Author Topic: MotW: Kingfisher  (Read 63889 times)

SteelRaven

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #90 on: 27 April 2017, 16:50:46 »
You do realize the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf don't look anything like wolves, right? They named the Kingfisher after a bird of prey because it's a predator. 

And before we put too much meaning behind the name of the mech being a direct hint to clan, the Wolves created the Sun Cobra and Ghost Bear Smoke Jaguar created the Mad Dog.

« Last Edit: 27 April 2017, 17:26:01 by SteelRaven »
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #91 on: 27 April 2017, 17:05:07 »
You do realize the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf don't look anything like wolves, right? They named the Kingfisher after a bird of prey because it's a predator. 

And before we put too much meaning behind the name of the mech being a direct hint to clan, the Wolves created the Sun Cobra and Ghost Bear created the Mad Dog.

The Timber Wolf actually has a wolf-like profile from front, surprisingly so considering it is an OmniMech, not a totem 'Mech. Legs are like a wolf's front legs, the cockpit location is its nose, the missile launchers are ear-like.

Also, the Mad Dog is a Smoke Jaguar creation, borrowing the leg assembly of the Timber Wolf and being named Mad Dog as an insult toward the Wolves. And its vulture-like profile might be another layer of insult, comparing Wolves to scavengers...

SteelRaven

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #92 on: 27 April 2017, 17:41:00 »
The Timber Wolf actually has a wolf-like profile from front, surprisingly so considering it is an OmniMech, not a totem 'Mech. Legs are like a wolf's front legs, the cockpit location is its nose, the missile launchers are ear-like.
Guess it's like a Rorschach test because I don't see it. Especially considering the T-Wolf was noted to be in part inspired in part by the B-29 Bomber. 

Also, the Mad Dog is a Smoke Jaguar creation, borrowing the leg assembly of the Timber Wolf and being named Mad Dog as an insult toward the Wolves. And its vulture-like profile might be another layer of insult, comparing Wolves to scavengers...

Thanks for the correction. I know the name Mad Dog was meant as a insult to the T-Wolf but considering the utilitarian nature of the 3050 Omnis, think only the IS made the connection with the Vulture like profile when they named it.

Like wise, some people see something bird like about the Night Gyr. I don't, though a ton of people see a Space Marine on the MWO forum (*groan*)

Point being the name rarely has anything to do with the appearance unless the artist decides to do something special. On top of that, the Clans love naming their mechs after animals (Stone Rhino, Glass Spider, Vapor Eagle) mythological is more of a IS trait that IS Clans adopted in part to mock IS forces (Jupiter to one up the Zeus, Hel because the Loki designation) 
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #93 on: 27 April 2017, 17:55:39 »
The Night Gyr has vaguely bird-like lines on it. That one protrusion under the cockpit looks a bit like a beak, and the shoulders bring mind a bird slightly spreading its wings. The beak is more visible in painted minis.
Overall it does manage to look more like a space marine of some kind though. Especially so with Alex Igleas' art, though i'd compare it to original StarCraft marine more than any other space marine.

I don't care for the Night Gyr for variety of reasons but ultimately it looks like something. The Kingfisher is one damn blocky blob.


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #94 on: 27 April 2017, 18:44:41 »
The Timber Wolf actually has a wolf-like profile from front, surprisingly so considering it is an OmniMech, not a totem 'Mech. Legs are like a wolf's front legs, the cockpit location is its nose, the missile launchers are ear-like.

Man, you have been looking at some messed up wolves.
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #95 on: 27 April 2017, 18:56:41 »
A wolf with its head held low. And someone used a hammer on the ears for whatever reason. A bit stubby nose too... But overall, surprisingly wolf-like for a non-totem 'Mech. In its Prime config. And only from from directly front, the illusion vanishes quickly in other profiles.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #96 on: 27 April 2017, 19:58:38 »
I don't know.  I think it looks more like the Mickey Mouse logo.
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SteelRaven

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #97 on: 27 April 2017, 21:09:53 »
This is becoming a weird combination of eye of the beholder and mech aesthetics. Ether way, we should probably move on to something more constructive. 
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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #98 on: 28 April 2017, 09:44:39 »
I've always kind of wondered if a couple of Clan names got mixed up from that era. The Cauldron-Born was named for the "unstoppable zombies of Irish myth", but it's not an overly durable Mech- the Kingfisher certainly is, but its name seems more akin to an avian-styled design like the Cauldron-Born is.

Probably not really the case, since they debuted in different books, but it always struck me that the Kingfisher's name didn't really fit it well.

Some of the 'Mech image choices in that time frame are questionable as well. The art for the Stooping Hawk and Blood Asp appeared a TRO too late. They would have been much more appropriate for the Black Lanner and Turkina respectively.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #99 on: 01 May 2017, 20:04:16 »
Is the king fisher still being produced post wars of reaving?

Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #100 on: 01 May 2017, 20:16:30 »
Is the king fisher still being produced post wars of reaving?
It is certainly available to everyone, even Spheroids (ignoring the Homeworlds Clans for we have no data about them). But is it being made anymore? Considering how old the 'Mech is, i would imagine its production has ended long ago. But it is tough so it survives in service.

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #101 on: 01 May 2017, 20:47:19 »
Kingfisher A: LB-X AC/10 (20), ER PPC, medium pulse laser, ER medium laser, ER small laser, SRM 6 (15). Ah yeah. I got nothing. I'm sorry, this is one of maybe two configurations I really don't like and I've never used it (well, maybe once?) in all my years of BT. The LB-X/PPC combo is a truly great one...on a mobile ’Mech. Thor, Nobori-nin, heck even Hercules. They use the combo to have a single impressive punch, and a shotgun to follow up on it. With it, they can bully most equally mobile units just fine. But on this? It just feels so anemic and inefficient on this assault. And I'm really not impressed with the hodge podge of back up weapons, either. The Prime was versatile, this just feels messy. Sure, as mentioned in the chassis summary above, it is one of the two “undying ER PPC” configurations, but that's definitely not enough of a saving grace here.
Please, if any inclined reader would help me out finding a role for this one? But please, a better one than “hunting vehicles”—that'd just be undignified.

I have used the 'Fisher A in a scout form, a pure terror without seeming so. Also I found out that it can be used as an effective Anti-Infantry platform, either against or in support of. Also makes a great AAA unit as well.

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wantec

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #102 on: 01 May 2017, 22:21:31 »
It is certainly available to everyone, even Spheroids (ignoring the Homeworlds Clans for we have no data about them). But is it being made anymore? Considering how old the 'Mech is, i would imagine its production has ended long ago. But it is tough so it survives in service.
What he said. Going forward into the Dark Age era tjere are Kingfishers available to the Bears and I think the Republic too.

As for Clan space, all signs point to no status change. I'll have to check my notes tomorrow to see if there was specific factory data in WoR.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #103 on: 01 May 2017, 22:25:49 »
It is not listed in the "Discarded Tools of War" section of WoRS.  Though I guess that could just mean it was already out of production pre-Reaving.
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wantec

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #104 on: 02 May 2017, 06:30:16 »
Found it. In the WoR Supplemental, pg 16, bottom of the left column, the Stone Lions sought out and won factories for the Kignfisher. It should be considered the core the Lions' assault OmniMechs going forward. At least that's what I was thinking win I did the 3085 RATs for WoR Supplemental. That said, the Lions took 'Mechs whenever and wherever they could, so initially they'd have a mix of most anything, even things on the Discarded Tools of War list.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #105 on: 02 May 2017, 08:07:44 »
The other thing to remember is that as the Clans rebuild from the WoR (and the Jihad, for those who got double-punched), a big, unkillable monster that uses a cheap-as-hell SFE would be just the thing for filling out a wounded touman. If I had to pick an Omni to put into production in, say, 3085, 3090, and get back up to strength in a hurry before the neighbors find a reason to test me, I'd leap at the Kingfisher ahead of something like the Warhawk.
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wantec

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #106 on: 02 May 2017, 08:49:19 »
The other thing to remember is that as the Clans rebuild from the WoR (and the Jihad, for those who got double-punched), a big, unkillable monster that uses a cheap-as-hell SFE would be just the thing for filling out a wounded touman. If I had to pick an Omni to put into production in, say, 3085, 3090, and get back up to strength in a hurry before the neighbors find a reason to test me, I'd leap at the Kingfisher ahead of something like the Warhawk.
Not only short on production, they're short on everything. Remember folks, the Horses planned their trip to the IS, they took everything of value that they could without tipping off the other Clans. Especially after the Trial of Reaving against the one Sibko facility, the Horses would have likely moved the remaining ones out to the IS, leaving the Lions with few replacements. In addition to keeping their machines survivable, they have to keep their warriors alive until they can get things cranking.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I probably should do an article on the 'Mechs of the Stone Lions, since there's not a lot of info out there and I did a lot of the planning & research into the tactics & strategies that got published in the WoR Supplemental.
« Last Edit: 02 May 2017, 08:51:01 by wantec »
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Empyrus

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #107 on: 02 May 2017, 08:59:38 »
A Stone Lion article? That sounds interesting.

Forgot that they use and manufacture Kingfishers... and speaking of WoR Supplemental, it kinda painted a picture of the Stone Lions as a hybrid of Hell's Horses and Blood Spirits. In military doctrine that is, not attitude. Rugged, low cost machines, and combined arms warfare...

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #108 on: 03 May 2017, 00:11:25 »
Not only short on production, they're short on everything. Remember folks, the Horses planned their trip to the IS, they took everything of value that they could without tipping off the other Clans. Especially after the Trial of Reaving against the one Sibko facility, the Horses would have likely moved the remaining ones out to the IS, leaving the Lions with few replacements. In addition to keeping their machines survivable, they have to keep their warriors alive until they can get things cranking.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I probably should do an article on the 'Mechs of the Stone Lions, since there's not a lot of info out there and I did a lot of the planning & research into the tactics & strategies that got published in the WoR Supplemental.

Given that there was stuff to fight over when the Bears pulled out, I suspect the effectiveness of these operations operates on narativium.

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #109 on: 03 May 2017, 01:29:25 »
Nah, wait there.
When you're saying "cheap", what is? In every other thread we get the understandable comments saying that "cost" is outdated and not much of an argument anymore, and I'd reckon that goes double so for clan space. XL-Engines might cost more precious resources, but economically speaking, as soon as those are available, the engine shouldn't actually cost more to produce for the clans that probably produced a lot more of those than actual "standard" engines.
Besides, 'survivability of mech' doesn't do 'survivability of pilot' any favours: If the mech shuts down to a side torso loss and an engine crit, in clan space it it is probably less likely to take a gauss slug to the face after the fact.
Which is not to say the kingfisher isn't a great machine to hold a line, but when it comes to resource efficiency, as a "main" assault mech I could see an argument be made to focus more on doing damage than surviving it.
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wantec

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #110 on: 03 May 2017, 06:39:33 »
Nah, wait there.
When you're saying "cheap", what is? In every other thread we get the understandable comments saying that "cost" is outdated and not much of an argument anymore, and I'd reckon that goes double so for clan space. XL-Engines might cost more precious resources, but economically speaking, as soon as those are available, the engine shouldn't actually cost more to produce for the clans that probably produced a lot more of those than actual "standard" engines.
Besides, 'survivability of mech' doesn't do 'survivability of pilot' any favours: If the mech shuts down to a side torso loss and an engine crit, in clan space it it is probably less likely to take a gauss slug to the face after the fact.
Which is not to say the kingfisher isn't a great machine to hold a line, but when it comes to resource efficiency, as a "main" assault mech I could see an argument be made to focus more on doing damage than surviving it.
By cheap I mean what's not gonna cost them a bunch of resources to build, maintain, repair, and replace. I'll go into it more in the article I'm working on right now.

Given that there was stuff to fight over when the Bears pulled out, I suspect the effectiveness of these operations operates on narativium.
I'm not certain I get what you're saying. Do you mean that when the Bears left Clan space they still left a lot of infrastructure behind for the other Clans to fight over?

If so, there's a few things different about this situation. First, when the Bears left for the IS, they didn't leave behind a Galaxy of troops that basically had to rebuild itself as a new Clan using only what was left behind. I'm not saying the Horses didn't leave anything useful or valuable behind, but that in terms of rebuilding and starting a new Clan, they didn't have everything they needed set up and running full speed. Second, there's also the destruction of the Wars of Reaving going on, leaving fewer Clans to acquire those missing parts from and as a result those remaining Clans guard them more jealously.
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truetanker

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #111 on: 03 May 2017, 18:21:10 »
I'd like to inject this thought for you to ponder...

CHH left for the IS during the WoR correct? And in doing so left a large amount of material with rear action guards deployed to defend it. When they set up their initial IS beachhead, they requested, as clan custom, SafeCon for those said materials. Some, if not most, arrived months later... losing a few tonnage each time a Trial of Possession was called, which was increasingly common. Then they were called into a major Trial by Abjuration, losing a lot of stuff from this.  We know next to nothing about the survivors, called Stone Lion or the Homeworlds. Other than Zeta and Psi Galaxies formed from three or so clusters and three light warships, 2 Lola III's and a York. Also countless Odyessy jumpships... I have a theory on this.

Taking a standard Cluster: every Trinary has 15 points. Meaning you need to transport these said points to battle. So working backwards.... Overlord-C = 45 points, Outpost / Outpost=3070 = 17 points ( 2 Aero points, 5 points each others / 22 points ( same but swap Aero for 2 Proto points and another 5 points more BA ) Sassanid / Titan-C / Union-C = 15 points, Lion-C / Lion-WD = 60 points ( 50 of PBI! ) / 16 points, Broadsword / Carrier / Confederate = 5 points.

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Jellico

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #112 on: 03 May 2017, 20:39:32 »
I am saying when the fluff says faction X stripped and moved a factory take it with a big grain of salt. All too often we see faction Y moving in and getting said factory working again with minimal apparent effort.
I used the Bears as a example because they had the best opportunity to strip their factories. See Tokasha's production in TRO Phoenix and 3075 for the result.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #113 on: 30 November 2017, 20:53:55 »
The miniature is, unfortunate.  Second on my list of needs a resculpt behind the Night Gyr.

Considering the Adders based the Blood Asp off the Kingfisher... I feel it's appropriate for my Adders to have them... always.

Agreed on the need for a rescuplt! I have the mini and it is too small and lacking in the heft that I feel this mech should bring. I think I could mod the Sunder or Warhammer IIC 8 into a decent stand in. Any other suggestions?

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #114 on: 01 December 2017, 00:04:58 »
While the artwork found in the Black Thorns book looks better, I think before you make another sculpt you need some better artwork to base it off of.  It certainly has more detail, but it isn't all that great looking either.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #115 on: 23 March 2018, 19:04:08 »
Just a question - is the art, and the mini, meant to depict the A config? Is there a possible reason why the mini wasn't the Prime variant (eg. the version published in the original source was the A for some reason)?

W.

Good question!

Would a hammer hands be be decent basis to convert into a fisher? The current mini is very under sized but I am not sure if the hands is big enough?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #116 on: 23 March 2018, 19:07:45 »
I don't think the mini is undersized.  I've got one sitting on my desk right now and it's comparable in size to recent minis.  It just looks undersized due to that weird scale creep that IWM had going for a few years.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #117 on: 24 March 2018, 18:15:01 »
It seems like it suffers as well from a couple of common issues from minis from the 3058 era- a lack of any kind of dynamic posing abilities, and being very wide but flat in the body. The same can be seen on the Night Gyr, Emperor, and others (even the later Yu Huang).

Agreed on the art though. Resculpting a mini with lame art doesn't help much, unfortunately.
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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #118 on: 25 March 2018, 01:00:56 »
Yeah the Kingfisher along with many of the 3058 Mech's needs its art re-done.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Kingfisher
« Reply #119 on: 25 March 2018, 09:46:33 »
Yeah the Kingfisher along with many all of the 3058 Mech's needs its art re-done.

Fixed
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