Author Topic: VotW: Hanse MBT  (Read 9609 times)

JadeHellbringer

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VotW: Hanse MBT
« on: 07 April 2014, 13:49:03 »


I got bored, so I came back. Sucks to be you.

After the good response the Schildkrote article got, I kind of felt like ducking back in and doing another article sometime. But on what? A test run with a few vehicles this week gave me the answer in the form of one of the more... unusual... vehicles produced in 3145 (and that's saying something), the Hanse. It's good, it's bad, it's... interesting. Let's give it a look.

First and foremost, the background. Much like last week's Schildkrote, the Hanse (named for... ah... I can't imagine why the Federated Suns used that name for a tank, anyone? ;) )was intended for frontline work, and due to its problems was relegated to militias and other second-line action. And, just like its Lyran cousin, this no doubt has made for some happy militias- maybe. It depends on whether the militia commander is smart or not, I suppose. Anyway, the idea for the AFFS was to create a next-gen tank that would succeed the old Manticore, and in some ways they've created a very powerful vehicle to do the job. It just is missing a certain something.

As always with VotW, let's cut the Hanse open and look inside. On 75 tons, a 4/6 frame is pretty vanilla- not overly fast, but not shockingly slow either. Since this is intended for advances against enemy lines, it's manageable anyway. A supercharger gives the ability to make sudden dashes up to eight hexes per turn, which gives the vehicle the sudden lunge-forward ability that could really make life or death choices easier in bad terrain, or to just suddenly be up in someone's face in open terrain. The engine is an XL, which is good, because all the weight we saved got put right back into heat sinks. We'll look at that later.

Next, the armor test. The VotW AC-20 is loaded, and it's in for a long day- as a 75 ton front line tank should be, the Hanse is a brick, with eleven tons of ferro-fibrous armor. While advancing, the crew can take comfort in sixty-one points of armor on the fore- four Gauss slugs won't crack that armor, and three of the AC's shots have only made the tank angry. This is good news, since the vehicle is intended to always face towards its enemy- again, more later on that. But it's no less of a slouch elsewhere either- the sides have 48 points, plenty enough to hold off flanking attacks for a while, and even the rear holds 40, enough to hold off the test cannon twice before causing problems. Killing a Hanse won't be fun. And of course, the ammo load is protected by CASE because it's 3145 and who designs a tank without that anymore?

However. There's a problem. You may have noticed that we didn't take the test gun to the turret. And that is because there isn't one. Wha? An MBT with no turret? Why did... huh? Yeah, I know. It's still armed to the teeth, it's just... well... sad.

Remember those heat sinks we found earlier? We needed them, because up front on a Hanse is a pair of mighty plasma rifles. Shy of maybe the LB-10X, maybe no weapon in the game is a more fearsome weapon for a tank to use against its tracked brethren, and this thing packs two. Twenty rounds each is more than enough for most large engagements, and gives the vehicle an awesome punch, delivering a PSR and heat to Battlemechs and a ridiculous hammerblow against just about everything else ever conceived. This is fun, seriously. The backup weapon to the rifles is a light AC-5, because it's not a Davion unit without an autocannon on it. Two tons of ammo allow you to switch between specialty types- I'm not much of a light AC fan, but there is some utility here. I'd much rather see it replaced with an LRM-10 or something along those lines, but as a backup weapon to the rifles it's not a bad choice. All of this, again, is faced forward because turrets are for chumps.

Well, okay, just MAIN turrets. Two side-sponsons give us the concession to sanity on the Hanse's full-frontal design, with a pair of light MGs in each. Half a ton of ammo feeds all four guns, plenty enough for a battle. This is plenty to cause infantry to go away and not bother the Hanse, but little more than humorous to battle armor or flanking vehicles or Mechs. Being on sponsons though, their arcs are very good, at least.

So... the obvious problem here. This is obviously a tank intended to go face-first into the enemy's lines, using the supercharger to get a burst of speed and rush right up in someone's face. But with only the most basic side defenses, what then? Anything in front of a Hanse is in for a very rough day, but anything NOT in front of it is in for an easy kill- it can't defend itself once it's in amongst the enemy as designed. That's bad- and the AFFS thought so too, pulling the Hanse off the front lines and into the rear areas. Militia crews ended up with a tough, powerful tank that requires some careful use- and that's hardly a bad thing to have, really. Mercenary units have ended up with a good number of these beasts as well, and- if the MWDA game is to be believed- can be found in service with House Steiner (via the Stormhammers), the Steel Wolves (and whatever mutations they've gone through), and amusingly Clan Jade Falcon- stop and think about that for a moment, how Falcon-mindset is this tank? Falcon armor crews must really love their Hanses.

So, using a Hanse requires a careful eye, and it sure helps to keep it near friends with turrets so someone can play bodyguard to your beast. Mobility hits should cause you to immediately pull back with what movement you still have- if you get immobilized, you've had it, no one is going to pass up an easy kill like a tank that can't do anything in reply but hold up a 'HELP' sign.

Fighting it is pretty obvious too, in theory at least. Flank that thing with units that are fast enough to get into its side and rear arcs, and hit it with cluster weapons until it stops moving. Pegasus, Harassers, Plainsmans, Cavalries, all good choices for the job. Anything you can do to avoid being in front of it is, naturally, a good thing. Battle armor swarming is another good idea, since it lacks the ability to really hurt them other than pings from the LMGs- probably a good way to get your own Hanse once you patch up the holes and hose out the interior. Come to think of it, that would be a good explanation for the Falcons' Hanses. Ew.

Anyway. Go nuts, chat it up. No miniature of the Hanse has been made for CSO to show off, but if you really want to see them in 3D the MWDA sculpt is actually a very nice one.
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Weirdo

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #1 on: 07 April 2014, 13:56:22 »
It's a superheavy StuG or Hetzer, and that's exactly how I plan to use it. 8)
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #2 on: 07 April 2014, 14:00:43 »
It's a superheavy StuG or Hetzer, and that's exactly how I plan to use it. 8)

I admit that I kept thinking of the old Swedish S-tank as I looked over the Hanse here.



The Hanse mini, when it comes out, needs to have an arrow decal on each front fender and the words 'THIS END TOWARD ENEMY' on it somewhere as well with another forward-arrow.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #3 on: 07 April 2014, 14:01:44 »
its a battletech equivalent of the Stridsvagn 103. an MBT exploiting low profile for defense, resulting in limited fields of fire. high mobility, but a design that works best from defensive stances.

you'd want to use the Hanse the same way as its swedish cousin. strategic offense, tactical defense. use your high mobility to get into firing positions that let you hit a target unawares and from cover, then relocate to a new position. while your guns are not super long ranged, you have enough range that you ought to be engaging from 6+ hexes out.. just eat the medium and long range to hit penalties, you want to keep the enemy from getting in your face. the sponsons are there to keep enemy infantry and BA from getting too close.

edit: darn slow connection... hellbie got the comparison in before i could post, yet i typed it first. oh well.
but i wil lsay, that visually this is closer ot the VT tank..
« Last Edit: 07 April 2014, 14:04:30 by glitterboy2098 »

Alexander Knight

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #4 on: 07 April 2014, 14:10:08 »
The Hanse mini, when it comes out, needs to have an arrow decal on each front fender and the words 'THIS END TOWARD ENEMY' on it somewhere as well with another forward-arrow.

So...like a 75 ton claymore?  I *like*it!  :D

Really though, the Hanse screams "pack hunter" to me.  Never operate them alone, so even if you flank one, his buddy is about to light up your life.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #5 on: 07 April 2014, 14:21:16 »
Oh, absoloutely. Run Hanses in wing-pairs, with one going after the target, and the other going after that threat to the lead tank.

Y'know, a well-run FedSuns armored force must be a true beauty to behold. Use Ziblers as scouts and bushwhackers to flush out enemy units, Krugers for skirmishing duties and guarding flanks(or harassing enemy flanks), Hanses as the main punch of the force...all to push or pull the bulk of the enemy force into that ravine where the Destriers are waiting. }:)
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #6 on: 07 April 2014, 14:30:43 »
Another good article, and another offbeat vehicle.
Not as frighteningly efficient as the Schildkröte at it's given niche, but it's got merit.
Have a heart for suboptimal vehicles.  :)
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #7 on: 07 April 2014, 14:48:09 »
  When I had a look at the TRO I wasn't happy. I saw that almost every design was flawed with something unsuspected. I saw the tank and had a look at the weapons. Cool, twin plasma rifles are very good weapons, a LAC/5 with precision ammo to hit light units and some MGs. Where's the snafu?  I saw the armor and the supercharger... it is a nice  tank. The same question appeared and, then I found it lacked a turret. Bravo! Snafu detected! It is a flaw not seen since ye olde TRO2750. Have a look at the Davion tanks of TRO 3067 and compare with the tank and the eye rolling will began.
 
  A great MBT was turned into an average tank... to add insult to injury it has 2 mighty useful sponson turrets with LMGs to kill everything that gets into its flank. The tonnage of the sponson turrets and LMGs could be used to put a turret but then the tank would be cool. It is a shame because it could have been a mighty MBT and right now it doesn't fit the bill.

  Right now it is a tricky and somewhat useful tank with a big "FLANK ME" sign stuck on it. This means that a conservative player would have a bad time trying to steer away from combat and getting into optimum range of his weapons. The Supercharger would be tricky to use. Finally, a more aggressive (and reckless) player will have fun using the supercharger and attacking enemies until somebody began to use the brain and uses a SRM-6 or LBX10 in the flank of the tank. Then the MBT with XL and supercharger will become a not so useful deterrent with a narrow arc of fire. Great article, great snafu.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #8 on: 07 April 2014, 14:59:26 »
The funny thing about the Hanse, to me, is that while everyone is putting it down because of the lack of a turret, I actually think that was a good idea.  Having to spread the armor out along a turret location isn't appealing.  Turrets lock all the time, and the additional bulk of mounting the guns in the turret means a comprimise somewhere else. 

Side sponsons are a decent enough alternative.

All i'm saying is that this thing is a flying brick by tank standards, with a nasty punch.  In an urban setting it is a possible 5/9 lightning bolt. 
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #9 on: 07 April 2014, 15:07:43 »
And now I'm thinking of a "Top Gun" line for the Hanse:

"Never leave your wingman."

<gets the mental image of a Hanse opening up the supercharger while "Highway to the Danger Zone" is blaring>

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #10 on: 07 April 2014, 15:09:34 »
I was literally typing a request for this tank when someone mentioned it in the scheduling thread! Glad to see someone else shared my interest.

I'm not convinced that a turret is needed to improve the Hanse. The very lack of a turret lets you herd your enemy, because nobody wants to risk a double shot of Plasma Rifle with a LAC 5 chaser. Since everyone is going to maneuver out of your arc, you can focus on the biggest problem and let your support clean up the rest.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #11 on: 07 April 2014, 15:14:43 »
Oh, absoloutely. Run Hanses in wing-pairs, with one going after the target, and the other going after that threat to the lead tank.

Y'know, a well-run FedSuns armored force must be a true beauty to behold. Use Ziblers as scouts and bushwhackers to flush out enemy units, Krugers for skirmishing duties and guarding flanks(or harassing enemy flanks), Hanses as the main punch of the force...all to push or pull the bulk of the enemy force into that ravine where the Destriers are waiting. }:)

And wait, let's not forget the Sorteks slipping into the rear and hitting your rear while you're pinned in place by the charging Hanses!  O0

There's no question that there's bonuses to not having a turret sometimes, but for a vehicle designed to run right down the enemy's throat, it's a big risk. I want to say that partnering it with other contemporary vehicles of similar movement capabilities to cover it is the way to go, but there isn't much that comes to mind, really other than... er... the Manticore that it was supposed to replace. Damn. That leaves us with either wasting the Hanse's speed bursts by sticking with heavy vehicles like Sorteks and Marksmans for defense, or rushing ahead and still getting flanked and crippled before the big guys can help.

But, like I said, the idea of the Falcons using this thing makes me grin. It charges in with guns blazing, and to hell with being flanked- who cares? A Falcon charges into the face of the enemy, after all! Did we lose the tank? Who cares, it's a tank, screw it! The more I think about it, the FedSuns could do worse than setting up a trade agreement with Malvina for as many Hanses as they'd like. ;)
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Weirdo

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #12 on: 07 April 2014, 15:19:44 »
As a Falcon player, I approve of this. As a RotS player likely to face said tanks, I still approve.

I'm not convinced that a turret is needed to improve the Hanse. The very lack of a turret lets you herd your enemy, because nobody wants to risk a double shot of Plasma Rifle with a LAC 5 chaser. Since everyone is going to maneuver out of your arc, you can focus on the biggest problem and let your support clean up the rest.

A very good point. Much like minefields, or the use of torpedoes in BFG or Leviathans, sometimes the best usage of a weapon isn't to hurt the enemy, but to encourage him into moving in ways you can predict, thus letting you hurt him more.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #13 on: 07 April 2014, 15:32:00 »
As a Falcon player, I approve of this. As a RotS player likely to face said tanks, I still approve.

A very good point. Much like minefields, or the use of torpedoes in BFG or Leviathans, sometimes the best usage of a weapon isn't to hurt the enemy, but to encourage him into moving in ways you can predict, thus letting you hurt him more.

I think I see what you're saying there. In a way it becomes sort of like a 3145 equivalent to the Demolisher or Hunchback- an area denial weapon. You have several options available to you for movement, but several involve ending up in front of an angry Hanse, so you get herded into moves that don't involve plasma for lunch- and end up in the face of something else instead. Makes sense to me.

I did have a thought for this thing though. That LAC just still rankles me- it had to match the MWDA sculpt, so I get why it's there, but it just feels like that's seven tons (ammo included) that could have been used for something else. So I started thinking... Narc beacon, two tons of ammo, C3 slave, a fore-mounted LMG, and another half-ton of ammo for the LMGs? Still keeps the sculpt intact (that could be a Narc!), gives it the ability to connect to a network, assist inbound missiles (we're charging into the enemy's face anyway, right?)... and all we lose is a pretty questionable weapon system.
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Weirdo

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #14 on: 07 April 2014, 15:54:04 »
Maybe it's the Marik in me, but I like the flexibility of the LAC. It's not in the do-anything league of a well-supplied LRM rack, but they still have plenty of options. My personal favorites are precision rounds for obvious reasons, and flak shells for dealing with enemy VTOLs or WiGEs. The Liaos did just get a fancy new scout/strike WiGE, so being able to keep that off your back is probably a good thing.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
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Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #15 on: 07 April 2014, 17:00:38 »
Maybe it's the Marik in me, but I like the flexibility of the LAC. It's not in the do-anything league of a well-supplied LRM rack, but they still have plenty of options. My personal favorites are precision rounds for obvious reasons, and flak shells for dealing with enemy VTOLs or WiGEs. The Liaos did just get a fancy new scout/strike WiGE, so being able to keep that off your back is probably a good thing.

You might want to invest in a couple of Kinnols to help screen these guys.  The AFFS does have some.  If you're not willing to spring for fancy-ass Republic imports, the Vedette's fuel cell variant would also be capable of keeping up, although its armor is as bad as ever so keep it out of the immediate fire fight.  The Manticore LB-X can't keep up with a charging Hanse but it does have the armor to survive in that kind of environment provided the Hanses are attracting enough fire.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #16 on: 07 April 2014, 17:16:18 »
Given that looking through TRO 3145 FedSuns always puts me in a Desert Fox kinda mood, I think of those options I'd prefer the Vedette. I like the idea of Davion's tank forces being lighter than their opposition on average, but using the resulting tactical and strategic mobility to gain the upper hand in the long run.
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Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #17 on: 07 April 2014, 17:19:24 »
It's a neat tank that requires a skilled hand to get the most out of it. Either use units to herd the enemy into it's line of fire, or use the Hanse to move units into the line of fire of other units. It also very clearly highlights that during the Republic era the AFFS had a more defensive mindset. But the supercharger shows that they still cared about aggression and speed in the fight.

As for the LAC, I don't mind them so much. They are a little on the heavy side I find personally. I really just wish that there was an alternate ammo that was more effective against infantry. (In general that is, with the plasma rifles infantry in front of the Hanse MBT is dead anyway) Load it up with flak and precision or all of one of those two if you know you are going to be dealing with a lot of airborne threats or none at all.

You might want to invest in a couple of Kinnols to help screen these guys.  The AFFS does have some.  If you're not willing to spring for fancy-ass Republic imports, the Vedette's fuel cell variant would also be capable of keeping up, although its armor is as bad as ever so keep it out of the immediate fire fight.  The Manticore LB-X can't keep up with a charging Hanse but it does have the armor to survive in that kind of environment provided the Hanses are attracting enough fire.
What about the Manteuffel for a flanking unit for the Hanse? It can keep up with charging units or use it's extra speed over a none charging Hanse to move into a better covering position. It has a turret and some really nasty guns to convince people to be elsewhere. And some of them come with a C3 so they can provide spotting for other units even further back.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #18 on: 07 April 2014, 17:23:18 »
What about the Manteuffel for a flanking unit for the Hanse? It can keep up with charging units or use it's extra speed over a none charging Hanse to move into a better covering position. It has a turret and some really nasty guns to convince people to be elsewhere. And some of them come with a C3 so they can provide spotting for other units even further back.

Not a bad idea. You could have the Hanses on point as shock tanks, with the Mantueffels following immediately behind to capitalize on the damage they do and watch their flanks at the same time.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #19 on: 07 April 2014, 17:23:25 »
Really nice article

Me personally I think the Hanse is just the Tank the AFFS needs right now.

They are on the back foot the Hanse is more a Tank Destroyer than an MBT.  They are good for holding the line stopping the enemy in there tracks making them rethink their ideas.

If the AFFS get back on their feet the Hanse is the centre line of a slow march forwards obviously it needs support but since when do you only have one type of unit on the field?

I'd have probably been happy with this tank 3/5 drop the supercharger (6 instead of 5 meh) beef up the sponsons with some flamers and SRMs make this tank something you don't want to annoy

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #20 on: 07 April 2014, 17:39:30 »
Not a bad idea. You could have the Hanses on point as shock tanks, with the Mantueffels following immediately behind to capitalize on the damage they do and watch their flanks at the same time.

Absolutely.  The reason I suggested the units I did was specifically because they all have an LB 10-X to cover the flak role but if that's not one of your criteria, the Manteuffel has several excellent configurations to choose from as a complement to the Hanse.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #21 on: 07 April 2014, 17:52:26 »
I did have a thought for this thing though. That LAC just still rankles me- it had to match the MWDA sculpt, so I get why it's there, but it just feels like that's seven tons (ammo included) that could have been used for something else.

I dunno.  7 tons, matching range brackets to the plasma rifles.  You're not going to do much better with 7 tons of ballistics.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #22 on: 07 April 2014, 18:11:15 »
I dunno.  7 tons, matching range brackets to the plasma rifles.  You're not going to do much better with 7 tons of ballistics.

True enough. I guess I just kind of feel like it's seven tons that could be better used- my Narc idea above, the LRM I suggested in the article... maybe a targeting computer in place of the LAC to make the plasmas that much more of an 'oh god, why am I on fire' problem... There's a lot of options that make life interesting beyond a LAC-5's performance, I guess. But, that's just me.

Going to the discussion of what works well with it, I forgot about the Manteuffel completely since it's not a Davion-designed tank, but... they do use it in good numbers, and it's a perfect solution to the problem. I approve! And with its pod-based weaponry, it can be changed to cover the Hanse's advance based on the terrain and situation- hell, as an Omni it can even bring along some Cavaliers or Pumas to keep enemy BA from visiting. I wish I'd thought of this before- well done!

The other one that occurred was the Musketeer- a quartet of them zipping around with two platoons of Hanses makes for a powerful advance, and the hovercraft can quickly move to engage troublesome flankers to keep the Hanses moving. But, I'm also willing to admit to an irrational love of the Musketeer, so I try to cram it into any Davion force I come up with.  ^-^
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #23 on: 07 April 2014, 18:13:35 »
I dunno.  7 tons, matching range brackets to the plasma rifles.  You're not going to do much better with 7 tons of ballistics.

Not really, although if you want to be a bit of an ass you could swap a plasma rifle and the LAC/5 for a couple of LB 10-Xs and three tons of ammo.  You lose the hideous power of a double-barreled plasma rifle but 20 LB-X clusters is going to make a real mess of someone's treads.

And between their own domestic production and imports from places like the Republic, Davion has a lot of good conventional assets depending on what exactly you're trying to do.  The militias are probably still using the Challenger Mk XV, for instance.  I think there could be some serious hammer-and-anvil tactics in the making for your militia commanders combining those assault tanks with a lance of Hanses to play beater.
« Last Edit: 07 April 2014, 18:15:53 by Moonsword »

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #24 on: 07 April 2014, 18:19:46 »
Not really, although if you want to be a bit of an ass you could swap a plasma rifle and the LAC/5 for a couple of LB 10-Xs and three tons of ammo.  You lose the hideous power of a double-barreled plasma rifle but 20 LB-X clusters is going to make a real mess of someone's treads.

And between their own domestic production and imports from places like the Republic, Davion has a lot of good conventional assets depending on what exactly you're trying to do.  The militias are probably still using the Challenger Mk XV, for instance.  I think there could be some serious hammer-and-anvil tactics in the making for your militia commanders combining those assault tanks with a lance of Hanses to play beater.

I think you just redesigned the Moltke. Well done!  ;D

There IS something to be said for using big stuff like Challengers, Alacorns, and Haseks to smash into the enemy line, and once the battle is engaged use Hanses as a 'second-wave'- now that the enemy is busy with other problems, the Hanses can slam into them full-force without as much worry about being flanked.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #25 on: 07 April 2014, 18:21:18 »
  A great MBT was turned into an average tank... to add insult to injury it has 2 mighty useful sponson turrets with LMGs to kill everything that gets into its flank. The tonnage of the sponson turrets and LMGs could be used to put a turret but then the tank would be cool. It is a shame because it could have been a mighty MBT and right now it doesn't fit the bill.

  Right now it is a tricky and somewhat useful tank with a big "FLANK ME" sign stuck on it. This means that a conservative player would have a bad time trying to steer away from combat and getting into optimum range of his weapons. The Supercharger would be tricky to use. Finally, a more aggressive (and reckless) player will have fun using the supercharger and attacking enemies until somebody began to use the brain and uses a SRM-6 or LBX10 in the flank of the tank. Then the MBT with XL and supercharger will become a not so useful deterrent with a narrow arc of fire. Great article, great snafu.

I fail to see how the lack of a turret leads to a SNAFU. The main thing behind the Hanse is that is more durable then if it had a turret. Turrets lock up. Armor overall is burned. Hell, the tank is tough enough to survive two point blank HGRs to the rear. If you got that turret on there, you'd sacrifice protection all around AND make your weapons vulnerable.

Sure its untraditional but Hanse was never a traditional opponent now was he?  ;)

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #26 on: 07 April 2014, 18:27:58 »
I think you just redesigned the Moltke. Well done!  ;D

There IS something to be said for using big stuff like Challengers, Alacorns, and Haseks to smash into the enemy line, and once the battle is engaged use Hanses as a 'second-wave'- now that the enemy is busy with other problems, the Hanses can slam into them full-force without as much worry about being flanked.

There's another bit of deviousness to that specific recommendation.  Hanses are long on the ability to wear down armor but they lack both a big hole puncher's ability to simply smash single locations open (particularly against 'Mechs, which will spread smaller clusters around their locations more readily than tanks will) or really good crit-seeking.  Challenger XVs combine a Gauss rifle with an SB Gauss.  The Challengers open up to start weakening armor, then the Hanses smash into the flank.  Then the Challengers are able to decisively breach and start making a real mess of the guy's internals.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #27 on: 07 April 2014, 18:38:43 »
Going to the discussion of what works well with it, I forgot about the Manteuffel completely since it's not a Davion-designed tank, but... they do use it in good numbers, and it's a perfect solution to the problem. I approve! And with its pod-based weaponry, it can be changed to cover the Hanse's advance based on the terrain and situation- hell, as an Omni it can even bring along some Cavaliers or Pumas to keep enemy BA from visiting. I wish I'd thought of this before- well done!
Not a Davion tank? Aside from the German name they were always more prominent in AFFS forces and the only factory to ever produce them is Crofton, which lies deep in the heart of the Federated Suns. It always struck me that they gave it a German name because at the time the Federated Suns was ruled by Tharkad. And so appealing to Lyran nationalism got it into production over competing designs.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #28 on: 07 April 2014, 18:47:24 »
Not a Davion tank? Aside from the German name they were always more prominent in AFFS forces and the only factory to ever produce them is Crofton, which lies deep in the heart of the Federated Suns. It always struck me that they gave it a German name because at the time the Federated Suns was ruled by Tharkad. And so appealing to Lyran nationalism got it into production over competing designs.

I admit I always think of it as a Lyran tank in my head. Apologies.

Davion, Steiner, they all kind of look the same from the cockpit of a Summoner, you know? It's a long way up, and my eyesight isn't great.  ^-^
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #29 on: 07 April 2014, 18:50:55 »
Great, now I'm having the mental image of a seeing eye Kit Fox.  Or maybe an Elemental with a light probe on the weapon mount.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #30 on: 07 April 2014, 18:58:55 »
There's another bit of deviousness to that specific recommendation.  Hanses are long on the ability to wear down armor but they lack both a big hole puncher's ability to simply smash single locations open (particularly against 'Mechs, which will spread smaller clusters around their locations more readily than tanks will) or really good crit-seeking.  Challenger XVs combine a Gauss rifle with an SB Gauss.  The Challengers open up to start weakening armor, then the Hanses smash into the flank.  Then the Challengers are able to decisively breach and start making a real mess of the guy's internals.

Plasma Rifles deal a single big, 10 point punch to 'Mechs.  That was the standard by which hole-punchers were measured for centuries, so I'd say it holds up.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #31 on: 07 April 2014, 19:16:03 »
Great article, JHB. It's cool to see you doing these again, I still remember your original stuff from a decade ago.

One thing I think is interesting is to compare this with the neighboring CCAF's homegrown tank destroyer, the Predator. They're both turretless, but the Predator focuses on cheapness and speed whereas the Hanse is more expensive and more able to deal with varied threats.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #32 on: 07 April 2014, 19:50:31 »
Plasma Rifles deal a single big, 10 point punch to 'Mechs.  That was the standard by which hole-punchers were measured for centuries, so I'd say it holds up.

True.  For some reason I was thinking of their effects on vehicles there.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #33 on: 07 April 2014, 20:23:47 »
Something just occurred to me, probably JHB's comment about slamming Hanses into an enemy's flanks:

Between the Hanse's excellent straightline speed and support-style firepower, this tank is just BEGGING to be used with Off-map Movement. Engage the enemy, get him committed to a given front...and then suddenly, Hanse From The Side! >:D
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #34 on: 07 April 2014, 20:59:35 »
Something just occurred to me, probably JHB's comment about slamming Hanses into an enemy's flanks:

Between the Hanse's excellent straightline speed and support-style firepower, this tank is just BEGGING to be used with Off-map Movement. Engage the enemy, get him committed to a given front...and then suddenly, Hanse From The Side! >:D

With hidden unit rules or double-blind (even better), having a Hanse act as a giant Hetzer would be fun too. Some poor Enforcer walking down a street just suddenly bursts into flames and has no idea why.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #35 on: 07 April 2014, 22:08:20 »
With hidden unit rules or double-blind (even better), having a Hanse act as a giant Hetzer would be fun too. Some poor Enforcer Dragon walking down a street just suddenly bursts into flames and has no idea why.
Get it right. ;)
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #36 on: 07 April 2014, 22:22:04 »
Get it right. ;)

Or a Panther... (Substitute with all Kurita designs)

Playing the Hanse with hidden units or strong ECM cover would make it really deadly with the speed it could strike fade away and come in again somewhere else a bit like the SM1 but in something that can handle the return fire

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #37 on: 07 April 2014, 22:48:22 »
Get it right. ;)

Sorry, my old group had an Enforcer that seemed to always find the hidden traps- mines, hidden infantry, etc., so that's always my first thought when it comes to a victim of a hidden unit attack.  ^-^
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #38 on: 07 April 2014, 22:55:25 »
Sorry, my old group had an Enforcer that seemed to always find the hidden traps- mines, hidden infantry, etc., so that's always my first thought when it comes to a victim of a hidden unit attack.  ^-^

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #39 on: 07 April 2014, 23:43:05 »
I'm sort of surprised no one's mentioned it yet, which is making me think I missed something in the rules (even though I know it doesn't fit the artwork).

But what about putting the Plasma rifles in the sponsons?

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #40 on: 08 April 2014, 00:03:15 »
I'm sort of surprised no one's mentioned it yet, which is making me think I missed something in the rules (even though I know it doesn't fit the artwork).

But what about putting the Plasma rifles in the sponsons?

You'd have to give something up to do so.. not that much, really.. probably two or three of the machine guns depending on how the sponsons are factored (I forget if they're counted separately or together, which would have an impact on the whole ton fraction thing).

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #41 on: 08 April 2014, 00:14:52 »
I'd actually go flamers in the sponsons at the very least you could set fires to cover your retreat/your advance

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #42 on: 08 April 2014, 00:34:58 »
I didn't design the Hanse...

I did raise an unholy ruckus at the miss use of an awesome tank name. I think this vehicle is a good tank destroyer. I think it was designed very well within the Dark Age constraints we had.

I just wept at the use of Hanse MBT for the name. Alas it was something we inherited and there was nothing to be done. I think Caleb had a secret loathing for his great grandfather.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #43 on: 08 April 2014, 00:35:39 »
Another tactic for this would be a V-formation,

Put the Hanse at the base, with the wings out and in front, herding things into the middle......honestly, this is to mechs, what the StuG was to infantry.... it's support. It puts out enough anti-vehicle damage to count as a "tank destroyer" versus other vehicles, and can burn down battle armor, or infantry in swathes..... in cover. That alone emulates the dual purpose guns on the StuG.

Use it like one, and stay aggressive... it works fine.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #44 on: 08 April 2014, 00:44:40 »
I didn't design the Hanse...

I did raise an unholy ruckus at the miss use of an awesome tank name. I think this vehicle is a good tank destroyer. I think it was designed very well within the Dark Age constraints we had.

I just wept at the use of Hanse MBT for the name. Alas it was something we inherited and there was nothing to be done. I think Caleb had a secret loathing for his great grandfather.
Very true, Hanse should have been the name of a Battlemaster equivalent 'Mech or a class of warships, not a tank. The man is too great to have his name attached to a tank. Especially considering he wasn't a tank commander.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #45 on: 08 April 2014, 00:52:42 »
Heck, if it had been the Turtle Tank of the FedSuns, I'd have been fine. Tanks can be grand machines. This vehicle isn't a tank, it's mobile gun platform.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #46 on: 08 April 2014, 00:53:32 »
I didn't design the Hanse...

I did raise an unholy ruckus at the miss use of an awesome tank name. I think this vehicle is a good tank destroyer. I think it was designed very well within the Dark Age constraints we had.

I just wept at the use of Hanse MBT for the name. Alas it was something we inherited and there was nothing to be done. I think Caleb had a secret loathing for his great grandfather.

Makes me grateful Stone didn't allow his name to be used on the Winston.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #47 on: 08 April 2014, 01:09:25 »
Makes me grateful Stone didn't allow his name to be used on the Winston.

Now that one is my fault, fluff and stats. Had fun with that fluff.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #48 on: 08 April 2014, 01:40:12 »
I didn't design the Hanse...

I did raise an unholy ruckus at the miss use of an awesome tank name. I think this vehicle is a good tank destroyer. I think it was designed very well within the Dark Age constraints we had.

I just wept at the use of Hanse MBT for the name. Alas it was something we inherited and there was nothing to be done. I think Caleb had a secret loathing for his great grandfather.

Err....the Hanse was introed in 3108 (or so the MUL informs me). This puppy was one of Harrison's. 

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #49 on: 08 April 2014, 01:50:36 »
Everyone is making to big of a deal out of the lack of a turret. Just team it up with a couple of tanks with same speed or something bigger with range to cover the Hanse's flanks, like the Morgan.   

While its far from perfect for a 'MBT,' the Hanse still has enough firepower and armor to make it a bad day for the other guy.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #50 on: 08 April 2014, 01:51:36 »
Err....the Hanse was introed in 3108 (or so the MUL informs me). This puppy was one of Harrison's.

Didn't anyone ever tell you it's not nice to point out when a Developer is wrong? :)

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He was a tanker, it's his fault, somehow.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #51 on: 08 April 2014, 02:07:18 »
It can't possibly be Harrison's fault. Harrison was written as having a full beard, and bearded men can do no wrong in life. Caleb, I'm sure, shaved every morning. Charlatan.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #52 on: 08 April 2014, 02:10:51 »
Didn't anyone ever tell you it's not nice to point out when a Developer is wrong? :)

I still blame Caleb. I wrote him as a lunatic, I maintain my position.

He was a tanker, it's his fault, somehow.

Good enough for me ;D

What was Caleb choice of tank anyhow, can't remember?

Edit: he commanded a Marksman, anything else? 
« Last Edit: 08 April 2014, 02:14:16 by SteelRaven »
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #53 on: 08 April 2014, 03:33:38 »
Good enough for me ;D

What was Caleb choice of tank anyhow, can't remember?

Edit: he commanded a Marksman, anything else?

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #54 on: 08 April 2014, 11:48:53 »
Command is such a generous term...
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #55 on: 08 April 2014, 12:25:14 »
Was Mason the true TC? :D
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #56 on: 08 April 2014, 23:02:11 »
Command is such a generous term...
I am struggling to see the incompetence.

Who looks good fighting a war on two fronts, then being sold out by an ally-come-neutral?

I still think Caleb should have been allowed to save the FS. If only to see the fans sweep the crazy under the carpet in the name of success.

And to keep it on topic, he should have saved the FS while driving a Hanse MBT.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #57 on: 08 April 2014, 23:57:19 »
That would have been more interesting from a story perspective. I think they went with the easier option of what to do with Caleb, and I have a Magistracy fan friend who is very glad to see him gone. So I can say that even people whom it doesn't effect all that greatly are happy with what was done.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #58 on: 09 April 2014, 01:24:35 »
I will be the dissenter, has to be one in every crowd right?

To me the Hanse piles on several big negatives into a single design.  I love the Plasma Rifle as a weapon for armor as it gets the big 10 point hit for lighter than a UAC/5 (technically 2 5s), safer than a UAC (no jam or ammo boom) and has many non-mech target bonuses.  I wanted to see a Saladin refit with it or perhaps on a Regulator- alas it was left to my merc's refits to get that sort of chassis.  See a trend?  I think the Plasma Rifle has to go on faster units which have a better chance of dictating range because 15 hexes is IMO a bit short for a main gun.  You see the contemporary heavy tanks mounting weapons like the LB-10X, Gauss Rifle, Light Gauss Rifle, PPC of some flavor or ERLL as main guns.  Which means I think it will be taking more fire, possibly causing it to slow more than the burst can overcome to get into ideal range.

Slower armor tends to get flanked IMO, especially since hitting it in the sides slows or stops it.  The Hanse does have a burst option but it move the standard heavy tank speed.  While I do like, want more of, and heavily use the Tank Destroyers I think they are better as smaller vehicles (under 50t) . . . the Predator is a good example IMO.  A bit faster than possibly needed but that speed allows for the all important facing changes.  With the burst the Hanse (non)MBT hits 8 hexes, which long 5/8 vs 6/9 mech discussions debate the extra hex for movement facing purposes.

For the late 50's a new frontline designed tank could be expected to mount FF armor.  By 3100, for a tank that NEEDS to be in range of the enemy to get its own hits in, lacks a turret and is not really to subtle a hammer . . . not using HFF to get the most armor points for the mass is a bad IC design choice.  I have not examined the sheet (as I do not have it) to see if it was a crit forced choice but . . . I would gladly exchange a LMG or two for the crits to make it HFF.

So IMO the SP Gun is too slow for its main armament and if it stays at that speed lacks the turret to protect itself or exploit its armament.  While the armor is not spread thinner by the turret as someone pointed out, lacking HFF IMO it is under-armored for it's designed purpose.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #59 on: 09 April 2014, 02:23:12 »
not using HFF to get the most armor points for the mass is a bad IC design choice.  I have not examined the sheet (as I do not have it) to see if it was a crit forced choice but . . . I would gladly exchange a LMG or two for the crits to make it HFF.

So IMO the SP Gun is too slow for its main armament and if it stays at that speed lacks the turret to protect itself or exploit its armament.  While the armor is not spread thinner by the turret as someone pointed out, lacking HFF IMO it is under-armored for it's designed purpose.

So, by your reasoning, every single combat vehicle that doesn't mount HFF but has the space for it is a bad design and/or under-armored?  Jeez, that's a boring standard.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #60 on: 09 April 2014, 03:39:56 »
No, I said frontline . . . HFF has been out . . . what 30 or more years by the time this was designed?  This is supposed to slug it out, HAS to slug it out to get into its own weapon range, as such it needs every bit of protection it can get.  I do not know the specifics of hardened but perhaps that would be a better choice than HFF for the Hanse.

You will also notice the last bit was about the sum of the shortcomings- short ranged main gun, slow for the main gun, no turret with low speed causing facing issues, and frontline unit designed for battle line not using best armor all add up to making the Hanse a bad choice.

As an aside, we could point to the design IMO it was patterned after which is the Clan's Athena . . . which does but perhaps should not have a turret since the main guns are not located in the turret.  But it also has a TC and seven hexes more of range for the pair of BFGs.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #61 on: 09 April 2014, 05:35:13 »
I like the Hanse personally, sure its got its drawbacks but its basically an assault gun.  Yet the fluff for it makes me think "This tank was designed by someone who ragequit or was fired so they made the fluff into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zYlOU7Fpk "
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #62 on: 09 April 2014, 06:38:00 »
Colt Ward, I suspect the designer didn't want to make an optimised design. Rather something flawed in it's own ways that was still useful if used correctly, but by no means such a stellar machine that it would have to be part of any army, for it would be lacking without one. It is very easy to design something that is optimised to the last detail to squeeze every last bit of potential from it. It is a lot harder to go "No. This is good enough. Let the players have fun with it's flaws." Because remember, this is a game.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #63 on: 09 April 2014, 13:26:32 »
The CGL designer didn't have a choice. The WizKids Mini drove the stats and that mini was pretty clear on not having a turret.

Start throwing in tonnages available and you get the Hanse we have now. Any suggestions on making the original design better have to keep in mind it must match the mini and the tonnage.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #64 on: 09 April 2014, 13:31:30 »
The CGL designer didn't have a choice. The WizKids Mini drove the stats and that mini was pretty clear on not having a turret.

Start throwing in tonnages available and you get the Hanse we have now. Any suggestions on making the original design better have to keep in mind it must match the mini and the tonnage.

It's easy to design stuff. It gets hard when you start dealing with in universe rules, art, and other factors that pop up in the TRO design process.

To be honest, I always assumed (from the mini) a pair of autocannons and a PPC for the main weapons, so in that regard you guys actually came up with something pretty impressive here.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #65 on: 09 April 2014, 13:33:51 »
To be honest, I always assumed (from the mini) a pair of autocannons and a PPC for the main weapons, so in that regard you guys actually came up with something pretty impressive here.

Yeah, I forget who designed this one (Jymset would know). I'm impressed with what he did as well.

The original probably was ACs and PPCs, during the WizKids era we hadn't standardized a lot of the cool newer tech that is standard in Total Warfare.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #66 on: 09 April 2014, 13:45:25 »
I like it.  Its interesting, which is saying something for the FedSuns.  That it is also effective is also nice.  But interesting and FedSuns heavy armor haven't gone together for... wait, did it ever?
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #67 on: 09 April 2014, 13:47:38 »
I like it.  Its interesting, which is saying something for the FedSuns.  That it is also effective is also nice.  But interesting and FedSuns heavy armor haven't gone together for... wait, did it ever?

I've been forced to take cover from enough Challenger MBTs over the years to say that they certainly have gone together, at least once.  ;D
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #68 on: 09 April 2014, 13:49:57 »
That isn't interesting, that's effective.  I'd never knock the effectiveness of AFFS heavy armor.  But, that to me seems like the general trend: effective and boring or not very effective and boring.  The Hanse is a different beast.  And yes, it is a beast, just a tricky one to use.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #69 on: 09 April 2014, 15:12:29 »
The Hanse. The MBT I love the most. The MBT I hate the most.

It's looks so badass! A good contender for the "prettiest" tank.
But It's a turretless MBT, which to me as a former tanker, is heresy.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #70 on: 09 April 2014, 15:14:46 »
You know, that's a good point.  If the MBT was left out would it help deflect some of the criticism?  Hanse Heavy Tank?
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #71 on: 09 April 2014, 15:17:33 »
When I look at this tank, the image of it bursting from cover at high speed with the phrase "Bout that time them Duke Boys realized they was in a heap o' trouble" comes to mind.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #72 on: 09 April 2014, 15:22:48 »
If I saw it cresting a hill i'd think I was the one in a heap o'trouble.  2 plasma rifles?  Yikes.  For the combined arms centric operations of the 32nd century that kind of firepower is worth the trade in tonnage for single heat sinks.  Plasma rifles are not the most widely deployed weapon and it is good to see a platform using 2.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #73 on: 09 April 2014, 15:38:23 »
Of course a turret would have made it a lot better, but the thing that really irks me is the choice of sponson weapons - it's Davion, Magshots, man, Magshots! :D

It really needs an official variant with HFFA (less half a ton) that replaces the LMGs with 4 Magshots and a ton of ammo!

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #74 on: 09 April 2014, 15:47:43 »
That isn't interesting, that's effective.  I'd never knock the effectiveness of AFFS heavy armor.  But, that to me seems like the general trend: effective and boring or not very effective and boring.  The Hanse is a different beast.  And yes, it is a beast, just a tricky one to use.

Interesting word there. "Heavy" armour. There was a certain amount of Alacorns, Ajaxes, Challengers, Oh My! earlier in the thread. Ignoring the comparisons of 75 ton tanks to genuine assaults, well, those are genuine assault tanks. Those rare units brought out when something really has to die. A quick glance at the Davion heavy tanks in the 3145 RATs suggests a far more mediocre line up making the Hanse look much better.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #75 on: 09 April 2014, 15:51:24 »
You know, that's a good point.  If the MBT was left out would it help deflect some of the criticism?  Hanse Heavy Tank?

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #76 on: 09 April 2014, 16:13:25 »
I tried, but the WizKid force was too strong with the name.

Yeah, I have a JF Hanse here on my coffee table (it was the figure that caused me to start thinking about doing this article actually), and it's listed as a 'Hanse MBT' on the base. Which means the foul-up is on WK, not Catalyst.

But yeah, a Hanse Tank Destroyer would have helped. ;)

(I did think about going into the differences between an MBT and a tank destroyer in the article, but... well, it was a long enough VotW article anyway for a unit with no variants, let's not overload it!)
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #77 on: 09 April 2014, 16:16:45 »
You know, that's a good point.  If the MBT was left out would it help deflect some of the criticism?  Hanse Heavy Tank?

The stickler in me would prefer the much more accurate "tank destroyer".

Interesting word there. "Heavy" armour. There was a certain amount of Alacorns, Ajaxes, Challengers, Oh My! earlier in the thread. Ignoring the comparisons of 75 ton tanks to genuine assaults, well, those are genuine assault tanks. Those rare units brought out when something really has to die. A quick glance at the Davion heavy tanks in the 3145 RATs suggests a far more mediocre line up making the Hanse look much better.

Only because the RATs didn't let the Destrier come out and play. I guess it would be unfair toward the other factions tanks...
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #78 on: 09 April 2014, 16:37:06 »
Well if the dial says 'MBT' instead of 'Main Battle Tank', you could have had fun with the acronym. Admittedly, I dunno what you would do with a Monstrous Breakfast Taco, but I would leave such issues up to the writers.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #79 on: 09 April 2014, 17:27:43 »
Well if the dial says 'MBT' instead of 'Main Battle Tank', you could have had fun with the acronym. Admittedly, I dunno what you would do with a Monstrous Breakfast Taco, but I would leave such issues up to the writers.

They meant it to be:
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #80 on: 09 April 2014, 17:51:17 »
Maybe Buy a Turret
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #81 on: 09 April 2014, 19:07:54 »
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #82 on: 09 April 2014, 19:23:22 »
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #83 on: 09 April 2014, 19:45:42 »

It's looks so badass! A good contender for the "prettiest" tank.

That I can't disagree with when they came up with the Hanse someone decided it was time a tank got to look good

Funny thing about the MBT bit I ignore the name it looks like a Tank Destroyer it plays like a Tank Destroyer...
« Last Edit: 09 April 2014, 19:47:40 by Dragon Cat »

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #84 on: 09 April 2014, 20:44:06 »
I'm imagining a Capellan vehicle soon to be called the ""Hanse Tank" destroyer" ...
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #85 on: 09 April 2014, 22:21:58 »
I'm imagining a Capellan vehicle soon to be called the ""Hanse Tank" destroyer" ...

They misspelled it "Regulator II". I'm sure they feel just awful about the error.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #86 on: 09 April 2014, 22:22:11 »
I'm going to admit that I quite like the Hanse. It's a flawed design, yes, but not as bad as the TRO makes it out to be. Certainly it's got its uses, and as a Tank hunter/ambusher/bum steerer/peon annihilation unit, it has a lot of plusses. The two plamas are potentially devestating to armour or BA, and hitting a 'Mech for +2d6 heat is allways going o be a lot of fun.

It does take some skill to use; move them in pairs or with something protecting the sides has worked well for me so far. I've even used one as a trap with opponents trying to get arounbd it only to stumble into BA.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #87 on: 09 April 2014, 23:01:30 »
the key to the Hanse is to use Good ol' proper Orky Know-wotz.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #88 on: 10 April 2014, 20:22:33 »
At least this thing has a bit of speed to help with the "no turret" flaw. Also, I echo others at weeping at seeing the Hanse name used on such a vehicle. Still, with the right team of units, I could see a use for this design just not a varied one...

Still, I think this design fits the Davion vehicle mindset perfectly. Forget a smaller Tank Destroyer like others are using, lets make it a heavy design. Davion's love their heavy vehicles and since they needed a Tank Destroyer...go big or go home, right?
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #89 on: 10 April 2014, 22:54:19 »
You know, that's a good point.  If the MBT was left out would it help deflect some of the criticism?  Hanse Heavy Tank?

Would the Hanse be better described as a tank destroyer, rather than a MBT?

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #90 on: 10 April 2014, 23:04:43 »
I literally just thought of this.

The Hanse as we've all pretty much agreed on works better with a team around it each with their own skill set.

To me that screams Classic AFFS the work together big move RCT philosiphy of Melissa Davion and executed perfectly by Hanse Davion in the Fourth.

The AFFS maybe need the idea behind the Hanse more than they need the tank but the idea fits

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #91 on: 10 April 2014, 23:10:17 »
Yes, and unlike some of the other 'Tank Destroyers' which would better be described as 'Mech Destroyers' the Hanse's Plasma Rifles are better against armor than mechs.

Scotty, I think you mistake my criticisms . . . most of which were made from a in universe design point.  I look forward in using it as part of the beating handed out to Capellan conventional forces when Julian kicks back off on the offensive.  I wish we had a few variants as these could easily be the new 3145 fire support design.

 . . . or replace the Plasma Rifles with RAC/5s . . . hmmm.
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #92 on: 11 April 2014, 19:35:34 »
Nah, keep the PR's and pop in a LRM rack for the LAC - minefields and indirect fire are more useful than the 5 point hit from the LAC.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #93 on: 11 April 2014, 20:00:53 »
Dropping the Plasma Rifles gives a lot more tonnage letting you do something besides the LAC . . .
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #94 on: 11 April 2014, 21:08:34 »
Sadly not enough available tonnage for a Heavy Gauss Rifle, the one weapon that you can't put in a turret so would have been well suited for the Hanse MBT. You got to strip out the LAC as well and even then you aren't going to get many shots.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #95 on: 11 April 2014, 22:28:06 »
Dropping the Plasma Rifles gives a lot more tonnage letting you do something besides the LAC . . .

True enough, but it kind of loses its flavor if you get rid of them, too.  :-[
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Savage Coyote

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #96 on: 11 April 2014, 23:20:21 »
JHB can meld the topics in on the Po II vs Hanse, but my thoughts, just on the outside having not tested the Gauss variants myself either lol

I think the Gauss refit will struggle a bit as the Hanse can take several rifle rounds, enough that it can get it's plasma cannon's into range and do their thing.  The Po II isn't as fast over all as a bursting Hanse and so I think the upper hand has to go to the Hanse.

Against the Stealth variant, I think it balances out a little as the Po II gets an extra turn or two of higher modifiers to keep the cannons from being a true threat.  It can still get overwhelmed in a one-on-one engagement.  I feel it can hang out in terrain for more numbers and keep the Hanse from hitting as reliably, but if and when the Hanse closes it is in trouble.

And I actually like the Po II standard in terrain other than the standard battle tech maps of open long range engagements.  While it's doesn't have as much armor as later designs, it has a BFG and knows how to use it.  Well, when/if it gets in range :D

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #97 on: 12 April 2014, 00:51:27 »
Should the Po II have gotten a turbocharger rather than a TC IIRC my variants?
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #98 on: 12 April 2014, 07:06:29 »
Nope, no TC or turbocharger or any other speed booster unfortunately.  Both variants roll with a Gauss and some short range stuff (SRM's and MG's.)  Non-Stealth has two I-OS SSRM-2's in the turrnet while the Stealth has an Angel ECM instead.  Of course the next sheet has the RAC-5 Kinnol which has more armor and speed  :D

oldfart3025

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #99 on: 15 April 2014, 01:18:16 »


The Hanse is a cool vehicle, and very useful. But I dispute the "MBT" designation.


The Hanse is more of a MBT killer than an actual main battle tank.


This unit is an excellent ambush vehicle, especially hidden in an area blanketed by friendly ECM. Pretty much SOP with tank destroyers and mech hunters on my end. Break the platoon up into two "loose duce platoons", and lay 'em low in good bushwhacking positions on a given map. Wait for a sucker to stumble his/her playing piece into the kill zone, spring 'em, and BAM! Shiny new kill marker on the platoon's mounts.

The positioning and idea behind the machine guns on the Hanse makes sense. You never know if light motorized infantry (scouts on dirt bikes) or light BA is going to stumble on your hidden vehicles. The machine guns will help keep them honest, for the most part. Just pray they don't have TAG or man portable LRMs.

The LAC/5 is a nice "rounding out" of the tank's armament. The two tons in the magazine allows for the flexibility of specialized munitions, without seriously gimping the gun's round count. I personally prefer precision or AP rounds myself. But it depends on the scenario and venue.

Overall, the Hanse gets good marks on my AFV report card.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #100 on: 15 April 2014, 10:19:53 »
Y'know, a well-run FedSuns armored force must be a true beauty to behold. Use Ziblers as scouts and bushwhackers to flush out enemy units, Krugers for skirmishing duties and guarding flanks(or harassing enemy flanks), Hanses as the main punch of the force...all to push or pull the bulk of the enemy force into that ravine where the Destriers are waiting. }:)

Clearly, the AFFS of 3145 needs more armor commanders like you... ;)

cheers,

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #101 on: 15 April 2014, 10:29:34 »
I'm a Leaguer born and bred, but I gotta say that 3145 has made me SERIOUSLY want to spend some time riding with the Fox...and fighting like the Desert Fox. }:)
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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #102 on: 15 April 2014, 11:09:47 »
Now I don't know about tank classifications, but I do kinda like this thing. Load up one ton of precision and one ton of APs for the popgun and you'd be in fairly decent shape. With 2 ammo bins, unless you're playing an extended campaign, this thing's begging for specialist ammo. I'd maybe pair these with something like Streak Drillsons to flank your targets and maybe immobilize them by peppering them with SRMs to the sides.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #103 on: 05 May 2014, 00:54:21 »
This tank isn't meant to be used by militia, who normally have to defend stuff, it's designed to be used on the offense. First there's the supercharger, that should be a hint, then there's the weapon placement, militia's normally have to defend stuff, which means prepared positions, something the Hanse doesn't far too well in. Hull down tanks can't fire forward weapons.

Now I can understand putting MGs in sponsons, it's pretty useful, but why do you need more then one per side? And removing two of the MGs would allow you to put the PRs in the sponsons with the extra weight it free's up

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #104 on: 05 May 2014, 02:32:38 »
Now I can understand putting MGs in sponsons, it's pretty useful, but why do you need more then one per side? And removing two of the MGs would allow you to put the PRs in the sponsons with the extra weight it free's up

Putting your main guns into sponsons means effectively losing half the all-important forward firing arc. Even sponson-mounted, a weapon on the right side of your vehicle can't engage a target that's even a tiny bit to the left of "dead ahead" -- a forward-mounted one can.

So if I did put one PR each into one of the tank's sponsons? Great, I'd now be able to bring one to bear against any target I had LOS to -- but only combine both against something in the single line of hexes straight ahead or astern anymore. I've tried that experiment once (picture, if you will, a tank with sponson-mounted AC/20s...) and concluded that while sponson turrets make side-mounted weapons decidedly more useful than they'd be otherwise, they're nonetheless mainly for secondary and defensive stuff while the "real" guns logically still go into the forward arc or main turret as usual.

And obviously I need more than one MG per side because each can still only fire once per turn. Machine guns are great against conventional infantry they can catch, but they still fall somewhat short of "anything PBI that moves into range instantly dies, muahahaha" levels -- especially the light models as mounted on the Hanse.

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Re: VotW: Hanse MBT
« Reply #105 on: 01 October 2017, 04:28:44 »
You know while this is an OK anti-tank unit I see the beginnings of a truly terrifying anti-'Mech one, simply pull the LAC-5 for a Centurion Weapon System (You'l have to find two more tons somewhere else, likely the MG's) and your done. Now while most people will prefer the TSEMP because of the CWS' range issue unlike the TSEMP the CWS can be fired every turn and suffer no ill-effects, and as the CWS forces shutdown rolls, it being mounted with a pair of heat-causing weapons is just gravy, put one on the field and 'Mechs won't dare go anywhere near their max heat for doing so is a death sentence. Oh and that range issue? Not a problem with IndustrialMechs, which the early Dark Age is infamous for.

 

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