Author Topic: Elementals question...  (Read 8685 times)

adamhowe

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Elementals question...
« on: 11 May 2012, 16:57:07 »
...what are the opponents of Elementals during their trial to become a warrior?

Fear Factory

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #1 on: 11 May 2012, 17:42:00 »
Other Elementals?
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sillybrit

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #2 on: 11 May 2012, 20:38:26 »
The old Mechwarrior Companion p68-69 had brief rules for the Trials of Position for the three main phenotypes available at the time.

The Trial process sounds more like the one Aiden Pryde goes through than the one undertaken by Phelan. The cadets first have to pass a test of survival unaugmented as they travel from the start point to where their Battle Armor (or 'Mech or fighter) is waiting, then they have the usual augmented battle against three progressively stronger foes.

The Companion rules did recommend using the RPG or Clantroops rules rather than the BattleTech tactical game rules to allow more freedom of action. After all, it wouldn't be unreasonable for an Elemental to quickly pop their suit, then quickly set up a trap using a convenient rope they found in a building in the testing ground, then get back in their suit to lure an opponent to the trap. In comparison, that wouldn't really be viable for a Mechwarrior and definitely not for a Pilot.

These rules don't take into account any Clan specific exceptions, such as the Steel Vipers who pit their cadets against each other instead of having them fight a trio of veterans.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #3 on: 11 May 2012, 22:27:24 »
The Vipers and Falcons have their cadets fight each other before they get to their equipment and begin the Trial proper, not in place of fighting active-duty opponents.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #4 on: 12 May 2012, 05:26:59 »
more like they start em fighting among their own sibkos,,,,then the "weedin-out" process.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #5 on: 12 May 2012, 06:02:02 »
Every Clan does that.

Throughout their time in the creches and sibkos, warrior cadets/candidates are monitored and tested; part of that includes pitting them against each other and removing anyone below the level deemed acceptable.

Some Clans- like the Wolves- have good enough genetic legacies and training that the Trial of Position is almost an afterthought; by the time a cadet gets there all they need is a rubber stamp and a front-line posting, so they are given a Dire Wolf to test out in. The Wolves even deliberately mix Elementals, MechWarriors, and Pilots in their sibkos to ensure that their potential warriors have to be extraordinary to make it through training.

Others, like the Spirits or Vipers, just have ridiculously difficult training. Death and maiming are commonplace, as are entire sibkos being wiped as failures before they even begin preperations to hold a Trial of Position.

Everyone else falls between those extremes.
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St.George

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #6 on: 12 May 2012, 06:17:51 »
though that info is well known,I belive the Horses have the most demanding Elly training.IMHO
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #7 on: 12 May 2012, 06:23:29 »
That honour actually goes to the Ghost Bears; they have the same Improved Elemental Phenotype/Creche pathway as the Horses, but the Bears breed their Elementals even bigger and stronger while demanding (slightly?) more of them.
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adamhowe

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #8 on: 12 May 2012, 11:53:34 »
The old Mechwarrior Companion p68-69 had brief rules for the Trials of Position for the three main phenotypes available at the time.

The Trial process sounds more like the one Aiden Pryde goes through than the one undertaken by Phelan. The cadets first have to pass a test of survival unaugmented as they travel from the start point to where their Battle Armor (or 'Mech or fighter) is waiting, then they have the usual augmented battle against three progressively stronger foes.

The Companion rules did recommend using the RPG or Clantroops rules rather than the BattleTech tactical game rules to allow more freedom of action. After all, it wouldn't be unreasonable for an Elemental to quickly pop their suit, then quickly set up a trap using a convenient rope they found in a building in the testing ground, then get back in their suit to lure an opponent to the trap. In comparison, that wouldn't really be viable for a Mechwarrior and definitely not for a Pilot.

These rules don't take into account any Clan specific exceptions, such as the Steel Vipers who pit their cadets against each other instead of having them fight a trio of veterans.

I've read the entry you mention and it doesn't really clarify what sort of opponents an Elemental faces.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #9 on: 12 May 2012, 12:14:13 »
...what are the opponents of Elementals during their trial to become a warrior?

In generic terms, 3 Other Elementals, each one more skilled than the next, Regular, Veteran, Elite.
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adamhowe

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #10 on: 12 May 2012, 12:16:16 »
In generic terms, 3 Other Elementals, each one more skilled than the next, Regular, Veteran, Elite.

Okay, thanks.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #11 on: 13 May 2012, 23:04:06 »
in one of the novels it talks about how Jake Kabrinski started out as a Point commander for getting 2 kills in his initial Trial of position. so for elementals its, 1 kill gets you to be elemental, 2 gets point commander, im assuming 3 gets you a star.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #12 on: 14 May 2012, 00:27:58 »
So an exceptionally proficient gunner and pilot could gain control of an entire star, even though he might have zero real tactical and leadership qualities?! Is there a check and balance built in for this? After all, if some one challenges him for being incapable of those two traits, he simply kicks their tails in BA and carries on.

In, fact it would seem the entire process could be applied to any other test type too, leading to extremely proficient dead eye pilots with insufficient tactical acumen and truly inappropriate ideas of leadership.

Are the Clans actually prone to this sort of behavior?

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #13 on: 14 May 2012, 00:48:15 »
Ayup =) in the novel one of his mechwarriors actually constantly was calling him out for not having mixed forces experiences due to him coming in from one of the claws from Zeta.

 
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #14 on: 14 May 2012, 07:24:26 »
So an exceptionally proficient gunner and pilot could gain control of an entire star, even though he might have zero real tactical and leadership qualities?! Is there a check and balance built in for this? After all, if some one challenges him for being incapable of those two traits, he simply kicks their tails in BA and carries on.

In, fact it would seem the entire process could be applied to any other test type too, leading to extremely proficient dead eye pilots with insufficient tactical acumen and truly inappropriate ideas of leadership.

Are the Clans actually prone to this sort of behavior?
Yep, it happens all the time, just look at the Ice Hellions, Asa Taney ruled for a long time only b/c he was such a good individual warrior that he was able to take out all his challengers until Raina Montose finally beat him. Not all situations are that big/bad, but it does happen. All the Clan can hope for is that the warrior in question learns to lead better or that they will face enough challenges that someone can beat them.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #15 on: 14 May 2012, 11:27:52 »
So an exceptionally proficient gunner and pilot could gain control of an entire star, even though he might have zero real tactical and leadership qualities?! Is there a check and balance built in for this? After all, if some one challenges him for being incapable of those two traits, he simply kicks their tails in BA and carries on.
Yup. The Clans prize combat skill to a ridiculous degree compared to the IS. The Check and Balance of this is the short life cycle of a Clan Warrior. There is always someone gunning for your position. If you fail as a commander, you'll have even more people gunning for your position and will eventually get kicked out. Even if you manage to successfully keep your rank after all this, they can still assign you to a position that's technically of the same rank (Or even a promotion), but in reality is a dead end. If you're a Star Captain, and you get 'promoted' to be the Star Colonel of a garrison cluster, you've pissed off someone.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #16 on: 14 May 2012, 11:39:29 »
I think the way the Clans check such excellent pilots vs poor commanders is that such pilots tend to lead from the front, and thus get their units into situations where they get killed against odds that even their skills can't beat. Either that, or their superior make sure to place good commanders as their XOs to balance things out, and hopefully the great pilot learns commanding skills.

Not the best of methods, but you'll never see me accuse the Clans of great intelligence.
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Gryphon

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #17 on: 14 May 2012, 12:47:08 »
Can you challenge for the XO's position, or coach a challenge such that it doesn't automatically cater to a given individuals strengths? For instance if he is a really, really good BA pilot, but you know he relies heavily on ranged attacks, and you arrange a challenge to take place out of armor to take advantage of his "blind spot" for close range melee combat? Can you provoke a challenge immediately, such that it must be dealt with by hand to hand.

Flip side of this is are there ways to keep really, really good martial artist from challenging their way up the ranks without regard to their actual in mech combat skills?

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #18 on: 14 May 2012, 14:39:00 »
A Warrior can't just be challenged every five minutes. As the position involved gets higher there is a lot of political positioning involved. The Challenged can just laugh in the Challenger's face of course. The Challenger needs to get their peers onside to support the claim and pressure the Challenged into accepting.
Which is not to say the peers can't be naieve and not recognise that there is more to a position than bossing people around.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #19 on: 14 May 2012, 15:24:01 »
Can you challenge for the XO's position, or coach a challenge such that it doesn't automatically cater to a given individuals strengths? For instance if he is a really, really good BA pilot, but you know he relies heavily on ranged attacks, and you arrange a challenge to take place out of armor to take advantage of his "blind spot" for close range melee combat? Can you provoke a challenge immediately, such that it must be dealt with by hand to hand.


Trial of Possession by Kevin Killiany in Total Warfare describes a situation like this. The main character is piloting a Bashkir having previously piloted an Issus. He had challenged for a new variant & after losing while still smarting from the defeat was challenged for his fighter by another pilot. "The pilot who had challenged Ilya for his own Stooping Raven within hours of his defeat ... had been a giant among the aerospace subcaste—a freakish one point seven meters tall and heavily muscled. She had not challenged him to a simulator duel, which would have measured their piloting skills, but to unaugmented combat. Ilya had been foolish to accept so quickly, but the sting of his earlier defeat prodded him to rashness. And more defeat." The Wolves especially are described as seeing the bidding as part of the battle but this is true of all clans to some degree. The Smoke Jaguar commander on Wolcott refers to the fact that he was defeated before he ever set foot on the planet through the Kuritan bidding tactics. However it is also clear from Trial of Posession that the character could have refused the un-augmented trial & insisted on a simulator (or possibly live fire?) duel as more suitable.

Some trials will also have a set format that must be followed like the trial of bloodright or IIRC a challenge for the khanship of the Hells Horses which  must be fought with sabres.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #20 on: 02 September 2017, 17:17:17 »
though that info is well known,I belive the Horses have the most demanding Elly training.IMHO

I always wonder what the super harsh training actually meant? Did the trainers just kick you an extra time when you were down?

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #21 on: 02 September 2017, 20:43:18 »
I always wonder what the super harsh training actually meant? Did the trainers just kick you an extra time when you were down?
Probably more demanding with higher floors on standards and wash much more out.  If some of the other stuff is accurate they also are less interested in safety during training than is normal even for the Clans so you get more intense training that results in more casualties even before the higher standards come into play.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #22 on: 02 September 2017, 21:12:27 »
Do their blood name contests then ease off on the harshness? SEems like making those deadly as a matter of course would waste many very very skilled warriors

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #23 on: 03 September 2017, 14:46:38 »
Hence why some of those Clans had a hard time maintaining their numbers.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #24 on: 03 September 2017, 17:21:58 »
Zing

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #25 on: 03 September 2017, 23:14:03 »
Do their blood name contests then ease off on the harshness? SEems like making those deadly as a matter of course would waste many very very skilled warriors

Remember, when trying to roleplay/discuss/understand the Clans, you have to embrace the hypocrisy. They talk a big talk about avoiding wasteful practices, but they never pass up a chance to waste a resource, especially a human resource.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #26 on: 04 September 2017, 00:40:27 »
Remember, when trying to roleplay/discuss/understand the Clans, you have to embrace the hypocrisy. They talk a big talk about avoiding wasteful practices, but they never pass up a chance to waste a resource, especially a human resource.

The Clans are weirdly wasteful of people.  They don't want to give people artificial limbs organs or too advanced medical care because it's
"too expensive", ignoring the immense amount of resources sunk into every adult (and probably most children).  Even the lowliest laborer represents untold sunken costs in food, clothing, training, etc.  Even if you assume a fairly young retirement age (which is probably true for some laborers, less so for other castes), I've got to wonder how expensive an arm is that they'd consider it more useful than several years of labor.

It almost makes sense for training warriors - they want only the best of the best (it doesn't actually make sense, but it's almost justifiable).  But for anyone else?  Or, hell, adult warriors who are already trained and tested?

But it wouldn't be the Clans without weird hypocrisy.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #27 on: 06 September 2017, 22:15:43 »
Artificial limbs and advanced medical care are the ultimate hypocrisy to Clan Warrior, because needing them is irrefutable proof that you were so close to dying gloriously in service to your Clan, but you had the gall/audacity/bad judgment to end up surviving.  How dare you.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #28 on: 06 September 2017, 23:00:41 »
You'd think plastic surgery would actually be popular among Warriors, since it would eliminate all the evidence of the many times they failed to Die For The Clan.
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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #29 on: 07 September 2017, 00:48:32 »
Remember that the Clans are aren't a death cult, but a glory cult. Walkin around with a cybernetic arm just means you ain't finished kickin the Unity outta the enemies of the Clan yet. Show me a Clan warrior who has a metal skullcap from surviving a failed trial, and I'll show you a Clan warrior who needs an opportunity to solo a star of Dire Wolves with a Hunchback IIC.

Wouldn't be surprised if some warriors see scars as collections of tokens from past battles.

Do their blood name contests then ease off on the harshness? SEems like making those deadly as a matter of course would waste many very very skilled warriors

A proper Clan response would be "Why tolerate mediocrity?" The Blood Spirits are an example of producing better than average Clan warriors, and not having enough mechs to go around if they lessened their brutal methods. And the small-scale conflicts of the Kerensky cluster don't really call for massed armies the way that the attrition warfare of the Inner Sphere did.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #30 on: 07 September 2017, 08:21:54 »
You'd think plastic surgery would actually be popular among Warriors, since it would eliminate all the evidence of the many times they failed to Die For The Clan.

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Re: Elementals question...
« Reply #31 on: 07 September 2017, 09:11:45 »
"Star Captain, did... did you get a nose job?"

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