Author Topic: VotW: Scorpion  (Read 33210 times)

JadeHellbringer

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VotW: Scorpion
« on: 14 April 2017, 13:24:02 »

"Hey, at least it isn't a J-27, right? Hah ha hah... god, I need a drink."

A quick return to the vehicle stomping grounds, brought upon by a thread discussing the Scorpion tank vs. the Scorpion Battlemech. The discussion got me thinking about the tank, and when I looked I realized that there's no article about it here (the previous one appears to have been lost to time). How hard can it be to look in and run down this thing on a Friday afternoon? (There's still not enough material to bring this column back full-time, but how does one resist when THIS is un-discussed?)

The Scorpion is one of those timeless machines that shows up in every non-Clan military out there, including little militias and pirate bands. It's small, cheap as hell, and marginally effective, and that's generally a hallmark of... yep, it's made by Quikscell. The plan was to make a small 'conventional' tank, and in that regard this may be the most 'real world' looking of any combat vehicle in Battletech (along with the Hetzer, of course), with a low-slung body and square-cornered, flat turret on top. There's nothing remarkable or attention-grabbing in the looks of the Scorpion (see above), and that's intriguing in and of itself. In a universe of odd-looking units like the Turhan or Rhino, this is a sight familiar to a 21st-century resident flung a thousand-odd years into the future. (Likely not their biggest concern in that instance, of course)

At 25 tons, the Scorpion is small by tank standards, which of course is unsurprising- if you're building a budget tank, you want to stay small. The larger the vehicle, the larger its engine needs, and thus cost goes up. The speed also needs to be kept in check for the same reason- and as as a result the Scorpion's movement is what one would call average for its day, 4/6. Plenty enough to keep pace with most large Mechs and vehicles (with the usual pavement bonus), but not fast enough that costs go up. Naturally the engine is an ICE system (again, budget), which precludes operating energy weapons without special equipment.

If you buy a budget tank, you have two things in mind in terms of durability. 1) My tank shouldn't be a waste of money, dying from a single hit before it does anything worthwhile, and 2) if it does go down, I don't want to be out a fortune. Scorpions... look, this thing's 25 tons, what do you really want out of it? And yet, for its size a Scorpion is a surprisingly tough customer, able to take a PPC hit anywhere and survive. Four tons of plating (standard, of course) coat the tank in a modest shell, with 16 points on the front and turret, 11 on the sides, and 10 on the rear. That kind of balance tells you a lot- Scorpions are expected to face enemies from all directions, so prepare to take hits anywhere. Considering the usual product from this manufacturer, this is a welcome thing.


"You laugh now, but this thing took work- when it arrived it was nothing but several armor plates, a cannon, instructions in Swedish, and an allen wrench..."

When it comes to weaponry, we keep it simple and 20th-century feeling. The turret features an AC-5, backed by 20 rounds of ammo. Nothing spectacular, or even all that dangerous really, but several Scorpions engaging a target can hit from respectable range and add up pretty quickly. A machine gun in the snout (backed by a half ton of ammo) is enough to cause infantry to worry a bit. There's nothing here to write home about really, but it keeps to the simple, rugged, and cheap nature of the tank- and like so many smaller units, its danger increases exponentially the more of them you have.

As you can imagine, the autocannon's somewhat lacking abilities prompted a number of refits, almost always involving a swap to another main weapon. An LRM version drops both guns to gain an LRM-10 and LRM-5 in the turret, each with their own ton of ammo. This is handier than you might think- while normally using different sized missile racks on the same unit is a sin (see: Thor E), here the 10-rack provides firepower while the 5-rack can supply things like smoke or (in later years) minefields. I'm a fan of this for a cheap little bombardment unit with a few tricks up its sleeve. A full ton of extra armor, spread across the tank, finishes this handy little unit.

Somewhat less effective (but still plenty handy) is a version packing two medium lasers in the turret. This required heat sinks and power converters, and increases costs as a result. The lasers each hit as hard as the old AC, but with drastically reduced range- if that's okay for your uses, such as in an urban area, this may not be a bad idea. The nose-mounted MG remains here, and a one-ton cargo bay allows you to bring a lunch. It's a toss-up between range and power on whether or not this is more useful to your style of play over the standard model.

One of the author's favorite vehicles in all of Battletech is a version that strips the cannon for two SRM-6 racks. That's pretty hefty firepower for its size, and with the SRM's shotgun effect it becomes an excellent (and cheap, did we mention cheap?) way to get motive hits on enemy armor, finish off damaged Battlemechs, make infantry regret getting out of bed, and a number of other handy roles. Even better, three tons of ammunition allow it to lay down fire forever and a day in battlefield terms, and give you the ability to bring in assorted ammunition types like smoke or inferno to make life interesting. This was an unholy nightmare in the old BMRr days, when a single inferno missile could end a Demolisher in one hit, but even under current rules this is a marvelous unit for all your valet needs- tank parking has never been more fun!

In the post-Clan invasion era, a new version cropped up combining newer weapons with the same frugal mindset- MRMs. An MRM-20 is crammed into the turret, Two tons of ammo are plenty for most operations. If you like MRMs this is handy, but you tend to not put good tank crews in a budget tank- which  means aiming a weapon with a built-in handicap to-hit number is going to be a little tough to do for a Scorpion crew. This is best avoided in favor of the other two missile versions, honestly.


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In the Prototypes TRO, we got a couple more versions. Liao has added minesweeping gear to the homely Scorpion (because someone has to clean up all those thrice-damned Thunder munitions after the fight!), backing this handy gear with a pair of LRM-5s in the turret. Three tons of ammo often are mine-clearance missiles (following the theme of the tank), but standard or even more minelaying rounds are just as useful- you have the ammo bay for it, have fun! The MG remains as well, just in case.

The production version of the experiment above keeps the weaponry the same, but switches to a fuel cell engine, and uses the weight savings to use hardened armor. A six ton shell makes for a remarkably tough little minesweeper with a sting of its own to boot, and should be considered over the experimental model if you have the option.

Scorpions show up everywhere- there's likely not a military in the Inner Sphere and Periphery that doesn't have a couple of them at least. And when there's that many, there's likely countless other field bashes and such. What would you do with a Scorpion? refit? Any good tactics? Stories?

Have a good weekend, guys, thanks for visiting again!
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Maelwys

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #1 on: 14 April 2017, 14:03:26 »
There's also a version from TR3085 ONN, which seems to simply replace the AC5 with two LAC2s. Slightly less damage (though slightly longer ammo endurance), but at the same range brackets (minus the minimum range). Two chances to hit eliminates the all or nothing of the AC5.

The Minesweeper variant from XTRO Liao retains the original 3 tons of armor, but adds in a bit of modular armor on the front to give a little added protection, but unlike the hardened armor on the eventual production model in TRO Prototypes, that slows the design down until its destroyed.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #2 on: 14 April 2017, 14:33:42 »
And to think you were talking about not doing more articles just a bit ago...

I've long thought of the Scorpion as a sort of little Vedette, with a very similar role of just being something to fill out ones ranks.  The Scorpion and tanks like it are important in explaining how you can have a world where you've got three tank regements in an RCT and just one mech regiment, and the mechs are the most important.  If half your tanks are Scorpions and Vedettes and such, then it starts to make sense.

I usually use the AV5 variant, just because its iconic. The LRM variant is objectively better, but this tank isn't really about being good.

If I'm actually trying, I'll often hold them back until my mid ranged and/or short ranged units are engaging, then spring them.  For the enemy, its a choice between a long ranged shot at a soft unit that isn't too powerful, or a medium/short ranged shot at a tougher unit, but one with a bit more punch.  You either get a free turn of getting your Grasshoppers and Hunchbacks into range at the expense of a Scorpion or two, or your thin skinned tanks spend their time lobbing AC shells or missiles at the enemy with impunity, evening the odds for those short or medium ranged mechs.

I don't think I've ever used the SRM model, but it does seem like good value for fire power if you can get it into a city or a canyon or some place where you can spring a lovely little ambush.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #3 on: 14 April 2017, 14:44:13 »
There's also a version from TR3085 ONN, which seems to simply replace the AC5 with two LAC2s. Slightly less damage (though slightly longer ammo endurance), but at the same range brackets (minus the minimum range). Two chances to hit eliminates the all or nothing of the AC5.

The Minesweeper variant from XTRO Liao retains the original 3 tons of armor, but adds in a bit of modular armor on the front to give a little added protection, but unlike the hardened armor on the eventual production model in TRO Prototypes, that slows the design down until its destroyed.

I'll update the article later today- I thought I remembered a LAC version, but didn't see it anywhere so figured I dreamed it up. Thanks!


I don't think I've ever used the SRM model, but it does seem like good value for fire power if you can get it into a city or a canyon or some place where you can spring a lovely little ambush.

With three tons of ammo, use smoke rounds for one of those allotments. Make your own cover to advance through. Hell, bring friends- a couple of these is a little worrying, but if they brought along a couple of Manticores or Demolishers...  >:D
« Last Edit: 14 April 2017, 14:46:09 by JadeHellbringer »
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #4 on: 14 April 2017, 20:20:21 »
Scorpions are excellent cheap pickets to show the flag.  Civilians without heavy weapons can't touch them, hostiles with heavy weapons will more than likely take at least two hits to take one out.  The Standard is almost an ideal infantry support tank in the classical British armoured doctrine sense.  This is something designed to advance at the same rate as the infantry it's supporting, proving mobile cover and anti-emplacement firepower to an advance, or strong points on a defensive front in numbers that are significant.  The gun is nothing to write home about, but it can engage infantry far out of the infantry's own range with Flechette ammo, and the MG keeps enemy infantry from closing.

In essence, this is the kind of tank you field when you're not expecting to fight enemy armor, but will do it in a pinch.  It makes an excellent sort of tank for an infantry battalion to keep around just in case, and it's cheap enough that one might just have a couple laying around.  With an intro date after the fall of the Star League, you might not see hundreds of thousands of them, but tens of thousands is practically a guarantee.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #5 on: 14 April 2017, 20:30:18 »
The Scorpion tank is almost the bug mech of combat vehicles. Maybe not as mobile, but Otherwise it's definitely a bug tank. I can't say I really love or hate them. My reaction to fielding one is usually, "well, it was cheaper than a Vedette."

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #6 on: 15 April 2017, 00:09:29 »
When fighting part of a 'campaign' over a few weekends way back in my youth.  I threw two lances of these backed by a pair of Pikes at a Clan recon Star whilst they were busy dealing with a bunch of mediums and lights.

My friend was not amused at the sheer volume of AC fire being lobbed down range at him with nay-thee a care for heat.  He was less amused when one scorpion then bounced an AC-5 round off his Fenris' faceplate :p didn't pen but still :D

Great article Hellbie :) Its a wonderfully simple tank, very user friendly and you can't really go wrong with it.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #7 on: 15 April 2017, 00:18:22 »
OH MY CHEESE, A VOTW!!!
*swoons*

I love this little bugger. As I noted in the Scorpion vs Scorpion thread up in General, I like using the MRM model as a bodyguard, as the limited range and accuracy of the missiles is balanced out by the fact that enemies trying to kill the big tank your protecting will usually get close in order to get under minimums.

Also, how do you know your track is built by the lowest bidder? It's also used by the Jade Falcons. ;D
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Maelwys

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #8 on: 15 April 2017, 01:51:15 »
The SRM Carrier is about 2.5x the BV of the SRM Scorpion IIRC. So while 2-3 Scorpions (SRM) won't net you the same firepower as a SRM Carrier, the Scorpions have about the same amount of armor (That's per Scorpion, not overall), will survive longer, and can be in multiple places. Its not the solid "Ooomph" of the SRM Carrier, but its a pretty good fall back if you don't want to keep all your eggs in one basket.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #9 on: 15 April 2017, 08:56:19 »

Also, how do you know your track is built by the lowest bidder? It's also used by the Jade Falcons. ;D

Begging the question... how utterly vile and dishonorable do you think you have to be as a Clan warrior to get saddled with Scorpion duty? And how does your honor sink that low without being cast out of the Clan in the first place, or relegated to laborer caste? This feels like it should almost take effort to walk that fine of a line.  ;D
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #10 on: 15 April 2017, 09:31:46 »
Begging the question... how utterly vile and dishonorable do you think you have to be as a Clan warrior to get saddled with Scorpion duty? And how does your honor sink that low without being cast out of the Clan in the first place, or relegated to laborer caste? This feels like it should almost take effort to walk that fine of a line.  ;D

Maybe it goes to promoted paramilitary police. After you've solved your 50th case, Columbo style (only the boneheadedness isn't a pretence, and with the "Just one more thing..." moment immediately being followed by a hail of AP Gauss and Flamers) you get a shot at being a real Warrior, on the bottom rung, in a Scorpion that smells like a Solahma barracks.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #11 on: 15 April 2017, 10:08:38 »
I'm having a mental image of a Scorpion Minesweeper crew with Thunder rounds grousing over having to clear their own minefields after the fact, culminating with an argument with an angry Quartermaster.

Quartermaster: That's the fifth ton of mine-clearing ammunition you idiots have used up in as many days!

Scorpion crew: Yes, well, we had to clear the minefields after each engagement -

QM: That's also the fifth ton of Thunder ammo you've used in as many days!

SC: Not our fault the Fedrats are so inconsiderate as to not clear the mines for us with their lives.

*an invoice on CCAF letterhead for five tons of mine-clearing ammunition, plus time and labor appears at the nearest FS consulate days later*
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #12 on: 15 April 2017, 10:27:17 »
Begging the question... how utterly vile and dishonorable do you think you have to be as a Clan warrior to get saddled with Scorpion duty?

In Clan Jade Falcon's case, all you have to be is a Jade Falcon who espouses the Wardens cause... ;)

I recall I used a lance of Scorpions once in a one off scenario, and if I remember correctly, they gave as good as they got.

Also, you know how much I like MML's, JHB, and given the existence of the LRM, MRM, and SRM variants, there almost seems to be a need to create a MML Variant. If you take out the LRM Launchers and Ammo, I believe you can put in either 2 MML-5's or 4 MML-3's with three tons of ammo and the flexibility that goes with it.

And a question to all out there, although it is twice the tonnage and moves faster, but happens to have the same weapon load out, which tank would you rather use, Scorpion or Vedette?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #13 on: 15 April 2017, 10:37:49 »
It's... cheap.
Don't have nowt else to say about it.

Begging the question... how utterly vile and dishonorable do you think you have to be as a Clan warrior to get saddled with Scorpion duty? And how does your honor sink that low without being cast out of the Clan in the first place, or relegated to laborer caste? This feels like it should almost take effort to walk that fine of a line.  ;D
that's straight out solahma duty IMHO

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #14 on: 15 April 2017, 10:53:25 »
The scorpion can be pretty nasty if employed enmass. 5 point hits are fairly respectable even in the 3100's, and while a single scorpion is easy to pop, a full lance (or more!) Focusing its attention on a target means the damage mounts up quicker than you can knock them out.

One of my goals is to one day build my 'iron tide' unit. A reinforced battalion of scorpions, hover APCs, VTOL, conventional fighters, and mechanized infantry that can be fielded for the chill cost of a 3025 light mech company or the BV of a 3025 medium-heavy mech company.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #15 on: 15 April 2017, 15:25:52 »
Begging the question... how utterly vile and dishonorable do you think you have to be as a Clan warrior to get saddled with Scorpion duty? And how does your honor sink that low without being cast out of the Clan in the first place, or relegated to laborer caste? This feels like it should almost take effort to walk that fine of a line.  ;D

Remember, the Falcons have begun allowing the formation of local militias lately. Given how they treat their solahma warriors, the kind of gear weekend warriors are gonna get? Scorpions are their assault-weight units. :)
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #16 on: 15 April 2017, 15:26:47 »
  The fun thing about the Scorpion is that, like many tanks in Battletech, I am pretty sure it is based on a real combat vehicle, in this case the Scorpion CRTV.  The CRTV is an 8 ton British reconnaissance vehicle built in 1973.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #17 on: 15 April 2017, 15:28:11 »
That's the best argument I've ever heard to why they're Juggernauts according to the MUL. ;D
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #18 on: 15 April 2017, 16:13:49 »
The scorpion can be pretty nasty if employed enmass. 5 point hits are fairly respectable even in the 3100's, and while a single scorpion is easy to pop, a full lance (or more!) Focusing its attention on a target means the damage mounts up quicker than you can knock them out.

One of my goals is to one day build my 'iron tide' unit. A reinforced battalion of scorpions, hover APCs, VTOL, conventional fighters, and mechanized infantry that can be fielded for the chill cost of a 3025 light mech company or the BV of a 3025 medium-heavy mech company.

Now, granted BV is deeply imperfect, but just as a way to relate to the other unit of the week, by BV you could get an entire company of standard Scorpions for the price of that silly TSEMP Gyrfalcon.  They're much too different to say which is better or worse, but its interesting to consider, to say the least. 

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #19 on: 15 April 2017, 16:36:45 »
That's the best argument I've ever heard to why they're Juggernauts according to the MUL. ;D

A Juggernaut's role is to take hits.

Think about it. ;D
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #20 on: 15 April 2017, 17:36:01 »
They're zerglings. Poor zerglings to be sure, but zerglings anyway. A heavier juggernaut vehicle would be the ultralisk...

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #21 on: 15 April 2017, 20:33:13 »
Remember, the Falcons have begun allowing the formation of local militias lately. Given how they treat their solahma warriors, the kind of gear weekend warriors are gonna get? Scorpions are their assault-weight units. :)

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #22 on: 15 April 2017, 20:39:00 »
Now, granted BV is deeply imperfect, but just as a way to relate to the other unit of the week, by BV you could get an entire company of standard Scorpions for the price of that silly TSEMP Gyrfalcon.  They're much too different to say which is better or worse, but its interesting to consider, to say the least. 

"I bid a fairly representative star of modern Falcon mechs, and we shall defeat you by yelling our mighty Falcon cries!" 

"We bid a full battalion of light armor, and maybe a bit of infantry to round things out."

with the BV of a star of dark age era falcon mechs, i could probably take a full regiment..


Quote
6 Scorpion Light Tank (LRM)
18 Scorpion Light Tank
4 Pegasus Scout Tanks
8 Savannah Master

2 Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (SRM)
4 Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle)

4 Warrior Attack helicopter H-7
4 Ferret Light Scout VTOL

2 Mechbuster
4 Guardian Fighter

total cost: 29,921,808 cbills

and out of curiosity, before skill modifiers the BV is only 15,532

that's a reinforced combined arms mechanized battalion.
2 Companies of Scorpions, with 3 regular and 1 LRM variant in each lance. (integral fire support.. Booyah)
1 Scout company of 4 Pegasus and 8 Savannah Master
2 Companies of Mechanized Wheeled Infantry.. 2 platoons of rifle and a platoon of SRM each.
1 VTOL support demi-company with a Lance of Warrior H-7's and a lance of Ferrets for recon.
and an air support squadron with a lance of Mechbusters and 2 lances of Guardians.

7 companies worth of troops total.

for the cost of a mech company you can field an under-strength combined arms regiment.
or if you really want a funny comparison, by cbill cost you could build 3 of these for the cost of one Savage Wolf..

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #23 on: 15 April 2017, 20:47:11 »
C-bills are terrible at everything can we please stop using them as meaningful comparisons especially with dark age equipment.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #24 on: 15 April 2017, 21:07:21 »
the unit may have been created using Cbills (it was for a "build a unit using a 30 million cbill budget" contest.. they never specified mechs), and i mainly retain the cbill price to illustrate how odd the cbill costs can get, since this unit is fairly potent (15K battle value!), and you could field one of them for the price of a good heavy mech.

in battle value, which is a somewhat more capable system, it still shows how things can have a huge gap.. with typical clan pilots, you'd be taking this unit up against a single heavy to assualt star of clan mechs from the 3050's. use the ones from 3100's, and your looking at a single clan star (with their 3/4 pilots) against 2-3 of these massed cheap tank units..


edit: and when i worked a modified version of this unit into Alpha Strike (dropping the Conventional Fighters and Hovers, and adjusting the number of LRM tanks to put one lance of them in each tank company, instead of one LRM tank in each lance), i fit it into 400 PV. which would put it up against a IS Heavy Mech Company or a Clan Medium Trinary. i probably could have fit the Hover Company and maybe even the Conventional Fighters back in if i'd been willing to go to 'green' skill levels for everything. (and i might still do that.)

Code: [Select]
Alpha Strike: Iron Tide 393pv

Unit Skill Points
-------------------------------------------------------
Armor Company 1
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14

Armor Company 2
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14

Infantry Battalion 1
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (SRM) 5 7

Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (SRM) 5 7

Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (SRM) 5 7

VTOL support Demi-company
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6

Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9
Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9
Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9
Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9
It is still a fairly one sided fight because of the numbers disparity, but not quite as bad.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2017, 23:28:18 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #25 on: 15 April 2017, 22:13:16 »
C-bills are terrible at everything can we please stop using them as meaningful comparisons especially with dark age equipment.

the unit may have been created using Cbills (it was for a "build a unit using a 30 million cbill budget" contest.. they never specified mechs), and i mainly retain the cbill price to illustrate how odd the cbill costs can get, since this unit is fairly potent (15K battle value!), and you could field one of them for the price of a good heavy mech.

in battle value, which is a somewhat more capable system, it still shows how things can have a huge gap.. with typical clan pilots, you'd be taking this unit up against a single heavy to assualt star of clan mechs from the 3050's. use the ones from 3100's, and your looking at a single clan star (with their 3/4 pilots) against 2-3 of these massed cheap tank units..
Gotta agree with this about not using C-Bills, for that example glitterboy provided is based upon the ICE's for the Scorpion's being built on a production line while the Savage Wolf's XXL being hand built by scientists, yet by the Dark Age it's likely the other way around.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #26 on: 15 April 2017, 23:33:31 »
I'm disappointed surprised the Jade Falcons haven't officially set the MSRP of all goods to allowing you and your family to live in service to Kerensky's True Children.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #27 on: 16 April 2017, 00:55:17 »
Gotta agree with this about not using C-Bills, for that example glitterboy provided is based upon the ICE's for the Scorpion's being built on a production line while the Savage Wolf's XXL being hand built by scientists, yet by the Dark Age it's likely the other way around.
I wouldn't go as far as to say ICEs are lostech, or even hard to produce. A lot of Dark Age units still use them, and they are simply better for day-to-day life or cheap units.

I mean really. Why would you exchange everything for a fusion engine that only needs to be recharged... A decade or a century or whatever, when you could provide a much more self-sustaining industry? People'll always need gas for those ICEs and Fuel Cells. Why stop producing them when there's still money to be made, money to save, and corners to cut?
« Last Edit: 16 April 2017, 00:58:53 by Caedis Animus »

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #28 on: 16 April 2017, 01:19:21 »
I wouldn't go as far as to say ICEs are lostech, or even hard to produce. A lot of Dark Age units still use them, and they are simply better for day-to-day life or cheap units.

I mean really. Why would you exchange everything for a fusion engine that only needs to be recharged... A decade or a century or whatever, when you could provide a much more self-sustaining industry? People'll always need gas for those ICEs and Fuel Cells. Why stop producing them when there's still money to be made, money to save, and corners to cut?

This sort of thing has actually been quantified with the availability codes in Interstellar Operations. For example, the ICE engine has an availability rating of A for all eras. And, confirming a joke I'd made previously, the basic autocannon has an availability of D, higher than most of the fancier clan alternatives.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #29 on: 16 April 2017, 19:07:55 »
The Scorpion is amusing tank run into in waves.  Its fun to fight if your in mech.  Cheap if you need throw out a force on a budget and buy time for reinforcements to arrive.  I like it when Vehicle Effectiveness rules are used, those just make tank more survival and more c-bill for your price you paid.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #30 on: 16 April 2017, 19:10:05 »
For what it's worth, the Scorpion is the same weight as a Panver IV, but has an off road max speed much faster than that old tin can.

It's also heavier than the more modern Stingray Light Tank, which only weighs about 23 tonnes.

It's quite possibly one of the few attrition units that explicitly exist. Slow, easy to die in, but has enough firepower where the hits add up.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #31 on: 17 April 2017, 09:30:09 »
Also, you know how much I like MML's, JHB, and given the existence of the LRM, MRM, and SRM variants, there almost seems to be a need to create a MML Variant. If you take out the LRM Launchers and Ammo, I believe you can put in either 2 MML-5's or 4 MML-3's with three tons of ammo and the flexibility that goes with it.

You could also do a version with twin Thunderbolt-5 missile launchers. Same range, same damage, indirect fire.

Edit: Actually more damage if both missiles hit.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2017, 09:31:50 by mbear »
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #32 on: 17 April 2017, 09:59:21 »
You could also do a version with twin Thunderbolt-5 missile launchers. Same range, same damage, indirect fire.

Edit: Actually more damage if both missiles hit.
I did that, in the customs forum.
It is a beast really. Double damage, good endurance. Park behind a hill, lob missiles over it.
I don't think T-bolts very good weapons usually but this is one case where they're excellent.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #33 on: 17 April 2017, 10:04:57 »
For old-school tactics, park a lance or even a pair of the SRM Scorpion variant back as the bodyguards for a fire-support lance.  You can even park them under the feet of the big missile boys to help provide 360-degree short-range defense, and at least give any harassing scout units or striker-types that get in among the missile boats something else to think about..

Another fun old-school tactic with the SRM Scorpion is to pair it with a Hunchback 4G.  Same movement profile and being able to traverse most of the same terrain means you can have the can-opener and the crit-seeker stay right together.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #34 on: 17 April 2017, 10:48:18 »
SRMcorpions and Hunters are a great combo in the same regard CT is talking about- dirt cheap for both overall, but a whole mess of long range missiles downrange, with some 'pick another place to be' power from the little ones to boot. It's a tough combo to really beat on, and even if you beat them soundly the enemy probably lost less in terms of BV or C-bill cost than you spent on losses dealing with it.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #35 on: 17 April 2017, 21:14:41 »
A nice article covering one of those basic vehicles of the game.

Don't forget the possibility of flak ammo.  A five point hit is a fairly serious problem to a lot of thinly-armored VTOLs (which would is most of them in the Succession Wars) or your average conventional fighter.  If you don't have Partisans handy - and a lot of militias either don't own them or won't have enough to deploy them too widely - a Scorpion or Vedette battery may do in a pinch.  Two point hits are still slightly annoying if you blunder into 'Mechs or armor but won't inspire the enemy to put as much attention on the tanks if they're supporting something heavier.

The natural comparison for me on the Scorpion has always been the Vedette, which has the same armament but a higher speed and 50% more armor on twice the tonnage (which illustrates the inefficiency of the ICE nicely).  Vedettes are cheap cavalry tanks, Scorpions are garrison and infantry support units.  If you've got infantry mounted in APCs (especially the heavy tracked variety which is also 5/8), Vedettes are an excellent companion but Scorpions make good, cheap companions to mechanized or motorized infantry.

Looking to other "budget" hardware, Scorpions can also accompany Hetzers, Goblins, or Bulldogs to provide either ranged firepower (AC, LRM) or extra close-in crit-seeking (SRM) depending on what you're after.  Better yet, all three of those units are widespread and make great generic militia opponents if you paint your minis in camo instead of parade colors.

You could also do a version with twin Thunderbolt-5 missile launchers. Same range, same damage, indirect fire.

Edit: Actually more damage if both missiles hit.

Actually the range on a Thunderbolt is 6/12/18 with a minimum of 5 and notably Thunderbolts are at half damage inside their minimum.  MMLs have SRMs to address that problem.  Thunderbolts have a tactical niche but it's a very different role than the "jack of all trades" capability MMLs bring to the table.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2017, 21:17:38 by Moonsword »

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #36 on: 17 April 2017, 21:24:10 »
I would honestly say that against most things, running just Scorpions and some Mechanized/Motorized Infantry with field guns of the AC/2 and AC/5 variety would be as fluffy as it gets while also being brutally effective for cost.  It's as simple and as cheap a force as money can buy, can be maintained by the greenest techs ever trained, and can handle most terrain any vehicle will have to come across.

Sure, it's slow, but when you're assaulting through a city or some other static objective, there's no real way to prevent that kind of force from taking it short of closing and destroying enough of them to break the attack.  Given how many of them you can field for cheap, that's a lot of stuff to blow up.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #37 on: 17 April 2017, 21:48:24 »
I would honestly say that against most things, running just Scorpions and some Mechanized/Motorized Infantry with field guns of the AC/2 and AC/5 variety would be as fluffy as it gets while also being brutally effective for cost.  It's as simple and as cheap a force as money can buy, can be maintained by the greenest techs ever trained, and can handle most terrain any vehicle will have to come across.

Sure, it's slow, but when you're assaulting through a city or some other static objective, there's no real way to prevent that kind of force from taking it short of closing and destroying enough of them to break the attack.  Given how many of them you can field for cheap, that's a lot of stuff to blow up.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #38 on: 18 April 2017, 00:04:30 »
honestly i'm surprised we never got an IFV version of the Scorpion, reducing the weapons load slightly to fit a 3 ton infantry bay.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #39 on: 18 April 2017, 00:12:59 »
Doesn't Quiksell already produce an IFV?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #40 on: 18 April 2017, 00:22:44 »
honestly i'm surprised we never got an IFV version of the Scorpion, reducing the weapons load slightly to fit a 3 ton infantry bay.

There is a variant with a one ton cargo bay, enough for a squad.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #41 on: 18 April 2017, 00:28:20 »
That's the Scorpion ML, right?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #42 on: 18 April 2017, 00:29:11 »
Yep.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #43 on: 21 April 2017, 14:05:31 »
How much free weight gains this vee with a Fuel Cell instead of the ICE?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #44 on: 21 April 2017, 15:20:31 »
How much free weight gains this vee with a Fuel Cell instead of the ICE?
2 tons.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #45 on: 21 April 2017, 15:24:48 »
What does that do to the cost? I suspect it's not a massive increase, but if a pirate king can buy three ICE Scorpions for the price of two fuel cell Scorpions, he'll go with the better bargain. (House lords may not mind the added costs, but they also likely don't really care about better Scorpions either.)
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #46 on: 21 April 2017, 15:27:42 »
ICE Scorpion cost: 320 833 C-bills.
FC Scorpion cost:  417 083 C-bills. No other modifications so 2 tons underweight.

Per Solaris Armor Werks.

So the ratio is about 3 FCs per 4 ICEs.

EDIT Adding a SRM-2 and a ton of ammo would increase cost to 429 583 C-bills.

EDIT OK What the hell, SRM-2 costs 10k, the ammo 27k... And for comparison, SRM-4 is 60k... (ammo doesn't change).
« Last Edit: 21 April 2017, 15:30:54 by Empyrus »

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #47 on: 21 April 2017, 15:29:47 »
Ehhhh... guess it depends on what you do with those two tons then to make it worthwhile. An SRM-2 and ammo might be nice, or if it's a late enough era a wad of rocket launchers for a bit of extra one-time 'oomph' might be interesting.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #48 on: 21 April 2017, 15:32:27 »
Added SRM cost above.

Adding four RL-10s (3 turret, 1 front due to weight) would cost 75k or so more. Impressive alpha strike for its size.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #49 on: 21 April 2017, 15:35:24 »
I'd use it. Sounds like a fun little contraption to put a few of in a far-flung periphery garrison- let off AC shots at pirates at range, dump lunch at them if they keep advancing, chase them off with more autocannon if any pirates survive the rockets. Supported with infantry and maybe a couple of cheap LRM carrying vehicles, this could be a lot of fun.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #50 on: 21 April 2017, 15:41:33 »
RLs definitely seem to suit the Scorpion.  They don't last long, it doesn't necessarily last long, but one extra massive kick may just keep it alive for ten or twenty extra seconds.

On a periphery backwater with lots of infantry or even irregulars, the other thing I'd consider would be two or three MGs or LMGs or something like that.  Granted, normally you can just count on infantry to keep infantry off, but a bit of extra suppression doesn't always go a miss.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #51 on: 21 April 2017, 15:43:28 »
How about pulling the AC/5 instead and equipping the turret with 9 RL-15s?
Would be interesting field refit/repair in case one doesn't have extra AC/5s left.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #52 on: 21 April 2017, 15:46:18 »
How about pulling the AC/5 instead and equipping the turret with 9 RL-15s?
Would be interesting field refit/repair in case one doesn't have extra AC/5s left.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #53 on: 21 April 2017, 15:54:50 »
I'd use it. Sounds like a fun little contraption to put a few of in a far-flung periphery garrison- let off AC shots at pirates at range, dump lunch at them if they keep advancing, chase them off with more autocannon if any pirates survive the rockets. Supported with infantry and maybe a couple of cheap LRM carrying vehicles, this could be a lot of fun.

...that sounds like my idea of the perfect Marian militia unit.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #54 on: 21 April 2017, 16:06:33 »
With two extra tons I would genuinely and honestly use it to field an Ultra AC/5 and extra ton of ammo.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #55 on: 21 April 2017, 16:13:23 »
While i did replace the gun with twin T-bolt 5s to a custom Scorpion, i'm not sure such a cheap tank really deserves even an Ultra AC (let alone my T-bolt 5 mod). I mean, it is a good upgrade but not really worth the expense of buying the gun, transporting it, and installing it.

The fuel cell engine itself is less problematic since it can be adapted from civilian sources.
Though i cannot really think of any way to justify the fuel cell engine either. Requires too much time and work.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #56 on: 21 April 2017, 16:59:58 »
The difference in cost between an AC/5 and ton of ammo and a UAC/5 and two tons of ammo is less than 90k.  The increase in range is more than enough to offset that cost.  If we're determined to add a Fuel Cell already, at least.  I'd absolutely take a pair of Ultra/5 Scorpions up against a trio of standard AC/5 Scorpions and expect something akin to a fair fight.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #57 on: 21 April 2017, 17:09:58 »
Sure, if you start upgrading a tank, you might as well do a bit more at once then. But i'm not sure it is really worth upgrading a Scorpion in anyway.
BTW, you could just remove the MG and its ammo and swap the main gun to an UAC/5 with one ton of ammo. Wouldn't require an engine swap. Could work as pure anti-armor unit, if supported by infantry.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #58 on: 24 April 2017, 07:26:31 »
The difference in cost between an AC/5 and ton of ammo and a UAC/5 and two tons of ammo is less than 90k.  The increase in range is more than enough to offset that cost.  If we're determined to add a Fuel Cell already, at least.  I'd absolutely take a pair of Ultra/5 Scorpions up against a trio of standard AC/5 Scorpions and expect something akin to a fair fight.

So then you'd have no problem slapping on some sort of Ferro-Fibrous armor either?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #59 on: 24 April 2017, 08:35:37 »
Somewhat less effective (but still plenty handy) is a version packing two medium lasers in the turret. This required heat sinks and power converters, and increases costs as a result. The lasers each hit as hard as the old AC, but with drastically reduced range- if that's okay for your uses, such as in an urban area, this may not be a bad idea. The nose-mounted MG remains here, and a one-ton cargo bay allows you to bring a lunch. It's a toss-up between range and power on whether or not this is more useful to your style of play over the standard model.


I wonder if the Draconis Combine might use the ML version as the basis for a Light PPC armed variant. That would give the same range and damage profile as the original AC/5 model, and require one less heat sink. Additional machine gun maybe?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #60 on: 24 April 2017, 08:44:13 »
A couple of ideas:

Idea 1 - Based off the Medium Laser Variant, use ton from the infantry bay and add TAG.

Idea 2 - Create a version that carries a Mech Mortar (in Inner Sphere tonnage, it would have to be a Mech Mortar 4) and a couple tons of ammo. Sorta poor militia's artillery.

You can use the TAG variant to call in LRM's, Mortar Shots from the Mech Mortar, or Artillery...
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #61 on: 24 April 2017, 11:22:28 »
I wonder if the Draconis Combine might use the ML version as the basis for a Light PPC armed variant. That would give the same range and damage profile as the original AC/5 model, and require one less heat sink. Additional machine gun maybe?

I don't have the construction rules handy, but I'm not seeing the weight working as you're putting it. The PPCs weigh more than the lasers, don't they? Or am I missing something else?

A couple of ideas:

Idea 1 - Based off the Medium Laser Variant, use ton from the infantry bay and add TAG.

Idea 2 - Create a version that carries a Mech Mortar (in Inner Sphere tonnage, it would have to be a Mech Mortar 4) and a couple tons of ammo. Sorta poor militia's artillery.

You can use the TAG variant to call in LRM's, Mortar Shots from the Mech Mortar, or Artillery...

The mortar tank came from a discussion Redshirt and I had over wings yesterday, and I love the idea of it. One is kind of lame, but a platoon of them could be a serious nuisance with smoke ammo. As part of a larger force, I'd happily throw something like this together (and if possible delete the now-superfluous turret in the process).
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #62 on: 24 April 2017, 12:54:35 »
So then you'd have no problem slapping on some sort of Ferro-Fibrous armor either?

Not really!  Probably that one would depend on the capability of the planet to support them.  Ultra ACs are the sort of things you can fix up with 20 minutes in the MFB.  Replacing an entire sheathe of Ferro-Fibrous requires a continuous supply of the stuff, which is a sight more difficult to ensure.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #63 on: 24 April 2017, 18:04:11 »
Swapping out 2 medium lasers for an LPPC on an ICE vehicle ought to break even in tonnage.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #64 on: 24 April 2017, 18:43:29 »
2 ML + 6 SHS = 8 tons
1 LPPC + 5 SHS = 8 tons

Power amp and turret mass should be the same.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #65 on: 24 April 2017, 18:56:04 »
Swapping the AC on the basic hull for a light PPC is a net gain by nearly every metric. Same raw damage performance, an extra ton to put elsewhere, Smaller logistical tail, the Light PPC is more readily available by the dark age (availability C vs D for the autocannon), the cost isn't all that higher (depending on what you spend your ton on).
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #66 on: 24 April 2017, 19:01:43 »
What's going to get you the most bang for your buck? Twin RL-10s? More armor? Two more MGs? Ton of cargo like the ML variant for, say, an infantry squad?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #67 on: 24 April 2017, 19:35:31 »
Swapping the AC on the basic hull for a light PPC is a net gain by nearly every metric. Same raw damage performance, an extra ton to put elsewhere, Smaller logistical tail, the Light PPC is more readily available by the dark age (availability C vs D for the autocannon), the cost isn't all that higher (depending on what you spend your ton on).

Light PPCs being more available than AC/5s in the Dark Age is a fantastic reason to ignore availability tables in most eras.  That said, Light PPCs will have a demonstrably more difficult time taking care of fast movers in any sense of the word, being unable to use Precision or Flak ammo.  Most times I wouldn't care, but if you're fielding large numbers of Scorpions I daresay you probably don't have the Pulse Lasers or LBXs to take those down otherwise.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #68 on: 24 April 2017, 20:44:22 »
Light PPCs being more available than AC/5s in the Dark Age is a fantastic reason to ignore availability tables in most eras. 

Why? The light PPC has had decades to make its mark and The AC-5 is obsolete technology. In addition, an availability rating of D isn't particularly rare, it's comparable to fusion engines. It's really only an issue when you're talking about units produced in numbers larger than most battlemechs, like, say, scorpion tanks.

That said, Light PPCs will have a demonstrably more difficult time taking care of fast movers in any sense of the word, being unable to use Precision or Flak ammo.  Most times I wouldn't care, but if you're fielding large numbers of Scorpions I daresay you probably don't have the Pulse Lasers or LBXs to take those down otherwise.

You have one ton of ammo, so it's not like you can use that flexibility very well. Also, if you can't get advanced weapons, why should we assume you're high enough on the logistical chain to get specialty ammo?  :P It's a very thin thing to pin your hopes on.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #69 on: 24 April 2017, 20:44:52 »
What's going to get you the most bang for your buck? Twin RL-10s? More armor? Two more MGs? Ton of cargo like the ML variant for, say, an infantry squad?

My first instinct is either more armor or an infantry squad.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #70 on: 24 April 2017, 23:07:26 »
Why? The light PPC has had decades to make its mark and The AC-5 is obsolete technology. In addition, an availability rating of D isn't particularly rare, it's comparable to fusion engines. It's really only an issue when you're talking about units produced in numbers larger than most battlemechs, like, say, scorpion tanks.

You have one ton of ammo, so it's not like you can use that flexibility very well. Also, if you can't get advanced weapons, why should we assume you're high enough on the logistical chain to get specialty ammo?  :P It's a very thin thing to pin your hopes on.

Flak ammo is easy enough to produce just about anywhere, and never went extinct.  And I'd say there's a fair bit of difference in supply chain strain between "We need a Light PPC and a bunch of heat sinks, so we can rip out the AC/5 and replace it.  The Scorpion will be out of action for a few days, at least, and we'll need a dropship bay if you want it to work right" and "We need a half dozen tons of Precision ammo for our Autocannons".
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #71 on: 24 April 2017, 23:26:13 »
But you're still stuck with the problem of all you have is precision ammo. Even if you have a massive stockpile of varied munitions, you still only have the one ammo bay.

Also there's the long term investment. Once you've pulled the autocannon and put in the PPC, you don't need to keep buying stuff to keep it going (barring replacement, which, once again, the Light PPC is a better candidate for because it's easier to get). With the autocannon, you always have to get more ammo. The refit pays for itself eventually.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #72 on: 25 April 2017, 02:18:06 »
Wasn't ammo becoming scarcer and more valuable in the Dark Age as shipping got disrupted?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #73 on: 25 April 2017, 02:26:51 »
Wasn't ammo becoming scarcer and more valuable in the Dark Age as shipping got disrupted?

Probably, but I'm not sure it's quantified much. For the most part the Universal technology table suggests that equipment either becomes more common or remains just as common as previous eras (My example of the AC isn't that the AC5 is more scarce, light ppcs are becoming more common).

Even so, from a story standpoint I wouldn't necessarily expect any type of shipments to always arrive promptly.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #74 on: 25 April 2017, 13:42:51 »
I can be wrong, but did not the FCE comes with a free SHS?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #75 on: 25 April 2017, 13:54:29 »
I can be wrong, but did not the FCE comes with a free SHS?
Yes, one.
So, nobody should think about using energy weapons with a fuel cell engine, not really. You still need power amps and additional heat sinks. A Small Pulse Laser would require half a ton for the power amp and another heat sink. And a Small Laser would effectively weight one ton with the power amp.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #76 on: 25 April 2017, 19:41:53 »
What's the availability on Chem Lasers in the Dark Age?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #77 on: 25 April 2017, 19:46:50 »
What's the availability on Chem Lasers in the Dark Age?

E, which as a clan weapon would raise the availability to F for Inner Sphere units.

Which is tragic considering how well suited it would be to small, cheap, expendable vehicles like these.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #78 on: 25 April 2017, 20:03:48 »
I wouldn't put too much stock on the availability ratings, just like i wouldn't look at the rules-based C-bills costs. They just don't make much sense.

There is at least one Inner Sphere vehicle using Chemical Lasers (some FWL helicopter IIRC). Mixed-tech, of course. But evidently they can be bought from Sea Foxes.

A Large Chemical Laser would be pretty good fit for Scorpions BUT once again, i'm not sure it is worth upgrading. If you go energy weapon route, a Light PPC is probably cheaper to acquire, though obviously it won't free weight for other stuff.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #79 on: 25 April 2017, 20:51:07 »
I wouldn't put too much stock on the availability ratings, just like i wouldn't look at the rules-based C-bills costs. They just don't make much sense.

There is at least one Inner Sphere vehicle using Chemical Lasers (some FWL helicopter IIRC). Mixed-tech, of course. But evidently they can be bought from Sea Foxes.

If they're available, then sure, they can be obtained. The availability tables don't say "you can't have this" (Technically even availability X isn't really a prohibition, just the province of prototypes and one offs). It just rates how things are relatively available to each other.

Just like the XXL engine had an F availability rating after the Jihad, but the Lyrans still had a production model Battlemaster using one.

I imagine a scorpion variant using chemical lasers is perfectly reasonable, there just aren't enough chemical lasers on the market to produce the scorpion in the same amounts as other variants. It's about nuance, not yes or no.
« Last Edit: 25 April 2017, 20:53:27 by Liam's Ghost »
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #80 on: 29 April 2017, 03:09:46 »
Actually given the fluff around Chemical Lasers, Scorpions and the like using them wouldn't be that unusual, aren't they said to be based off of IS weapons that pre-dated modern lasers?

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #81 on: 29 April 2017, 07:08:32 »
Maybe on New St. Andrews or something.

In the Inner Sphere proper...even Quikcell insists on a certain minimum level of technological sophistication.

On the other hand, a Scorpion IIC with modern chemlights sounds like the perfect thing for the Horses to assign to their bottom-tier units that still merit actual vehicles.
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #82 on: 29 April 2017, 19:23:21 »
I was thinking more along the lines of something produced during the Succession Wars.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #83 on: 29 April 2017, 19:35:15 »
The chemical lasers resurrect the old concept of using gases as lasing medium* but that does not mean the weapons are Inner Sphere technology. They share the performance characteristic of standard lasers but that could be just because gas lasers aren't effective for military use. Considering the Hell's Horses managed to keep the laser size small and weight low while having auto-loading mechanism for the lasing gas shells, i highly doubt they can be replicated that easily with Inner Sphere technology. Most certainly not during the Succession Wars.

*Headcanon: This incidentally double as coolant, and when it gets dumped it effectively negates the need for heat sinks in vehicles.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #84 on: 29 April 2017, 19:45:37 »
actually per their entry in Tactical Operations, Chemical lasers were around for a long time.. predating even fusion engines.
the reason we only have clan tech versions is just that the clans were the first ones to adopt them in recent times.
"Chemical lasers were actually the first effective energy weapons able to physically damage relatively robust targets, like solid-fueled missiles and
unarmored military vehicles. With the advent of economical fusion engines and refinements in electrically powered lasing mechanisms, however, they were quickly overtaken by a new generation of “fuel-free” laser weapons that have become today’s standard."


so there is little reason for there not to be IS versions, aside from the general focus of the IS on ever more advanced technology rather than leveraging existing stuff fully.
« Last Edit: 29 April 2017, 19:51:59 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #85 on: 29 April 2017, 19:59:21 »
Early chemical lasers also predate modern mech grade armor. We can't guarantee those early lasers wouldn't have the same problem as rifles/cannons. That said...

so there is little reason for there not to be IS versions, aside from the general focus of the IS on ever more advanced technology rather than leveraging existing stuff fully.

Fun note, Chemical Lasers are classified as tech level E technology. It's far from a perfect equivalence, but it is roughly comparable to most Star League technology.

So personal headcannon, early chemical lasers aren't sufficiently effective against modern armor to be worthwhile, and require Star League equivalent technology to be competitive. 
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #86 on: 02 May 2017, 15:53:40 »
Scorpion has always been a interesting tank for the possibilities.  Like others have said I would definitely like to see a MML version (2 5s & 3t ammo works on the SRM chassis) and a IFV- in the Jihad we had enough 'local' producers make IFV versions of their light tanks.  My favorite is a MML3 and some MagShots in the turret- but I would have preferred a XTRO version that had patchwork armor where reactive or hardened would cover the front.

Also wish we might have gotten a canon periphery version that dropped the AC for the appropriate rifle, something to make it even lower tech though it would be good to hunt BA.

I thought this thing had a LB-X version like the Vedette for many of the same reasons?
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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #87 on: 02 May 2017, 20:19:50 »
Heck, let's go the whole hog!

1) The Katyusha version mentioned earlier.
2) Sturm-Katyusha - drop the turret, add several RL-20s and fill gaps with RL-10s
3) The JagdScorpion - drop turret, fit RAC-2 with 2 tons ammo. (Would have loved to fit an LB-10X, but ... didn't work.)
4) The Scorpion BMP-1, with LAC/2 in turret, limited amphibious, and 3-ton infantry bay
(or the BMP-2 version, with LRM-5 & SRM-2 in turret, ton ammo each, same amphib & troop capacity)
5) Rename the LAC version "Wirlbewind"

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #88 on: 02 May 2017, 20:51:18 »
3) The JagdScorpion - drop turret, fit RAC-2 with 2 tons ammo. (Would have loved to fit an LB-10X, but ... didn't work.)

This works with an LB-X if you drop the MG and a ton of armor in order in addition to the turret.  Of course, you only get one ton of ammo.
« Last Edit: 02 May 2017, 20:55:47 by ravensword »

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #89 on: 02 May 2017, 21:04:38 »
What about a MPL?

Or even a mix tech cMPL?

TT
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Sabelkatten

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #90 on: 03 May 2017, 10:10:31 »
This works with an LB-X if you drop the MG and a ton of armor in order in addition to the turret.  Of course, you only get one ton of ammo.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #91 on: 03 May 2017, 12:28:12 »
Why do a 10X? An LB-5X would easily work, not require a lot of extra monkeying with the chassis, and while it's less pellets per turn it's also longer range, more ammo per ton, and same AA bonuses.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #92 on: 03 May 2017, 13:26:04 »
What about a MPL?

Or even a mix tech cMPL?

TT

by the time you adding in all the other changes you need to support it (fusion or power converters) you've pretty much abandoned the budget vehicle niche and are most of the way to a whole new design. better to stick to ballistics and missiles

mbear

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #93 on: 31 May 2017, 09:48:46 »
On the other hand, a Scorpion IIC with modern chemlights sounds like the perfect thing for the Horses to assign to their bottom-tier units that still merit actual vehicles.

The Horses could also sell them to their former holdings in the Periphery. ISP3's New Oberon Confederation, etc. Provides the Horses with an early warning system from an attack along that route, plus ties the nations to the Horses.

Or maybe they'd be found in the Escorpion Imperio?
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mbear

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #94 on: 06 December 2018, 13:20:48 »
Any plans to add the "Desert Scorpion" variant from TTS: Stotzing to this article?
Be the Loremaster:

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Fear Factory

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #95 on: 08 December 2018, 14:56:22 »
Anything made by Quickscell is the best.


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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #96 on: 30 December 2018, 11:56:08 »
Anything made by Quickscell is the best.


 ;)
You're a loony....But back to the topic at at hand.

Anyone thought about enLRM and LMGs'?  would seem to be a cheap upgrade to the tank and give it the ability to fire indirectly enhancing it's survivability.  Ammo costs is much higher than AC-5 but comparable to standard LRM versions.



Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #97 on: 28 May 2023, 00:01:54 »
Any plans to add the "Desert Scorpion" variant from TTS: Stotzing to this article?

So Sarna has this to say about the Desert Scorpion:
Quote from: Sarna, link=https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Scorpion_(Combat_Vehicle)
A variant produced for the Stotzing militia, which is essentially a complete rebuild of the design. The local refit yard stripped out the engine of the standard Scorpion and replaced it with a 125-rated fusion engine. This increased the ground speed to a maximum of 84 km/h. The weaponry was also modified, with the autocannon being replaced by a large laser. An extra machine gun was added to the turret. For protection, the Desert Scorpion carries seven tons of armor and CASE around the machine gun ammo.

So getting bargain militia tanks away from ICE is something I've long wanted, and the increase in speed isn't terrible. The switch to an energy weapon makes sense for something that's supposed to be cheap, no munitions. Armor is frankly absurd, relatively it's carrying more then an Atlas, so maybe it could be reduced to carry a better weapon? FF armor would also work, as armor is basically expendable it should be in better supply then anything else. Keeping the machine gun, and even doubling it, is frankly not the best idea, even if the CASE prevents this from being a total disaster.

What we're really missing here are the FCE-powered SRM and LRM variants to go along side it.

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #98 on: 28 May 2023, 08:45:16 »
Rereading the old post, I have to laugh a little bit. Looking at that tank. I keep thinking the cheap skates who built the scorpion said you know what I wonder if we could put legs on this thing? This mech same name was indirectly created. ;D
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DOC_Agren

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Re: VotW: Scorpion
« Reply #99 on: 03 July 2023, 20:14:13 »
I love the Scorpion, it is a great garrison/militia force tank where you are not planning them as your front line forces but might have to put down local rebels.

Some where I have a whole family of designs based on it.
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