Author Topic: Protomech of the Month: The Roc  (Read 7939 times)

StCptMara

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #30 on: 14 July 2012, 22:17:28 »
I see the Flamberg 2 (or 3)  has a new job to play at. That seven hex jump would be great for hopping Rocs around.

too bad the Falcons do not do anything with Protomechs anymore, as they believed the Scientists sabotaging with
the Erinyes...
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Marveryn

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #31 on: 14 July 2012, 23:44:03 »
having falling behind on the newer stuff i miss out on the clamps, but the thought of putting a roc on top of a clan quad has me giggling particular if it a hell horse one.  can't help but have an image of a roc riding bare back on a balius

StCptMara

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #32 on: 15 July 2012, 01:22:59 »
having falling behind on the newer stuff i miss out on the clamps, but the thought of putting a roc on top of a clan quad has me giggling particular if it a hell horse one.  can't help but have an image of a roc riding bare back on a balius

However, by the rules, it would either be riding on the front or the back...so...it would be like Bow from the old She-ra
cartoon riding the back of a runaway chariot...
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Marveryn

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #33 on: 15 July 2012, 22:12:38 »
However, by the rules, it would either be riding on the front or the back...so...it would be like Bow from the old She-ra
cartoon riding the back of a runaway chariot...

spoil sport... not sure i want to see the image of it hanging off the rear they better off using it like a forward shield.  I so want to have an anime  battletech again this time done right just to see how it would actually look like when they are on.

wantec

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #34 on: 16 July 2012, 08:24:29 »
too bad the Falcons do not do anything with Protomechs anymore, as they believed the Scientists sabotaging with
the Erinyes...
Same for the Bears and the Kuma and Kuma 3
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StCptMara

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #35 on: 16 July 2012, 09:20:04 »
Same for the Bears and the Kuma and Kuma 3

Um..the Kuma and Kuma 3 were both 'Mechs..
Now, there is that one tank that the Rasalhagues beat in trials using Axels...
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Trajan Helmer

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #36 on: 16 July 2012, 10:39:21 »
too bad the Falcons do not do anything with Protomechs anymore, as they believed the Scientists sabotaging with
the Erinyes...
Very true but that may change someday in the future...of course when you have a large 'Mech production ability, protos are not likely to be deemed necessary.
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A. Lurker

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #37 on: 16 July 2012, 10:57:36 »
Now, there is that one tank that the Rasalhagues beat in trials using Axels...

The Vidar from TRO: Prototypes? To be fair, that one was beaten by an Axel IIC, which uses Clantech itself and has a distinct edge in firepower at 16+ hexes, where its superior speed can easily allow it to stay throughout the fight -- not by the old Inner Sphere models.

StCptMara

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #38 on: 16 July 2012, 11:20:27 »
The Vidar from TRO: Prototypes? To be fair, that one was beaten by an Axel IIC, which uses Clantech itself and has a distinct edge in firepower at 16+ hexes, where its superior speed can easily allow it to stay throughout the fight -- not by the old Inner Sphere models.

Frankly? I think a standard Axel or 3050's era Axel Upgrade, even without the IIC treatment, could beat up a Vidar
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A. Lurker

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #39 on: 16 July 2012, 11:48:10 »
Frankly? I think a standard Axel or 3050's era Axel Upgrade, even without the IIC treatment, could beat up a Vidar

Hm...3/5 vs. 2/3, advantage Axel. That's pretty much where it ends, though -- AC/20 vs. four LCLs, 10 LRM tubes vs. 30 Artemis V-guided ones (backed by two anti-missile systems), and 168 armor points vs. 201.

No, I think I see where that fight would be going in a hurry unless the Axel could explicitly arrange for a short-range ambush right from the start. There's good reason the Vidar's BV is almost exactly 1.5 times that of the Axel.

Okay, enough off-topicness, I think. :)

wantec

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #40 on: 16 July 2012, 14:13:55 »
Um..the Kuma and Kuma 3 were both 'Mechs..
Now, there is that one tank that the Rasalhagues beat in trials using Axels...
I mean using those two as transports for Protos with Magclamps.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #41 on: 16 July 2012, 15:32:36 »
Hm...3/5 vs. 2/3, advantage Axel. That's pretty much where it ends, though -- AC/20 vs. four LCLs, 10 LRM tubes vs. 30 Artemis V-guided ones (backed by two anti-missile systems), and 168 armor points vs. 201.

No, I think I see where that fight would be going in a hurry unless the Axel could explicitly arrange for a short-range ambush right from the start. There's good reason the Vidar's BV is almost exactly 1.5 times that of the Axel.

Okay, enough off-topicness, I think. :)

Two stationary gun positions (or semi-stationary, at any rate) advantage to range and damage throw weight.  Both of those pillboxes-on-motive fit that description.
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wantec

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #42 on: 15 April 2015, 16:04:43 »
 [brew] Arise lost thread, arise.

I am necroing this thread with fresh experience over the weekend. It wasn't with the Z variant as I had hoped, but the Roc 3. Even without jump jets, this version performed well in the broken terrain we were using. I had a Trey of the Roc 3 and I used them to hunt the Steel Viper's fast 'Mechs that came jumping in ahead of the rest of the force. Even with the lighter armor, they survived a good number of turns and helped take down a Grendel, a Mist Lynx, and helped bang up a Viper and Fire Falcon (didn't get to finish the battle). Having the MPL in the Main Gun was a bonus, since I don't think I took any MG hits in the game. Not having to worry about losing your only weapon when you take torso crits was a big help in getting another turn or two of use before losing a Proto.
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GreekFire

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #43 on: 15 April 2015, 17:14:58 »
The Roc 3 is surprisingly potent. It's the cheapest unit in the Clan arsenal to carry a Medium Pulse Laser, and the lack of jump jets isn't that huge a deal since it keeps that respectable 5/8 movement profile. The armor drop is a bit of a pain, but really not all that bad. It still has enough to take at least 2 ER Medium hits, possibly more. I think how wantec used it is the ideal; using them in urban terrain looks like it could work, but then you either:
-End up not needing the pulse bonus more often than not, or,
-Bemoan the lack of jump jets in order to keep up with other targets.

Having an MPL in the main gun is probably one of the few situations where I like them. Main Gun hits are rare enough to not matter in most games, but arm hits are another matter. In this case, losing an arm isn't too bad - the pulse bonus and lost arm penalty will end up cancelling each other out. Meanwhile, the effective 360 degree coverage means that it won't be outmaneuvered by the lighter targets it excels at taking down. I like it.
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Savage Coyote

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #44 on: 16 April 2015, 06:42:44 »
I've used the Roc 2 as an area denial system.  In the old Martial Olympiad format, I'd take them as one of my units in a light clan coyote snatch and grab force (I was a Demo guy and ran an event or two and had a spoiler force.)  So you focus on unit and try to jab it for fifty and... OH CRAP IT'S GUNNERY IS A 0???  Yeah, Heavy Who Cares about the +1.  Those guys were a blunt instrument of death.  I think I lost one or two, but they legged a Wolverine and a Shadow Hawk and forced a Demolisher to back off while on of the Roc's raced the flag over to my waiting Viper to sprint/jump off board.

wantec

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #45 on: 16 April 2015, 07:18:57 »
The terrain we were in was more hills and woods than urban, so the enemy was still generating +3 and +4 to-hit modifiers. And yeah the pulse bonus helped there. But with some careful movement choices I could limit how many enemy 'Mechs had shots at my Protos.

And like yours Savage Coyote, mine were used for area denial, almost always moving last to be in a position to not let those enemy 'Mechs get away.
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StCptMara

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #46 on: 21 April 2015, 04:41:11 »
*hmms* Urban terrain..Good thing about Protomechs is that the do not make piloting checks..
Original rules, there was some confusion with the wording, so I am not sure if it is still that way:
do they still move through buildings like infantry? Or do they move like 'Mechs? If they move
like infantry....Jump jets are not a problem! ;) And, if the enemy does not have jump jets, and
are fighting along pavement...then the 'does not do pilot checks' things for ProtoMechs is even
better, and thus, the Roc 3 is actually really good in a city.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #47 on: 21 April 2015, 08:00:32 »
do they still move through buildings like infantry? Or do they move like 'Mechs?

It's sort of a halfway in between. Total War, page 168.
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StCptMara

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #48 on: 03 May 2015, 07:07:08 »
It's sort of a halfway in between. Total War, page 168.

Yeah, so that 5/8 ground speed means that in a city, it can, at a run, cut through a building on most
city maps...worse is: it could move to the last hex, and shoot out, using the building for cover as
it fires that Medium Pulse Laser..Come to think of it, any Protomech with decent speed and decent
weapons becomes rather scary when it costs them only 2 MP per hex..
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #49 on: 10 May 2015, 19:20:16 »
The Roc is the only Protomech I've ever seen used in a game, and they didn't last very long.  The guy running them charged them across open ground at me and got slaughtered by my long range weaponry (I had a Warhammer IIC 4 and a Ha Otoko 2) before they could get close.  Which was really odd because I'd deliberately set up the map so that he could have maintained cover most of way to my base (his objective was to capture it).

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StCptMara

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #50 on: 10 May 2015, 19:57:19 »
The Roc is the only Protomech I've ever seen used in a game, and they didn't last very long.  The guy running them charged them across open ground at me and got slaughtered by my long range weaponry (I had a Warhammer IIC 4 and a Ha Otoko 2) before they could get close.  Which was really odd because I'd deliberately set up the map so that he could have maintained cover most of way to my base (his objective was to capture it).

Ogre, that guy was clue-less on using Protomechs, and seemed to be trying to use them like light 'mechs.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #51 on: 10 May 2015, 21:41:13 »
Yeah, that's what I thought.  I'd set up that game and had expected to be on the side with the Protomechs, but ended up running the heavy mechs on the other team instead.  Sadly, that game turned out to sour my group to Protomechs so much that they've refused to use them ever since.

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wantec

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #52 on: 11 May 2015, 08:36:24 »
Yeah, that's what I thought.  I'd set up that game and had expected to be on the side with the Protomechs, but ended up running the heavy mechs on the other team instead.  Sadly, that game turned out to sour my group to Protomechs so much that they've refused to use them ever since.
Sounds like it might be a good idea to try and run another game with Protos, this time with you on the Proto side. Maybe you could bring printouts of some of GreekFire's articles, at least the ones on the general strategies of using Protos.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #53 on: 11 May 2015, 09:35:08 »
If all else fails, bring a mixed society force.
They might actually bring designs that can charge straight at an assault mech.
And then you don't.  ^-^
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #54 on: 12 May 2015, 07:40:37 »
Hey Greekfire, you know technically you could field a clan MPL for like 95 BV... Corona.  Though it would just stand there and die horribly on its own.
Though a point of them cost more than a Roc, but that's 5 MPL's...


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GreekFire

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #55 on: 12 May 2015, 10:13:01 »
Good point, although I'd never recommend bringing a single solitary Corona.

A full point of Coronas obviously has its strengths (and I'd fully expect it to win in a one-on-one dual between it and two Roc 3s), although ultimately their battlefield roles and the way they're played would be vastly different.
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cold1

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #56 on: 12 May 2015, 13:07:51 »
I'd take the Rocs for just about any mission outside of stand on this building and shoot any one who comes over here.  Corona look cool and are oh so Star Addery but the Roc is a better unit.


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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #57 on: 12 May 2015, 13:49:28 »
Why not bring a single Corona?
I thought that's +3 to hit?
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GreekFire

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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #58 on: 12 May 2015, 15:35:20 »
Why not bring a single Corona?
I thought that's +3 to hit?

Just +1, unfortunately...its 2 ground-based MP precludes it from getting the +1 Jump or +1 MM to-hit advantages that the Elemental has.

At the end of the day, I'd say that the Roc (and most ProtoMechs) are good at terrain denial through offensive use, while the Corona (and most Battle Armor) deny terrain through passive or defensive use. So to go back on what I said, a single Corona might see some limited use - if you can field it in its ideal terrain. But all of the perfect conditions would have to be there for it.
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Re: Protomech of the Month: The Roc
« Reply #59 on: 13 May 2015, 10:57:35 »
kinda surprised there isn't a Improved medium heavy laser version.

a point of those sound evil as heck for a ambush.

still got range issues like the standard heavy medium but without the targeting issues.