Author Topic: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average  (Read 1047 times)

StoneRhino

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What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« on: 24 April 2017, 08:26:37 »
Before someone posts their RCT list, or fantasy football league rosters, I am strictly asking about player versus player, team versus team, non-GMed, 1 off games. The games that we hold in Montclair, California @ Gameology is surrounded by 40k, X-wing, Starwars Armada, along with card games such as Magic and Game of Thrones. I have had a few goals for the past few years and one of them is to get a tournament started.

We all know that BT takes longer then other games, and ignoring AS for now as that is another goal, but what is your BV cap, how many units do you typical see per player, and how long do your games tend to last? Also, how would you rate your level of experience? What level of tech do you tend to use?

Our games are 10k per player, with 2 players per team or 1v2 where the single player team runs a 20k force. We tend to have 5.5 hours of game time, but for various reasons including socializing, the games tend to be picked up the next game day. The number of units per player has grown as group members have gotten into infantry. We tend to see few if any skill upgrades, and at least one player has stated that he avoids using higher end I.S. Assault mechs. I believe that our unit count average is 10 units per player, ranging from standard infantry to assault mechs, for I.S. players. How this will affect clan players is mostly unknown due to the low use of their units by the group that we have.


Firesprocket

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #1 on: 24 April 2017, 12:02:43 »
Anywhere between 3-10k depending on what people are up for.  So roughly a lance to 6 units after you adjust for the pilots.

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #2 on: 24 April 2017, 12:32:02 »
6k over here, no pilot upgrades. A lance or so is the usual limit, but up to a company is possible with a lighter combined-arms force. Most of our fights are free-for-alls, and usually take an afternoon.
« Last Edit: 24 April 2017, 16:18:02 by Weirdo »
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Kharim

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #3 on: 24 April 2017, 12:51:58 »
Currently:
10000 bv2 per player
4 players max

1 battlemech
6 vechicles
2 BA squads
2 infantry platoon

All unit slots must be filled. Whatever skill upgrades you wish, tech limited by year- we use 3145 now. Almost full TacOps rules, although simplified buildings and no aerial support.

It can take at least 6 hours to finish the game, not taking socializing and preparations into consideration.

But we tried different approaches, 5000 bv2 per player we can play fast (3 hours average), sometimes we play solaris arena one battlemech per player limited by weight class, thats even faster.

Iron Mongoose

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #4 on: 24 April 2017, 12:54:46 »
Its variable, and MegaMek changes a lot.  On the actual table top, a lance is the absolute most, though an assault lance vs another assault lance with better pilots can still run nearly 10k (more for Clan or other ultra modern tech, or elite pilots).  On average, on a table top its one on one or two on two, and with such small games (usually against other experienced and competent players) its mostly easier to use one's gut about balance than bother to calculate BV. 

In MegaMek, I've gone over 20 units a few times (a mech company and a company of mixed support forces usually).  Given the support forces, its still usually under 20k BV, 25 at most.  That's probably the most units I've done, except maybe once using proto mechs counting each as its own unit (that was a nightmare). Average is all over the map.  An elite Clan assault star can be 30k+ all on its own, more for some of the most modern designs, while a lance of old tech IS mechs might not break 3k.  Sometimes you run one on one, sometimes you run a company vs a company or a star or a binary.  I've done games keeping it under 1000 BV (cheap ass mechs, tanks, infantry can get ridiculous) and games where a single ultimate mech with a 1/1 or 0/0 takes on a star or a lance or two.  Its just so quick to get things set up, and so much faster, that it enables so many more games and so many more possibilities. 

Now, that said, I've only played with my kids in the last few years, so one on one or two on two is the most we've done.  My son has a soft spot for the Warhammer, and is obsessed with it being as good as my favored Marauder.  We had to dig through old mech of the week articles so he could see the commentary, and realize that a lot of other people shared his preference and he wasn't wrong going against his dad.
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Frederick Steiner

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #5 on: 24 April 2017, 13:42:47 »
We are playing 8,000, 16,000 or 24,000 points, called 1-lance, 2-lance, or 3-lance games.

We're calculating 1,000 per unit for the main force, then doubling that to make room for support units (we're playing combined arms), or to go heavier with the core units. In theory, we're expecting between 6 and 12 units in an 8,000 game, the other games scaling accordingly. In practice we're using everything from Assault lances to infantry battalions and swarms of helicopters.

We're usually playing for the better part of a lazy Sunday.

Sartris

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #6 on: 24 April 2017, 16:31:03 »
I BV balance my campaign games at about 8k per side. Any more than 10-12k and it becomes challenging to finish an objective-based game in the three hours we have. I knock 25-30% off total scenario bv if clan honor is a factor.

One-offs I try to stick to 6-8k, max six units plus  one company infantry max (or one platoon BA). Lance leader gets a pilot upgrade to 3/4


House Davie Merc

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #7 on: 25 April 2017, 02:54:37 »
IMHO -If you're going to discuss average BV2 game limits as well as unit size
knowing the ERA you plan to game in is critical .

For the 3025 era we lean towards 6K for a mech lance and the same
for a combined arms unit of up to 6 units . That BV is used for skill upgrades
as well .
For larger battles we just use a comparable ratio .

StoneRhino

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #8 on: 25 April 2017, 06:36:48 »
IMHO -If you're going to discuss average BV2 game limits as well as unit size
knowing the ERA you plan to game in is critical .

Recently moved up to 3090 tech, not that it changed much from the 3070-80s tech. Players are free to use tech from that era and earlier, especially since some are not crazy about XL engines and it can become difficult to avoid I.S. XLs in the later dates.

 The BV cap of 10k is based upon games from years ago when the cap was 400tons per player, in 2v2 player games. 3 of 4 players used a lot of assault mechs, 1 of them used assault mechs exclusively. Basically it comes out to just about enough points to get a lance of Thunderhawks. The average BV2 score of the games were varied, but lean to significantly higher due to rolled pilot skills with one player's skills bringing down the average, but with those other 3 the average would probably be placed at about 15k per player. Those games were settled within 4 hours with socializing.

The game rules have not changed significantly, if anything they have been far more simplified as we used to use aircraft, LAMs, artillery, infantry, vehicles, speciality ammo, and far more weapons then TW. I am wondering what has changed things so much that games in the past were played to a point where one side could clearly concede the field without a doubt, to the current group not reaching that point in the same amount of time. It would appear that it is a matter of pilot skills and weapons as far as unit destruction goes, but the positioning of units does not reach the same point even though in the past the other players were not mindlessly aggressive.

We have recently reintroduced aircraft, and with the next game artillery to the game. I am hoping that the potential risk of being bombed or shelled with get everyone advancing units a bit faster, but at the same time it risks inducing longer decision cycles as the risk of being hit anywhere at any time has been introduced, or at least the threat of such.

The point is to have fun, not to increase a finished game count of sorts. However, wanting to have a tournament in the near future will require that players advance to a point in which one player/team has played a game to a point that they can honestly concede without feeling that they were pressured to do so. At least to a reasonable extent as some would think keeping a locust hiding until next tuesday from a fresh assault lance means that they still have a chance at winning.

Hellraiser

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #9 on: 26 April 2017, 23:47:09 »
I've been playing w/ the same GM/Commano for 15 years now & I think the minimum/maximums have always fallen between 1-6 Units & 1500-7K for BV.

Typically its 2-4 Units & 3500-5K with a few games that were larger/smaller.

That might seem small to some, but there have been lots of times where its 3-6 players per side/team, not just 1-2, so it adds up fast & if everyone had 10K the game would last a week.

As it is now with that many people per side & having several units each between the crosstalk & tactics discussions we can barely get in 1-2 turns per hour.
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Col Toda

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #10 on: 16 June 2017, 11:13:24 »
The most is a little over 60,000 for 16 mechs 8 light combat vehicles and a platoon of Battle Armor. Basically half a custom Overlord with the other half guarding the LZ with 8 mechs and 16 combat vehicles and a platoon of Battle Armor . For the games I was in BV was less an issue as how much could be controlled quickly and without too much thought to heat issues. I can run 2 companies of cold running units in the time it would take someone to run 2 lances of TSM equippod mechs. Fielding so many heat neutral combat vehicles and cold running mechs permit it.

Kovax

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #11 on: 16 June 2017, 12:14:19 »
Most of the games I've been in have been in the "lance per side" range, with or without a lance of vehicles in support.  That's varied from Lights to Assaults, with most games in the Medium to Heavy range.  A few battles have ranged up to about Company-per-side size, with a mix of weight classes.

....then there was the game with a lance of basic APCs and a platoon of foot infantry, deployed as squads to fit into the APCs.  It had to be under 500 BV per side.

In one MegaMek campaign, I ran several "street riot" battles with a mix of light APCs, converted flatbed trucks, and a couple of other light vehicles ranging from nothing more than a car with an MG or SRM-2 rack to the "high end" consisting of a Scorpion light tank; it seemed pretty ridiculous at first, but turned out to be an interesting battle.  Unfortunately, MegaMek seems to have done away with the Ultra-Light lance category, so now they'd frequently find themselves up against some mix of Light and Medium 'Mechs and vehicles.  Somehow, a Flatbed Truck with an LRM rack doesn't seem like a good match against a Wolverine or Trebuchet.

Vonshroom

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #12 on: 21 July 2017, 14:13:43 »
I've actually been out of the game for a few years, and coming back. I've played 5 games in the last month with family, and a friend of mine who is just getting into BT.

BV is overrated. And from an in universe perspective makes no sense.
I would suggest instead of using BV for TT games just use a tonnage cap or weight restrictions. This is pretty much the way I've always played.

I usually play with either one or two other players in a free for all. We play with anywhere from 1-4 mechs each and it usually takes 4-5 hours for anything more than two each. BT really is a game that really requires you to use three mechs + for optimal most fun gaming experience (more than a lance, and the game time goes waaay up). Anything less, and you are missing out on the "unit" aspect of things, and its basically luck of the dice and stand there and shoot each other.

Last nights game looked like this and was a very balanced, fun 5 hour game (Players choice of Heavy, Med, & Light)

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Sticking to the 3025 era we usually play something like everyone chooses 4 mechs. Choice of a Heavy, two Mediums, and a Light. Or 3 mechs, Heavy, Med, Light. (We find this optimal and most fun.) But really you can make it any weight class you want. Sometimes we'll just play a 200 ton limit. 3-4 mechs of mixed weights really lets you use mechs for the purposes they were designed, i.e. brawler, scout, sniper, LRM support, etc. VS just having a slug fest.

We strictly use mechs, mostly because I am playing with two newer players who prefer mech combat anyways, as do I.
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Phobos101

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #13 on: 29 July 2017, 01:20:24 »
I usually play with fairly inexperienced players (I include myself in this statement), in 3025-3062 tech, and if we just want a balanced "pick up and play" game, we will usually go 3k-7k BV, either random assignment, or selected depending on the players. If we're doing a campaign track or a well fluffed scenario, then we look to drop weights and dice tables. Combined arms normally only comes into play in campaign stuff for us.

Crow

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #14 on: 31 July 2017, 10:48:27 »
Do you folks ever bring artillery to a pick up game? Is it worth it or does it take up too much time?
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Sartris

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #15 on: 31 July 2017, 11:51:07 »
you might want to check out the new artillery/aerospace battlefield support rules in the BattleMech Manual. it gives you what you need without having to get too deep into the weeds.

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #16 on: 31 July 2017, 13:27:28 »
Worth it if you bring enough tubes. You really need at least two, and my group has instituted a max of four tubes per player force to prevent excessive cheese.
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Col Toda

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #17 on: 09 September 2017, 23:57:53 »
The games I played was balance more by tonnage than BV . Still one modified Overlord sent out a force of 16 mechs , 8 Combat vehicles , and a platoon of battle armor to attack . 8 mechs , 10 Combat Vehicles and a platoon of Battle Armor defending the LZ . I figure about 60,000 BV for the attacking force and 40K BV for LZ defense through a good chunk of that is the drop ship. Mechs with gteat heat balance and heat neutral combat vehicles permits me to move and use 19 combat units in the time that most players would take to move 2 lances of TSM equipped mechs.

StoneRhino

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #18 on: 21 September 2017, 01:50:32 »
The games I played was balance more by tonnage than BV . Still one modified Overlord sent out a force of 16 mechs , 8 Combat vehicles , and a platoon of battle armor to attack . 8 mechs , 10 Combat Vehicles and a platoon of Battle Armor defending the LZ . I figure about 60,000 BV for the attacking force and 40K BV for LZ defense through a good chunk of that is the drop ship. Mechs with gteat heat balance and heat neutral combat vehicles permits me to move and use 19 combat units in the time that most players would take to move 2 lances of TSM equipped mechs.

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Caedis Animus

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #19 on: 21 September 2017, 01:55:47 »
Except for special matches (So, only for pickup games), my group back home tends towards 4K-5.5K games, and don't count pilots into BV (All pilots are always 3/4).

Of course, this goes well until someone decides to, say, somehow manage to shoehorn a freaking Hellstar into a lance of mechs that are otherwise all lights. I never realized that a Hellstar acting as ringmaster for two Fleas and an Urbanmech would be so terrifying.
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Charistoph

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #20 on: 21 September 2017, 03:00:19 »
An interesting perspective on this, but the better the tech, usually the faster the game.

Armor is limited, no matter the tech behind it, but the Weaponry that penetrates it, along with the more filled Critical Slots that advanced tech provides for a faster game.

Just think about how much firepower difference there is between a Timber Wolf Prime and a MAD-3R.  That's not even considering heat, range, and speed factors between the two.
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Kovax

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #21 on: 21 September 2017, 09:14:04 »
Yeah, 5K BV of Locusts per side would take forever, with To-Hit numbers in the 10+ range all night (4 base to-hit at short range, +2 for running, and +4 for the target's move; boxcars needed at medium range, and that's without any terrain modifiers).  Put a couple of Atlases or Awesomes on each side instead (something around 4-6 or higher needed to hit), and the game gets a lot shorter, despite all of that armor.

Better gunnery makes for a shorter game, but really screws over the lights compared to medium and heavier designs.  At 4/5 skill, "speed = armor".  At 3/4 skill, speed doesn't quite cut it.  In my opinion, Veterans should be a bit rare, and "Regulars" should be just that: "regular" and most common, with a few "greenies" mixed in to balance out the Veterans.  "Skill Creep", pulse weapons, extended ranges, and targeting computers have all degraded the value of light 'Mechs on the battlefield.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2017, 12:21:24 by Kovax »

StoneRhino

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #22 on: 23 September 2017, 20:55:54 »
I have a few people in my group that have started pushing for "faster games", though they are the ones taking a significant amount of time to make a single move. The BV per player is set at 10k each, which could possibly net someone a star of clan mechs if they try. Unfortunately, people have taken the limit to suggest that they need to bring 15 units each so that they can fill up the 2x2 map. I'm not going to get into the whole backwards, feelings based, quasi-academic view that is fueling their view, but they have been running games in the background to try and disprove what I have said to them. What I have said to them is to reduce their unit count and increase their pilot skills.

Games used to take maybe 5 hours with each player using 400 tons, back in 2000. Different players, different views, with a willingness to take advice. Pilots were typically elite and vets, while I had greens. The higher tech games with better pilots led to a lot of units being smashed quickly. Low tech games with average pilots with only a lance per side would last significantly longer, but would ultimately turn into a match of "rock em sock em robots", into a roaming bar room brawl where the units were in melee range but moved from one side of the map to the other.

What it comes down to is if you want a slow moving game then use smaller BV limits in the 5k or less range and lower tech levels. If you want a game that is going to move along at a decent rate, barring players having high levels of uncertainty about their moves, then higher BV games with higher tech and quality units is the way to go.

I don't like free pilot upgrades. I played for years that way, but we used the Maxtech pilot chart to roll for skills. People then assigned their pilots to whatever unit that they wanted, so there was no 100 custom clan mech being piloted by a 6/6 if there was a 1/1 available. If we played with a flat 3/4 then I would have had a much easier time since playing with 4/5s feels like I am hacking compared to the old 5/6, and 6/6 pilots that I ended up rolling. The better pilots do make the job of a light mech significantly harder, but it is still possible to go against elite clanners. Its not what I would suggest to anyone unless they want to leave the game or has a sick love for the hard-mode. In a BV regulated game free pilot upgrades should not have a place at the table if people want to have a fair game that allows all unit types to have an equal chance.

A game of light mechs swarming around a map trying to hit each other at range 9 or so going to be as boring as a 3025 fist fight and last even longer.

Kovax

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Re: What is your BV2 limit per game and unit count average
« Reply #23 on: 25 September 2017, 12:05:57 »
In my opinion, what's called for in "normal" games is for pilots to be "Regular" (4/5), with the option of fielding one Veteran and one Green per lance (or one Veteran and two Greenies if the Veteran pilots a 'Mech heavier than the Green).  Games with higher average skills should be the exception, not the rule.  If it's too difficult to hit the fast Lights on the table with your Regulars, you can take a Veteran with a decent "head hunting" 'Mech like a Jenner or Phoenix Hawk, not the heaviest thing on the table, but more than capable of shredding those pesky bugs.

Unfortunately, "Veteran" has become the new "norm" in a lot of games, and I've even seen one game where there were several pilots with negative skill numbers (illegal according to the rules, as far as I know): Medium range, firer ran, target gets a +2 for its movement, plus intervening heavy woods.....and you need 7s with all of the big guns?  4s with Pulse weapons and a Targeting Computer?  Forget about even putting anything with under 200 points of armor on the table.