First mech with AC/20 is the Victor?

[worktroll]

For the record, I choose not to go there.

As the bishop said to the actress ...

[SCC]

In all fairness, the engineering vehicle introduced "back in the day" may well have been packing something else, like a heavy rifle (cannon).

No, the Mul gives it BattleForce ability AC 2/2/0 which is either an AC/20 or 2 AC/10's
Further more, Rifles (Cannons) do not seem to convert to BattleForce autocannons

[Fireangel]

No, the Mul gives it BattleForce ability AC 2/2/0 which is either an AC/20 or 2 AC/10's
Further more, Rifles (Cannons) do not seem to convert to BattleForce autocannons

Is that rating for the version rolling off the factory floor in 2500 or the one you can buy with a low down payment and easy APR financing from a 3025 factory showroom floor?

[SCC]

Line from the MUL:
Engineering Vehicle (AC)    40    423    TR3039 (RS3039u)    Introductory    AoW    2500
It comes out in 2500
Downloaded latest SSW Master (don't have TRO:3039) lists intro date as 2500 also and it has one AC/20 with one ton ammo

[ANS Kamas P81]

It's also specified as the AC variant so I rather imagine the Engineering Vehicle (AC) would have an autocannon, not a Heavy Rifle.  When we see an Engineering Vehicle (Rifle) we'll have that.

[SteelRaven]

Another thing to consider is that the AC/20 is a Lyran invention, the Victor is not.
I am starting to suspect that a non-published Lyran Mackie version might have been the first to mount the gun after all.

Canon law: If it's not published, then it doesn't exist until a newly publish work says otherwise.
The Engineering Vehicle (AC) may have been the first combat vehicle to mount a AC/20 but the question is regarding the first battlemech to mount the AC/20 and the Victor's production date seems to beat that of the Atlas and the AC/20 variant of the Mackie, custom units not withstanding. 

Maybe we will see this title change hands in XTRO: Primitives or SW. 

[ColBosch]

Line from the MUL:
Engineering Vehicle (AC)    40    423    TR3039 (RS3039u)    Introductory    AoW    2500
It comes out in 2500
Downloaded latest SSW Master (don't have TRO:3039) lists intro date as 2500 also and it has one AC/20 with one ton ammo

SSW is a non-canon source. However, it's nice that it agrees with the MUL here. I suspect that I came up with the 2500 date; most of the invented dates in the MUL prior to my separation from CGL were my work. For the generic vehicles, I usually just looked when up the last bit of equipment on them was introduced and used that as the variant's own intro date. Sometimes I was way off, as with the APCs (sure, machine guns are ancient tech, but not 'Mech-grade armor...).

I had looked at the issue as "well, this is the earliest it could exist, and we'll shake it out in review." Of course, with umpteen thousand entries - almost all far more interesting than the Engineering Vehicle (AC) - not everything got perfectly vetted. That said, I find it perfectly reasonable that "earliest possible date" shows the model that the particular bit of kit was first fielded on. It's hard to say that something was "introduced" on a certain date unless it's actually bolted to something, right?

[SCC]

I'd als

Canon law: If it's not published, then it doesn't exist until a newly publish work says otherwise.

Yes, but it also leads to the problem of, excepting the Engineering Vehicle, it took a while for ANYTHING to mount the AC/20, there should have been something mounting worth using not soon after it being invented (I'm using BT timeframes here), it is for this reason personally I imagine the the Hetzer or something like it was around not long after the AC/20 was invented

SSW is a non-canon source. However, it's nice that it agrees with the MUL here. I suspect that I came up with the 2500 date; most of the invented dates in the MUL prior to my separation from CGL were my work. For the generic vehicles, I usually just looked when up the last bit of equipment on them was introduced and used that as the variant's own intro date. Sometimes I was way off, as with the APCs (sure, machine guns are ancient tech, but not 'Mech-grade armor...).

I had looked at the issue as "well, this is the earliest it could exist, and we'll shake it out in review." Of course, with umpteen thousand entries - almost all far more interesting than the Engineering Vehicle (AC) - not everything got perfectly vetted. That said, I find it perfectly reasonable that "earliest possible date" shows the model that the particular bit of kit was first fielded on. It's hard to say that something was "introduced" on a certain date unless it's actually bolted to something, right?

How new is the information on when 'Mech grade armor became available?
Engineers should have easy access to Engineering Vehicles and given how quickly new war gear ends up on new 'Mechs or whatever

[LastChanceCav]

I just like that the engineering vehicle's fluff states that it originally incorporated the AC20 for rapid demolition. I like the irony that the ultimate mech-killer of its era was put to other uses before it got put on something whose main goal is kill mechs, not fortifications.

Cheers,
LCC

[Fireangel]

Line from the MUL:
Engineering Vehicle (AC)    40    423    TR3039 (RS3039u)    Introductory    AoW    2500
It comes out in 2500
Downloaded latest SSW Master (don't have TRO:3039) lists intro date as 2500 also and it has one AC/20 with one ton ammo

And what are the introductory dates of all the other models?

[SCC]

ES for the standard and 2025 for the flamer variant (that doesn't sound right)

[Neufeld]

ES for the standard and 2025 for the flamer variant (that doesn't sound right)

Especially since Combat Vehicles only becomes available in 2470, every vehicle before that are support vehicles.

[Moonsword]

Especially since Combat Vehicles only becomes available in 2470, every vehicle before that are support vehicles.

We're aware of the issue.

[SCC]

I was thinking that 2025 counts as ES

[Nebfer]

This.

Since AC damage is divorced from actual caliber, it is possible that the Atlas's AC/20 simply had the largest, most powerful single-round performance of any AC/20 ever built, but fires at a lower cyclic rate.

If I had to guess, I'd say 203mm. The clans have an AC/20 in that caliber and off-hand I can't think of a larger caliber in BT.

Possible though in Heir to the Dragon it mentions the atlas has a 100mm, though to be fair it mentions it's a "100mm High velocity 1000 Autocannon" as well (TRO says it has a Deathgiver Autocannon), and mentions Martel lasers instead of Hellion-V.
Which is interesting as the book correctly mentions the Zeus having a Defiance Autocannon (being referenced as a 75mm) and the Pontiac 100 on the Victor (mentioned as a 100mm).

Though the Clans do have at lest one if not two, the Cauldron born mentions a 203mm on the B config, and The Fire scorpion 3s fluff (from BC) mentions it's type 20 UAC is a 200mm, in fact it implys that other configs have a 200mm gun (as it says this "variant also has a 200mm" gun).

Though their is a reference to a 200mm AC in Wolf Pack but makes no mention as to what it's mounted on (the quote basically says XYZs mech gets hit by a 200mm autocannon shell...).

[Fireangel]

Possible though in Heir to the Dragon it mentions the atlas has a 100mm, though to be fair it mentions it's a "100mm High velocity 1000 Autocannon" as well (TRO says it has a Deathgiver Autocannon), and mentions Martel lasers instead of Hellion-V.
Which is interesting as the book correctly mentions the Zeus having a Defiance Autocannon (being referenced as a 75mm) and the Pontiac 100 on the Victor (mentioned as a 100mm).

Yeah; the TRO's fluff goes together with its fluff stats; the one mentioned in HttD may be a locally built version made with local components that just have the same game stats as the plain vanilla version.

Though the Clans do have at lest one if not two, the Cauldron born mentions a 203mm on the B config, and The Fire scorpion 3s fluff (from BC) mentions it's type 20 UAC is a 200mm, in fact it implys that other configs have a 200mm gun (as it says this "variant also has a 200mm" gun).

Though their is a reference to a 200mm AC in Wolf Pack but makes no mention as to what it's mounted on (the quote basically says XYZs mech gets hit by a 200mm autocannon shell...).

In all fairness, authors seem to default to 200mm for AC/20 shells.

[Nebfer]

Yeah; the TRO's fluff goes together with its fluff stats; the one mentioned in HttD may be a locally built version made with local components that just have the same game stats as the plain vanilla version.

true though it just could be that he messed up on the brand... (which would be odd as he got the others right, but it seems to happen from time to time).

In all fairness, authors seem to default to 200mm for AC/20 shells.

Nope the novels seem to default to 100 or 120mm for class 20s, TROs and source books seem to use 200mm or other calibers however.

Heir to the Dragon both AC-20s with diameters listed are 100mm
TRO 3026 mention 185 for the Demolishers Chemjet and 150mm for the Hetzers Crusher SH
Patriots and Tyrants lists 120mm for the Blitzkrigs Defiance Thunder Ultra, the same book mentions the Defiance Disintegrator LBX 20 is also a 120mm (Barghest)
Threads of Ambition mentions the Thunders Kali Yama Big Bore AC-20 is 120mm
Era report 3052 mentions the Hunchbacks Tomodzuru is 180mm (I believe Threads of Ambition mentions it's 120mm, it dose the same with the Hetzers gun...)
Binding Force lists the Von Luckner with a 120mm AC-20

A Call to Arms the UAC-20 on the Jagatai is listed as 120mm
Blood of the Isle and Fortress Republic both mention the SM1 Tank Destroyer has a 120mm class 20 (don't real precise type off the top of my head)


Though one thing is true, the novels do not seem to have a lot of consistency, theirs a number of novels where they mention AC-X on mech X is caliber Y but a different novel lists they same weapon as a different caliber... Though the Novels are not the only one who did that, the Same gun is listed on the Ku tank and Mars, but the Ku's entry says it's a 75mm and the Mars says it's a 150mm...

[Fireangel]

Though one thing is true, the novels do not seem to have a lot of consistency,

You think?  ::)

theirs a number of novels where they mention AC-X on mech X is caliber Y but a different novel lists they same weapon as a different caliber... Though the Novels are not the only one who did that, the Same gun is listed on the Ku tank and Mars, but the Ku's entry says it's a 75mm and the Mars says it's a 150mm...

One's in imperial mm, the other in Clan mm's? :D

[Marwynn]

Autocannon classes cover a wide variety of calibers. But that fall apart when it's the exact same gun they're talking about... Oh well.

[Wrangler]

The Victor could been armed with AC/10s instead of a AC/20 when it first came out just keep canon appears in line.  Twin AC/10s on Victor would be handy in many ways.

[Sartris]

I still prefer thinking of an AC20 shot as one massive 450 pound shell.  Not because it makes sense or gets more than the thinnest mention in canon, but because the visual of a supersonic gorilla-sized bomb smashing into something is awesome.

[Youngblood]

I'm considering quoting the above post now.  Because that's almost as good as Gauss slugs filled with bees.

[Alexander Knight]

What?  That the Autocannon works by firing a shell at you that releases a really angry gorilla?

[Sartris]

What?  That the Autocannon works by firing a shell at you that releases a really angry gorilla?

Autocannons shooting gorillas.  You can't explain that.

[Nebfer]

What?  That the Autocannon works by firing a shell at you that releases a really angry gorilla?

I don't know about that but the joke over at space battles is that Autocannons use Holy Water and the armor is made from Vampires... or something to that effect.

You think?  ::)

What? we mustn't spoil our record.   :D

[Alexander Knight]

Autocannons shooting gorillas.  You can't explain that.

That's because while you're trying to explain, the gorilla is punching your face in.

[Wrangler]

That's because while you're trying to explain, the gorilla is punching your face in.

Well, you could shoot Baboons (Mechs) and Mandrills from Light Naval Autocannons.....does that count punching as in someone in the face with?

[Alexander Knight]

Well, you could shoot Baboons (Mechs) and Mandrills from Light Naval Autocannons.....does that count punching as in someone in the face with?

Hold still and we'll find out.   ;)

[Fireangel]

What?  That the Autocannon works by firing a shell at you that releases a really angry gorilla?

This mental image is made of Win^TM O0

[Beazle]

This mental image is made of Win^TM O0

As interesting as the image of an angry gorilla being fired out of a cannon is, I'm having more fun trying to picture the factory workers who put the gorilla into the shell in the first place (I'm assuming he becomes angry somewhere along in the process through natural means).  Then I'm having loads of fun picturing them explaining to their wives why they're not going back to work for their second day on the job.