Author Topic: Primary/Secondary Languages  (Read 1931 times)

Restemayer

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Primary/Secondary Languages
« on: 23 September 2017, 08:07:39 »
How are those treated?  Ok, under the Terran Module, their Primary and Secondary Languages are both listed as "Any."  Fair enough, but later, two sub-affiliations tell you to apply a -10 XP penalty to "any one previously chosen Secondary Language skill."  In this context, what does that even mean?  In effect, is it read as applying the penalty to any one language skill (Language/Any -10)?  Or is it any language skill that we already have XP put into?  Or are we supposed to choose our primary and secondary languages ahead of time, and, if that's the case, how many?  5? 10? As many as we want?  If that's the case, I chose "All of them" as my secondary language, and we come full circle back to Language/Any.

I can see why people have had problems with this system.  I've played a few games, and I really enjoy how it plays, but now that I'm sifting through the rules with a fine tooth comb for things, confusing ambiguities are really starting to come out.

Decoy

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Re: Primary/Secondary Languages
« Reply #1 on: 23 September 2017, 11:08:58 »
ATOW character creation is a ....zero sum one. Any penalties you gain must be off set before the end of creation. So, I'd pick a secondary language like say....Language/ Esperanto and give it -10. When it comes to the cleanup phase at the end, you can buy the negative off....unless it's a language you want your character to speak.

Restemayer

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Re: Primary/Secondary Languages
« Reply #2 on: 23 September 2017, 12:59:59 »
Valid point, though it doesn't really address the question I asked.

I'm strictly asking as a matter of rule and textual interpretation; not character creation strategy.

When it tells you to apply points (positive or negative) to a "previously chosen secondary language" for an affiliation with a secondary language of "Any," what is the order of operations here?  Do I designate what the secondary languages are first, and then apply points?  "Previously chosen" in that context might mean "designated as a secondary language by the player (whether points have been put in or not)."  Or does it become an affiliated language by applying points to it?  "Chosen" meaning "points have been put into it."  Or does it just mean "All," and the "previously chosen" language is superfluous?

 I'm working on a personal side project... putting together a utility of sorts to assist with character creation... and the order things are done in can radically change what options are available.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2017, 13:02:52 by Restemayer »

monbvol

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Re: Primary/Secondary Languages
« Reply #3 on: 23 September 2017, 14:22:48 »
The main thing that determines how many languages your character speaks though is how much XP you put into various language skills, not where they are from.

Plus some of this is more a matter of deciding certain things about your character and the concept than game mechanics and what you and your GM decide is reasonable.

What you would do in this case is first decide where you want to put the universal language XP.  20 XP goes to a faction's primary or secondary language and 20 XP goes to English.  You could decide that the 20 XP that goes to English can count as the secondary language for your affiliation or you can decide the 20 XP, as a point of order this could also be more English in which case as a GM I would rule the -10 XP should be applied to Language/English, can go to some other language and that be your secondary language that gets the -10 XP.

Which brings me to my next point, a lot of the so called complexity of A Time of War does seem to come from people trying to make things more complicated than they need to be or failing to communicate with their group and GM in particular.  Especially when people are trying to make it a roll playing game instead of a role playing game.

Now I do grant there are a lot of things I think A Time of War could handle better, or frankly at all, but once you start getting used to it's approach to things it is actually pretty simple.

guardiandashi

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Re: Primary/Secondary Languages
« Reply #4 on: 23 September 2017, 16:35:51 »
all characters using Life Modules
must purchase the following (at a cost of 850 XPs): +100 XP to each
Attribute, Language/Affiliation Primary or Secondary Language
Skill (+20 XP), Language/English Skill (+20 XP) and Perception
Skill (+10 XP).

so if you look at house Davion
primary language is English
secondary languages are: French, German, Hindi, and Russian
IF you choose the Capellan March, as your sub affiliation, you also get 5xp into Cantonese, German, Mandarin, Spanish, or Russian
so ANY of those languages could get the 10 point reduction.

I look at something like that -10xp to language, as for a practical example, in High school I basically had to take 1 class of non English language, the only one offered at the time was Spanish, which I took, did not necessarily apply myself very hard and essentially never used it since, which means I lost 90%+ of it, so for all practical purposes, I may recognize Spanish, (and Spanish descended languages) but I won't understand what's actually being said, and most likely will not be able to make myself really understood.

Restemayer

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Re: Primary/Secondary Languages
« Reply #5 on: 23 September 2017, 16:52:45 »
all characters using Life Modules
must purchase the following (at a cost of 850 XPs): +100 XP to each
Attribute, Language/Affiliation Primary or Secondary Language
Skill (+20 XP), Language/English Skill (+20 XP) and Perception
Skill (+10 XP).

so if you look at house Davion
primary language is English
secondary languages are: French, German, Hindi, and Russian
IF you choose the Capellan March, as your sub affiliation, you also get 5xp into Cantonese, German, Mandarin, Spanish, or Russian
so ANY of those languages could get the 10 point reduction.

I look at something like that -10xp to language, as for a practical example, in High school I basically had to take 1 class of non English language, the only one offered at the time was Spanish, which I took, did not necessarily apply myself very hard and essentially never used it since, which means I lost 90%+ of it, so for all practical purposes, I may recognize Spanish, (and Spanish descended languages) but I won't understand what's actually being said, and most likely will not be able to make myself really understood.

Thanks, but that doesn't address my question.

Restemayer

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Re: Primary/Secondary Languages
« Reply #6 on: 23 September 2017, 17:03:42 »
The main thing that determines how many languages your character speaks though is how much XP you put into various language skills, not where they are from.

Plus some of this is more a matter of deciding certain things about your character and the concept than game mechanics and what you and your GM decide is reasonable.

What you would do in this case is first decide where you want to put the universal language XP.  20 XP goes to a faction's primary or secondary language and 20 XP goes to English.  You could decide that the 20 XP that goes to English can count as the secondary language for your affiliation or you can decide the 20 XP, as a point of order this could also be more English in which case as a GM I would rule the -10 XP should be applied to Language/English, can go to some other language and that be your secondary language that gets the -10 XP.

Which brings me to my next point, a lot of the so called complexity of A Time of War does seem to come from people trying to make things more complicated than they need to be or failing to communicate with their group and GM in particular.  Especially when people are trying to make it a roll playing game instead of a role playing game.

Now I do grant there are a lot of things I think A Time of War could handle better, or frankly at all, but once you start getting used to it's approach to things it is actually pretty simple.

I've decided to interpret the "previously chosen" phrasing as superfluous, and I'm going to treat it as Language/Any.

Daryk

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Re: Primary/Secondary Languages
« Reply #7 on: 23 September 2017, 18:14:01 »
I read it as a language you've previously put points into, but if you want an official ruling, you need to ask in the rules forum.