Author Topic: Can ASFs use special ammo?  (Read 4028 times)

Alan Grant

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Can ASFs use special ammo?
« on: 02 June 2011, 14:05:42 »
There has been some debate about this among friends. Can Aerospace Fighters use special ammo (e.g. semi-guided or Thunder LRM rounds). Or cluster ammo for  LBX autocannons.

Someone thought they saw something that said standard ammo only.

Stormfury

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #1 on: 02 June 2011, 16:40:49 »
Total Warfare, p. 238: "Aerospace units may not use special munitions."

The only "exception," such as it is, comes for Artemis IV (or V)-guided missiles.

LB-X cannons are treated as always firing Cluster rounds.

ATMs only fire Standard ammo.

R-A/Cs and U-A/Cs are treated as always firing at the maximum rate.

MMLs must choose between loading all LRM or all SRM ammunition prior to the start of play.

ASF combat is abstracted. I certainly wouldn't mind having special ammunition (although some kinds have no effect on AeroSpace units) available, but it adds additional complications to the game that the abstraction is attempting to avoid.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #2 on: 02 June 2011, 19:36:04 »
There are no rules for using nonstandard ammo in the AeroTech game.

I know of no UNIVERSAL idea for why they cannot be used and seem to remember stories in fiction that reference such use.

In short, I'd say the game doesn't cover it, no optional rules cover it, but if you wanted to do it, it is consistent with the universe I think.  :)

Were I to do it, I would just port the rules over from BattleTech and use them with the space ships.  hehehe.
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Demos

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #3 on: 03 June 2011, 08:23:31 »

ATMs only fire Standard ammo.

MMLs must choose between loading all LRM or all SRM ammunition prior to the start of play.

You must have an other book than me.
@ATM: DV are calculated using LR ammo for extreme(long-range, standard ammo for medium range and HE ammo for short range
@MML: DV are LRM ammo for long/medium range and SRM ammo for short range.

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Stormfury

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #4 on: 03 June 2011, 08:32:20 »
I'm looking at it now. Just as an example, the Rusalka Dominus the MMLs are listed as having Long Range and a DV of 7 (ie, are assumed to be firing LRM ammo). This is not increased at short range.

P. 341-342 of Tech Manual covers Inner Sphere weapons; MMLs are listed as either LRM or SRM. The Clan ATMs over on p. 343 have their damage values set for standard ATM ammunition and are likewise unable to select alternate loads.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

A. Lurker

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #5 on: 03 June 2011, 09:05:37 »
Look at the tables in the back of Total Warfare (pp. 303-304). ATMs clearly have aerospace range and damage values listed for all their individual ammo types, and the same holds true for MMLs firing either LRMs or SRMs.

There's also TechManual p. 194 gently informing us that if an ATM mounted on a non-fighter aerospace unit wants to make use of alternate munitions, that unit needs to carry at least ten shots' worth of each type...now, if ER and HE ammo couldn't be used at all in the first place, why would that bit of text be there?

Stormfury

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #6 on: 03 June 2011, 18:09:56 »
Quote
There's also TechManual p. 194 gently informing us that if an ATM mounted on a non-fighter aerospace unit wants to make use of alternate munitions, that unit needs to carry at least ten shots' worth of each type...now, if ER and HE ammo couldn't be used at all in the first place, why would that bit of text be there?

And that's the key element in that section of text. Non-fighter.

For whatever reason, ASFs (per TW) are not allowed to do so.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

A. Lurker

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #7 on: 04 June 2011, 01:36:02 »
And that's the key element in that section of text. Non-fighter.

For whatever reason, ASFs (per TW) are not allowed to do so.

Cite, please.

Stormfury

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #8 on: 04 June 2011, 03:10:34 »
As I said in my first post to the thread, p. 238, Total Warfare.

If you look at the TW table there are some special rules for ATMs, and it says that if each ATM has at least one ton of each ammunition type per launcher they deal 50% normal damage at Extreme range and 50% additional damage at Short. Perhaps certain fighters do not allocate the minimum one ton of ammo type per launcher?
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

A. Lurker

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #9 on: 04 June 2011, 03:35:36 »
Since Artemis IV clearly still works in aerospace combat, page 238 can't be all-encompassing. Likewise, standard LRMs and SRMs for MMLs can't very well be "special ammunition" by definition.

Whether ER and HE ammo for ATMs even count as "special" is unclear. The ATM writeup casually refers to them as such...but then they don't show up on the list of "special munitions" running from page 140 to 142.

If you look at the TW table there are some special rules for ATMs, and it says that if each ATM has at least one ton of each ammunition type per launcher they deal 50% normal damage at Extreme range and 50% additional damage at Short. Perhaps certain fighters do not allocate the minimum one ton of ammo type per launcher?

And if you look closely, you'll find that that text refers specifically to ATM weapon bays. There's a bit just preceding it that deals specifically with non-bay ATMs in aerospace combat, and that one does in fact suggest that switching (and adjusting range and damage accordingly) is possible.

FedComGirl

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #10 on: 04 June 2011, 09:04:47 »
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Since Artemis IV clearly still works in aerospace combat, page 238 can't be all-encompassing. Likewise, standard LRMs and SRMs for MMLs can't very well be "special ammunition" by definition.

You might want to ask TPTB if Artemis equipped missiles can be used by fighters, since they're classed as special ammunition. Why mount an Artemis IV FCS on your fighter if you can't use the ammo? Artemis missile might be the exception to the rule but even then I doubt you'll be able to switch between ammos.

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Whether ER and HE ammo for ATMs even count as "special" is unclear. The ATM writeup casually refers to them as such...but then they don't show up on the list of "special munitions" running from page 140 to 142.

Probably because they're exclusive to one type of launcher. That there is a standard ammo for the ATM indicates that the ER and HE ammos are special.

Quote
And if you look closely, you'll find that that text refers specifically to ATM weapon bays. There's a bit just preceding it that deals specifically with non-bay ATMs in aerospace combat, and that one does in fact suggest that switching (and adjusting range and damage accordingly) is possible.

Actually the part about Weapons Bays is further down the page, so the non-fighter part still applies. In non-fighters the other ATM ammos can be used if the minimum amount of ammo is provided.

A. Lurker

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #11 on: 04 June 2011, 09:39:20 »
You might want to ask TPTB if Artemis equipped missiles can be used by fighters, since they're classed as special ammunition. Why mount an Artemis IV FCS on your fighter if you can't use the ammo? Artemis missile might be the exception to the rule but even then I doubt you'll be able to switch between ammos.

Since Artemis IV equipped launchers do get increased aerospace attack values, I consider that pretty much a given. Otherwise you'd be saying that IN SPACE!!!, Artemis IV can suddenly give standard missiles the same boost it needs special ammo for on the ground...

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Actually the part about Weapons Bays is further down the page, so the non-fighter part still applies. In non-fighters the other ATM ammos can be used if the minimum amount of ammo is provided.

Bzzzt. I was referring to fine print at the bottom of the Clan Weapons and Equipment Table, Total Warfare p. 304 -- not the bit in the aerospace construction rules on TechManual p. 194. And there's nothing whatsoever about fighters vs. non-fighters there.

Stormfury

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #12 on: 04 June 2011, 17:26:06 »
It actually specifies non-bays. ASFs and Small Craft are the only kind of AeroSpace units (other than, I guess, ground-based units using the In Space rules from later books) that do not employ bays.

So the only exceptions are for Artemis-enhanced launchers and ATMs. The Special Munitions list is on p. 141-143 of Total Warfare; interestingly, the alternate ATM loads do not appear, though Artemis does.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

FedComGirl

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Re: Can ASFs use special ammo?
« Reply #13 on: 04 June 2011, 20:39:24 »
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Since Artemis IV equipped launchers do get increased aerospace attack values, I consider that pretty much a given. Otherwise you'd be saying that IN SPACE!!!, Artemis IV can suddenly give standard missiles the same boost it needs special ammo for on the ground...

Yep, there's a conflict there. Maybe you should let TPTB know, so they can make the exception official.

Quote
Bzzzt. I was referring to fine print at the bottom of the Clan Weapons and Equipment Table, Total Warfare p. 304 -- not the bit in the aerospace construction rules on TechManual p. 194. And there's nothing whatsoever about fighters vs. non-fighters there.

Like Stormfury said.