BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: Getz on 11 September 2013, 17:17:58
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So, I'm looking for a 3/5/3 assault mech to go with my two Marauder IIs and Highlander - but rather and do the obvious and grab a Pillager or Gunslinger, I thought a Sagittaire would be an interesting alternative. Thing is, I've never used one, or even anything much like one. The jump jets/pulse laser/tarcomp combo is dead nasty on mech like the Black Python but without the benefit of clan pulse laser tech or lots of speed I'd imagine it's a rather different kettle of fish.
Any thoughts on the Sagittaire? It certainly looks cool on the old cover art for TRO 3067...
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It's a beast! But it needs to be properly supported by faster Mechs. I ran it through MegaMek once with an Atlas AS8-D, Falconer 8R, and a fast mech that I no longer recall. It performed admirably well and became backstabber #2 when it finally got in range.
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Well, you got Options.
You could just take a 10X.
Though with the ER PPC, you got some accurate fire at good ranges.
Firing the PPC together with the dual LPLs will exceed your heat capacity by just one.
Then you can use the forward-mounted MPLs in close, leaving out the ERPPC.
Allows you cool off a bit, or jump.
The machine is packed to the brim, so you won't be able to do any fancy modifications;
Even if you had access to X-Pulse Lasers, you plain don't have the heat capacity for them.
Of course you could also use the 9D variant, but your other mech choices don't make the most of the options that'd open up.
It's probably best to use it in cities, like it's meant to be used.
It has an XL engine, but no explosive ammo, and plenty of crits; It barely has any place without them, and it can stand to lose a third of it's weapons without really dropping significantly in firepower.
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I have never used it, but the stats look solid and it is beautiful enough to be worth bringing to the table even if it is not the ideal unit for your strategy. Just bear in mind that it is a bit light on ranged firepower to it might be best either on a map with short lines of sight or as a bodyguard element for a primarily long range formation.
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It does suffer from range issues and can attract a lot of long range attention on it's way across, but it can be pretty deadly in close. Just have to watch out for being out maneuvered or loosing all of your armor on the way in.
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It's a great bodyguard for a Fire Lance. Of course, it better be a pretty powerful group to be worth the expense of a Sagittaire as opposed to a Victor or something.
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Rather like the SGR despite it's XL engine though I do imagine you could 'downgrade' to a light by dropping the rearfiring lasers. If you wanted, you use the freed up space to give it TSM, make it an even nastier urban brawler with one hell of a kick. Yes, the 10X does the engine swap, but loses most of its punch in the process, and relies on blakist salvage.
As for the canon variants, I hadn't seen them before. According to Sarna's posting of them, the 9D gives the risk of ammunition, but the C3 rig puts it in a decent position to stay at range now that it has more guns that can hit from longer than 10 hexes away, and I've always had a fondness for LB-X ACs. The 10X version, however... I don't want to like it because of it packing Blaketech, but the mobility and Light engine are keeping me from dismissing it out of hand. The Light PPCs are kinda dubious in comparison to the reach out and slap you of the ER PPC, but quad MVSPLs, despite giving me the crawls of FanaTech, are a case of some serious hurting up close, which the 5 IJJ could get you in short order.
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The moment I saw the Sagg on the cover of TRO:3067 and saw its stats, I wanted to use it.
However, I've found that it's a blunt instrument - get in close (5-6 hexes) and unleash. The Sagg lacks the flexibility of other Assaults (no critseeking, alternate munitions, etc.) like the Atlas and the consistent damage output of the Devastator or Nightstar. Beyond LPL range it barely throws more damage than some light Mechs, and one can't use aimed shots with the pulse lasers.
Once up close though, the jump jets allow the Sagg to push up the TNs which its tarcomp+pulse armament can well compensate for, and allows it to leap into an enemy's rear/weakened arcs.
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Totally agree with Kidd, its a blunt instrument and a close range knife fighter. I used one on a city map and it was glorious, I was especially cruel and teamed it up with a Berzerker (standard) against some Clan forces. Managed to scissor a Warhawk between them, had the Sag infront just blazing away whilst the 'zerker MASCed and ran up behind him. 20 point hatchet right into the spine...
But outside of a comfort zone with lots of cover the Sag's quite a juicy target, its not fast and its PPC is not enough to discourage people sniping at it at long range.
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The Sagittaire is a precision weapon. Use it in urban, mountainous or heavy forest terrain and it will cut a horrific swath through your opponent; use it in almost any other environment and it will get ganked by units half its size.
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Well, here's a bit of context. Overall I have plenty of medium and heavy cavalry forces to play at maneuver warfare with, so I thought I could do with a proper hammer and anvil force for set piece work. I already have the anvil (an Atlas, two Awesomes and a Stalker) - this lance is meant to be the hammer.
The rest of the lance are a MAD-4S, a MAD-5A and an HGN-732. This gives me plently of mid and long ranged firepower, but I felt I was lacking crunch up close. The purpose of the lance is to aggressively (if slowly) close on objectives the enemy feels compelled to defend. The MADs focus on fighting in the mid range bracket while the Sagittaire either closes for the kill or bodyguards it's friends if the enemy gets aggressive. Notionally the Highlander provides overwatch but it's flexible enough to do whatever job I need it to.
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Honestly, I'd recommend an Emperor. It can function just as well as a bodyguard without being neutered outside of six hexes. Plus the LBXs are great for tank/VTOL/ASF-swatting duty.
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Yeah, but the Emperor mini looks like puke.
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Well, here's a bit of context. Overall I have plenty of medium and heavy cavalry forces to play at maneuver warfare with, so I thought I could do with a proper hammer and anvil force for set piece work. I already have the anvil (an Atlas, two Awesomes and a Stalker) - this lance is meant to be the hammer.
The rest of the lance are a MAD-4S, a MAD-5A and an HGN-732. This gives me plently of mid and long ranged firepower, but I felt I was lacking crunch up close. The purpose of the lance is to aggressively (if slowly) close on objectives the enemy feels compelled to defend. The MADs focus on fighting in the mid range bracket while the Sagittaire either closes for the kill or bodyguards it's friends if the enemy gets aggressive. Notionally the Highlander provides overwatch but it's flexible enough to do whatever job I need it to.
The Sagg's XL engine also makes it a little fragile for hammer work. I suggest the AS8-D Atlas, which is a vicious hammer. If you don't want a second Atlas then replace the anvil Atlas with a Devastator or Nightstar.
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But none of those jump.
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The Sagg's XL engine also makes it a little fragile for hammer work. I suggest the AS8-D Atlas, which is a vicious hammer. If you don't want a second Atlas then replace the anvil Atlas with a Devastator or Nightstar.
Sadly, the Anvil isn't up for modification as I already own all those models - besides while the Devestator and Nightstar are great mechs, they're also kinda dull.
If I were to take anything instead of the Sagittaire, it would have to have jump capability.
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Gretz what Mech's in your avatar? I can't place it
Personally I love the Saggitaire in three places, cities, hills/places with plenty trees and rivers. Walking this thing down the river as you blast away with pulse laser blast makes its very nasty. The XL does discount slightly but it's got pretty much max armour and as previously noted no troublesome ammo
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Gretz what Mech's in your avatar? I can't place it
It's a Black Lanner, although it doesn't look much like the TRO art if you ask me. I chose it because it's in the same colours as my Mech collection and looks like one of my favourite custom designs.
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Sadly, the Anvil isn't up for modification as I already own all those models - besides while the Devestator and Nightstar are great mechs, they're also kinda dull.
If I were to take anything instead of the Sagittaire, it would have to have jump capability.
Then given your parameters you can't go far wrong with the Sag.
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I've only used the Sag a few times. When you have long sight lines, big maps, and room to maneuver it really suffers. As others have mentioned though, any area when sight lines are reduced or terrain is restrictive it is an absolute beast. IS LPLs and MPLs may not be scary in a vacuum, but used en mass at short range with the added accuracy of the TC they are nasty. The ER PPC tied to the TC is also great for making aimed shots at weak spots opened up by pulse laser spam, punching out enemies without having to wear them down.
Cheers,
LCC
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The Sag is nice machine, though the 'Mech is mighty slow though.
Its beast in combat, though from its weapons mix of the standard model its more for urban combat or close-in combat if anything can be applied to what role it plays.
My favor version of this thing, is a fluff variant mentioned in the MWDA novel, Wolf Hunters. The commander of the merc unit, Jamison's Juggernauts pilots a stripped version of the Sag which is described in enough detail to be replicated in a game design program like Heavy Metal Pro. All of the advanced weaponry and equipment is stripped out of this thing, its armed strictly with Succession Wars era technology. Back in the old Forums, i asked Kevin Kevinly, if what i had came up with was what he intended. He had said yes. XL Engine is swapped out for regular model of the same size, double heatsinks are 32 single heat sinks. Its armed with single PPC, single Large Laser and five medium lasers with the fifth mounted rear ward.
Its interesting beast, may not win awards but hey.
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I remember the stripped version I was always tempted to go the other way Variable Pulse Lasers never got around to it though - the 'IIC' version I tried was truly scary though exchanging everything with Clan tech created a true nightmare I had lots of fun with a gaming group with that Mech
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I always thought an intro tech Sag would look like this -> http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,9590.msg227409.html#msg227409 (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,9590.msg227409.html#msg227409)
I also wish there was a canon LFE or SFE variant that hewed a little closer to the original weapons load.
Cheers,
LCC
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Take the Sagittaire for the fluff. I paraphrase:"...the horror of seeing a 95 ton 'mech rise up on jump jets."
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Ouchy! LastChanceCav, that lvl 1 tech Sag design is brutal...
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I love the Sagittaire. It's base design is pretty good, but has clear deficiencies so I can forgive the cheesy combo of pulse lasers plus targeting computer. (They are also IS pulse lasers)
But it is such a great chassis with so much potential for toying around in, it's very easy and fun to come up with variants.
One variant I remember making but no longer having stats for swapped out the PPC and Large Pulse Lasers for ER Large Lasers, upped the heatsink count and swapped the engine for a standard model. The intent being to make a real middle range brawler.
And swapping pulse lasers for standard lasers frees up a lot of space in the design to start adding other fun equipment like ECM, C3, TAG so on and so forth. It's a really easy and fun design to toy around with and I hope that it will be in production for the Federated Suns post 3145 simply because of that. And even though it is an energy boat, it still has enough Davion flair by having jumpjets.
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Heave you seen the Davion variants in TRO 3039? Once upon a time, near-flashbulbs were very Davion.
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Have you seen the Davion variants in TRO 3039? Once upon a time, near-flashbulbs were very Davion.
And still are if the new Prey Seeker, Gunsmith and Black Knight have anything to say about it. 8)
Flashbulbs never go out of style.... >:D
Also, about the Sag, I love this mech like I love the Hunchback. Is it for sniping or other ranged combat? No, but what it does, it does very well imo. Using this thing well in a city or rough terrain can ruin any ones day.
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The Sag is probably the IS Mech that took the biggest hit with TW.
Pretty much the bigger and nastier brother of the Penetrator, it was custom tailored for pulse+TC, and could remove a Heavies torso with a single aimed salvo at close range, balanced by its "speed", as those Combine Mechwarriors foolish enough to duel them learned (fluff section).
Today its just another 95ton Assault with a range problem, scattering its average damage all over the target.
Jump capable, Davion flavored hammers are indeed a bit rare.
How about the Templar C, or the Emperor 6D?
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The Templar C would make a nice replacement as a jumping, short-ranged, Davion assault mech. It is one of my favorite canon configs, and like the Sag is a nightmare in built up terrain. Since its an omni you could outfit it for other roles depending on the mission, some of the new RS3067 variants are quite nice too.
Cheers,
LCC
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Is the original Templar out of production, though? Because if it is, then he can opt for the B variant of Templar III. It looks pretty nasty up close with the small x-pulses and two melee weapons.
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Is the original Templar out of production, though? Because if it is, then he can opt for the B variant of Templar III. It looks pretty nasty up close with the small x-pulses and two melee weapons.
Yep, the original Templar is dust in the radioactive winds of Talon.
Don't know if the Sag is still in production on Robinson, which would mean the Combine just got themselves this big honging lite brite to light up their former owners.
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The Sag is probably the IS Mech that took the biggest hit with TW.
Pretty much the bigger and nastier brother of the Penetrator, it was custom tailored for pulse+TC, and could remove a Heavies torso with a single aimed salvo at close range, balanced by its "speed", as those Combine Mechwarriors foolish enough to duel them learned (fluff section).
Today its just another 95ton Assault with a range problem, scattering its average damage all over the target.
You gotta admit, though, it was worth it to nerf the Warhawk C...
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And as much as I love autocannons. It made the RAC/5 and the UAC/20 just too darn nasty.
I have lamented that there isn't anything neat you could do with called shots with a RAC anymore. I have thought about the idea of making it act like streak missiles in that all hit, but random locations. But I do not know if the math on that makes it too powerful or not. Someone smarter than me would have to take a look.
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And as much as I love autocannons. It made the RAC/5 and the UAC/20 just too darn nasty.
I have lamented that there isn't anything neat you could do with called shots with a RAC anymore. I have thought about the idea of making it act like streak missiles in that all hit, but random locations. But I do not know if the math on that makes it too powerful or not. Someone smarter than me would have to take a look.
If you mean a TC-equipped R-A/C hitting all the time with all of its burst? Way too good.
If you mean taking the +3 to-hit modifier in exchange for hitting with everything in the burst? It would be OK with regular pilots and if C3 wasn't in use, but change that paradigm too much (eg: elite pilot in a RACturion with a friendly inside 5 hexes of the enemy) and it gets to be a bit much.
This is actually why TCs got nerfed; when combined with Inner Sphere technology they get to be a little too effective.
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Yeah it's mainly that additional C3 combo, didn't even occur to me at first. My Lord is it going to be bunchy in the future with mixed tech 'mechs sporting IS equipment and Clan weapons. Clan ER-PPC and C3? Oh God the pain! Or with the Clan ER-Large Laser.
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Yeah it's mainly that additional C3 combo, didn't even occur to me at first. My Lord is it going to be bunchy in the future with mixed tech 'mechs sporting IS equipment and Clan weapons. Clan ER-PPC and C3? Oh God the pain! Or with the Clan ER-Large Laser.
You can do that combo with IS OmniMechs and Clantech salvage in 3060.
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[rant]
You gotta admit, though, it was worth it to nerf the Warhawk C...
What nerf? Sure, losing the ability to target locations made it marginally less dangerous, but the cLPL is still the (generallY) most powerful weapon in the game.
And as much as I love autocannons. It made the RAC/5 and the UAC/20 just too darn nasty.
I have lamented that there isn't anything neat you could do with called shots with a RAC anymore. I have thought about the idea of making it act like streak missiles in that all hit, but random locations. But I do not know if the math on that makes it too powerful or not. Someone smarter than me would have to take a look.
I still make called shots with RACs. I just call them "quad IS ERMLs" nowdays... #P
[/rant]
Now back to the scheduled program!
Personally I like the idea behind the Sag, but I would have liked it a lot better with a SFE and 10 tons lighter. It's really expensive for what it brings.
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Everything is kinda expensive with an XL, and it's really about how many good pilots and how much dropship space you have.
But then, I agree with you.
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Considering the price of things has been there mainly for fluff reasons and is entirely arbitrary. Having no relation between how good something is or how rare or hard to produce (There are so many XL engines produced, yet cost remains the same for example). It is something I tend to ignore. The Powers That Be seem to do so as well.
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My first impression of the Sagittaire wasn't a great one. We were playing the first Isle of the Blessed of the Scenario, and some dumbass jumped his Sagittaire on top of a hill without any support and proceeded to get the class portrait from Team WoB. It was gone in a turn.
As an aside, I've always pondered the idea of a variant that swapped out the ER PPC and Large Pulse lasers on the R for a Trio of Standard PPCs, using the justification that the Chaos of the Jihad fubared logistics and the makers of the design had to make do with the stockpiled weapons on hand.
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Considering the price of things has been there mainly for fluff reasons and is entirely arbitrary. Having no relation between how good something is or how rare or hard to produce (There are so many XL engines produced, yet cost remains the same for example). It is something I tend to ignore. The Powers That Be seem to do so as well.
I mostly ignore the stated C-bill costs as well, but it is stated in so many places that XLFEs are more expensive that I regard it as simply "expensive", without trying to put a number to it. But that's just the first part - tonnage is a big factor in price too, and dropping the Sag to 85 tons wouldn't lose much capability.
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My first impression of the Sagittaire wasn't a great one. We were playing the first Isle of the Blessed of the Scenario, and some dumbass jumped his Sagittaire on top of a hill without any support and proceeded to get the class portrait from Team WoB. It was gone in a turn.
Was his name Leroy Jenkins? ;)
I mostly ignore the stated C-bill costs as well, but it is stated in so many places that XLFEs are more expensive that I regard it as simply "expensive", without trying to put a number to it. But that's just the first part - tonnage is a big factor in price too, and dropping the Sag to 85 tons wouldn't lose much capability.
At least in the IS. With the way the Clans tend to build things, I have to wonder if their XLE production is cheaper and more streamlined than their SFE production.
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They probably pay more for the materials, but yeh, the actual manufacturing won't be more expensive than an SFE.
With the way sidetorso-damage leaves the mech salvageable, it might even be favourable for logistics.
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Considering the fluff I'd say it's the other way around. XL engines doesn't use that much more expensive materials, they're much more expensive to produce. Which means the clans - who canonically has had problems with material resources - should go for the XLs as much as possible. SFEs still makes sense for "panic" units, being cheaper and thus probably quicker to produce.
But even with a much higher purchase cost XL engines can save you quite a bit in operating costs. Transport costs, obviously. Maintenance costs have (at times) been based on unit weight as well. And so on.
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I've found the Sagittaire is only as good as it's support. I've used to nasty effect with it when in the city/mountains/canyons/forest/jungle paired with other jumpers like a pair of Black hawk KU Primes or a Berserker, especially using the Sagittaire to "push" my opponent into the Berserker or visa versa.
In larger, more open warfare I've paired it with a Thunderhawk/Devastator/Nightstar/Alacorn/Dragon Fire or similar long range face smashers and had a lot of luck with it, but you have to be able to suppress fire to get it in close or use it to push the enemy out of cover into the afore mentioned fire support. Generally, you'd want to use it just like a Berserker, King Crab (ac20 version), or other close range facemelter. I've found even the nastiest close range killers such as the Berserker or Burrock(sp), there is nothing that can go toe to toe with it, win, and still be combat effective.
I have had some problems with it facing down C3 networks and clan groups for obvious reasons.
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Any thoughts on the Sagittaire?
As long as you treat it like an overgrown Hunchback then its a beast.
Just don't leave it alone on open plains w/o ranged support.
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As long as you treat it like an overgrown Hunchback then its a beast.
Just don't leave it alone on open plains w/o ranged support.
That or the old Atlas, although the TC'd ERPPC most definitely makes it less helpless at range than either of those designs.
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Well, the mini arrived in the post yesterday an looks super-sweet. Now to sort out a game and take the beast out for a trial run... >:D
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Well, let's necro this thing and give some thoughts. Because I'm like that. Nyah.
Here's the thing. You're 95 tons. You move 3/5- yes, you have jump jets, and that's a huge help in some situations, but still it's safe to say you're not going anywhere in a hurry. Hey, it's an assault Mech, that's not the idea to them, right?
Well, let's review the guns and- oh. In 3067, a brand new, extremely expensive, top-of-the-line assault Mech has one weapon reaching past nine hexes? At SEVEN hexes only three can engage? Granted, the TC means you're hitting more often with that PPC, and the closer you get those pulses get madder and madder, but... man, that's ugly times. In an era where heavies are regularly moving 5/8 and mediums are hitting 7/11, moving 3/5 is acceptable only if you can engage fast targets at range. Otherwise they'll never come near you- why would they? Think of a Falconer- it gives up twenty tons to this monster, but if it stays ten hexes away it can trade the PPC and Gauss for the Sagittaire's single PPC all day long (or until the ammo runs out on the Gauss anyway). And it's fast enough to almost always find a way to stay that needed distance- even if he loses initiative, he can simply back up as far as the Sag can run forward.
Does that make this a BAD Mech? No. No, that close range firepower is legendary for a reason. Not a fan of the rear lasers, particularly when the arms already can flip, but at close range if you catch something there... madness. Shut the PPC off, light up the laser batteries, and your target will melt into a little grey puddle. It's breathtaking- and if your opponent knows what he's doing, he'll do everything in his power to keep it from happening. In that way, using one is like using the old Hunchback- it can't really do much past nine hexes, but no one wants to risk stepping into the bubble- which makes it a great area-denial tool, if nothing else.
As an urban combatant this Mech shines. Jump over low buildings, let loose with your laser spam, if anyone sneaks up behind you can tell them where to stick it with the rear lasers, and if things get hairy you leap away again. Like an Urbanmech times three, if you will- which is fine, if that's what you wanted it to be, but using one in a typical assault role like you would with a Devastator or Atlas is going to result in a really crappy day.
Now, we know the Davvies are building Clan-tech lasers in the Dark Age, which brings up all kinds of fun options of course (Apollo's Law doesn't really apply here- this is WORTH upgrading to Clan pulses). Extending the range of the pulse lasers makes for a machine that is everything munchkin players have wanted for ages- you even lose a couple of tons of weight from the larges, in case you needed some weight back for something. But, being as that's tricked out and boring, I personally would rather not see it happen.
One of the DA novels featured a merc-owned Sagittaire (Wolf Hunters, I think) that had standard lasers in place of the pulses. Sounds like a downgrade, but... lower heat, better range, and the weight of those pulse lasers means there's a LOT of saved tonnage in there for other gear. We've never seen this statted out, but playing around in my head... by replacing the large and medium pulse lasers with standard models you save nine tons (plus I think the computer is removed in addition, if I recall), which means you can do a LOT of fun things here.
As an aside, I've always pondered the idea of a variant that swapped out the ER PPC and Large Pulse lasers on the R for a Trio of Standard PPCs, using the justification that the Chaos of the Jihad fubared logistics and the makers of the design had to make do with the stockpiled weapons on hand.
And then there's this, which I wholeheartedly approve of- like ramming a Black Hawk KU and an Awesome together, then turning it loose on victims. This is beautiful thinking and should immediately be a field refit to every Sag out there, regardless of the situation.
As stock, however, this is an urban warfare machine that has serious drawbacks, making the incredibly powerful and accurate weaponry just not worth the immense cost of owning one. Mod it, or sell it- if you're going to use it, be very careful in how you do so- or your opponent will likely get a chance to salvage it and show you how to use it from the other direction next game...
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As stock, however, this is an urban warfare machine that has serious drawbacks, making the incredibly powerful and accurate weaponry just not worth the immense cost of owning one. Mod it, or sell it- if you're going to use it, be very careful in how you do so- or your opponent will likely get a chance to salvage it and show you how to use it from the other direction next game...
I would have to disagree with you on this one. The stock configuration is a devastating specialist so concentrating them in specialized units while other designs do other jobs is the way to go. Can you imagine trying to fight in a city when the other guy has a company of these on hand? Brutal.
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I would have to disagree with you on this one. The stock configuration is a devastating specialist so concentrating them in specialized units while other designs do other jobs is the way to go. Can you imagine trying to fight in a city when the other guy has a company of these on hand? Brutal.
Yeah, I kind of mentioned how good this thing would be for urban combat... My issue is that once the fighting heads out of town, this thing becomes almost neutered- which is kind of a problem, for the kind of money you'd spend on ONE of these. A company? Ye gods, you've got a huge wallet and no sense in using it if you have a whole company of Sags.
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Yeah, I kind of mentioned how good this thing would be for urban combat... My issue is that once the fighting heads out of town, this thing becomes almost neutered- which is kind of a problem, for the kind of money you'd spend on ONE of these. A company? Ye gods, you've got a huge wallet and no sense in using it if you have a whole company of Sags.
That is sort of the point of a specialist formation. The do one thing really well and leave other work to more generalized units. You keep them in the back while your regular units advance to the edge of the city, then move them up to take point for the final push into the city center which is probably your objective. Going the other way, you let the specialists do the heavy lifting until you hit the edge of the city and then move up other units to progress out and keep the specialists back to either hold the city or bulk up the headquarters unit.
This would either be a small element in a much larger house formation which concentrates the specialists so they are not slowing other formations down in the open, or a dedicated mercenary unit which only contracts in their specialty and has a clause about refusing to work outside of it.
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So, has anyone taken a closer look at the new Sagittaire in 3145 NTNU?
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To each their own- to me, if I'm going to spend the kind of money a Sag costs, I feel like I should get my money's worth out of it- having it stay out of the fighting until I find a situation it won't get its ass kicked in seems like I'm getting ripped off. Redshirt's variant, I could see actually being useful in multiple situations. As stock, it's a niche unit in the same vein as the Urbanmech itself- fine in its role, near-helpless outside of it. But at least Urbies have the grace to be CHEAP and limited!
I'm not saying this thing sucks- far from it... it just needs a whole lot of things to go its way to keep from being left behind- or picked apart in most battles. And while that's nothing new- the same, in a different vein, could be said of many designs in the past like the Archer even- but here it's just SO pricey for what it does for you... I don't know, I just don't find it all that appealing. Your mileage may, and is welcome to, vary.
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So, has anyone taken a closer look at the new Sagittaire in 3145 NTNU?
As a platform for RE lasers and C3B, it looks good. Frankly, though, I still don't see the merit of either tech. Both are too heavy and bulky for what they do. C3B Slave is especially bad. For the same tonnage, you can fit in a C3 Slave and Angel ECM.
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I finally got to use the Sag alongside the rest of my 3/5/3 assault lance in 9000 bv game a few weeks ago. I was up against no less than seven IS mech of varying weights and while I can't claim it was the MVP (that particular honour has to go to the MAD-4S that managed to land every shot with it's HGR on target and head-chopped a BLR-4S in the process) it performed admirably as the bodyguard for the rest of the lance - ripping a Spider that was trying to back stab my Highlander to bits and wiping out a Hunchback in a single volley of fire - and the rest of the time the TC assisted ER PPC managed to hit most turns. It did die in the end - three mechs concentrating fire on it after it took point and managing to keep hitting the right torso will do that to any XL engined mech - and I can't honestly claim it made it's Bv back, but it was an important part of preventing my opponent closing successfully and allowed the rest of the lance to do their thing effectively at medium ranges.
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Take the Sagittaire for the fluff. I paraphrase:"...the horror of seeing a 95 ton 'mech rise up on jump jets."
I can actually imagine something worse. SuperHeavy VEHICLES are NOT EXCLUDED from mounting Jump Jets and if seeing a 95-ton 'Mech is bad, how bad is seeing a 200-ton tank do the same thing? And given the way things work if it was pulling a trailer at the time the trailer would come with it
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Does the trailer slow it down?
I want to see flying trains now. :P
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As a platform for RE lasers and C3B, it looks good. Frankly, though, I still don't see the merit of either tech. Both are too heavy and bulky for what they do.
Actually considering that the Sag is produced in the Draconis March and considering that the Draconis Combine has suddenly started producing a preponderance of 'Mechs equipped with Hardened Armor, I can see a very valid use for Re-engineered Lasers on this variant...
(HINT: If I recall the rules correctly, Re-Engineered Lasers do full damage against Hardened Armor...)
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Actually considering that the Sag is produced in the Draconis March and considering that the Draconis Combine has suddenly started producing a preponderance of 'Mechs equipped with Hardened Armor, I can see a very valid use for Re-engineered Lasers on this variant...
(HINT: If I recall the rules correctly, Re-Engineered Lasers do full damage against Hardened Armor...)
I'll go ahead and make you hate life here, but... I wonder if the Combine might have turned around and built a few off the assembly line? Or at least salvaged a few and refitted them the way they want? An HPPC refit might be interesting.
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Actually considering that the Sag is produced in the Draconis March and considering that the Draconis Combine has suddenly started producing a preponderance of 'Mechs equipped with Hardened Armor, I can see a very valid use for Re-engineered Lasers on this variant...
(HINT: If I recall the rules correctly, Re-Engineered Lasers do full damage against Hardened Armor...)
There was an analysis thread on the Re-Lasers a while back where someone ran the numbers and determined that they are too heavy to be practical against even the special armors they are intended to defeat. They get a moderate advantage against Reflective and either break even or fall behind against everything else.
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I'll go ahead and make you hate life here, but... I wonder if the Combine might have turned around and built a few off the assembly line? Or at least salvaged a few and refitted them the way they want? An HPPC refit might be interesting.
They're kinda jerks like that, aren't they? ;)
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There was an analysis thread on the Re-Lasers a while back where someone ran the numbers and determined that they are too heavy to be practical against even the special armors they are intended to defeat. They get a moderate advantage against Reflective and either break even or fall behind against everything else.
And I maintain my position that that analysis is inaccurate for actual gameplay considerations as it assumes infinite amounts of armor and only a single target location.
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They're kinda jerks like that, aren't they? ;)
Yeah, don't you hate when a nation hijacks someone elses assembly lines and builds their own variant of what was previously a proprietary unit?
Which reminds me, how did you guys end up liking those Cataphracts in 3050? ;D
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Yeah, don't you hate when a nation hijacks someone elses assembly lines and builds their own variant of what was previously a proprietary unit?
Which reminds me, how did you guys end up liking those Cataphracts in 3050? ;D
Trust Davion to screw up the upgrade by replacing the PPC with an Ultra-5. CTF-3L all the way. ;D
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Trust Davion to screw up the upgrade by replacing the PPC with an Ultra-5. CTF-3L all the way. ;D
Feddies and their autocannon-lovin'. You know the drill.
...Hell, it's a wonder they didn't mount a wad of ACs on the Sagittaire, now that I think of it. For shame, FedSuns! You could have built the Malice decades sooner than it actually debuted! ;D
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Well, there is the 9D...
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A bunch of LACs on a 95 ton jumper with Tarcomp?
I can actually see applications for that....
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Feddies and their autocannon-lovin'. You know the drill.
...Hell, it's a wonder they didn't mount a wad of ACs on the Sagittaire, now that I think of it. For shame, FedSuns! You could have built the Malice decades sooner than it actually debuted! ;D
Psssht! We did that during the Jihad with the Longbow... ;)
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For the same tonnage you could paste in triple RAC-5 and nine tons of ammo. Not quite as accurate against fast movers but that is a whole lot of lead flying around.
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Feddies and their autocannon-lovin'. You know the drill.
...Hell, it's a wonder they didn't mount a wad of ACs on the Sagittaire, now that I think of it. For shame, FedSuns! You could have built the Malice decades sooner than it actually debuted! ;D
If I remember correctly, the Robinson built 'Mechs tend to be based around energy weapons. Ostsol, Watchman, Sentry and the Black Knight. With the Argus coming alongside the Sagittaire, but it has autocannons. But one could argue that might have been due to those people at Achernar (Some of the variants have a far stronger energy weapon focus)
I always felt that this different in main weapon type focus was a neat little thing. I do not know if it is intentional or not, but I think they should stick with it in future products to promote the whole diversity thing.