Author Topic: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have  (Read 6299 times)

NeonKnight

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Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« on: 10 September 2016, 03:08:26 »
First off, let me say, I love the series, love the various planets, but there is one error (and it is a huge one) that is scientifically impossible that every product to date has had.

That error is the rivers. Every world published to date in the Touring the Stars has at least one river somewhere on it's surface that has split and flowed out to sea on two different tributaries, on some of these planets these splits end up emptying into the ocean thousands of kilometers apart from each other.

As someone who has done a lot of fantasy world mapping, and was a member of The Cartographer's Guild, this is an error we have seen time and again, and one that a lot of us have made (I have done it in the past myself).

This is not to say, a river cannot form a Delta like the Nile River, or even what I have in my Home City of Vancouver the Fraser River Delta. But one will never see a river split thousands of Miles upstream to then empty into the ocean as two separate rivers.

And on the same page as rivers don’t split off except in Deltas, lakes may have many rivers and creeks flowing into them, but ultimately, only one river will flow out.

So, please, think of a River as a Tree, the smaller branches (the Creeks and lesser rivers) eventually join into the larger branches and then to the trunk (the main river) that eventually ends at the ground (the Ocean).
« Last Edit: 10 September 2016, 03:19:42 by NeonKnight »
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The_Caveman

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #1 on: 10 September 2016, 03:56:41 »
River bifurcation is unusual, but it's far from "scientifically impossible".

Divide Creek in the Canadian Rockies splits and drains into both the Atlantic and the Pacific. I seem to recall those being a good ways apart.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #2 on: 10 September 2016, 05:54:19 »
Don't think this creek is flowing year round, and while no, river bifurcation is unusual, laws of nature are such that these instances are temporary at best and not permanent. I looked on google earth, and this is certainly not a major source of water.

Take lakes for instance, in flood season yes, there may be multiple outflows but as soon as enough of the water has exited from said lake, eventually, one river will take priority and become the only out flow.

So, I until one can point out a river the size and scale of one such as the Nile or Mississippi or Amazon that bifurcates and then flows out into the sea hundreds/thousands miles apart, I will stick to my guns on this one.
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Iracundus

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #3 on: 10 September 2016, 07:10:39 »
"The Casiquiare River with one of its branches empties into Orinoco and further into the Caribbean Sea. Its other branch flows to Rio Negro, left tributary of the Amazon, one of the two biggest rivers in the world, which empties into the Atlantic Ocean on the level of the Equator."  from http://gbtimes.com/travel/one-river-flowing-two-seas

Does that count?

ActionButler

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #4 on: 10 September 2016, 07:34:10 »
Divide Creek in the Canadian Rockies splits and drains into both the Atlantic and the Pacific. I seem to recall those being a good ways apart.

Lies.  Propagated by professional cartographers for centuries.
Source: I am a professional cartographer.

In the meantime, this is more of a sourcebook review thread, so I'm moving it to the appropriate section.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #5 on: 10 September 2016, 07:36:33 »
Based on the picture, it appears the river is little more than a creek.

If the world maps from the Touring the Stars series is representing major rivers, or the most major rivers, then please provide me with evidence of the Amazon spliting into two rivers and flowing into the sea at two different points.

So far, all examples provided are tiny creeks (and based on the photo if it is to be representative, human engineered to remain such).
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NeonKnight

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #6 on: 10 September 2016, 07:38:26 »
Lies.  Propagated by professional cartographers for centuries.
Source: I am a professional cartographer.

In the meantime, this is more of a sourcebook review thread, so I'm moving it to the appropriate section.

Ah, thanx..was totally not seeing this section.
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Iracundus

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #7 on: 10 September 2016, 08:07:39 »
Based on the picture, it appears the river is little more than a creek.

If the world maps from the Touring the Stars series is representing major rivers, or the most major rivers, then please provide me with evidence of the Amazon spliting into two rivers and flowing into the sea at two different points.

So far, all examples provided are tiny creeks (and based on the photo if it is to be representative, human engineered to remain such).

You misread the article.  That article was about the Nerodimka but mentions the Casiquiare River.  Map at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casiquiare_canal  (Natural canal btw). 

NeonKnight

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #8 on: 10 September 2016, 09:15:11 »
It also says it really only attains this at a times of flooding.

I'll say this again, rivers do not do this all the time. Yes there are situations where this happens, but in none of the examples people have provided are the rivers flowing this way with the same volumes year round. Every single one provided is either a flood season situation, or one where man has help the river maintain a temporary thing.

Left to mother nature, these rivers would quickly cut themselves or deposit sediment to a point of creating a single out flow.
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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #9 on: 10 September 2016, 11:56:10 »
Ah, thanx..was totally not seeing this section.

Or—apparently—others.
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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #10 on: 10 September 2016, 13:40:10 »
Don't think this creek is flowing year round, and while no, river bifurcation is unusual, laws of nature are such that these instances are temporary at best and not permanent. I looked on google earth, and this is certainly not a major source of water.

Take lakes for instance, in flood season yes, there may be multiple outflows but as soon as enough of the water has exited from said lake, eventually, one river will take priority and become the only out flow.

So, I until one can point out a river the size and scale of one such as the Nile or Mississippi or Amazon that bifurcates and then flows out into the sea hundreds/thousands miles apart, I will stick to my guns on this one.
You've been given two examples in this thread.  Saying that they aren't major rivers is moving the goalposts.  The fact that no continent-spanning river on earth bifurcated doesn't make it scientifically impossible any more than the fact that no mammal on earth has six legs makes it scientifically impossible.  We're working with a small sample size here.

Likewise the argument that dual outflow is temporary is little more than tautological.  All geographic features are temporary in the grand scheme of things.

I'll also note that only human intervention has prevented the Mississippi from bifurcating into the channel of the Atchafalaya River.  Maybe that isn't far enough up the channel for you, but it's an instance of a river trying to split, we just managed to stop it because TPTB don't want to lose New Orleans as a major port when the river follow drops.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #11 on: 10 September 2016, 13:47:27 »
actually there are several examples of river bifurcation IRL, including several constant ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_bifurcation

the Tärendö River in sweden and the Parting of the waters in Two ocean pass, Wyoming, for example. both naturally occuring, both constant over this geological epoch.

it is rare on earth but not impossible.

also consider that there are Bifurcation lakes, where the drainage paths bifurcate in the middle of a larger body of water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifurcation_lake
« Last Edit: 10 September 2016, 13:49:15 by glitterboy2098 »

Blackhorse 6

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #12 on: 10 September 2016, 15:44:58 »
On Tikonov rivers run you.   O0

Okay, just because it wouldn't be found on Earth would not mean that it wouldn' happen on other worlds throughout known space, right?

I'm not an expert on this topic but you might also look at it in reverse.  What if Earth is an exception in this area and not the norm?  :)

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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #13 on: 10 September 2016, 16:13:02 »
Don't forget, at the meta level, this is BattleTech. Where insufficient nits are produced by the developers, fans will summon them from the very fabric of space-time to ensure continued picking ;)
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Re: Touring the Stars and the One Scientific Error they all have
« Reply #14 on: 10 September 2016, 18:51:08 »
Topic Creator has requested that the thread be closed.
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