Naval Pictures III: Splice The Main Brace!

[marauder648]

She's apparently actively supporting operations in Syria and yes, this is the 1st time they've ever used her offensively.

[JadeHellbringer]

Is the Admiral Kuznetsov actively used support operations in Syria? Is this first time they've used their carrier for offensive like this?

They're certainly attempting to. I'm not sure I'd say it's successful in that task, but it's at least attempting operations. And yes, to my knowledge it's the first time the ship has been on a combat deployment.

[Weirdo]

Honestly, this being her first fight doesn't actually surprise me all that much. Unless you're from a nation that's been involved in the War on Terror for the past 15 years or so, there really hasn't been much lately that called for a warship's intervention, much less a carrier.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons for deployment was that the Russians wanted to make sure they got at least one combat deployment out of her, and aren't certain any other such situations will arise before she has to be decommissioned.

[worktroll]

A great opportunity for "lessons learnt", then.

[Weirdo]

Very true. Everyone else who has one is using their Kuznetsov to build a list of Do Nots, why shouldn't they?

[worktroll]

So is this class by definition one of the finest training ships in history?

[Weirdo]

Only in situations where Training Ship = Cautionary Tale.

[worktroll]

Learn from other people's mistakes, I say ...

[ColBosch]

The best training of all: that you don't have to pay for.

[Fat Guy]

The Chinese have got to be having buyer's remorse with the Varyag/Liaoning. Even worse because their version of the Su-33 (the J-15) is heavier and uses much less efficient engines.

[Daryk]

Not strictly naval, but if anyone is ever in the Boston area.  Get a little ways out to the Essex shipbuilding museum.  A wooden shipyard that still works, and they let you walk around it! It's not very active, not a lot of call for new wooden hulls but is keeping the skills alive.

Speaking of museums, for our European posters, the Naval museum in Venice (Italy) is small, but pretty neat.

[Weirdo]

The Chinese have got to be having buyer's remorse with the Varyag/Liaoning. Even worse because their version of the Su-33 (the J-15) is heavier and uses much less efficient engines.

As I understand, Liaoning was never expected to be a fully operational carrier. They'll sail get around, but she's purely meant as a learning experience to teach all levels of their navy what carrier ops are like, and the lessons they learn will get incorporated into the homebrew carrier they're currently constructing.

[JadeHellbringer]

As I understand, Liaoning was never expected to be a fully operational carrier. They'll sail get around, but she's purely meant as a learning experience to teach all levels of their navy what carrier ops are like, and the lessons they learn will get incorporated into the homebrew carrier they're currently constructing.

Side note, man did China get away with murder on the sale of that ship. It's actually pretty funny when you look at the deal. "Sure, we'll sell it for basically scrap value, so long as you promise to never turn it into an actual live aircraft carrier. Your deal to turn it into a hotel/casino is fine, yeah. Thank you for your payment, here's your ship to tow, and... wait a minute. Crap."

[Weirdo]

Kinda surprised the Russians cared what happened to it. Eh, it was before I really paid attention to such things, so I'll assume there was something else going on factoring into that.

On a similar note, whatever happened to that deal with Russia buying some Mistrals? Kept hearing it was pending and controversial, and then nothing.

[JadeHellbringer]

Kinda surprised the Russians cared what happened to it. Eh, it was before I really paid attention to such things, so I'll assume there was something else going on factoring into that.

Basically, they got swindled. Whether or not they ever had plans to complete the ship is debatable, but they were very clear about selling it under the condition that it never operate as a warship. Previous deals for carrier-turned-hotel deals for a pair of Kiev-class ships turned out fine, and so the assumption was that Varyag (her Russian name) would be more of the same. It then caused some shock to the Russians (and no one else) when the ship got an engine overhaul and such, because China gambled that once the ship was in their hands Russia wouldn't have much to say or do about the situation. Rule 4 looms large here, but basically China said one thing and did something completely different once it was too late to do anything about it.

That said, there's SOME legal standing here. Liaoning is an aircraft carrier, no question, but an operational warship... something of a grey area. The plan is to use this ship as a test bed for how to run a carrier, so that the two they want to build will go into service with experienced pilots and deck crews who learned on the Liaoning. (The same setup proved useful nearly a century ago, as experienced personnel transferred from USS Langley (CV-1) to the new Lexington and Saratoga, giving those two ships a boost in their operational efficiency the day they ran their commissioning pennants up. Liaoning can be viewed the same way- whether useful or not as a carrier, she'll provide a lot of experience to be transferred to the new ships someday).

Of course, the difference between a training carrier and a real warship is whether those Sukhois have ordnance under the wings or not, which makes the whole thing very murky.

EDIT: Wall-o-text posts suck, so I'll offer apologies with a view of the bow of Liaoning to go with it.

[marauder648]

We need more warships!










The last one is the SMS Seedler, the last raiding ship of her kind.

[Dragon Cat]

I agree... not quite a Warship, or really a ship that could ever sail if I'm honest but that it looks cool

[glitterboy2098]

Basically, they got swindled. Whether or not they ever had plans to complete the ship is debatable, but they were very clear about selling it under the condition that it never operate as a warship. Previous deals for carrier-turned-hotel deals for a pair of Kiev-class ships turned out fine, and so the assumption was that Varyag (her Russian name) would be more of the same. It then caused some shock to the Russians (and no one else) when the ship got an engine overhaul and such, because China gambled that once the ship was in their hands Russia wouldn't have much to say or do about the situation. Rule 4 looms large here, but basically China said one thing and did something completely different once it was too late to do anything about it.

That said, there's SOME legal standing here. Liaoning is an aircraft carrier, no question, but an operational warship... something of a grey area. The plan is to use this ship as a test bed for how to run a carrier, so that the two they want to build will go into service with experienced pilots and deck crews who learned on the Liaoning. (The same setup proved useful nearly a century ago, as experienced personnel transferred from USS Langley (CV-1) to the new Lexington and Saratoga, giving those two ships a boost in their operational efficiency the day they ran their commissioning pennants up. Liaoning can be viewed the same way- whether useful or not as a carrier, she'll provide a lot of experience to be transferred to the new ships someday).

Of course, the difference between a training carrier and a real warship is whether those Sukhois have ordnance under the wings or not, which makes the whole thing very murky.

EDIT: Wall-o-text posts suck, so I'll offer apologies with a view of the bow of Liaoning to go with it.

a point of note however.. the seller of the Varyag was not russia but the Ukraine, as this all occurred well after that nation's split from russia/the old USSR. Ukraine had inherited the incomplete (and yet still aging) ship when they obtained independence and had immediately started looking for people to buy the thing since it was just taking up dockyard space.

otherwise yeah, Ukraine sold the ship to a businessman that had said he wanted to convert it to civilian use, but who then handed it over to the chinese military who (extensively) rebuilt it into a functional carrier.

i agree that they picked it up to get experience on carriers.. they are build two of their own (larger) design already, which they will be able to use without the legal limbo of the Liaoning. it will be interesting to see what their homegrown designs look like, right now they are just basic keels and they're taking their time building them, probably so they won't get locked into a specific flight deck plan before their experiments with the Liaoning complete.

[Wrangler]

I can picture the Liaoning to continue after the full aircraft carriers China are building enter service as a training carrier.

Like the Gray Lady herself, USS Lexington.

[Weirdo]

I'm confused. Are you saying that the training carrier will become a training carrier when the next two enter service? What is this training carrier doing right now, then? ???

Also, want the Lexington a true combat ship in her heyday? If so, there's no real comparison to Liaoning.

[JadeHellbringer]

I'm confused. Are you saying that the training carrier will become a training carrier when the next two enter service? What is this training carrier doing right now, then? ???

Also, want the Lexington a true combat ship in her heyday? If so, there's no real comparison to Liaoning.

I think what he's saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that she'll transition to a full-time training role when the new ones start coming online, and until then she's a training ship with teeth- in the event that the Chinese navy has a scuffle with the Vietnamese or Philippine fleets, Liaoning gives them an enormous advantage. So for now she's a trainer with combat capabilities, whereas she'd likely be made second-line once better ships are available.

(Lexington, meanwhile, was indeed a frontline combat ship in her day, a veteran of some of the latter half of the Pacific War's toughest battles. Her retirement is one that she earned the hard way.)

[Wrangler]

I'm confused. Are you saying that the training carrier will become a training carrier when the next two enter service? What is this training carrier doing right now, then? ???

Also, want the Lexington a true combat ship in her heyday? If so, there's no real comparison to Liaoning.

Sorry, i didn't mean sound bit jumbled up.

I still think the Liaoning is a combat ship, The Chinese naval air force of PLAN is still practicing from her, but i don't think Liaoning is hamstrung in that role.  The civilian intelligence community thought for many years that this ship was going be dismantled and experimented on for construction uses.  Yet she out at sea strutting her stuff with her jet compliment practicing.  I believe it could be still could be used as a combat ship if Chinese were in a tough situation , where air power from a airbase could not be utilized. Chinese have up to this point have been a coastal dependent navy until recently. Liaoning's Russian sister ship certainly is being used for the combat role, despite her having teething issues after decades of service.

However, a better design ship will be coming around the bend and replace her in a combat role. Chinese dumped alot money into getting the ship fully operational enough to launch planes. Given she was hulk of a ship when they got her and she aged.  To make her into dedicated Training ship (like Hellbie added, thanks man.) which could fill in the role.

The Lexington was certainly a combat ship, and in her later years was a training ship that stubbornly stuck around until the 1990s. 

[glitterboy2098]

Basically Liaoning is a testbed platform for figuring out how to operate a carrier best (with the stuff learned going to getting their homebuilt ships set up properly) and a training vessel for training crew, deckhands, and pilots.

When the two homebuilt designs launch, Liaoning will shift to being a training ship primarily, perhaps also serving as the test bed for experimental systems at times.

[Kidd]

Liaoning is indeed a training carrier with teeth, inasmuch as one ought also call the coming QE2 a training carrier with teeth. Well, perhaps moreso considering it is China's first foray into naval aviation whereas UK is "merely" relearning.

The next China carrier is also a training carrier, but in the sense of a how-to-build-a-carrier trainer and subsequently will probably be like Liaoning used as a platform for developing naval air as well as a fleet asset, before the Chinese get really serious with Carrier Number Three (!). Think of Number Two and Liaoning like the USS Ranger (CV-4) to the USS Lexington and Saratoga - first of their kind, but they did their part in battle didn't they?

Word is that the businessman who bought Varyag did so bona fide but was given an offer he couldn't refuse. Said deal supposedly broke him financially.... but thats enough of that.

Here's the next Chinese carrier.

[Weirdo]

Sticking with the ski jump, it seems. I know CATOBAR systems are expensive and complex, but is there any word on them working on planes that won't be operationally hobbled like the -33s are?

[Wrangler]

wow, i didn't know she was that far along.  She certainly looks like she has a wider Sky Jump.
I'd imagine she overall is wider.  It would be funny if the Russian decide to order their next carrier from the Chinese until they get their domestic venture going.

[Weirdo]

The yellow cables wrapped around the jump make it like they just glued that section of deck down to the hull, and are letting the glue dry overnight. :)

[Kidd]

It will be both (!) CATOBAR and ski jump, so still very much an experimental duck. Carrier Three however will not only be CATOBAR, it is may be EMALS catapult as well. The Chinese have built/are building both steam and EMALS catapult land-based training facilities. Likely they will conduct testing and decide which one to build Carrier Three as based on that... not to mention closely scrutinising reports on USS Ford's performance.

Like the Gray Lady herself, USS Lexington.

Wrong Lexington I'm afraid. You're thinking of USS Lexington CV-2, not CV-16; she was the 2nd ever US carrier but still also a conversion from an original battleship design. She was lost at the Battle of the Coral Sea, though she helped sink the Shokaku.



The 2-ship Lexington class was followed by USS Ranger CV-4, the first US carrier designed and built as such.


And to round off, in the tradition of big military equipment taking showers here's Liaoning again:

[JadeHellbringer]

Wrangler may have meant that Lexington, actually- after retiring from active service, she was used as a training carrier for many years in the Gulf of Mexico, where she remains today as a museum ship.

[Kidd]

Wrangler may have meant that Lexington, actually- after retiring from active service, she was used as a training carrier for many years in the Gulf of Mexico, where she remains today as a museum ship.

Oh. I was thinking of Liaoning more as Lexington CV-2, very much an artifact of early US naval air, probably like Langley CV-1 intended as an experiment and for training, but capable enough to dish out the hurt when needed.