According to my own personnal fluff, the KF drive runs rhe length of the ship and serves as the 'spine' of large ships. Therefore vessels over 100kt cannot be built without them.
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 February 2012, 18:39:09
You think its a good idea to give Nukes to Robots ?
I'm having flashbacks to the Terminator series right now.....
Too much room for error there IMHO.  (The dang things already trashed merchants when they couldn't read the IFF codes right.)

I don't want them thinking my City is an "enemy ground troops concentration" and nuking civvies from orbit.  Not to mention there were rules about using Nukes close to the planet, and from what we have seen, the Caspars seemed to gather around the planet.

Caspars were deployed in large #s, they didn't need to depend on Nukes, they had Firepower, #'s, Speed, & Endurance on their side.  (Again, just my opinion)

Caspars were mobile deep space defenses for a space defense system. it wouldn't be hard to program them to ignore ground units entirely, since they generally fight in interplanetary space or near jump points. likewise it wouldn't be hard to program them to only use nukes against enemy warships if cleared by the ground station first.

and while caspars were deployed in large numbers, so were other warships. this was the age of actual fleets, when invasion forces often had scores of warships and hundreds of dropships. and as we see in the canon encounters with caspars, invasion forces against caspar defended systems had an order of magnitude more. even subject to 'standard issue stupid pills' the designers would have to be aware of how ther defenses could be swamped by a superior force, and at least plan for the option of issuing nuclear weapons to their defensive drones as a force modifier. after all, when it comes to war "if you aint cheating, you aint trying"
Title: Re: The M5 Drone WarShip
Post by: Hellraiser on 12 February 2012, 20:34:41
Caspars were mobile deep space defenses for a space defense system. it wouldn't be hard to program them to ignore ground units entirely, since they generally fight in interplanetary space or near jump points. likewise it wouldn't be hard to program them to only use nukes against enemy warships if cleared by the ground station first. 
It shouldn't have been hard for them to be programed to not shoot up Merchant ships, but they still did.  Mistakes Happen, Computers aren't perfect.
Again, do you really want the fall out, literal & figurative, that comes from giving Nukes to Robots?

Note, the canon fluff has them gathering around the destination planet, not the jump points.


Quote
and while caspars were deployed in large numbers, so were other warships. this was the age of actual fleets, when invasion forces often had scores of warships and hundreds of dropships. and as we see in the canon encounters with caspars, invasion forces against caspar defended systems had an order of magnitude more. even subject to 'standard issue stupid pills' the designers would have to be aware of how ther defenses could be swamped by a superior force, and at least plan for the option of issuing nuclear weapons to their defensive drones as a force modifier. after all, when it comes to war "if you aint cheating, you aint trying"
And I can cheat very easily with my Maned Human Controlled non Robotic standard Issue Warships.
Or are you under the assumption that the 2000+ Warship SLDF Navy didn't still have Warships deployed in nearly every system.

I don't need to give nukes to my 50 Caspars, its a rare enough weapon that having them deployed on my "Insert Capital Missile or ASF carrying Warship here" should be enough.

The Caspars were damned effective when having to face the entire SLDF themselves after being taken over by Amaris, and unthinkable & unplanned for situation.
What chance did a single House Fleet have against a typical SLDF + Caspar defensive force ?
  (none)