Author Topic: Mech of the week: Axman  (Read 39396 times)

Agathos

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 692
Mech of the week: Axman
« on: 18 March 2016, 08:25:29 »


Background

There are iconic Davion 'Mechs (Centurion, Enforcer) and iconic Steiner 'Mechs (Zeus, Atlas, assault mechs in general), but after the formation of the Federated Commonwealth, it was time to ask what the iconic Fed Com BattleMech might be. Some of those in the know pointed to the Hatchetman, and with good reason. The Hatchetman had emerged from a quiet collaboration between Federated Suns designers and Lyran manufacturing, clearly a forerunner of the alliance to be. It was a strong example of the results that could be achieved when these two great nations worked together, being one of the few all-new BattleMech designs to emerge in the 3020s without the help of Lostech, and with innovations like the full-head ejection system. But that was all before the alliance and before the Helm core. In the 3040s the Hatchetman's designer, the NAIS-affiliated B. Banzai, had plans for a bigger, nastier follow-up. The Hatchetman was only 45 tons and had a poor chance of taking down the largest 'Mechs one-on-one, but Banzai's team had in mind a heavier version, packed with Star League technology, that could intimidate even assault MechWarriors.

The design team, and the Defiance/Johnston manufacturers who would bring their work into being, had that "iconic 'Mech" challenge in mind from the beginning. While the Hatchetman was manufactured entirely within Lyran space, this time the project borrowed a trick military contractors have used for over a millennium. It would incorporate components from regions as diverse as possible, so that Fed Com citizens might have some local interest in the design's success, no matter what nation they had been citizens of before 3028. The 1N even included Ferro-Fibrous armor manufactured in captured Liao space, and HildCo jump jets imported from the St. Ives Compact.

At the height of the Federated Commonwealth's success, of course, designing a 'Mech as an emblem probably didn't look risky at all. This triumphalism would backfire as the wheel of fortune turned and the Federated Commonwealth fell apart. As icons of a short-lived nation, the 1N and 2N models have become scarce. But the Axman would live on in new variants. Steiner and Davion may not have agreed on much after splitting up, but they both felt the Axman was a success worth building on.

Variants

As its name implies, the Axman is in essence a Hatchetman, only more so. The original 1N model is built around a simple principle: bring the scariest short-range weapons a mech can mount. That includes the axe, which can crush any 'Mech's cockpit in one blow, but also a class 20 autocannon that does much the same from a slightly greater range. A large pulse laser and three mediums bring additional short-range pain. To free up tonnage for all these weapons, it employs the latest recovered technology: double heat sinks, an XL engine  (somewhat limiting its survivability), and Ferro-Fibrous armor (but not Endo Steel). Its ancestry is clear: the right torso autocannon and arm-mounted lasers imitate the layout of the original Hatchetman. It also features the full-head ejection system. The Axman even copies one of the more peculiar decisions from the Hatchetman: the placement of its medium lasers on the right arm. A MechWarrior who has maneuvered into position to strike with the hatchet must forego the use of the medium lasers, somewhat limiting its ability to exploit the opportunity. This may be necessary anyway if the Axman is jumping; it doesn't have the heat sinks to jump and alpha strike very often. The 1N's biggest weakness is obvious: at long range, it is helpless. Without even the range of an AC/10, the AXM-1N is outranged by the HCT-3F Hatchetman, and badly so by most of its fellow heavy 'Mechs. Like its smaller sibling, the AXM-1N is best suited to urban, rough, or heavily forested terrain, where it can exploit cover, then fire its jump jets to ambush an enemy and strike with its short-range armament. Its role as an ambush predator is confirmed by the parsimonious 2 tons of autocannon ammunition. AXM-1N MechWarriors should not waste shots in the autocannon's long-range bracket.

The 2N is a dramatic departure. Dropping the autocannon in favor of two LRMs-15s, it becomes a long-range support mech. Critics can rightly argue that the design fights against itself: there is no realistic way to engage the same target with LRMs and a hatchet. One answer is to place the 2N in a fire support lance. It can stand among three Archers and contribute its own LRM volleys, while providing a very nasty surprise to the enemy skirmisher who tries to close with the fire support. Here, too, however, it is limited by its ammunition supply. With a mere two tons to feed thirty tubes, the Axman will exhaust its information ammunition before a dedicated fire support mech should. At that point the MechWarrior may be sorely tempted to close and use that hatchet and laser armament. Another option, after the introduction of Thunder LRMs, might be to forego long-range fire and use minefields to steer the enemy into the short-range fight your hatchet craves. For its flaws, however, the 2N may be the most famous Axman variant, particularly in Lyran space. As the personal ride of Adam Steiner, it contributed to the counterattack on Somerset. This would win it a role in a critically panned but popular propaganda holovid series, which helped deflate the Clans' image where they otherwise looked unstoppable. Experienced military personnel may roll their eyes at its holovid star status, but to a Fed Com citizen with limited experience in military affairs, the 2N is the Axman.

After the breakup of the Federated Commonwealth, the 1N and 2N models were in trouble. Spreading the supply chain across both the old Lyran Commonwealth and the Federated Suns meant that Defiance Industries on Hesperus II and Johnston Industries on New Syrtis each had a limited supply of parts from which to build additional copies. When these ran out, it was back to the drawing board.

The Defiance team must have already had some ideas for updating the Axman to the state of the art: they quickly produced the AXM-3S, a refined version of the 1N that addresses many of the original's flaws. First, it replaces the XL fusion engine in the original with a slightly more robust Light version, which is a welcome change in a 'Mech that is expected to absorb close-range fire from other heavy 'Mechs. The added weight requires the removal of the large pulse laser, but the mediums are upgraded to extended-range versions and moved to the non-hatchet arm. The autocannon is replaced with the LB-20X, which is even scarier than the original. After the combination of class-20 slugs and hatchet blows open holes in a target's armor, the 3S can switch to cluster rounds and inflict maximum damage on internal components. The cluster rounds are also a menace to non-mech vehicles and to infantry, which are especially likely to be deployed in the Axman's favored urban environment. A much more generous 4 tons of ammunition provides ample reloads of both slugs and cluster rounds. Finally, a Guardian ECM suite is a valuable addition to a short-ranged ambush 'Mech. It will be more difficult for Beagle-equipped units to pin down a hidden Axman's location, when the Axman does strike, its victim won't be a spotter for C3-enhanced fire from its lancemates. Introduced in 3060, the 3S was available to face off against Davion-commanded 1N and 2N variants in the Civil War.

Johnston and the AFFS took longer to retool the Axman, and when they did, they departed a little further from the original. Both Davion variants would employ new NAIS-developed autocannon technology. Introduced in 3069, the AXM-3Sr mounted a rotary AC/5 in place of the larger gun. This gives it more range than the 1N, while potentially equaling the larger autocannon's throw weight. The large pulse laser is downgraded to a medium and moved to the torso, and as with the 3S, the 3 ER mediums appear in the left arm. A C3 slave gives the MechWarrior additional rewards for closing with the enemy. If the hatchet doesn't get them, accurate supporting fire probably will.

Two years later, the AXM-4D would show off more NAIS innovations. It may be the biggest departure from the original Hatchetman/Axman role, even more than the 2N was. The difference is its loss of jump jets. Removing jump jets from an already fairly slow mech transforms it from predator to prey in the dense urban environment that the 1N and 3S are suited to. The chances of closing with an enemy who doesn't want to are slim, and the Axman pilot can forget his dream of jumping and burying an axe in an enemy's thin rear armor. Instead, the 4D is primarily a medium-range gunboat. A quartet of light class 5 autocannons give it greater range than all but the 2N, although it is by no means a sniper. Combined with 2 medium lasers, they seem like a light punch for a groundbound 65-tonner that only runs at 64kph. The 4D, however, can be surprisingly dangerous. A targeting computer enhances the effectiveness of its guns, and the AXM-4D pilot who is trying to close to hatchet range, firing autocannons the whole time, can disable a target with highly accurate fire before ever reaching that range. Still, it is a light touch for its weight and an argument could be made that it would hit harder if one or two LACs were replaced with lasers (a switch to double heat sinks could have absorbed all of the extra load). Why didn't its designers agree? Clearly they wanted to demonstrate the new LAC and targeting computer, but they probably had another innovation in mind: the LACs are best matched with a supply of precision or armor-piercing ammunition. This is the big advantage the LACs have over alternative weapons, and when combined with the targeting computer they can be especially devastating. The only problem with this pairing is an echo of the 1N and 2N: just two tons of information ammunition feed the four guns, and to cut that in half with advanced munitions leaves a 'Mech that can only take down one opponent before retiring to reload.

In 3074, the Defiance research team on Furillo produced another variant I should mention here, even though the AXM-6X is not an Axman. This is easy to verify by visual inspection: it doesn't carry an axe. Instead, the 6X frees up both hands to carry one of a variety of modular weapon pods, as a cheaper alternative to Omni technology. Perhaps the designers felt that the hatchet-wielder had hand and arm actuators easily adapted to this purpose, but more likely they chose the platform with politics in mind. Archon Adam Steiner would be a useful ally to bring the 6X into full production, and the team knew him to fondly remember his days in the Axman's cockpit. Sure enough, with his help Defiance would secure orders for the 6T production model, delivering the first in 3083. The 6X is amazingly fast for a heavy mech, as it adds a supercharger to its Clan-spec 325XL to run at over 100kph. Many a 3S or 4D MechWarrior has probably wished they had that speed when trying to close to hatchet range. The weapon pods, though innovative and versatile, don't contribute all that much firepower. They are limited to just one medium-sized weapon (LAC/5, NLRM-10, medium laser, MML-7, Streak-6) or a few small weapons (heavy flamers, fluid guns, LRM-5s). The mech's real punch comes from its twin shoulder-mounted Thunderbolt launchers (a callback to the LRM racks on Adam Steiner's 2N model) and the leg-mounted ER medium lasers. The 6X continues an Axman tradition by only providing a ton of reloads for each launcher. The 6T, after dropping the experimental supercharger (and switching to an Inner Sphere XL), frees up the tonnage to double that.


Not an Axman.

Final Thoughts

The Axman and I go way back, so I was pleased I could cover it in this, my first fan article. If I recall correctly, I included the Axman in my first order of Ral Partha minis. The brutal single-mindedness of the 1N's “punch big holes at close range” appealed to me.
 
“If you say 'information is ammunition' one more time, I'm going to swing this axe in a very uncomfortable place.”
« Last Edit: 19 March 2016, 23:31:32 by Agathos »

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #1 on: 18 March 2016, 10:03:30 »
An excellent article on a classic Mech.  Hell it was watching Robot Jox and the cartoon that got me and my friends into Battletech so the Axeman 2N has a place in my heart for that.  As for variants, i'm not sure what one I like more, the LB-20 vs the RAC is an interesting toss up. Do you want to do big damage to one section or sandblast whilst trying to close.  And why could they not give the 6X a hatchet, that speed would have been ideal. Oh well! Great write up :)
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2583
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #2 on: 18 March 2016, 10:43:07 »
Really good write up that has inspired me to have a go with the different variants in MegaMech if nothing else
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

Terrace

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #3 on: 18 March 2016, 11:05:40 »
Yeah, the Handheld Weapons Pods are a mistake, too much of a gimmick for the firepower they bring to the battlefield. The -6X and -6T not only should not be considered Axemen, but they should be confined to the dustbin of history.

The -3S, -3Sr, and -4D, however, are extremely worthy successors to the -1N and -2N, and are probably viable all the way into the Dark Ages. I just wish they had a model with Triple-Strength Myomer...

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #4 on: 18 March 2016, 11:49:46 »
One thing of note on the 3Sr.  It AFAICT replaces the 1N's AC/20 only.  And for it gets a RAC/5, a MPL, a C3S, and a DHS.  For those playing at home, that means it still has the same two tons of ammo, or 40 rounds.  Kinda light to keep a RAC fed throughout a fight.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #5 on: 18 March 2016, 12:45:16 »
Nice write up, pointing out the N2's low information ammunition was a nice touch.

I always liked the Axman. While I thought more could have been done with the machine, though the 3S is a fun LB-20X machine.

As for the 6X ans 6T, think they prove the limitations of hand held weaponry without the benefit of TSM. A Thunderbolt armed Axman is still interesting.     
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #6 on: 18 March 2016, 13:07:19 »
Awesome write-up, Agathos! Very good analysis of this old machine.

The Axman isn't one that I've used before, but I've faced it a handful of times. The -3S is a fine 'Mech if it can get into its sweet spot while the -6S is dangerous even without handhelds. Empty out the Thunderbolt bins, charge in, and start punching while gunning away with the ER Mediums. It's caused me enough problems before.

Gotta agree that the -4D is probably a tech demonstrator, though. Either that or its built to take out a single Light 'Mech per battle before charging in and going ham with its axe. Dislike it either way.

One thing of note on the 3Sr.  It AFAICT replaces the 1N's AC/20 only.  And for it gets a RAC/5, a MPL, a C3S, and a DHS.  For those playing at home, that means it still has the same two tons of ammo, or 40 rounds.  Kinda light to keep a RAC fed throughout a fight.

The -3Sr is almost certainly a (r)efit of the -3S. It replaces the LB-X with the RAC, using those now-empty CT criticals for the C3 Slave and Medium Pulse Laser while the extra Heat Sink goes straight into the engine. That Light Engine does allow it to mount a total of four tons of ammo, more than enough for nearly any fight.
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #7 on: 18 March 2016, 15:02:40 »
As its name implies, the Axman is in essence a Hatchetman, only more so. The original 1N model is built around a simple principle: bring the scariest short-range weapons a mech can mount. That includes the axe, which can crush any 'Mech's cockpit in one blow, but also a class 20 autocannon that does much the same from a slightly greater range. A large pulse laser and three mediums bring additional short-range pain.

Ahh..  One of the best examples of USE of what's available to make a scary as heck unit.  Get in close and bring the pain!!!

To free up tonnage for all these weapons, it employs the latest recovered technology: double heat sinks, an XL engine  (somewhat limiting its survivability), and Ferro-Fibrous armor (but not Endo Steel).

For me, when making mechs larger than 35 tons, Endo steel is much more viable in tonnage saved than Ferro fiber, but the cost of Endo versus Ferro is often a killer in C-bill games..

Like its smaller sibling, the AXM-1N is best suited to urban, rough, or heavily forested terrain, where it can exploit cover, then fire its jump jets to ambush an enemy and strike with its short-range armament. Its role as an ambush predator is confirmed by the parsimonious 2 tons of autocannon ammunition. AXM-1N MechWarriors should not waste shots in the autocannon's long-range bracket.

WHich to me screams "This mech is best as a back protector for all your long range smiters..

Finally, a Guardian ECM suite is a valuable addition to a short-ranged ambush 'Mech. It will be more difficult for Beagle-equipped units to pin down a hidden Axman's location, when the Axman does strike, its victim won't be a spotter for C3-enhanced fire from its lancemates. Introduced in 3060, the 3S was available to face off against Davion-commanded 1N and 2N variants in the Civil War.

I LOVED this version.  The LB-20x is one of the best weapons around..  THe LB gives a greater range than the flat 20 normally has, and does so with the capacity to BB sand away armor!...

Introduced in 3069, the AXM-3Sr mounted a rotary AC/5 in place of the larger gun. This gives it more range than the 1N, while potentially equaling the larger autocannon's throw weight. The large pulse laser is downgraded to a medium and moved to the torso, and as with the 3S, the 3 ER mediums appear in the left arm. A C3 slave gives the MechWarrior additional rewards for closing with the enemy. If the hatchet doesn't get them, accurate supporting fire probably will.

Never liked this version, even with me normally liking C3 mechs..

Two years later, the AXM-4D would show off more NAIS innovations. It may be the biggest departure from the original Hatchetman/Axman role, even more than the 2N was.

In 3074, the Defiance research team on Furillo produced another variant I should mention here, even though the AXM-6X is not an Axman.

Both of those versions i could never understand..  WHY??  It would be like making an archer that is only carrying Lasers, or an Atlas that has no arms...

For Canon Hatchet wielding mechs, this the Berserker and Nightsky were always my favorites...  Though going in at 65 tons vice 60 (for the saving of 1 ton on the Hatchet) never was to my liking, the extra armor the 65 could carry usually made up for that in game play..

The one version i would have LOVED seeing is one sporting Stealth armor..
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

Agathos

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 692
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #8 on: 18 March 2016, 15:09:39 »
Thanks for the comments, everyone!

The -3Sr is almost certainly a (r)efit of the -3S. It replaces the LB-X with the RAC, using those now-empty CT criticals for the C3 Slave and Medium Pulse Laser while the extra Heat Sink goes straight into the engine.

Those two codes confused me while I was writing, but now I don't think there's a lineage between the 3S and the 3Sr. I'll double check when I'm home, but I recall TRO3050U says the 3S is a Steiner design while the very brief Old Is the New New blurb in TRO3085 says the 3Sr is an AFFS design. Unless these two old flames are getting together to swap 'Mech designs like they did when they were dating?

sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #9 on: 18 March 2016, 15:18:56 »
This is one of those mechs that I think the original is still one of the best versions, with only the 3S being slightly better. Sure it is range-limited, but in a mobility-restricted fight it is a beast. Given the heat capabilities, I don't usually mind skipping the medium lasers to take a swing with the hatchet, so it doesn't feel like as much of a problem as loosing the arm laser on a Hatchetman does. Plus the Hatchet is now big enough to be a one-shot cockpit kill threat. That is a 'big deal' when it comes to tonnage-based damage weapons. Once you become a headcap threat people start to pay more attention. While, for the lack of speed and close range, it would have been nice to find a way to use a standard engine instead of the XL, the armor is beefy enough that it still doesn't feel fragile.

I actually think this mech is a better base for a melee mech than the Hatchetman, but for some reason, it hasn't ever received the variety of variants. This mech BEGS for an MML variant, or one with a standard engine and a snub-nose PPC instead of the AC/20. The thunderbolt variant was interesting, but handicapped by the stupid weapon pod business. All in all, I think the original -1N is still one of the best and I'm always glad to take on in my forces.

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #10 on: 18 March 2016, 15:26:58 »
Those two codes confused me while I was writing, but now I don't think there's a lineage between the 3S and the 3Sr. I'll double check when I'm home, but I recall TRO3050U says the 3S is a Steiner design while the very brief Old Is the New New blurb in TRO3085 says the 3Sr is an AFFS design. Unless these two old flames are getting together to swap 'Mech designs like they did when they were dating?

That's completely possible, I did admittedly say that without checking what 3085's ONN said. If it mentions the AFFS...then I dunno what to think. Maybe it's a refit of exported -3S's, or Johnston's in-house take on a design they purchased the schematics for? Who knows. The two variants are (to me) clearly related, though.
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

Agathos

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 692
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #11 on: 18 March 2016, 19:51:57 »
Yeah, I looked again and it still says AFFS, but it's hard to argue with the similarity of the designs as you say. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that there's been some communication between the design teams, for old time's sake and with the motivation of a common enemy in 3069.

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #12 on: 18 March 2016, 21:47:23 »
I actually think this mech is a better base for a melee mech than the Hatchetman, but for some reason, it hasn't ever received the variety of variants. This mech BEGS for an MML variant, or one with a standard engine and a snub-nose PPC instead of the AC/20. The thunderbolt variant was interesting, but handicapped by the stupid weapon pod business. All in all, I think the original -1N is still one of the best and I'm always glad to take on in my forces.

To me, the best tonnages for hatchet wielders are always in brackets of 15 tons (equal to the weight of the hatchet since for every 15 tons or fraction thereof, the hatchet weighs in at one ton and one crit)..  So, 30, 45, 60, 75 and 90 are the sweet spots for me...

It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #13 on: 18 March 2016, 22:00:06 »
And funny enough, there's at least one canon hatchet-wielding mech at ever one of those tonnages except 90.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7915
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #14 on: 18 March 2016, 22:18:10 »
The 6X/6T missed an opportunity to keep some of its axeman cred.

They could have given it a hatchet as a handheld weapon option.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #15 on: 18 March 2016, 23:21:23 »
I remember reading in MW Novel (not Dark Age) Initiation to War, where one of Liao-backed Mercenary units working against Shu County on Epsilon Eridani had a modified Axman, which lost it's hatched after leaving the arm and ax in remains of a Black Knight.  Pilot had the arm of the Black Knight mounted on his 1N, giving his Mech a regular Large Laser in place of the Ax, with 1N's existing Large Pulse Laser and assorted other weapons.  Pretty nasty machine.

It's too bad it wasn't made canon record sheet.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #16 on: 19 March 2016, 00:58:12 »
To me, the best tonnages for hatchet wielders are always in brackets of 15 tons (equal to the weight of the hatchet since for every 15 tons or fraction thereof, the hatchet weighs in at one ton and one crit)..  So, 30, 45, 60, 75 and 90 are the sweet spots for me...

While it's true that those tonnages are the most efficient, anything 60T or greater is a bigger threat because of the headcap danger. So, while the Hatchetman is at a more efficient tonnage, I'd argue that the axman is still a better hatchet user simply because it is over the 60T threshold.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #17 on: 19 March 2016, 01:43:11 »
People badly overestimate the chances of actually hitting someone in the head with a melee weapon.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #18 on: 19 March 2016, 04:35:05 »
Bizarre, though, that nobody thought to thread any of the variants with TSM.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #19 on: 19 March 2016, 07:00:20 »
Bizarre, though, that nobody thought to thread any of the variants with TSM.

That..that is actually a really good point!  Mebbe replace the AC-20 with a Heavy PPC and trim the heatsinks down to the standard 10 doubles and fit some ER mediums and give it TSM.  Basically you'd make a Mortis.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Maverick__

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 236
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #20 on: 19 March 2016, 11:05:24 »
People badly overestimate the chances of actually hitting someone in the head with a melee weapon.
I remember the guy who was teaching me battletech tell me essentially the same thing when I picked the Axman for my lance.....then he backed this mech into a level 1 deep body of water and my Axman followed into the lake with an hatchet attack that hit the head.  (granted this was before total warfare rules when you used the punch table when target mech was behind a hill or in water. :) )

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #21 on: 19 March 2016, 12:12:01 »
And funny enough, there's at least one canon hatchet-wielding mech at ever one of those tonnages except 90.

LEt's see..  We have iirc the Scarab at 30..  Hatchetman for 45, What is at 60 and 75?
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #22 on: 19 March 2016, 13:46:57 »
Ti Ts'ang (60) and the Clanbuster variant of the Black Knight (75).

And the 30 ton bracket has the Valiant in addition to the Scarabus.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #23 on: 20 March 2016, 00:27:35 »
Thanks for the heads up..

Wonder why they never adapted any 90 tonners to carry one.
PS sorry to the Original poster for a slight derailment of the thread on that..
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #24 on: 20 March 2016, 00:56:54 »
Thanks for the heads up..

Wonder why they never adapted any 90 tonners to carry one.
PS sorry to the Original poster for a slight derailment of the thread on that..

Because they went whole hog and made the Berserker, and gave a hatchet to a 100 ton mech with a 400XL engine and MASC?  And because that wasn't enough, eventually came up with a couple of variants that drop the MASC so they can fit TSM and split light mechs in two with one blow?

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #25 on: 20 March 2016, 04:02:03 »
Lights? I don't think there's anything around that wants to take a 40 point tickle from a TSM'ed up 'zerker. 
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Caedis Animus

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2129
  • How can a bird be sultry? Very carefully.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #26 on: 20 March 2016, 11:20:43 »
Yeah, I'm pretty sure anything under 50 tons is terrified of the Berserker with active TSM. Assuming it catches them.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #27 on: 20 March 2016, 12:51:25 »
Pretty sure anything is. Especially with XL engined Assaults being so prevalent.

Ah, Axman. Armed with 2 weapons which are decidedly inefficient but warms the soul to employ in a Btech game. She doesn't look like much, she doesn't have the sheer mass of the Berserker, she doesn't have the TSM-fueled rabid-rage of the Ti Tsang, but when that Axe hits that Head just right... these hills sing.

AXM-3S is the defining variant IMHO.

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #28 on: 20 March 2016, 12:57:49 »
Lights? I don't think there's anything around that wants to take a 40 point tickle from a TSM'ed up 'zerker.

More that a hit on a light, even a well armored one can take a limb and the side torso most likely, or is guaranteed to core the center front to back with a bit to spare.  Why I used the 'split the target in half' criteria.  That is enough damage a light mech will be lucky to be salvageable later, the best the target can hope for is being mission killed and left intact enough to try to withdraw.  At any rate, connect and he's out of the fight.

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5003
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #29 on: 20 March 2016, 14:11:09 »
And because that wasn't enough, eventually came up with a couple of variants that drop the MASC so they can fit TSM and split light mechs in two with one blow?

At least they were never sadistic enough to replace the hatchet with talons. A 60 point kick could instantly de-leg about 95% of every 'Mech ever built.   [skull]
I have spoken.


garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #30 on: 20 March 2016, 14:47:03 »
Yeah, I'm pretty sure anything under 50 tons is terrified of the Berserker with active TSM. Assuming it catches them.
With a 4/6(8) move once TSM is active), it should be able to catch most things...
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

Agathos

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 692
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #31 on: 20 March 2016, 18:14:48 »
PS sorry to the Original poster for a slight derailment of the thread on that..

I see last week's Hatchetman discussion included a little digression about the Awesome, so I'd say things are right on schedule.

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2582
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #32 on: 20 March 2016, 22:48:01 »
Pretty sure anything is. Especially with XL engined Assaults being so prevalent.

Ah, Axman. Armed with 2 weapons which are decidedly inefficient but warms the soul to employ in a Btech game. She doesn't look like much, she doesn't have the sheer mass of the Berserker, she doesn't have the TSM-fueled rabid-rage of the Ti Tsang, but when that Axe hits that Head just right... these hills sing.

AXM-3S is the defining variant IMHO.

Ah yes, the Ti Tsang.  Seems to me that it was developed specifically to beat the Axman.  While it doesn't have the big gun threat, its better speed  and maneuverability, better armour, and TSM-assist performance boosts all seem to combine to create a package that outperforms the Axman in most respects.  Must've been pretty humiliating for the Axman's Davion designers to realize that they'd been beaten by the Capellans at their own game.  >:D

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #33 on: 20 March 2016, 23:32:39 »
While I never read it in any of the fluff, I always thought the No-Dachi was built to compete with the Axman as well.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #34 on: 21 March 2016, 00:51:28 »
Well, it does say that the Combine was trying to develop a hatchet - wielding mech but the Samurai found it barbaric.   So it does everything but outright state it.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Valtech

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #35 on: 02 November 2020, 00:54:12 »
There is a saying applied to Battleships and Tanks that goes something like this...

Speed, protection, firepower...pick two"

This I think is the heart of the problem for both the Axman and its little brother Hatchetman in their
stock offering. They are SLOW and especially in the Axman VERY short ranged in reach. Mechs that
have physical attacks in their weaponry in my view must have a good turn of speed...and even better
have at least one main weapon with reach... The LB-20X is a good start but I would even sacrifice
some medium beamers for a clantech ER-PPC or such. I would also want at least more speed, the
jump jets are nice and a must have but at least  5-8 ground speed...  The Axman has potential
and I do like it, flaws notwithstanding.... 8)
« Last Edit: 02 November 2020, 00:59:10 by Valtech »

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #36 on: 02 November 2020, 01:04:48 »
4/6/4 is an entirely respectable speed for a heavy mech in 3050.  Yes it’s short-ranged, but no more so than many other close-Assault units, like the Hunchback or Victor, or even an Atlas (minus its LRM20).  It may not be tremendously effective at running swifter enemies down, but it is great at keeping them away.  That’s why I like using it as a bodyguard for a Fire Support Lance.  Yes, go run up and attack those Archers.  Sure.  What’s that, you didn’t notice the Axman hidden behind a building until it jumped right into your face, AC20 blazing and axe falling?  Too bad, so sad.  I’d say you live and learn, but, well...*you* won’t.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #37 on: 02 November 2020, 01:27:14 »
If you want something faster with range, get a Falconer. The Axman is built to be a ambush predator.

And I have done the numbers on slapping a Gauss or a couple of PPC Axman. you would have to make so many changes, might as well pilot a different mech.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #38 on: 02 November 2020, 01:30:05 »
Personally, I'd have just liked seeing the 1N's LPL replaced with an ER Large Laser and armor.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #39 on: 02 November 2020, 12:41:17 »
4/6/4 is an entirely respectable speed for a heavy mech in 3050.  Yes it’s short-ranged, but no more so than many other close-Assault units, like the Hunchback or Victor, or even an Atlas (minus its LRM20).

Ah yes, the Ti Tsang.  Seems to me that it was developed specifically to beat the Axman.  While it doesn't have the big gun threat, its better speed  and maneuverability, better armour, and TSM-assist performance boosts all seem to combine to create a package that outperforms the Axman in most respects.  Must've been pretty humiliating for the Axman's Davion designers to realize that they'd been beaten by the Capellans at their own game.  >:D

Yeah, its a sad cousin to the Capellan TSM flagship.  The 3050 Victor has a Gauss Rifle for a reason and the Hunchback has faded since that speed is no longer a 'standard' for heavier designs as it was in 3025.

The Axman would have been fine for the Inner Sphere if the Clans had not introduced the standard of heavies moving 5/8.  While the IS did not adopt it completely, enough of the frontline equipment it could expect to face would have that speed.

Then again, I share Grayson's attitude towards melee weapons . . . with a special exception for the Tsi T'sang and No Dachi 2KO.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #40 on: 02 November 2020, 12:57:31 »
The Ti Ts’ang is a very different mech, with its TSM and a collection of small energy weapons for fine-tuning.  The Axman’s AC is as important as its axe.  Staying two hexes from a Ti Ts’ang takes away its main advantage and leaves it as little more than a hot-running ml boat.  Staying two hexes from an Axman puts you in prime AC20 range.  The Axman is an ambush predator, that waits out of sight for you to get close.  The Ti Ts’ang is an open field fighter that runs down its prey.  I completely reject your characterization of the Victor and Hunchback.  The VTR-9K is just a different mech from the 9B.  It plays completely different.  The Hunchback is entirely relevant on a modern battlefield, it hasn’t faded at all.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #41 on: 02 November 2020, 13:47:54 »
Ti Ts’ang was produced 10 years later in response to the Axman. That's like basing all your criticism of the Panther PNT-9R on the introduction of the Wolfhound WLF-2 years later.
   
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Starfury

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 788
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #42 on: 02 November 2020, 16:33:21 »
I would love an Axman variant with TSM or an Ultra AC/20, but we'll have to wait for future variants to appear. I have had luck using the 1N and 2N together, using jump jets to maneuver in rough terrain and awaken the enemy with LRMs before the 1Ns can get onto AC/20 range, but in later eras there are better options for a short range/long range quartet.  As an aside, has anyone ever tried to run a company of hatchet carrying designs?

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #43 on: 02 November 2020, 17:02:11 »
I've never tried. That's interesting question to Axsk. 
In Canon it's properly such a uncommon mech, seeing company be highly surprising.  Especially with FedSuns side lost access to some of the stuff made 1N a effective mech, switching to light autocannons was big downer for me for it.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Kerfuffin(925)

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3691
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #44 on: 02 November 2020, 17:21:05 »
Well see some kind of modern Axman with one of these rec guides or another. I don’t have any real idea about how it will be, but I am interested.
NCKestrel’s new favorite.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #45 on: 02 November 2020, 17:51:00 »
The Ti Ts’ang is a very different mech, with its TSM and a collection of small energy weapons for fine-tuning.  The Axman’s AC is as important as its axe.  Staying two hexes from a Ti Ts’ang takes away its main advantage and leaves it as little more than a hot-running ml boat.  Staying two hexes from an Axman puts you in prime AC20 range.  The Axman is an ambush predator, that waits out of sight for you to get close.  The Ti Ts’ang is an open field fighter that runs down its prey.  I completely reject your characterization of the Victor and Hunchback.  The VTR-9K is just a different mech from the 9B.  It plays completely different.  The Hunchback is entirely relevant on a modern battlefield, it hasn’t faded at all.

Calling it a ambusher is making excuses for the mech in the 'modern' era when it came out.  An ambush with mechs is generally a happy accident, planning your doctrine for fighting a invasion with 'ambushes' is a strategy destined to fail.  Leave off the TSM and the Ti Ts'ang still has the speed to bring that axe into play b/c it can chase down the slower 4/6 designs that are trying to avoid it or at least cause a disruption in enemy lines.

If it was 3025 it would be mostly viable, just like the AC/20 Hunchback & Victor- or the sort of Hatchetman.  Short range mechs- hatchet or AC/20- that cannot close the range are casualties waiting to happen.  The Victor got a Gauss Rifle update in 3050 and at least Ultras in later periods to extend the range a bit.  The Hunchback does not have the mobility of even the Victor with its JJ, with less armor and structure.  The  Quasimodo and -7R (IIRC) go faster than 4/6 for a reason- because the battlefield standards have increased.  So do later Hatchetmen.

Ti Ts’ang was produced 10 years later in response to the Axman. That's like basing all your criticism of the Panther PNT-9R on the introduction of the Wolfhound WLF-2 years later.

No, its simply pointing out that the implementation of the concept is flawed and a later design did it right.  The Panther as a pocket medium is viable in 3025 play . . . slow short-ranged was viable in 3025 when you lacked the range and damage of current weapons.  The Axman needs to go faster as a post-Helm/Clan design . . . heck, the Hatchetman should have gone faster, but it was forgivable at the time b/c it had a 10 point ranged hit.  Downgrade the Hatchetman's AC to get a bigger engine and it would be interesting to see how it played for the era.  Make the Axman 5/8 and suddenly it is a actual threat in battle to 4/6 line & fire support heavy mechs who can only back up at half the rate the Axman could advance.

Kerfuffin has a interesting point- with it getting new art it will be interesting to see what gets done with a RecGuide design considering the weapon port matching.  Speed?  Armor?

This is not to say I would not laugh to see a merc urban assault company with a Berzerker, some Hatchetmen, an Axman, a Ti T'sang, a Black Knight 9, maybe a salvaged Bucaneer . . .
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #46 on: 02 November 2020, 18:36:06 »
I don’t know what kind of games you’re playing where a 4/6/4 Heavy brawler isn’t viable, but it doesn’t sound like anything I’ve played.  Anywhere that doesn’t have pool table LOS is workable.  Put it with an LRM Lance using IDF from behind a hill, where it can be a hell of a surprise for a quick hunter expecting nothing but Longbows or Archers or something.  Put it in a command Lance to discourage headhunters.  Use it in an urban environment.  There are lots of ways to use an Axman (or Hunchback, or VTR-9B, or whatever) on a modern battlefield.  Even without the axe, a jumping AC20 alone can be a hell of a terrain-denial unit.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #47 on: 03 November 2020, 02:27:23 »
I would love an Axman variant with TSM or an Ultra AC/20, but we'll have to wait for future variants to appear. I have had luck using the 1N and 2N together, using jump jets to maneuver in rough terrain and awaken the enemy with LRMs before the 1Ns can get onto AC/20 range, but in later eras there are better options for a short range/long range quartet.  As an aside, has anyone ever tried to run a company of hatchet carrying designs?

One of my home made companies, has 8 of the 13 mechs with hatchets.
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #48 on: 03 November 2020, 03:08:29 »
Do you call it the Chop Shop?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Sabelkatten

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6959
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #49 on: 03 November 2020, 04:38:39 »
A while ago I decided to try a "Hatchet lance" in MM. 4 Hatchet mechs and 4 fire support mechs vs/ 5 clan mechs.

Forgot to set the bot starting area.

Everything got deployed in an area less than 10 hexes across.

Poor fire support, happy axe murderers! ;D

But regarding the Axeman my main complaint is the tonnage. 65 tons is about as bad as it gets for a Hatchet. If it had been 75 tons it would have been much better.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #50 on: 03 November 2020, 05:29:01 »
Agree, I sometimes wonder if the Axeman started out as a tricked out Thunderbolt. Then again, there are a few mechs that are a little light for their weapon load out for no in game reason.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5003
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #51 on: 03 November 2020, 07:39:06 »
Also the Axman is a product of TRO 3050, where well thought out designs were few and far between.   ;)
I have spoken.


garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #52 on: 03 November 2020, 15:30:53 »
Do you call it the Chop Shop?

Nope..  BUT it may make for a good name..
Here's the run down of my mechs with hatchets
Thundercrack, 60 tons (Lance 2, company 1)
Storm's fury 60 tons (lance 2, company 1)
Storm's front 30 tons (Lance 2, company 1)
Centaur 45 tons (Lance 3, company 1)
Odin 90 tons (Lance 1, company 2)
Woodsman 45 tons (Lance 3, company 2)
Bull 45 tons (Lance 1, company 4)
Boar 45 tons (Lance 1, company 4)
Condor, 75 tons (Lance 2, company 4)
Eagle, 75 tons (Lance 2, company 4)
Samurai 85 tons (Lance 1, company 5)
Kensai 90 tons (Lance 1, company 5)
Sohei 55 tons (Lance 1, company 5)
Knight 100 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Strider 75 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Mace 40 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Flail 35 tons (Lance 1, company 8 )
Scithe 90 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Morning glory 75 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Death's head 50 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Halberd 35 tons (Lance 2, company 8 )
Heimedall, 75 tons (Lance 3, company 9)
Ugg 65 tons (Lance 2, company 11)


But regarding the Axeman my main complaint is the tonnage. 65 tons is about as bad as it gets for a Hatchet. If it had been 75 tons it would have been much better.

That's something i've often remarked about.  15/30/45/60/75/90 are the best tonnages to make, for a hatchet wielding mech..  No wasted tonnage.  THough i do admit, i do have a # that go outside that.
15 of them, do hit that magic #, 7 don't.
« Last Edit: 03 November 2020, 15:32:39 by garhkal »
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

Nightsong

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 556
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #53 on: 05 November 2020, 03:38:23 »
I’m a little surprised the Lyrans didn’t try to shoehorn a Heavy or Improved Heavy Gauss in as a compromise between the -1N and -2Ns. Though to be fair, you’d probably have to make quite a few compromises to do it. Dump the LPL and maybe give it a compact gyro? Would be a good middle of the road between the range of the LRMs and the firepower of the autocannon, plus its Lyran!

Valtech

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #54 on: 05 November 2020, 06:31:22 »
Yeah....my thoughts also. I actually LIKE this mech. Have at least two minis somewhere around here 8)
But I do think it could have been done better... As others have observed, its tonnage may just not be
optimal.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #55 on: 05 November 2020, 07:28:18 »
Funny, thinking about it i think the 2N variant could have been the model for the Kurita's Shiro.  LRM boats with swords, both heavies.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #56 on: 05 November 2020, 11:05:24 »
I’m a little surprised the Lyrans didn’t try to shoehorn a Heavy or Improved Heavy Gauss in as a compromise between the -1N and -2Ns. Though to be fair, you’d probably have to make quite a few compromises to do it. Dump the LPL and maybe give it a compact gyro? Would be a good middle of the road between the range of the LRMs and the firepower of the autocannon, plus its Lyran!

They'd already done that with the Caesar and Barghest.  Those two and the Hollander II seemed to convince them not to bother putting the HGR on anything less than 80 tons.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #57 on: 05 November 2020, 11:55:30 »
They'd already done that with the Caesar and Barghest.  Those two and the Hollander II seemed to convince them not to bother putting the HGR on anything less than 80 tons.

There was also the Crusader CRD-8S which is... comical. I love it for it's insanity of 'let slap the largest gun we have on a traditionally explody missile boat!' but this may have been the design that made the Lyrans go 'Wait, stop! We need to put more thought into this.'
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #58 on: 05 November 2020, 12:13:46 »
Right, I keep forgetting about that mech.  And then someone ends up reminding me anyway.

My headcanon is that all of them were testbed designs that weren't actually intended for combat but got pressed into service when the FedCom Civil War broke out.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4498
    • Tower of Jade
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #59 on: 09 November 2020, 09:56:59 »
Just for giggles I took someone's idea for a 1N refit and ran with it. For a DCMS MechWarrior, I swapped out the AC for an MRM40 rack and the LPL for a snubPPC, and the axe for a sword...then realized i had created a No-Daichi.

Oh well.
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #60 on: 09 November 2020, 10:53:40 »
No you see how the No-Dachi came into being.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

JerichoRehling

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #61 on: 03 December 2020, 18:23:07 »
How did the -3S in 3057 carry a LFE when LFE's weren't introduced til 3062, and even the earliest prototypes were in 3058?

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13083
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #62 on: 03 December 2020, 18:57:30 »
Thanks for the heads up..

Wonder why they never adapted any 90 tonners to carry one.
PS sorry to the Original poster for a slight derailment of the thread on that..

And now I can see it, the Axe-wielding Cyclops variant that needs no AC20 to keep enemy mechs at a distance.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #63 on: 03 December 2020, 22:33:14 »
How did the -3S in 3057 carry a LFE when LFE's weren't introduced til 3062, and even the earliest prototypes were in 3058?
The 3S was introduced in 3060 but yeah, still 2 years too early but I guess we can say the 3S was the LA prototype chassis for the LFE (until tptb gives us a better answer)
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #64 on: 03 December 2020, 22:40:26 »
It's also a year too early for the LB 20-X and ER Medium Laser, too.  Chalk it up to a screw-up on the intro date of the mech, I think.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #65 on: 03 December 2020, 22:42:16 »
While very Kuritan, i'd like to see a MRM variant of the Axman to have been added.  While not accurate, that thing would pulverized a target only be finished off by a large hatchet.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #66 on: 03 December 2020, 22:59:30 »
It's also a year too early for the LB 20-X and ER Medium Laser, too.  Chalk it up to a screw-up on the intro date of the mech, I think.

IntOps gives a production date of 3058 for both ER Lasers and the LB 20-X, so there's no issue there (the AXM-3S has an intro date of 3060).
As for the Light Engine, prototypes started appearing in Lyran forces in late 3058/early 3059, so that could be the reason for the earlier intro date of the 6S.
« Last Edit: 03 December 2020, 23:01:08 by GreekFire »
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #67 on: 03 December 2020, 23:20:29 »
Was going off of JerichoRehling's statement about a 3057 intro date.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #68 on: 04 December 2020, 01:20:21 »
While very Kuritan, i'd like to see a MRM variant of the Axman to have been added.  While not accurate, that thing would pulverized a target only be finished off by a large hatchet.

Two MRM-40s would be sweet..
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

SD501st

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 170
  • Lead me, follow me or get out of my way!
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #69 on: 06 December 2020, 11:08:38 »
Two MRM-40s would be sweet..
And way too heavy with ammunition. I can see 2x20 MRMs as shoulder mounted weapons(fluff had it that the AC 20 had feeding and reliability problems, which is why the LRM variant became the "best known"). Or even 2x30 MRMs, but only with lots of concessions to weight.
BRB, going to build one to test the hypothesis.

Yeah, just as I thought... 2x30's can work, with CASE, but there's no tonnage for any secondary weapon or speed improvement unless going with an XL engine. 2x40s are straight up impossible at 65 tons 4/6/4(and this is considered slow already)without an XL, and even with one, you'll run into either weight or space constraints before you know it. If you want anything that's still an Axman at 65 tons, that is. For this armament of 2x40 MRMApollo +Hatchet+some X-Pulse, I got down to a 90 tonner going 3/5/3(there's weight left over for one goodie, but no space. And that's with only 12 shots per MRM40 and without CASE. Below that weight or above that speed, the hatchet has to go.

TL;DR version: Won't work, simply not possible. If you want 2x40 MRMs, an XL engine+CASE is out, either one or the other because the MRM40's leave only 3 crits open in the side torsi. And you'll have to shave armor off as well. And only 6 shots per launcher
« Last Edit: 06 December 2020, 11:40:31 by SD501st »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #70 on: 06 December 2020, 16:48:34 »
The 1N and 2N already have XL engines.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #71 on: 06 December 2020, 17:57:13 »
Can the Fusion Engine - Compact version  help with room issue?
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

SD501st

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 170
  • Lead me, follow me or get out of my way!
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #72 on: 07 December 2020, 20:09:19 »
For the Axman at 65 tons? No, if you go for a compact engine you instead run out of weight after the Hatchet and 2x20MRMs without ammunition. All a compact engine would accomplish is that the engine becomes almost impossible to be crit'ed before the CT structure goes completely... and for the same max. standard armor, Endo-Steel, 2xMRM 20+Apollo, 3 ERML and the Hatchet you would also have to slow the Mech down to 3/5/3 on the 65 ton platform, which is... let's be nice and call it questionable. And even after that sacrifice, only 1.5 tons are left over. You'd get a better result using a standard engine and armoring that!  xp

I'll better open a thread in the fan design section for these speculations though. So here is the Axman Workshop
« Last Edit: 08 December 2020, 10:46:54 by SD501st »

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #73 on: 23 December 2020, 16:19:26 »
Also the Axman is a product of TRO 3050, where well thought out designs were few and far between.   ;)
So true.  Sad but true.

Though to be fair, you’d probably have to make quite a few compromises to do it. Dump the LPL and maybe give it a compact gyro?
You had me at "dump the LPL."  The -1N has enough close range firepower that a straight swap for a stock PPC looks pretty good, although I have to ask who thought it was a good idea to put the 3 medium lasers, on the same arm as the hatchet?  :bang: 
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2582
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #74 on: 23 December 2020, 23:46:05 »
So true.  Sad but true.
You had me at "dump the LPL."  The -1N has enough close range firepower that a straight swap for a stock PPC looks pretty good, although I have to ask who thought it was a good idea to put the 3 medium lasers, on the same arm as the hatchet?  :bang:

Well, it does give some coverage to what is otherwise a gunnery blind spot.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #75 on: 26 December 2020, 14:55:35 »
Well, it does give some coverage to what is otherwise a gunnery blind spot.

cheers,

Gabe
Put the ostensibly "long ranged" large pulse laser or the LRMs in the right arm.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2582
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #76 on: 27 December 2020, 00:02:47 »
Put the ostensibly "long ranged" large pulse laser or the LRMs in the right arm.

I don't think that's really so different from the 3 ML, if the hatchet is still there. The point is to have *something* that you can shoot at an opponent who happens to be sitting in your right firing arc, out of reach of the hatchet.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #77 on: 28 December 2020, 22:14:36 »
I don't think that's really so different from the 3 ML, if the hatchet is still there. The point is to have *something* that you can shoot at an opponent who happens to be sitting in your right firing arc, out of reach of the hatchet.

cheers,

Gabe
I know IS large pulse has the same range bands as a medium laser, but it is occasionally fluffed as a "long range" weapon because reasons. But 3 mediums would be better used on the left arm because they have more combined damage than the large pulse.  That way you still have a right side gun, but don't have to choose between 3x5 damage or the hatchet.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #78 on: 29 December 2020, 14:20:31 »
At range 7+, imo the LPL is better, as it hits as if at medium...
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12027
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #79 on: 29 December 2020, 19:31:46 »
since you can fire any weapons on the opposite arm while using a hatchet, you really want the 3 ML's on the "offhand" arm from the hatchet so you can fire those ML's while still able to bash with the hatchet. currently you can't, which makes it a questionable design choice. the LPL does less damage and at point blank range its -2 to hit is largely redundant.

this is also why the hatchetman's one ML per arm inefficent as well, as it would be much more combat effective if it mounted both in the offhand arm and could volley them off alonside the hatchet.

and since weapons fire occurs before the melee combat phase, it is not uncommon for less experianced players to fire their guns, then realize they can't legally use the hatchet anymore.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13083
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #80 on: 30 December 2020, 12:53:16 »
What would have made sense is to have the LPL be an ERLL & put THAT in the Axe arm.  So you can snipe from range if you have to.
Then with the free tonnage you upgrade the ML's to MPLs & have them in the Arm Opposite The Axe.
Walla, weapons in either arm & the PL's work at the point blank range the Axe was meant for, and you have a gun that can hit out to 19 hexes.


I know IS large pulse has the same range bands as a medium laser, but it is occasionally fluffed as a "long range" weapon because reasons.
It actually doesn't.
The LPL has an extra Hex at Medium range making it 3-7-10
I agree on the rest though as I mentioned above.
« Last Edit: 30 December 2020, 12:55:06 by Hellraiser »
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #81 on: 30 December 2020, 14:52:34 »
The way I look at it, the large pulse has no long range band, a medium range band from 8-10, a short band from 4-7, and a special pulse band from 1-3.

I think the axman makes more more sense if it was meant to be one of a handful of high-tech mechs on the battlefield, hunting Panther and Vindicators. In the context of the clan invasion? Not so much

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2582
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #82 on: 30 December 2020, 15:12:10 »
What would have made sense is to have the LPL be an ERLL & put THAT in the Axe arm.  So you can snipe from range if you have to.
Then with the free tonnage you upgrade the ML's to MPLs & have them in the Arm Opposite The Axe.
Walla, weapons in either arm & the PL's work at the point blank range the Axe was meant for, and you have a gun that can hit out to 19 hexes.

Not quite.  Swapping the LPL for an ERLL frees up only two tons, not three. So you can upgrade two of the MLs to MPLs, but not all three without giving up something else.

The way I look at it, the large pulse has no long range band, a medium range band from 8-10, a short band from 4-7, and a special pulse band from 1-3.

I think the axman makes more more sense if it was meant to be one of a handful of high-tech mechs on the battlefield, hunting Panther and Vindicators. In the context of the clan invasion? Not so much

It doesn't even make sense doing that, unless it's in close quarters. Remember, even intro-tech Panthers and Vindicators have a PPC that reaches out to 18 hexes, which the -1N Axman has no answer for. The -2N is a different story.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #83 on: 30 December 2020, 15:12:57 »
Hatchetman had the same problem of putting the laser on the same arm as the hatchet, a bad habit with FedCom/Fasa we don't see change until later mechs like the Berserker and Nightsky that makes sure the hatchet arm is free for swinging. It's like they thought of the Hatchet as a backup weapon we your heat has at it's limit vs something pilots would use just as much as the med lasers when given the chance.

Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #84 on: 30 December 2020, 15:39:05 »
It's one of those FASA "let's insure the mech isn't optimized" things.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Phobos

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 664
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #85 on: 30 December 2020, 16:57:43 »
Now at least there is a quirk to actually use the arm weapons when doing a melee attack, or does that only count for regular fist attacks rather than melee weapons?

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #86 on: 31 December 2020, 10:42:38 »
I really wish they had allowed for AX at least do more damage.  Most of the time, people just kick because they leg damage is op.  (shrugs)  It needs to be changed up.

Again, i saw some cheese player try to push his TWO AX wielding Berserker, thinking you could do two fist/ax attacks at same time.  xp
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #87 on: 31 December 2020, 12:33:41 »
I really wish they had allowed for AX at least do more damage.  Most of the time, people just kick because they leg damage is op.  (shrugs)  It needs to be changed up.

Again, i saw some cheese player try to push his TWO AX wielding Berserker, thinking you could do two fist/ax attacks at same time.  xp
I made that mistake too.  :(
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

kindalas

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 463
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #88 on: 31 December 2020, 23:47:42 »
My mistake for the longest time was hatchets hitting on the punch hit location table.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #89 on: 01 January 2021, 00:34:03 »
Practically everyone made that mistake until Total Warfare made it explicit that it hit on the full-body table.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Atarlost

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 559
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #90 on: 01 January 2021, 03:58:20 »
Practically everyone made that mistake until Total Warfare made it explicit that it hit on the full-body table.

Using the punch table is the only way melee weapons make sense.  Otherwise they do the same damage as two punches with the punch table offsetting any advantage they get from more concentrated damage.  So long as fists are free there's just no reason to consider anything you have to pay tonnage for. 

Moonsword

  • Acutus Gladius
  • Global Moderator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16594
  • You interrupted me reading TROs for this?
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #91 on: 01 January 2021, 10:50:27 »
=== MODERATOR NOTICE ===

Stop threadjacking over the punch table discussion, please.  The rules technicality has been brought up and addressed.  We do not need to have that argument in here.

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #92 on: 01 January 2021, 13:19:04 »
Thing about 2N Axman is it was created by the Cartoon show (why with missile launchers with SIX tubes) each is oddity.  I honestly didn't realize they were 6-tube launchers on the shoulder.   I do wonder why they went with launcher over it's autocannon 20.  Less guns on tv? 

https://imgur.com/a/25Bym8e This link of the Cartoon 2N firing.

Anyways, i was playing around with it.  SIX 6 Launcher 2N if you go by see what you get thing, will in fact work.  So does MRM20 & 10 version though i'd go with ladder, since the 20 version has only 12 volleys per launcher.   Its still interesting mech, i wish video games aside from HBS would allow it's use.  Not everything likes being ax these questions.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2021, 13:21:25 by Wrangler »
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #93 on: 01 January 2021, 15:35:45 »
Could have been a number of things as Auto cannons are still very common on the show. Re-watching a few bits and pieces on Renegade HPG channel, some parts are actual thought out (not many but a few) so someone may have noted a mech using indirect fire with other LRM equip mechs may have a better chance against Clanners vs getting into AC/20 rang. Could have also been a case of "So, there is no way we can use the Archer... we can use the Crusader ether... you know why. Look, here is a list of what we can use, pick whatever you think looks cool... yeah, but that's not a missile launcher on it's shoulder... I mean, I guess it could have a missile launcher... alright, you now have a Axman with missile for the show."       
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #94 on: 01 January 2021, 15:49:00 »
Well, i'm going post variants. It's been ages since i did. 
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #95 on: 01 January 2021, 16:32:42 »
Thing about 2N Axman is it was created by the Cartoon show (why with missile launchers with SIX tubes) each is oddity.  I honestly didn't realize they were 6-tube launchers on the shoulder.   I do wonder why they went with launcher over it's autocannon 20.  Less guns on tv? 

I'm guessing that it was for the action figure.  Spring-fired missiles on each shoulder looks cooler than one cannon.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12027
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #96 on: 01 January 2021, 16:51:21 »
honestly i'm surprised FASA made them LRM's given that we rarely see anyone in the show engage at outside SRM range.

i guess they took the quick and easy route of LRM's to avoid having to figure out to do with all the weight replacing an AC20 with a pair of SRM6's would free up.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2021, 16:53:08 by glitterboy2098 »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25820
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #97 on: 01 January 2021, 18:53:20 »
Yeah, it's a much easier conversion.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Cyc

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2732
    • CycKath at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #98 on: 02 January 2021, 07:34:06 »
Inversion of current discussion/annoyance with BattleTech: Legends, given the cartoon making the 2N variant popular , why wasn't the Kickstarter rework of the Axman built with it in mind?

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9592
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #99 on: 02 January 2021, 07:57:35 »
The popularity of the 2N outside of the cartoon is questionable. I'm sure fans would have demanded a new 2N if one was wanted, it's how we ended up with the current line up.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13083
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Mech of the week: Axman
« Reply #100 on: 08 January 2021, 23:15:40 »
i guess they took the quick and easy route of LRM's to avoid having to figure out to do with all the weight replacing an AC20 with a pair of SRM6's would free up.
Easy, make it quad 6's
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo