Author Topic: What are the major Great House Rivalries?  (Read 4560 times)

ussenterprise

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What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« on: 19 September 2017, 23:00:50 »
I know of the following:

Davion - Liao (4th Succession War, Marik-Liao Offensive under SunTzu)
Davion - Steiner (FedCom Civil War)
Davion - Kurita (Kentares IV and aftermath)
Davion - Marik (part of Marik-Liao Offensive)

Any others?

ajcbm

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #1 on: 20 September 2017, 08:23:56 »
Rivalries?

The Great Rivalries are Davion vs Kurita.

The rest are one way. Liao against Davion. Steiner against Kurita. Davion never took Liao seriously. Same thing with Kurita on Steiner.

Marik took a business approach to their wars so they never really had rivalries with Liao and Steiner.


GespenstM

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #2 on: 20 September 2017, 08:32:12 »
Free Worlds League: Free Worlds League is also a pretty great rivalry that we only recently mostly got over. Mostly.

Frabby

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #3 on: 20 September 2017, 09:02:20 »
Somewhat more seriously though, they all want to kill each other dead. There are not so much rivalries there as an universal struggle for dominance.

If any two factions share a border then they have a centuries-long history of violence, feud and bad blood between them. Otherwise, they're just tentatively hostile towards each other on general principle. Which is why the FedCom Alliance was such a shock and surprise.
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phoenixalpha

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #4 on: 20 September 2017, 09:39:52 »
Marik - Liao was pretty intense for most of the time they have been around for. Pre Star League all the way up until and including the 4th SW, then Marik and Liao became a big lovefest around the 3050s with Liao seeming to call all the shots and Marik (and all relevant FWL states) seeming to get the short straw up until and including the Dark Ages.

Out of all the "rivalries" I think the most benign one (ie least damaging) is the Marik : Steiner rivalry with both houses knowing that all out sustained long term warfare isn't good for business. I don't think those two houses have anything "personal" in the way that Davion - Kurita, Liao - Davion have going.

skiltao

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #5 on: 20 September 2017, 09:58:26 »
"The average Free Worlder's perception of the Concord of Kapteyn is that it is a temporary truce signed in order to obtain the alliance of the Draconis Combine. By comparison, the thought of peace (much less alliance) with the Lyrans is repugnant beyond description. As the old Oriente saying goes, 'Never turn your back on a Capellan, but shoot a Lyran on sight.' "

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Easy

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #6 on: 20 September 2017, 12:02:32 »
There are famous ones, well-known and established over the centuries that never really stop.

If you look at it from the 3025 start line, which is where FASA started the story, then the defining rivalries of the time were;

Kurita vs. Davion

The BTU narrative really sort of starts in the Draconis March with Hanse Davion and Takashi Kurita. ALOT of the novels, campaigns and scenarios, including the famous Mercenary units, are about the span of this conflict. From the Fourth Succession War, to Misery and the Ryuken, Morgan Kell and Yorinaga, his arch-rival.

Davion vs. Liao

Then, if you will, consequences and ramifications began to develop. The Davion border with House Liao had to be dealt with. Marik and Steiner needed to be accounted for. The first really consequential event I recall is the formation of FedCom. There was a countervailing treaty signed by Kurita, Marik and Liao called the Treaty of Kaptaen which sort of divided things between the two camps with Marik playing a kind of self-interested spoiler to Davion.

Steiner vs. Kurita, and also, about Rasalhague.

Marik vs. FedCom

The ''ages-old' rivalries between Liao and Davion, and to a lesser extent Marik and Steiner, developed from there, with sidelines involving Rasalhague and Steiner-Kurita. Parenthetically, I'm still discovering the actual number of forces and battles along the Steiner-Kurita border, but I didn't follow the Kell Hounds story.

The overall arching narrative is that all the Great Houses view every other House as a rival. The FedCom Civil War puts a sort of exclamation point on this. I don't really see the FedCom CW as a Steiner vs. Davion War, but perhaps in some ways it is. I guess it depends on how you read the Lyran Succession. Was it that much about, say, Skye and Lyran identity, or was it more about Katherine trying the hamstring Victor? Shrug, you could say both, right?

The Clans vs. Everybody

It's 3049 and all bets are off. Then the rivalries are back, but more muted in some regions and much more intense in others. Then the Jihad apocalypse and the Republic of the Sphere sort of, again, muted the old rivalries, deliberately, you could say. Then the Dark age in which the Great Houses begin to assert themselves, particularly Liao And Kurita, who squeeze Davion, and Steiner, who utterly collapse before the Clans after Archon Adam Steiner is gone.

There are more rivalries that develop, sometimes as sidelines, sometimes featured, of course. Word of Blake vs. ComStar. Jade Falcon and Wolf. Ghost Bear and Kurita,etc
« Last Edit: 20 September 2017, 21:34:26 by Easy »

Iron Mongoose

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #7 on: 20 September 2017, 12:14:32 »
Really, they're all rivals to some degree.  Each has had moments, however fleeting, of challenging for ascendancy, each wanted once upon the time to be Star Lord and rule over all the others.  And each has had centuries of war with those beside them. 

I think over time, no question Davion-Kurita is the one that has burned the hottest.  Over the last century, Davion-Liao has supplanted it, thanks to Hanse Davion's personal grudge against Max Liao, and the grudge of Victor's best friend Kai Allard-Liao against Sun-Tsu Liao, and of course on the other side due to Victor's romance with Omi Kurita and his friendship with Hohiro.  But, historically, it's been the other way.

As for the Steiners and Mariks, my sense is that while the hot wars were never quite as hot as Davion-Kurita, being both mercantile, they were able to carry on their wars even during peace, and that's why the fire there burns a little extra hot. So you might not see quite as many full scale invasions (though there are still a fair few) but there's always a chance to see a dropship with a purple eagle racing one with a blue fist, just with a cargo of goods to sell, rather than mechs to deploy.

The Liaos are another good example of the personal nature of these things.  Max was just power hungry, and happily involved himself in both Anton Marik's civil war and tried to replace Hanse Davion with a double; no clear favorite there, for me, though he was more Hanse focused by the time the books get to him.  But, Romano lost her lover to the FWL, and so hated them more, while her sister was shot up fighting the FS (specifically her future husband) and so initially hated the Suns more (until meeting said future husband, at which time she became extremely pro Suns). 

Since every successor state is pretty autocratic, nearly everything can turn on the whim of the leader on any given day.
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Kidd

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #8 on: 20 September 2017, 13:22:36 »
I know of the following:

Davion - Liao (4th Succession War, Marik-Liao Offensive under SunTzu)
Davion - Steiner (FedCom Civil War)
Davion - Kurita (Kentares IV and aftermath)
Davion - Marik (part of Marik-Liao Offensive)

Any others?
Your question might be better answered by summarising all the inter-relationships of the Great Houses. We can start with the Federated Suns since they were for quite some time the protagonists of Battletech.

(1) Federated Suns
In general the FS borders hate their neighbours, the DC and CC, save for a time when Victor And Friends was a thing, with the notable exception of the CC who has NEVER gotten along with anybody and in fact backstabbed Victor the 1 time they pretended to. So the Capellan Confederation might be argued to be the biggest Great House enemy of the FS. All bets with the DC are now off however in the most recent timeline.

FS don't have as much a problem with the FWL save for the Joshua Marik Incident, and that was personal, and long past. This relationship bears watching in the current era... if the FWL can ever pull itself together long enough to forge one that is.

FS and LC, despite the Civil War, have a special relationship that has carried on to the Dark Ages. An old married couple comes to mind; they've squabbled, but they will stick together unless something REALLY bad happens.

(2) Capellan Confederation
They hate the FS, period. Take a look at the map and you'll know why.

The FWL are frenemies at best, waiting for mutual backstabbery at worst. Think US-(a certain ex-union) in the 90s... now extend the analogy to today. Mm-hmm, yeah.

The CC probably bear a grudge against the LC for their part in the 4th Succession War. Then again, they bear grudges against everybody. Even in the face of nuclear annihilation (Jihad) the CC won't play with nobody. Period.

The CC-DC thing never really got anywhere. See again CC, grudges, teamwork.

(3) Free Worlds League
If only because of the nuclear-fuelled hate-on between the FS and neighbours, the FWL-LC thing is on a comparably low burn, but don't underestimate it: not only are they trade rivals worse than 2 ambitious VPs in an office with a dying CEO, a lot of territory on the border have changed hands and Hesperus is always there, always tempting the FWL.

FWL and DC probably do loads of trade. They probably talk a lot too. But a lack of mutual enemies and very different views on government, democracy, human rights, etc. precludes any real alliance.

(4) Lyran Commonwealth
Previous LC-DC fights have been interrupted by the presence of mutual Clan enemies. But they don't talk neither, and that silence speaks volumes. The LC's special relationship with the FS should preclude anything more concrete with the DC than silent, low-level trade.

(5) Draconis Combine
The DC's relationships with everybody have been covered, but a final postscript - where the CC is going into its own unique godlike-Great-Leader territory, and the FS considers themselves paragons of civilisation, and both the FWL and LC are in for the money, the DC traditionally considers itself the rightful heir to the Star League by dint of its leader being a sort of Vice-President after the Camerons at the time of the Star League's dissolution. Don't ask me how or why, it is what it is. So after the CC, it is the least likely to play nice with others.

Now throw in the Periphery States, minor Houses, special regions, those wacky Clans, etc...

jklantern

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #9 on: 20 September 2017, 13:55:30 »
Remember the FWL Motto:

Never trust a Capellan and shoot a Lyran on sight.

Apparently during the First Succession War, a LOT of nuking went on between the FWL and the LC, so there is a LOT of bad blood there.
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massey

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #10 on: 20 September 2017, 23:02:14 »
In general, they really hate their neighbors and have a hands-off policy with people they don't share borders with.  But that second part is subject to change if the opportunities are right.


The Federated Suns is traditionally the most powerful military state in the Inner Sphere.  For a long time they were the protagonists of the game, and they profess all the beliefs that a good representative of western civilization should espouse.  But they also like wars of conquest like any good 19th century European power.

--Their relationship with Kurita is (apart from the Clan Invasion period) a very intense rivalry, often open war.  The Draconis Combine nearly conquered the FedSuns during the 1st Succession War, and they wiped out about 50 million people on one planet.  These guys hate each other, and are always looking for an excuse to start fighting again.  Think Captain Kirk versus the Klingons.

--Their relationship with Liao is also really bad.  Generally the Suns have kicked the crap out of the Capellans whenever they've fought, and so the hatred on a national level is more one-sided.  But life in the Confederation sucks really bad, so Davion people on the border absolutely do not want to be conquered by Kim Jong Liao.  Generally they haven't had to worry about it, as the FedSuns have won far more than they've lost.

--Their relationship with Marik is pretty easy going, except for a few little spats over the years.  They both hate Liao, and other than that they aren't too worried about it.  Sure, each thinks "once I conquer my hated rivals, I'll have to deal with that guy next...", but that's a long way off.

--Their relationship with the Lyran Commonwealth is fairly friendly.  They haven't really fought any major wars against the other, except for that bad divorce that they went through in the 3060s.  But that doesn't mean they don't drunk dial each other at 2 in the morning.  They flirted for a while, and while marriage didn't work out, they're still on fairly good terms.



The Kuritans are the second biggest military power, but their ferocity and skill have kept Davion in check for a long, long time.  They were the primary antagonists for much of the early game.

--vs Davion.  As stated, except for a brief period during the Clan Invasion where everybody got together to team up, the Federated Suns are their mortal enemy.  The Davions are sneaky and tricky, and don't have the good grace to stand and fight (and die) against the Combine's bigger mechs and fiercer warriors.  Instead they use unorthodox tactics and brilliant strategies and leave the Combine frustrated and crying out for blood.

--vs Marik and Liao.  Who?  Bah, they'll get to those guys after they've crushed those accursed Davions.

--vs Steiner.  The Lyrans are rich, and they have powerful mechs.  But their leadership is more concerned about their stock prices and how their hedge funds are doing, rather than conquest.  Their generals would rather check their e-trade accounts than plan a war.  Steiner can be held in check.  They can't coordinate an invasion of Combine territory to save their lives.  Unfortunately, they're too heavily armed for the Dragon to invade them either, not as long as those blasted FedSuns people are fighting on the other border.


The Lyran Commonwealth has a bit too much Hans Gruber from Die Hard.  Greedy Euro businessmen.  They think their massive armies make up for their rather incompetent generals.  Their dreams of conquest don't go as far as the other nations.  Because why fight when you can get rich?

--vs Kurita.  The Dragon is scary.  Those guys don't know a good deal when they see one.  They've shared a border for centuries, and they've fought wars.  If it wasn't for those GI Joe wannabes over in the Fed Suns, the Combine might have really turned its attention to the Lyrans.  But for the most part, there's not a ton of real hatred between the LC and the DC.  Rivals?  Sure.  Want to destroy each other?  Sure.  But both sides have a more pressing interest.  The Lyrans want to make money, and the Combine wants Hanse Davion's head on a plate.

--vs Davion.  Generally friendly relations, except for that period where they thought they could make a marriage work, and then realized they can't.  But overall, they don't plan on invading one another.

--vs Liao.  Glad they aren't our neighbors.  They are someone else's problem.

--vs Marik.  Political, military, and business rivals.  They hate each other, like the CEOs of Coke and Pepsi hate each other.  But they still speak the same language.  Money talks, and these two Houses understand one another.  As far as rivalries go, it's relatively calm.  Neither side is a brutal dictatorship (though the LC does have an element of that in its really hardline groups).  This is the border where the only thing a conquered world is likely to notice is that the flags are different, and the bank charges you a fee to change your money over to a different currency.  And the tax forms have changed, again.


The Free Worlds League is pretty uninvolved.  For a lot of the game's history, it's like authors didn't know what to do with them, and so they didn't get talked about a lot. 

--vs Steiner.  As I said above, it's a rivalry, but one of the calmer ones that exist.  Definitely an economic rival as much as a military rival.

--vs Davion.  A pretty good relationship, all things considered.  It's fun to watch the Fed Suns kick the crap out of the Capellans day in and day out.

--vs Kurita.  Glad they aren't on our border.  The two nations entered into a political alliance there for a while, but there's never been much between these two states, good or bad.

--vs Liao.  These guys are crazy.  There was real bad blood between these two powers in the early days of the Succession Wars, but once the Capellans started getting blasted by the Fed Suns, they became a less imminent threat.  Still, you can't trust them AT ALL.  You don't actually want Davion to conquer all of their territory, because Davion is expansionist and you know they're not going to stop there.  But it sure is funny so far.


Capellen Confederation.  These guys are cut off, alone, in a fragmenting empire, and their leaders have questionable sanity.  And they hate everyone.

--vs everyone but Davion.  I'll show them.  I'll show them all.  Just you wait... you'll see...

--vs  Davion.  HATE!!!  HATE!!!  (apoplectic with rage)

glitterboy2098

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #11 on: 20 September 2017, 23:45:16 »
don't forget FWL vs Andurian, FWL vs Regulan, and FWL vs FWL..
« Last Edit: 20 September 2017, 23:47:57 by glitterboy2098 »

JadedFalcon

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Re: What are the major Great House Rivalries?
« Reply #12 on: 21 September 2017, 01:01:57 »
The Marik versus Liao rivalry gets credit for starting an era called The Age of War.

And how about some Clans?

Jade Falcon versus Wolf
Jade Falcon versus Steel Viper
Smoke Jaguar versus Wolf
Blood Spirit versus Burrock (and later Star Adder)