Author Topic: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired  (Read 52521 times)

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #60 on: 22 January 2017, 02:57:52 »
I was trying to be too clever in pre-empting questions (what if they bring up sprinting?  I know: I'll mention that too!) to remember that you can't attack while sprinting.  In the interests of preventing confusion and cutting text, I'll delete that part.
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Nicolai_Malthus

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #61 on: 22 January 2017, 03:32:17 »
I didn't notice any of these being reported, so here goes:

Page 19: Careful Stand-paragraph. "If the mech had more than 2 Walking mp available, the piloting skill roll applies a -2 target modifier. This modifier is not applied if the mech had less than two Walking mp available."

As written, this implies there is some third game effect if the mech in fact has 2 Walking mp (since the other two factors say "more than" and "less than". The latter sentence should say something like "The modified is not applied if the mech had two or less Walking mp available."


Page 47: Engine Explosions, Water-paragraph. The wording in the paragraph is a little unclear, since the term "Target" is used for both the exploding mech and any mechs/units within the explosion's radius.

A suggested rewording would be: "If the target is not in a water hex and an adjacent hex is a water hex, no damage is applied to completely sumberged units in that adjacent hex." This I think would reduce any possible confusion.
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Nicolai_Malthus

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #62 on: 22 January 2017, 07:43:48 »
Page 48, Hand Actuator: Underneath the Target Number Modifiers paragraph, a Missing Actuators paragraph similar to the one under Lower Arm Actuator should be included, covering the rules for missing Hand Actuators.


Page 58, Head Hits-paragraph: Add a paragraph that clarifies that mechs with torso-mounted cockpits exempt Mechwarriors from the 1 Point of damage from head hits.


Page 69, Skidding Diagram 1, The unit in 2A: Incorrect rules. The text says "Of course a charging resolution doesn't need to be resolved at this Point because the traget 'Mech has not yet moved in this Movement Phase and so automatically avoids the skidding Phoenix Hawk." If the unit in hex 2A were a Protomech this would be true, but the unit in this example is a 'mech. Mechs always need to make a PSR to avoid the Accidental Charge. In fact, the next rules example as the skidding mech enters hex 2B illustrates this.
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #63 on: 22 January 2017, 11:20:58 »
I forget exactly which ones, but there are units whose unique abilities allow them to fire while sprinting. I can only assume this was meant to cover those cases.

I was trying to be too clever in pre-empting questions (what if they bring up sprinting?  I know: I'll mention that too!) to remember that you can't attack while sprinting.  In the interests of preventing confusion and cutting text, I'll delete that part.

Well, in the Combat Manuals and in Conjunction with the Campaign operations (while More Alpha Strike than BattleTech) but it does bridge Alpha Strike Lance & Company abilities with BattleTech, there is a Company Ability called Gun It, I've yet to find a true non-AS ability like it, but, there you are.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #64 on: 22 January 2017, 11:32:16 »
Some new ones I came across last night while playing (PS this manual is Great for playing as made finding some rules/rulings a LOT easier)

1:

STANDING UP
pg 19

Unlike a lot of the other abilities there is no 'easy' way to find the rules info for this.

Example Physical Attacks have the required PSR & Modifiers immediately after heading.

Additionally, other movement modes (walking, Running, jumping, etc) have the Heat generated listed.

Maybe something like:

STANDING UP:
Pilot Skill Modifier: +0
Heat Generated: 1 per attempt
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NeonKnight

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #65 on: 22 January 2017, 11:35:36 »
Another one from Last Night:

HEAVY FOG:

Table on Page 17 lists heavy Fog's Movement Modifier as +1 (same as light fog)

Text Entry on Page 62 states Heavy Fog has a +2 MP modifier.

Table on Page 17 should be corrected to +2
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #66 on: 22 January 2017, 19:14:30 »
Savage Coyote

Not sure why this 'Mech has the "Ubiquitous" quirk; it's used by one homeworld Clan and isn't introduced until 3059. That hardly fits the description of "Ubiquitous"
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #67 on: 22 January 2017, 19:56:38 »
More quirks:

-Marauder: Cramped Cockpit or Rumble Seat.  Cramped Cockpit because of the MAD-4X fluff and Rumble Seat because of Lori Kalmar riding with Grayson Carlyle.
-Shadow Hawk - Rumble Seat - Same as above, Lori and Grayson
-Zeus - Rumble Seat (has one for the 6Y Zeus)

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #68 on: 22 January 2017, 20:50:10 »
Savage Coyote

Not sure why this 'Mech has the "Ubiquitous" quirk; it's used by one homeworld Clan and isn't introduced until 3059. That hardly fits the description of "Ubiquitous"
Because by the IC printing date of 3067, the Coyotes had a ton of them, but so did the rest of the Clans. IIRC, the Savage Coyote got the quirk during the early iteration of the quirk itself, where it was broadly "fluff indicates there's a lot of these things."

More quirks:

-Marauder: Cramped Cockpit or Rumble Seat.  Cramped Cockpit because of the MAD-4X fluff and Rumble Seat because of Lori Kalmar riding with Grayson Carlyle.
-Shadow Hawk - Rumble Seat - Same as above, Lori and Grayson
-Zeus - Rumble Seat (has one for the 6Y Zeus)
I'm incredibly hesitant about porting over quirks from XTRO units, since those might be quirks belonging to just the model in the entry, rather than the line as a whole. The MAD-4X is a custom rebuild, thus the Cramped Cockpit. As for Rumble Seat for it and the Shadow Hawk, the Unseen are starting to get loaded down a shedload of quirks, to the point that if we add Rumble Seat and Directional Torso Mount to the Marauder, it will end up with 7 quirks.

The Zeus 6Y's Rumble Seat may be specific to that one model (Like the Rifleman III having Multi-Trac, for example) that aren't present on others, as I said earlier. Otherwise the Awesome might have Poor Performance, which is just cruel to the old girl.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #69 on: 22 January 2017, 21:02:03 »
So how about Cowl for the Direwolf?
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Alexander Knight

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #70 on: 22 January 2017, 21:05:29 »
The MAD-4X has cramped cockpit specifically because of the shoehorned in combat computer.  House Marik techs couldn't fir it in without making a lot of compromises.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #71 on: 22 January 2017, 21:12:50 »
So how about Cowl for the Direwolf?
The 4 point Cowl appears only on Victor Steiner-Davion's Daishi, sorry. O0 I've been thinking about Improved Targeting (Long) though.

 And if I was going whole hog with goofy quirks for customs, well... I've got a Masakari for an Against the Bot game that has well, 19 of them. And a pilot with over 700 kills.


cavingjan

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #72 on: 22 January 2017, 21:32:12 »
Because by the IC printing date of 3067, the Coyotes had a ton of them, but so did the rest of the Clans. IIRC, the Savage Coyote got the quirk during the early iteration of the quirk itself, where it was broadly "fluff indicates there's a lot of these things."

We couldn't even justify more than 4 clans having access to the Savage Coyote for the MUL. That quirk should probably be changed.

Anubis: We have 3 of the 7 Anubis already having quirks that do not match the quirks here. The arms really can't reverse but the art from 3067 does show it torso twisting about 90 degrees instead of the typical 60 degrees. I would suggest switching the hyperextending quirk for the torso twist on.

cavingjan

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #73 on: 22 January 2017, 21:34:11 »
pg 28 Stealth armor does not give a +1 at short range. (If that change is intentional then it needs to be fixed in the description later.)

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #74 on: 23 January 2017, 00:19:31 »
Okay, I think I'm caught up on errata and suggestions.  These have been very helpful and very appreciated: please keep adding things here as you spot them.

I have a couple of items for the thread.  Both are related to skidding, as I had to rewrite the examples to take into account the fact that part of it was not accurate, as Nicolai_Malthus helpfully pointed out.

First, there's this part of the example (BMM p. 69):
Quote
This damage is applied before the controller of the enemy ’Mech makes its Piloting Skill Roll to dodge the skidding Phoenix Hawk, because if the falling and skidding damage destroys the Phoenix Hawk, then the charge would not occur and the dodging enemy ’Mech would still be able to move normally this turn. The enemy ’Mech’s controller, however, rolls a 3, which means it failed to dodge. In addition, because it has now moved, it cannot move again later in the Movement Phase.

The example originally appears in TW p. 65.  But where does it actually say that a dodging mech cannot move later in the turn in the rules?  I don't see it in either TW or the Manual under skidding, or under displacement.  Am I missing something, or does the example describe a situation that the rules do not actually cover?

I'll get to the second item after I figure out this.


EDIT: Hah, I see I missed the "Avoiding a Collision" subsection in TW when creating the chapter for the Manual.  Problem 1 solved.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2017, 00:33:05 by Xotl »
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #75 on: 23 January 2017, 01:41:08 »
Open Beta
pp41-... Damage Resolution
I probably found a situation not covered by the damage resolution process, or, at least, not so clear. Imagine the situation:

HMH-3D has no armor left on its Right Arm. It also has only 7 internal structure left in this location, but the AC/10 ammo bin is untouched and has a full ton of ammo in it. Right Torso has only 2 armor left and untouched internal structure and equipment in that location (including another AC/10 ammo bin with ammo in it).

Right Arm is hit by HPPC "man-made lightning", which destroys the location and has 8 remaining damage. Now assume that the critical hit was rolled up and it fell on the ammo bin.

How the damage should be resolved starting from this point? Especially considering, that whichever damage transfers first, it can cause further critical hits in the Right Torso and even another ammunition explosion.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #76 on: 23 January 2017, 09:32:40 »
I'm incredibly hesitant about porting over quirks from XTRO units, since those might be quirks belonging to just the model in the entry, rather than the line as a whole. The MAD-4X is a custom rebuild, thus the Cramped Cockpit. As for Rumble Seat for it and the Shadow Hawk, the Unseen are starting to get loaded down a shedload of quirks, to the point that if we add Rumble Seat and Directional Torso Mount to the Marauder, it will end up with 7 quirks.

The Zeus 6Y's Rumble Seat may be specific to that one model (Like the Rifleman III having Multi-Trac, for example) that aren't present on others, as I said earlier. Otherwise the Awesome might have Poor Performance, which is just cruel to the old girl.

Fair enough, Jysmet suggested I recommend these no matter which way.  I figured a good chunk of them may be ignored.

The fact that the 6Y was an actual production model and that the 6Y art has a similar enough cockpit to the original 6S that I felt it warranted suggestion.  You are more than welcome to ignore my suggestions :)
« Last Edit: 23 January 2017, 09:34:28 by Stinger »

Nicolai_Malthus

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #77 on: 23 January 2017, 11:07:37 »
Glad to be of help, Xotl! I've spotted another couple of entries in the book that need fixing.

Page 71, Levels, second paragraph: "If the level of the hex to be entered is one level lower than the level of the skidding ’Mech’s current hex, the level change has no effect on the skid. If the level is one or two levels lower, the change has no additional effect on the skid." Not really an error, but the first sentence becomes kind of redundant.


Page 72, Combat within buildings, second paragraph: "Unlike standard combat, ’Mechs in the same building hex (and even at the same level in the same hex) can attack one another." Two mechs at the same level in the same level in the same hex would violate stacking limits, I believe.


Page 72, Building Combat Diagram-sidebar: Here's another example that first appeared in TW (p.176). As written, the target number modifiers for the attack on the Warhammer and the Locust are incorrect (the Warhammer in the example is at short range, for example). The example with the Wolverine is correct, however.


Page 73, Collapse: Movement-sidebar: Another example from TW that needs some rewording (TW p.177). In the MM sidebar, hexes D and E have a CF of 8, but in the hex collapse section the CF is listed as 7. In the TW example, the mech collapsing the two hexes was a Marauder, but in MM it is an Archer. For the example to work, the CF should be changed to 7.


Page 74, Collapse: Building Collapse-sidebar, second paragraph. The Archer is at one point listed as doing a base damage of 0.7, only to have a base damage of 0.8 later in the same paragraph. The base damage should be 0.7.
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #78 on: 23 January 2017, 11:17:37 »
Not sure if it has been addressed...

page 142, Negative Quirk Table, Exposed Weapon Linkage: When the location that holds the weapon is hit, roll 2D6.  On a 10+, that weapon is unable.

I feel like something should follow "is unable".
« Last Edit: 23 January 2017, 11:35:00 by ActionButler »
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #79 on: 23 January 2017, 11:31:46 »
Fair enough, Jysmet suggested I recommend these no matter which way.  I figured a good chunk of them may be ignored.

The fact that the 6Y was an actual production model and that the 6Y art has a similar enough cockpit to the original 6S that I felt it warranted suggestion.  You are more than welcome to ignore my suggestions :)
Not ignoring them at all, just giving my rationale for some of the quirks in this initial list. I've already made changes to several designs based off the thread, and I'm sure CGL will have more changes as more feedback comes in. So keep submitting stuff, it's always good to quadruple and sextuple check.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #80 on: 23 January 2017, 11:39:41 »
Also, not an error, but something inconsistent...

page 142, Negative Quirk Table, No Torso Twist: A 'Mech with the quirk cannot torso twist.

That is the only entry that I can find that uses the words "A 'Mech with this quirk" rather than just saying "'Mech can/cannot..."
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #81 on: 25 January 2017, 16:18:21 »
OK, found an error/ommision in the book. Please bear with me, as this was the order process I found the ommision.

Under PUSH ATTACKS, page 40, it states a successful push attack moves the defending 'Mech into the adjecent hex in the direction it was pushed. Later in that section it refers us to Displacement, page 55.

Page 55, under Displacement states:

'Mechs can be displaced downward any number of levels, though this results in an accidental fall (see page 57).

And there the trail ends.

Page 57, has rules for Accidental Falls from above, which covers what happens if a 'Mech is pushed from a higher level into a hex containing another 'Mech, but says nothing on what happens if the hex is empty.

Sadly, checking TW, it appears the rules are identical, which then leads me to ask:

What happens to a 'Mech pushed 1 level lower into an empty hex? Does it automatically fall? Does it make a PSR to avoid falling? If so, does it apply a penalty to it's roll?
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #82 on: 25 January 2017, 17:51:37 »
A query
On page 85, the Quirk "Stabilized Weapons" we get this line
Quote
are better cushioned against or otherwise compensated
for the increased inaccuracy caused by moving at high speeds. If the
’Mech runs (or sprints, if using the optional Sprinting rules; see p. 15)
all Target Numbers for that weapon receive a –1 modifier.

The query is about the highlighted part, It seems to suggest that you could attack while sprinting. Now on Page 15, the rules on Sprinting states units that sprint may not attack (though can fire weapons to make heat), so it's a bit odd to see a reference that seems to indicate that one could attack while sprinting. I would assume the rule is correct?


As for quirk assignment dose not the fluff for the Loki (Hellbringer) mention that it is an electronics marvel? so improved sensors seem to a good idea.

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #83 on: 25 January 2017, 18:14:39 »
Nebfer: yes, that is an error.  It will be corrected for the final, thanks.
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CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #84 on: 25 January 2017, 18:45:14 »
'Mechs can be displaced downward any number of levels, though this results in an accidental fall (see page 57).
That's, probably, a misleading statement. Suggestion to correct as following:

'Mechs can be displaced into a hex with any level lower than the level of the hex the 'Mech occupied before the displacement (see the rules for the special cases below). If the hex the 'Mech is entering is two or more levels lower, then the 'Mech falls the number of levels equal to the difference of between the level previous hex it occupied and the level of the hex it entered plus one. It stays in the hex it entered in the case, if this hex was not occupied by any other unit. Otherwise, the 'Mech commits an Accidental Fall From Above (see Accidental  Falls From Above, p.57). If the hex the 'Mech is entering the less than two levels lower and does not contain any other units, then the 'Mech may or may not fall depending on the particular cause of the displacement (see the description of the cause for the conditions). If the hex the 'Mech is entering the less than two levels lower and contains another unit, then the entering 'Mech causes the Domino Effect (see Domino Effect, p.55).


(Now, there's a question: what happens if the 'Mech falls on the building, instead of being charged into it? Battletech is fun, there's always some situation, that the rules never considered.)

Page 57, has rules for Accidental Falls from above, which covers what happens if a 'Mech is pushed from a higher level into a hex containing another 'Mech, but says nothing on what happens if the hex is empty.
Well, it was implied that the 'Mech simply falls the appropriate number of levels and stays in the hex it was displaced into. Though, it is worth mentioning this somewhere, like I did above.

What happens to a 'Mech pushed 1 level lower into an empty hex? Does it automatically fall? Does it make a PSR to avoid falling? If so, does it apply a penalty to it's roll?
Again, see my suggestion above.

EDIT: If we allow other units, other than 'Mechs, the wording should be changed.
« Last Edit: 25 January 2017, 19:15:02 by CrazyGrasshopper »

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #85 on: 25 January 2017, 19:06:22 »
As for quirk assignment dose not the fluff for the Loki (Hellbringer) mention that it is an electronics marvel? so improved sensors seem to a good idea.

The write up specifically mentions the primary config in that case, so I would guess they're referring to the five tons of gear mounted in there and not inherently the Hellbringer design itself.

CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #86 on: 25 January 2017, 19:12:19 »
Open Beta
p.82 HIDDEN ’MECHS and POINT-BLANK SHOTS
If a ’Mech attempts to enter a hex containing a hidden ’Mech, the ’Mech attempting to enter the hex containing a hidden ’Mech immediately ends its movement before moving into that hex. However, if a ’Mech enters the hex containing a hidden ’Mech via either the Dropping ’Mechs rule (see p. 79), or an accidental fall from above (see p. 57), use the Displacement rule (see p. 55).
Later in P-B shots section:
However, the ’Mech that was attacked may continue as normal, after resolving all damage dealt by the attack, taking into account the normal stacking rules now that an enemy ’Mech is in the hex in question.

Two issues:
1. Under the current ruling, the mention of the normal stacking rules is redundant, since if the 'Mech tried to enter a hex with a hidden unit, it had to end its movement. If it did not have to end its movement, then it was not entering the hex with the hidden unit to begin with and was passing through the adjacent hex.

What can be mentioned, though, is whether the 'Mech has to continue to move along its previously intended path (with, possibly, corrected MP) after it was shot at. Or can it change its path in reaction to the revealed hidden unit?

2. The hex containing a hidden unit can be entered by another unit unintentionally through skidding, sideslipping (exotics, I admit) or jumping (this one can happen). In all these cases the entering unit cannot stop its movement. In the case of both the hidden and the entering units being 'Mechs we have the stacking rules violation without any rules to resolve the situation. It's also not clear how the Point-Blank should be handled in this situation (the case of jumping being the most quirky, others two can be reasonably ruled out).

CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #87 on: 25 January 2017, 19:43:19 »
As not an errata, but a feedback on the quirks:

While the quirks are optional, I think that the canon quirks that are assigned to a design should be the quirks that the players would find the most fitting the design and would want to keep them regardless of them being positive or negative. This inevitably means, that the quirks should not be overpowering, and a bit of balance should be kept in mind. Unfortunately, as we all know 2d6 is a bit on the number of outcomes, and +/-1 modifier is a big difference.

Thus, while I find such quirk as Variable Range Targeting passable, as it seems self-balanced, such quirks as Improved Targeting and Narrow/Low Profile are a big boon and the quirk list is way too heavy on them.

I suggest to restrict the quirk Narrow/Low Profile to light weight class. Getting some lights a bit of free survivability is not a bad thing. Meanwhile, the 100-ton Marauder II having such quirk is not reasonable even judged on the quirk description. Even if it is low for a 100-tonner, it is still a 100-tonner. If the armor plates shape and placement is the reason for such quirk, then it probably needs some other quirk with different (less favorable) rules, based on the reason in mind.

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #88 on: 25 January 2017, 23:10:06 »
Let's see.  Regarding the displacement and accidental fall issue, does the following close all the needed gaps?

Page 57, replace the entire initial "Accidental Falls from Above" section with the following:

ACCIDENTAL FALLS FROM ABOVE
     An accidental fall from above occurs when a ’Mech is displaced by a charge, push, or death from above attack, or as a result of another accidental fall from above or the domino effect (see p. 55). A ’Mech may not intentionally fall from above.
     If the hex the ’Mech is moved into is empty, then treat this as a regular fall.
     If the hex the ’Mech is moved into contains another ’Mech, and the hex it is entering is 1 or 0 levels lower than the hex from which it was displaced, a domino effect occurs (see p. 55).
     If the hex the ’Mech is moved into contains another ’Mech, and is two levels or more lower than the hex from which it was displaced, then the ’Mech already in the hex might be struck by the falling ’Mech. Make an attack roll with a base Target Number of 7, modified by target movement and terrain.

If it does, I have a question about this.  How does a mech fall both 0 levels and on top of something, as indicated in the third para there?
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #89 on: 25 January 2017, 23:45:23 »
Regarding the EM Interference quirk, specifically the following section

Alternatively, this quirk can be purchased for the ’Mech itself, in which case the problem is with the ’Mech’s electronics in general, rather than its interaction with any specific weapon. The cost for this version of the quirk is the same.

It is not entirely clear what this passage means. Is it supposed to mean that the electronics just don't work? And if so, wouldn't that already be covered (at a significant rebate in points) by the non-functional item quirk? Or alternately, was there supposed to be a specific trigger (such as using two systems at once or taking damage) that was left out?
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!