Author Topic: Protomech of the Month: The Roc  (Read 7929 times)

oldfart3025

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Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« on: 09 July 2012, 19:16:14 »
Welcome to the first in a series of new articles dealing with those half-pint pests we call Protomechs.


The first installment deals with the model that is pretty much the yardstick by which all other "trooper" Protos are measured by: The Roc.


The Roc is one of the so-called "first generation" Protomechs, which is the end result of research going back to the 30th Century. Or,when the Jaguar scientists figured out that their Clan's "All About Warriors, All Of The Time" policy was screwing the pooch. Trade, colonization, resource exploration, etc,etc. had been neglected to the point where the worlds they did have were running low on resources. So, the scientists began research into mechanized units that used minimum resources to build and maintain, but retained a high level of combat effectiveness. These new units would combine the best attributes of Battlemechs and powered battlearmor. Working in secret for decades, the project ran into roadblocks, both technical and genetic. However, the breakthrough they had been waiting for came about during Operation:Revival. Using a modified form of the new Enhanced Imaging technology, they solved the problem of scaling down a cockpit, and was able to eliminate the need for a gyroscope. They were also able to use pilots of the aerospace phenotype to get around the inability to create a new breed of pilot for their new toy.

These breakthroughs came about at the right time. The problems that the Smoke Jaguars were having on their OZ, were putting a great strain on their already dwindling resources. Resistance was hot and heavy during the years of Jaguar occupation of worlds belonging to the Dragon, thanks to citizens and displaced soldiers following the Dictum Honorium. Unfortunately, by the time the first Protomechs were ready for production and deployment, they were being used to defend Huntress from an Inner Sphere task force, rather than securing the OZ.

This stunning debut caught the attention of the other Clans, especially resource starved Clans like the Blood Spirits (who would become prolific Protomech users in the Homeworlds). The technology quickly spread after the fall of Clan Smoke Jaguar.

Enough with background history. On to the Roc itself......


The Roc was the end result of lessons learned from work on models conceived before it. Thus, it has an excellent balance of firepower, armor, speed, and mobility. Weighing in at seven tons, it proved to be the most successful design at that time, and was very popular with it's operators.

The base model is powered by a sixty ton rated powerplant, allowing to cruise along at fifty-four klicks per hour. Or move at 86 kilometers per hour balls to the wall. This 5/8 movement rating gave the Roc the ability to pace the faster heavies among Clan 'Mech forces. Throw in the 150 meter jump capability, and you can see why some consider the base Roc to be a sort of "Super Elemental". It's highly flexible, like the classic Clan battlearmor, able to operate in most terrain types and areas of operation with little loss in combat performance.

The Roc's firepower is nothing to sneeze at. Sporting a extended range medium laser in a main gun mount, it can be a threat to lighter 'Mechs individually. In a full Point, it can serious hurt heavier units.

The base model is protected by 1,550 kilos of integral advanced alloy armor, giving it an armor factor of thirty-one. The torso and legs are the most heavily armored, at ten and seven points respectively. The Main Gun has three points of protection, the arms four each, and the head unit has an armor rating of three points. One could argue that the armor isn't too bad for a Protomech of the Roc's tonnage.

All of these combined make the original Roc the quintessential multi-purpose "trooper" Protomech, sharing traits and similar mission profiles with it's "trooper" 'Mech cousins. Not to mention, the Roc's smaller kin, the generalist BA suit. The standard model Roc is pretty much the ultimate expression of what the development team set out to do: create a unit with the better attributes of 'Mechs and battle armor.

The Roc soon spread to other Clans' Toumans after the fall of the Smoke Jaguars. You would think that the phrase "Don't Mess With Success" would apply here. But other folks among the Clans had other ideas. Thus, we get to the variants.

The Roc 2 attempts to give the Proto more punch by replacing the solid ERML with a heavy medium laser. However, the Roc 2 sacrifices some range, and (more critically) armor protection, in order to mount this potent close quarters weapon. This variant came about in the 3060's, when the heavy laser craze was heating up among the Clans (especially among the Crusader faction). Whether or not the trade offs are worth it is up to the individual player. As for me, I don't much care for it. In the AO's where HMLs will be most used, the ERML is good enough in my opinion. But it's still a workable variant if played in the right environs.

The Roc 3 came along around the same time as the second type. Instead of a heavy laser, this variant mounts a medium pulse laser. In exchange, it loses less armor than the Roc 2. But it also loses the all-important jump jets in the process, as well. The jump capability  is one of the things that gives the Roc it's excellent flexibility on the tabletop. So, losing that doesn't sit too well with me. Fortunately, running it in areas where there is plenty of cover (like cities) compensates to a large degree.

The Jihad-era Roc 4, on the other hand, is a specialized variant that I can get behind. Optimized for electronic warfare, this variant sports heavier armor than the base Roc and retains it's jump capability. This mobility and armor is necessary in keeping the valuable Clantech ECM suite intact and in operation. As far as weaponry, the Roc 4 carries a single anti-personnel gauss rifle, fed by a two ton magazine, for defense. I say "defense" because this isn't a variant to take on the Bad Guys in the shooting gallery. It's a pure support variant to muck up the other side's electronic toys for the benefit of the actual shooters on your side. "Use it smart, or lose it quick", as we say in my playgroup. With that in mind, this is a popular support variant amongst my group's players.

The "latest and greatest" Roc variant comes to us compliments of those sinister, mustache twirling villains of The Society. As folks familiar with the genocidal conflict known as the "War of Reaving" know, The Society made heavy use of high-tech Protomech variations, even to the point of coming up with new classes (superheavy and quad). Even though they came up with new models, the scientist-led cabal didn't discard the older tried and true machines. They simply added to the list of variants to expand their shadow army.

The Society variant, known as the Roc Z (Heh. Reminds me of IROC-Z. Wonder if mullets were popular among it's pilots.  :D), offers some interesting features. One of note is the use of the Hell's Horses designed Medium Chemical Laser, supplied with a ton's worth of chemical "charges" (enough for thirty shots). What's cool about this choice is that with Protos dealing with heat, and mounting heat sinks, in the same manner as AFVs, chemical lasers don't require power amps (AFVs) or additional heat sinks (AFVs and Protomechs). It makes sense that someone would eventually mount this new weapon on a Protomech (though LCLs are too bulky for Protomech use). The only downside is the need for "ammunition".   

The other cool feature is the addition of Protomech-scale magnetic clamps, a technology developed from Capellan battlearmor mag clamps. As with the battlearmor system, it allows Protos to hitch a ride on a 'Mech (conventional or Omnimech). While there are limitations, the system has it's benefits. One is the quick deployment and evacuation of slower Protomechs by faster Battlemech models. Though, in the case of Ultraheavy Protomechs, it might not be worth the weight dedicated to the MCS in the eyes of some, since a 'Mech can only carry one Ultraheavy (as opposed to two standard Protomechs). And the standard external cargo rules apply, since Protos are larger and heavier than battlearmor. So the faster the ferrying 'Mech, the better. However, the Roc Z maintains the same ground speed as the Clan military Rocs, so hitching a ride might not be necessary except in an emergency.


Well, that's the meat and potatoes of the existing variants of the Roc Protomech. As usual, one must remember that the Roc, like any other Proto, is a team player and well-tailored to combined arms operations. Each variant of the original has it's good and bad points, and areas of operation that each does the best in. Work as a team within the Point, coordinate with other units, use your mobility to the hilt, and use cover whenever it's available. All of these make for a successful recipe for effective Protomech usage in your game.

Hope you guys find this enjoyable and informative.

And as always, my two cents worth in the mix.



« Last Edit: 09 July 2012, 19:25:22 by oldfart3025 »

SCC

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #1 on: 09 July 2012, 20:24:54 »
The base model was designed for operating in the OZ right? Was basically COIN? If so a Micro pluse laser would be nice, for killing infantry

Southern Coyote

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #2 on: 09 July 2012, 22:21:46 »
Yeah, but ERML gives a much bigger bite and it wasn't designed solely for hunting infantry. 

The Roc is one of those machines that should be included in every force possible, especially Protomech forces.  A point of them is vicious and a star of them is a nightmare.  In any fight I put them in, they almost always walk away from it with atleast 2 kills.  I love Protos and the Roc is the crown jewel. 

Great article.  Looking forward to more!
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #3 on: 09 July 2012, 22:45:37 »
You know...I have not done much with Protomech Mag Clamps..
I know there is a discount on the Protomech tonnage for OmniMechs...does one then
allow the 'mechs standard carrying capacity before dropping the speed?
Or does one drop the speed after the tonnage "discount" for omnimechs?

Because, if you allow the standard carrying capacity before slowing the mech down,
then a star of 40 ton Omnis could carry a point of Rocs at 1/Omni without slowing down,
thus allowing some rapid deployment of the already fairly fast Roc...
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Southern Coyote

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #4 on: 09 July 2012, 23:08:37 »
I honestly wouldn't see the point.  The Roc is already a relatively fast unit. 

I used the Minotaur variant with clamps once and found it...interesting.  I'm not sure how I feel about clamps just yet.  I'm surprised a Proto abuser like you hasn't already tried them...
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #5 on: 09 July 2012, 23:40:10 »
I've had a little experience with Protomechs, mostly on the receiving end, and I've definetly learned to respect the Roc. While some of the variants have some potential, I'd generally rather have the armor and range of the standard.

The Jihad-era Roc 4, on the other hand, is a specialized variant that I can get behind. Optimized for electronic warfare, this variant sports heavier armor than the base Roc and retains it's jump capability. This mobility and armor is necessary in keeping the valuable Clantech ECM suite intact and in operation. As far as weaponry, the Roc 4 carries a single anti-personnel gauss rifle, fed by a two ton magazine, for defense. I say "defense" because this isn't a variant to take on the Bad Guys in the shooting gallery. It's a pure support variant to muck up the other side's electronic toys for the benefit of the actual shooters on your side. "Use it smart, or lose it quick", as we say in my playgroup. With that in mind, this is a popular support variant amongst my group's players.

That single AP Gauss is worthwhile for dealing with infantry (Protecterate Militia more than MD) while you jam enemy electronics. And if you concentrate your full point, you can deal with Light BA squads fairly easily as well. But your main mission with a Roc 4, as well as your highest priority, is still making good use of that ECM.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #6 on: 10 July 2012, 00:06:22 »
Yeah, but ERML gives a much bigger bite and it wasn't designed solely for hunting infantry. 

The Roc is one of those machines that should be included in every force possible, especially Protomech forces.  A point of them is vicious and a star of them is a nightmare.  In any fight I put them in, they almost always walk away from it with atleast 2 kills.  I love Protos and the Roc is the crown jewel. 

Great article.  Looking forward to more!
I was talking about in addition to the CERML, which would be pretty good for killing the sort of armor COIN would be up against but you need something to kill the infantry

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #7 on: 10 July 2012, 00:39:01 »
I honestly wouldn't see the point.  The Roc is already a relatively fast unit. 

I used the Minotaur variant with clamps once and found it...interesting.  I'm not sure how I feel about clamps just yet.  I'm surprised a Proto abuser like you hasn't already tried them...

Well, considering the speeds of some of the Clan 40 donners(IIRC, isn't there an 8/12 40 ton Clan Omni?), while the Roc
is a pretty speedy unit, being able to drop off a poiunt of them as part of a rapid envelopment attack can
definately be useful tactically.

As for why I have not tried the PMC yet? Until the Roc Z and the Minotaur from TRO:P, there have not been any
canon variants with it that I consider viable. And we do not have canon record sheets for the TRO:P units(or
any protomechs beyond those put in RS3060u and WoRS or XTRO:Clan).
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #8 on: 10 July 2012, 00:44:00 »
Well, considering the speeds of some of the Clan 40 donners(IIRC, isn't there an 8/12 40 ton Clan Omni?), while the Roc
is a pretty speedy unit, being able to drop off a poiunt of them as part of a rapid envelopment attack can
definately be useful tactically.

The Dragonfly/Viper fits the bill.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #9 on: 10 July 2012, 01:57:31 »
Well, considering the speeds of some of the Clan 40 donners(IIRC, isn't there an 8/12 40 ton Clan Omni?), while the Roc
is a pretty speedy unit, being able to drop off a poiunt of them as part of a rapid envelopment attack can
definately be useful tactically.

As for why I have not tried the PMC yet? Until the Roc Z and the Minotaur from TRO:P, there have not been any
canon variants with it that I consider viable. And we do not have canon record sheets for the TRO:P units(or
any protomechs beyond those put in RS3060u and WoRS or XTRO:Clan).

Pretty sure protomech hitching a ride decreases move speeds

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #10 on: 10 July 2012, 02:17:36 »
Give me the Roc with the heavy medium laser any day of the week.  I love that darn proto.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #11 on: 10 July 2012, 09:38:28 »
Well, considering the speeds of some of the Clan 40 donners(IIRC, isn't there an 8/12 40 ton Clan Omni?), while the Roc
is a pretty speedy unit, being able to drop off a poiunt of them as part of a rapid envelopment attack can
definately be useful tactically.

As for why I have not tried the PMC yet? Until the Roc Z and the Minotaur from TRO:P, there have not been any
canon variants with it that I consider viable. And we do not have canon record sheets for the TRO:P units(or
any protomechs beyond those put in RS3060u and WoRS or XTRO:Clan).
There's also the Phantom of 9/14. The thing is that Proto clamps aren't really designed for faster protos (unless you're air-dropping the mech, running a long distance, or using the Proto as armor).

EDIT:
Pretty sure protomech hitching a ride decreases move speeds
Nope. Check the TW-errata it says that a Mech can carry up to 10% of it's tonnage before it takes a tonnage penalty.  Here's a little more info on it:
The magnetic Proto-clamps work like the BA-clamps, which in turn act like BA riding an omni, with a few rules changes/mods.

* Quad and Glider Protos can't use the Magnetic Clamps
* A 'Mech can carry up to 2 Protos if each are 9 tons or less
* A 'Mech can only carry 1 Proto if it is 10 tons or more
* Protos are carried on the front and rear CT (front CT only if the proto is 10 tons or more)

If the 'Mech is a non-Omni:
* It can carry up to 10% of it's tonnage in Proto tonnage with no movement penalties
* If it carries more than 10% of it's tonnage in Proto tonnage, cut it's walking speed in half

If the 'Mech is an Omni:
* Subtract up to 3 tons per Proto to determine the total Proto tonnage carried for movement penalties (see the rules for non-Omnis above).

Example: a Mad Dog can carry a single Minotaur P2 with no movement penalty
60 tons x 10% = 6 tons total Proto tonnage
9 tons of Proto - 3 tons b/c Mad Dog is an Omni = 6 tons total Proto tonnage

However a Stormcrow (55 ton Omni) or a Galahad (60 ton non-Omni) carrying the same Minotaur P2 would each suffer a movement penalty.

So a Gargoyle can carry a single 11 ton Ultra Proto, or a pair of 7 ton Protos (say a Roc if it had Clamps).
I won't claim to have any insider info or psychic powers on the Roc with clamps, I was just pulling out an example that fit.
« Last Edit: 10 July 2012, 10:09:31 by wantec »
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #12 on: 10 July 2012, 12:06:46 »
The Roc is really one of the best protos, and I think that the basic, TRO3060 Roc with out any new specal post TW stuff can still be very competitive in the modern era speaks to that.  Its quick enough that you can't just come in and swat it like the 7 ton pest it is, though enough that you have to try anyway, and with five MLs across a point it can really make you feel the pain.

And the Heavy and Pulse veriants are fun takes on an established theme, and also very good.  Though I still tend to gravitate to the ER in this context.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #13 on: 10 July 2012, 13:04:22 »
The Roc is really one of the best protos, and I think that the basic, TRO3060 Roc with out any new specal post TW stuff can still be very competitive in the modern era speaks to that.  Its quick enough that you can't just come in and swat it like the 7 ton pest it is, though enough that you have to try anyway, and with five MLs across a point it can really make you feel the pain.

And the Heavy and Pulse veriants are fun takes on an established theme, and also very good.  Though I still tend to gravitate to the ER in this context.
The standard Roc, in my mind, seems to be a great balance of speed, weapons, size, and armor. Moving 5/8/5 it can get most anywhere and generate a +3 movement modifier to help keep it alive. The ERML has great reach and damage. Being only 7 tons, with the one weapon, it's generally a small enough target to be ignore since most will see it and think they can take it out in one turn when they need to.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #14 on: 10 July 2012, 13:56:57 »
Speaking as one who does not use protos, but has faced them many times, to me the Roc is a deci-Thor. Like the Thor, it has good speed, enough armor that you have to work to kill it, and while the throw-weight doesn't mean you have to kill it right now, it has enough that you can never ignore the things, and the sooneer you drop them, the better off you'll be. And just like the Thor, the maneuverability means that cornering one for a quick kill is like nailing jello to a water buffalo: the best case scenario ends with you stomped flat into the mud with multiple extraneous orifices to worry about.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #15 on: 10 July 2012, 21:03:53 »
Still my fave Proto.  All three of the original variants have given me excellent service when I've used them.  The ECM one sounds interesting, will have to give it a try. 

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #16 on: 10 July 2012, 22:52:37 »
There's also the Phantom of 9/14. The thing is that Proto clamps aren't really designed for faster protos (unless you're air-dropping the mech, running a long distance, or using the Proto as armor).

So ONE Omni can carry a single Proto at these high speeds with slowing down, you'd need a whole star to move a point, not really worth it

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #17 on: 10 July 2012, 23:55:32 »
So ONE Omni can carry a single Proto at these high speeds with slowing down, you'd need a whole star to move a point, not really worth it

What else are you going to do with those Phantoms?  They are not exactly high performance machines so strapping on a Proto for some extra kick is not a bad idea.

Also, the Viper can also do the job at 8/12/8, but unlike the Phantom it can actually fight so I would be less inclined to saddle it with Proto taxi duty.


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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #18 on: 11 July 2012, 01:41:03 »
Lets see, to make it actually worth using the Omni must travel an equal or greater distance in 2 turns less then the Roc's themselves would
so
14(x-2)>=8x
solve for x is 4 and 2/3 so five turns, which comes out to 40 + hexes you want to move the proto's

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #19 on: 11 July 2012, 02:50:54 »
Lets see, to make it actually worth using the Omni must travel an equal or greater distance in 2 turns less then the Roc's themselves would
so
14(x-2)>=8x
solve for x is 4 and 2/3 so five turns, which comes out to 40 + hexes you want to move the proto's

Now, do the calculations in Battleforce, or on the Strategic level, which is where I see the Magnetic Clamp and Chem laser
variant coming into its own...greater strategic level flexibility
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #20 on: 11 July 2012, 03:03:30 »
Now, do the calculations in Battleforce, or on the Strategic level, which is where I see the Magnetic Clamp and Chem laser
variant coming into its own...greater strategic level flexibility

That was what I was thinking as well.  Load up your Striker Star with a point of Protos for extra firepower on a raid.  You have the greater speed of the fast mediums to get you in and out, and the extra firepower and armor of the Protos to add some extra muscle to your raid.  You could also do the same thing to quickly reinforce a position that is being overrun with more force than would normally be possible with such a fast formation, but either way the Protos are not going to be getting back on until the fighting is over or it is time to retreat.  Of course, you can run into problems if you loose more 'Mechs than Protos, but there are some risks you have to accept in war.


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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #21 on: 11 July 2012, 04:37:43 »
That was what I was thinking as well.  Load up your Striker Star with a point of Protos for extra firepower on a raid.  You have the greater speed of the fast mediums to get you in and out, and the extra firepower and armor of the Protos to add some extra muscle to your raid.  You could also do the same thing to quickly reinforce a position that is being overrun with more force than would normally be possible with such a fast formation, but either way the Protos are not going to be getting back on until the fighting is over or it is time to retreat.  Of course, you can run into problems if you loose more 'Mechs than Protos, but there are some risks you have to accept in war.

Even if you have to double up on Phantoms and dragonflies and ice Ferrets, they are still faster on the strategic level then
5/8
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #22 on: 11 July 2012, 04:59:31 »
Even if you have to double up on Phantoms and dragonflies and ice Ferrets, they are still faster on the strategic level then
5/8

I thought it said it cut the 'Mechs movement in half to carry two.  That would bring the 8/12/8 Viper down to 4/6 which results in a net loss in speed.  Of course, 5/8/5 is really not that slow so if things get ugly the stranded Proto may be able to get out on its own, but that is not likely to be too big a concern.

I am assuming you are not talking about doubling up on 'Mechs here because it is generally hard to get more 'Mechs, and at least with the Viper I will be using as many of them as I can get a hold of weather or not I need them for transport.


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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #23 on: 11 July 2012, 06:39:33 »
I thought it said it cut the 'Mechs movement in half to carry two.  That would bring the 8/12/8 Viper down to 4/6 which results in a net loss in speed.  Of course, 5/8/5 is really not that slow so if things get ugly the stranded Proto may be able to get out on its own, but that is not likely to be too big a concern.

I am assuming you are not talking about doubling up on 'Mechs here because it is generally hard to get more 'Mechs, and at least with the Viper I will be using as many of them as I can get a hold of weather or not I need them for transport.

No it cuts movement in half when you carry more then 10% of the 'Mechs weight, just remember on Omni subtract 3 tons from the PROTO's weight when calculating this

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #24 on: 11 July 2012, 08:43:58 »
I thought it said it cut the 'Mechs movement in half to carry two.  That would bring the 8/12/8 Viper down to 4/6 which results in a net loss in speed.  Of course, 5/8/5 is really not that slow so if things get ugly the stranded Proto may be able to get out on its own, but that is not likely to be too big a concern.

I am assuming you are not talking about doubling up on 'Mechs here because it is generally hard to get more 'Mechs, and at least with the Viper I will be using as many of them as I can get a hold of weather or not I need them for transport.
Like SCC said and like I said above, the movement penalties only kick in when a Mech carries more than 10% of it's tonnage. Omnis get a bonus. Any Mech can carry 2 protos if each weighs 9 tons or less or 1 proto that weighs 10 tons or more The formula is a little hard to explain so I'll try to write it out in a way that makes sense.

Omnis no movement penalty:
(Proto #1 tonnage) - (3 tons to a minimum of 0) + (Proto #2 tonnage) - (3 tons to a minimum of 0) < (10%)*(Mech tonnage)

So a 40 ton Phantom, assuming all protos have clamps, can carry without a movement penalty:
2x 5 ton (or less) Protos
1x 4 ton (or less) Proto & 1x 6 ton (or less) Proto
1x 3 ton (or less) Proto & 1x 7 ton (or less) Proto
1x 7 ton (or less) Proto

That same Phantom, assuming all protos have clamps, can carry with a movement penalty dropping it's speed to 6/9:
2x 9 ton (or less) Protos
1x 10-15 ton Proto
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #25 on: 11 July 2012, 16:51:45 »
Like SCC said and like I said above, the movement penalties only kick in when a Mech carries more than 10% of it's tonnage. Omnis get a bonus. Any Mech can carry 2 protos if each weighs 9 tons or less or 1 proto that weighs 10 tons or more The formula is a little hard to explain so I'll try to write it out in a way that makes sense.

Omnis no movement penalty:
(Proto #1 tonnage) - (3 tons to a minimum of 0) + (Proto #2 tonnage) - (3 tons to a minimum of 0) < (10%)*(Mech tonnage)

So a 40 ton Phantom, assuming all protos have clamps, can carry without a movement penalty:
2x 5 ton (or less) Protos
1x 4 ton (or less) Proto & 1x 6 ton (or less) Proto
1x 3 ton (or less) Proto & 1x 7 ton (or less) Proto
1x 7 ton (or less) Proto

That same Phantom, assuming all protos have clamps, can carry with a movement penalty dropping it's speed to 6/9:
2x 9 ton (or less) Protos
1x 10-15 ton Proto

Ok, I was right it does cut the movement in half if you carry two so doubling up with two protos per 'Mech would be a bad idea.


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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #26 on: 11 July 2012, 17:02:02 »
Ok, I was right it does cut the movement in half if you carry two so doubling up with two protos per 'Mech would be a bad idea.

Close enough, it may cut it in half if you carry two

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #27 on: 11 July 2012, 18:23:26 »

The good news for Omnimechs is that they allow the player to subtract 3 from the weight of the carried Protos, when calculating the "external cargo" tonnage. The ability to carry up to six BA troopers without a MP penalty allows for this helpful little rule.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #28 on: 14 July 2012, 03:19:01 »
I consider the 'Base model" Roc to be just about perfect the way it is, and I really don't see any need to modify it.  It's a 5/8/5 unit that handles terrain that gives most 'mechs fits, they work Per the Clan ROE in groups of 5 (and in play all five move on the same 'tick' of hte clock), and it's about 50% of a Nova for firepower, while being somewhat harder to one-shot the whole Point, wihtout losing manuever.

Role's easy too: they work to escort slow assault machines (Turkina, Dire wolf, Clan-variant Annihilator, etc), can do many of hte same duties as a good medium 'mech (point for point, there may be an edge for the protos here-distribution gives terrain advantage, after all...), and they have better mobility in an urban fight or wooded area than "Proper battlemechs".

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #29 on: 14 July 2012, 16:26:16 »
I see the Flamberg 2 (or 3)  has a new job to play at. That seven hex jump would be great for hopping Rocs around.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #30 on: 14 July 2012, 22:17:28 »
I see the Flamberg 2 (or 3)  has a new job to play at. That seven hex jump would be great for hopping Rocs around.

too bad the Falcons do not do anything with Protomechs anymore, as they believed the Scientists sabotaging with
the Erinyes...
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #31 on: 14 July 2012, 23:44:03 »
having falling behind on the newer stuff i miss out on the clamps, but the thought of putting a roc on top of a clan quad has me giggling particular if it a hell horse one.  can't help but have an image of a roc riding bare back on a balius

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #32 on: 15 July 2012, 01:22:59 »
having falling behind on the newer stuff i miss out on the clamps, but the thought of putting a roc on top of a clan quad has me giggling particular if it a hell horse one.  can't help but have an image of a roc riding bare back on a balius

However, by the rules, it would either be riding on the front or the back...so...it would be like Bow from the old She-ra
cartoon riding the back of a runaway chariot...
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #33 on: 15 July 2012, 22:12:38 »
However, by the rules, it would either be riding on the front or the back...so...it would be like Bow from the old She-ra
cartoon riding the back of a runaway chariot...

spoil sport... not sure i want to see the image of it hanging off the rear they better off using it like a forward shield.  I so want to have an anime  battletech again this time done right just to see how it would actually look like when they are on.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #34 on: 16 July 2012, 08:24:29 »
too bad the Falcons do not do anything with Protomechs anymore, as they believed the Scientists sabotaging with
the Erinyes...
Same for the Bears and the Kuma and Kuma 3
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #35 on: 16 July 2012, 09:20:04 »
Same for the Bears and the Kuma and Kuma 3

Um..the Kuma and Kuma 3 were both 'Mechs..
Now, there is that one tank that the Rasalhagues beat in trials using Axels...
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #36 on: 16 July 2012, 10:39:21 »
too bad the Falcons do not do anything with Protomechs anymore, as they believed the Scientists sabotaging with
the Erinyes...
Very true but that may change someday in the future...of course when you have a large 'Mech production ability, protos are not likely to be deemed necessary.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #37 on: 16 July 2012, 10:57:36 »
Now, there is that one tank that the Rasalhagues beat in trials using Axels...

The Vidar from TRO: Prototypes? To be fair, that one was beaten by an Axel IIC, which uses Clantech itself and has a distinct edge in firepower at 16+ hexes, where its superior speed can easily allow it to stay throughout the fight -- not by the old Inner Sphere models.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #38 on: 16 July 2012, 11:20:27 »
The Vidar from TRO: Prototypes? To be fair, that one was beaten by an Axel IIC, which uses Clantech itself and has a distinct edge in firepower at 16+ hexes, where its superior speed can easily allow it to stay throughout the fight -- not by the old Inner Sphere models.

Frankly? I think a standard Axel or 3050's era Axel Upgrade, even without the IIC treatment, could beat up a Vidar
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #39 on: 16 July 2012, 11:48:10 »
Frankly? I think a standard Axel or 3050's era Axel Upgrade, even without the IIC treatment, could beat up a Vidar

Hm...3/5 vs. 2/3, advantage Axel. That's pretty much where it ends, though -- AC/20 vs. four LCLs, 10 LRM tubes vs. 30 Artemis V-guided ones (backed by two anti-missile systems), and 168 armor points vs. 201.

No, I think I see where that fight would be going in a hurry unless the Axel could explicitly arrange for a short-range ambush right from the start. There's good reason the Vidar's BV is almost exactly 1.5 times that of the Axel.

Okay, enough off-topicness, I think. :)

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #40 on: 16 July 2012, 14:13:55 »
Um..the Kuma and Kuma 3 were both 'Mechs..
Now, there is that one tank that the Rasalhagues beat in trials using Axels...
I mean using those two as transports for Protos with Magclamps.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #41 on: 16 July 2012, 15:32:36 »
Hm...3/5 vs. 2/3, advantage Axel. That's pretty much where it ends, though -- AC/20 vs. four LCLs, 10 LRM tubes vs. 30 Artemis V-guided ones (backed by two anti-missile systems), and 168 armor points vs. 201.

No, I think I see where that fight would be going in a hurry unless the Axel could explicitly arrange for a short-range ambush right from the start. There's good reason the Vidar's BV is almost exactly 1.5 times that of the Axel.

Okay, enough off-topicness, I think. :)

Two stationary gun positions (or semi-stationary, at any rate) advantage to range and damage throw weight.  Both of those pillboxes-on-motive fit that description.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #42 on: 15 April 2015, 16:04:43 »
 [brew] Arise lost thread, arise.

I am necroing this thread with fresh experience over the weekend. It wasn't with the Z variant as I had hoped, but the Roc 3. Even without jump jets, this version performed well in the broken terrain we were using. I had a Trey of the Roc 3 and I used them to hunt the Steel Viper's fast 'Mechs that came jumping in ahead of the rest of the force. Even with the lighter armor, they survived a good number of turns and helped take down a Grendel, a Mist Lynx, and helped bang up a Viper and Fire Falcon (didn't get to finish the battle). Having the MPL in the Main Gun was a bonus, since I don't think I took any MG hits in the game. Not having to worry about losing your only weapon when you take torso crits was a big help in getting another turn or two of use before losing a Proto.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #43 on: 15 April 2015, 17:14:58 »
The Roc 3 is surprisingly potent. It's the cheapest unit in the Clan arsenal to carry a Medium Pulse Laser, and the lack of jump jets isn't that huge a deal since it keeps that respectable 5/8 movement profile. The armor drop is a bit of a pain, but really not all that bad. It still has enough to take at least 2 ER Medium hits, possibly more. I think how wantec used it is the ideal; using them in urban terrain looks like it could work, but then you either:
-End up not needing the pulse bonus more often than not, or,
-Bemoan the lack of jump jets in order to keep up with other targets.

Having an MPL in the main gun is probably one of the few situations where I like them. Main Gun hits are rare enough to not matter in most games, but arm hits are another matter. In this case, losing an arm isn't too bad - the pulse bonus and lost arm penalty will end up cancelling each other out. Meanwhile, the effective 360 degree coverage means that it won't be outmaneuvered by the lighter targets it excels at taking down. I like it.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #44 on: 16 April 2015, 06:42:44 »
I've used the Roc 2 as an area denial system.  In the old Martial Olympiad format, I'd take them as one of my units in a light clan coyote snatch and grab force (I was a Demo guy and ran an event or two and had a spoiler force.)  So you focus on unit and try to jab it for fifty and... OH CRAP IT'S GUNNERY IS A 0???  Yeah, Heavy Who Cares about the +1.  Those guys were a blunt instrument of death.  I think I lost one or two, but they legged a Wolverine and a Shadow Hawk and forced a Demolisher to back off while on of the Roc's raced the flag over to my waiting Viper to sprint/jump off board.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #45 on: 16 April 2015, 07:18:57 »
The terrain we were in was more hills and woods than urban, so the enemy was still generating +3 and +4 to-hit modifiers. And yeah the pulse bonus helped there. But with some careful movement choices I could limit how many enemy 'Mechs had shots at my Protos.

And like yours Savage Coyote, mine were used for area denial, almost always moving last to be in a position to not let those enemy 'Mechs get away.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #46 on: 21 April 2015, 04:41:11 »
*hmms* Urban terrain..Good thing about Protomechs is that the do not make piloting checks..
Original rules, there was some confusion with the wording, so I am not sure if it is still that way:
do they still move through buildings like infantry? Or do they move like 'Mechs? If they move
like infantry....Jump jets are not a problem! ;) And, if the enemy does not have jump jets, and
are fighting along pavement...then the 'does not do pilot checks' things for ProtoMechs is even
better, and thus, the Roc 3 is actually really good in a city.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #47 on: 21 April 2015, 08:00:32 »
do they still move through buildings like infantry? Or do they move like 'Mechs?

It's sort of a halfway in between. Total War, page 168.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #48 on: 03 May 2015, 07:07:08 »
It's sort of a halfway in between. Total War, page 168.

Yeah, so that 5/8 ground speed means that in a city, it can, at a run, cut through a building on most
city maps...worse is: it could move to the last hex, and shoot out, using the building for cover as
it fires that Medium Pulse Laser..Come to think of it, any Protomech with decent speed and decent
weapons becomes rather scary when it costs them only 2 MP per hex..
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #49 on: 10 May 2015, 19:20:16 »
The Roc is the only Protomech I've ever seen used in a game, and they didn't last very long.  The guy running them charged them across open ground at me and got slaughtered by my long range weaponry (I had a Warhammer IIC 4 and a Ha Otoko 2) before they could get close.  Which was really odd because I'd deliberately set up the map so that he could have maintained cover most of way to my base (his objective was to capture it).

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #50 on: 10 May 2015, 19:57:19 »
The Roc is the only Protomech I've ever seen used in a game, and they didn't last very long.  The guy running them charged them across open ground at me and got slaughtered by my long range weaponry (I had a Warhammer IIC 4 and a Ha Otoko 2) before they could get close.  Which was really odd because I'd deliberately set up the map so that he could have maintained cover most of way to my base (his objective was to capture it).

Ogre, that guy was clue-less on using Protomechs, and seemed to be trying to use them like light 'mechs.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #51 on: 10 May 2015, 21:41:13 »
Yeah, that's what I thought.  I'd set up that game and had expected to be on the side with the Protomechs, but ended up running the heavy mechs on the other team instead.  Sadly, that game turned out to sour my group to Protomechs so much that they've refused to use them ever since.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #52 on: 11 May 2015, 08:36:24 »
Yeah, that's what I thought.  I'd set up that game and had expected to be on the side with the Protomechs, but ended up running the heavy mechs on the other team instead.  Sadly, that game turned out to sour my group to Protomechs so much that they've refused to use them ever since.
Sounds like it might be a good idea to try and run another game with Protos, this time with you on the Proto side. Maybe you could bring printouts of some of GreekFire's articles, at least the ones on the general strategies of using Protos.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #53 on: 11 May 2015, 09:35:08 »
If all else fails, bring a mixed society force.
They might actually bring designs that can charge straight at an assault mech.
And then you don't.  ^-^
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #54 on: 12 May 2015, 07:40:37 »
Hey Greekfire, you know technically you could field a clan MPL for like 95 BV... Corona.  Though it would just stand there and die horribly on its own.
Though a point of them cost more than a Roc, but that's 5 MPL's...


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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #55 on: 12 May 2015, 10:13:01 »
Good point, although I'd never recommend bringing a single solitary Corona.

A full point of Coronas obviously has its strengths (and I'd fully expect it to win in a one-on-one dual between it and two Roc 3s), although ultimately their battlefield roles and the way they're played would be vastly different.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #56 on: 12 May 2015, 13:07:51 »
I'd take the Rocs for just about any mission outside of stand on this building and shoot any one who comes over here.  Corona look cool and are oh so Star Addery but the Roc is a better unit.


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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #57 on: 12 May 2015, 13:49:28 »
Why not bring a single Corona?
I thought that's +3 to hit?
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #58 on: 12 May 2015, 15:35:20 »
Why not bring a single Corona?
I thought that's +3 to hit?

Just +1, unfortunately...its 2 ground-based MP precludes it from getting the +1 Jump or +1 MM to-hit advantages that the Elemental has.

At the end of the day, I'd say that the Roc (and most ProtoMechs) are good at terrain denial through offensive use, while the Corona (and most Battle Armor) deny terrain through passive or defensive use. So to go back on what I said, a single Corona might see some limited use - if you can field it in its ideal terrain. But all of the perfect conditions would have to be there for it.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #59 on: 13 May 2015, 10:57:35 »
kinda surprised there isn't a Improved medium heavy laser version.

a point of those sound evil as heck for a ambush.

still got range issues like the standard heavy medium but without the targeting issues.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #60 on: 13 May 2015, 11:06:34 »
kinda surprised there isn't a Improved medium heavy laser version.

a point of those sound evil as heck for a ambush.

still got range issues like the standard heavy medium but without the targeting issues.

As near as I can tell, battle armor doesn't get to play with improved heavy lasers. Nothing I can find on short notice says they're allowed to use them, and they don't seem to appear on any relevant tables.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #61 on: 13 May 2015, 11:15:41 »
Protomechs can use Improved Heavy lasers- the Minotaur variant in Prototypes carries an Improved Heavy Small Laser.  The reason there are no Improved Heavy Medium laser Roc variants is probably because the last round of variants we got for it came out before that weapon moved out of the Experimental category.

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A. Lurker

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #62 on: 13 May 2015, 11:33:04 »
Protomechs can use Improved Heavy lasers- the Minotaur variant in Prototypes carries an Improved Heavy Small Laser.  The reason there are no Improved Heavy Medium laser Roc variants is probably because the last round of variants we got for it came out before that weapon moved out of the Experimental category.

...right. I got sidetracked by those posts about the Corona. Protos can use IHLs fine, I just don't think they're established as specifically battle armor gear yet.

wantec

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #63 on: 13 May 2015, 12:41:10 »
...right. I got sidetracked by those posts about the Corona. Protos can use IHLs fine, I just don't think they're established as specifically battle armor gear yet.
I'm not sure about the improved versions, but the standard Heavy Medium and Heavy Small lasers can be used on BA. The problem for the HML is that it's a full 1,000kg, so there's not many BA than can carry that (I think only Assault BA have enough space)
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A. Lurker

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #64 on: 13 May 2015, 13:27:47 »
I'm not sure about the improved versions, but the standard Heavy Medium and Heavy Small lasers can be used on BA. The problem for the HML is that it's a full 1,000kg, so there's not many BA than can carry that (I think only Assault BA have enough space)

Sure. Just, TacOps, where the improved versions are found, neither lists "BA" among the units they're available to (which it does for ER pulses and VSPLs) nor has BA equipment stats for them in the relevant table. So, looks like specifically those can't be put onto battle armor unless some development or other I'm unaware of has changed that since.

That's enough of a sidetrack though, I think. This thread is still about the Roc -- whose HML version could indeed be pretty painlessly be upgraded to the improved model. :) (Well...possibly modulo the explosive nature of the new laser. Come to think of it, I don't know for sure if and how Protos do handle an explosive weapon being hit...)

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #65 on: 13 May 2015, 13:40:47 »
Protomechs can use Improved Heavy lasers- the Minotaur variant in Prototypes carries an Improved Heavy Small Laser.  The reason there are no Improved Heavy Medium laser Roc variants is probably because the last round of variants we got for it came out before that weapon moved out of the Experimental category.

Well, we did get the Roc Z that chose to use a Medium Chemical Laser instead. Not a terrible choice at all, but it does reduce its range and firepower a bit compared to the main variants. The swap does save some weight (going from 2250 kg for the ER Medium+Heat Sinks to 1667 kg for the Chem Laser+Ammo), but most of that saved weight goes towards MagClamps that'll be of limited utility in most situations. Ah well.

For Improved Heavy Lasers, though, the Minotaur Z is the undeniable best. It packs a heavier punch than your standard Roc, has the same jumping mobility, carries more armor and magclamps...and all for less BV. It's amazing.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #66 on: 13 May 2015, 16:05:57 »
Exploding weapons on a proto just sounds like a bad idea.

Do protos just not have to worry about heat?  Frankly I never thought about it before.


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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #67 on: 13 May 2015, 16:18:45 »
Protos spend 250 kg per heatsink, and must have heatsinks to fire all their weapons.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #68 on: 13 May 2015, 18:35:31 »
Protos spend 250 kg per heatsink, and must have heatsinks to fire all their weapons.

Provided that they're energy weapons. Missiles and ballistics are free like vehicles.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #69 on: 13 May 2015, 19:47:39 »
As are chemical lasers.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #70 on: 13 May 2015, 22:42:42 »
basically they follow the same 'heat nuetral' approach as vehicles.. Ballistics and missiles basically don't generate heat, while energy weapons need enough heatsinks to vent all of it. (chemical lasers fall into a weird spot)

however, IIRC, they do not receive any free heatsinks with the engine.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #71 on: 14 May 2015, 00:02:11 »
Well, we did get the Roc Z that chose to use a Medium Chemical Laser instead. Not a terrible choice at all, but it does reduce its range and firepower a bit compared to the main variants. The swap does save some weight (going from 2250 kg for the ER Medium+Heat Sinks to 1667 kg for the Chem Laser+Ammo), but most of that saved weight goes towards MagClamps that'll be of limited utility in most situations. Ah well.

For Improved Heavy Lasers, though, the Minotaur Z is the undeniable best. It packs a heavier punch than your standard Roc, has the same jumping mobility, carries more armor and magclamps...and all for less BV. It's amazing.
Right, although I believe the jump jets of the original Roc could be straight swapped for the Mag Clamps.

basically they follow the same 'heat nuetral' approach as vehicles.. Ballistics and missiles basically don't generate heat, while energy weapons need enough heatsinks to vent all of it. (chemical lasers fall into a weird spot)

however, IIRC, they do not receive any free heatsinks with the engine.
Nope, no free engine heat sinks. One of the costs of shrinking the engines small enough to fit in a ProtoMech.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #72 on: 04 September 2017, 23:19:15 »
Post reavings who is the biggest user of the roc? HW and IS?

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #73 on: 04 September 2017, 23:58:49 »
The only clan that seems to use it with any frequency is the Snow Raven (Alliance) by the DA.  No home world clan still uses it as far as we know.  Its production probably phased out due to the availability of the Delphyne which is more or less the same design.

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #74 on: 11 September 2017, 23:05:46 »
Yeah, a Roc 3b would be interesting . . . with a iHML to negate the targeting penalty.  And as someone asked earlier, I do not think the weapon can actually be crit which makes it a decent choice.

Pretty sure the Foxes are still peddling them . . . and I thought Rocs were one of the Protos the Scorpion/Hellion mash up had access to or had used before Reaving.
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