Author Topic: Capturing worlds  (Read 898 times)

greywolf79

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Capturing worlds
« on: 16 June 2017, 22:56:26 »
Roughly how long would be a reasonable amount of time to take control of a world and then to pacify and integrate it into another realm? For instance if a world of say the Taurian Concordat, Magistracy of Canopus or Marian Hegemony was to be attacked and captured, how long before the citizens would accept the new ruling power?
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #1 on: 16 June 2017, 23:13:02 »
Need more info.




For real though, it would be dependent on a number of factors.  Taurian worlds?  Probably decades.  Marian or Canopian worlds would probably be easier to integrate, but it would still depend on which worlds, who captured them, how inclined the MH/MoC were to get them back, etc.
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greywolf79

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #2 on: 16 June 2017, 23:20:43 »
It is going to be a campaign for an alternate universe. It will be a unit that is loyal to the Federated Suns. I know the Taurians have a real issue with them. It will be a 3025 era campaign to start with. The goal is to finish off the Capella Confederation from a point of view in favor of the Federated Suns but not a part of them - so as to not cause the ComStar interdiction to be a major issue. They can carry on and work against the Capellan Confederation and since they would be an independent people, it is not directly attached to the Federated Suns thus allowing the Federated Suns to still get out of the interdiction by ending their war while the fight is still carried on.

My first thought of all the realms even close to the situation would be to take over the Marian Hegemony but they would be far away from the Capellan area and I am not sure it would be feasible to have them then wage a war with the Capellan Confederation. Magistracy of Canopus is much closer to the situation and I think would be more feasible in a variety of ways - however they and the Taurians have a sizable force to fight back with, where as the Marian Hegemony would not be able to put up as much of a struggle.
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Maelwys

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #3 on: 17 June 2017, 01:31:10 »
Speed of plot really. Early fiction sort of indicated that most people wouldn't care too much if it was a border world, as long as their daily lives weren't impacted too strenuously. On the other hand, later on your have the Capellans where apparently everyone drinks the koolaid no matter what.

You might be interested in the rules in IO for Inner Sphere at War. Page 363 has rules for the pacification of planets, as well as rules for how long it would take.

greywolf79

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #4 on: 17 June 2017, 01:56:34 »
You might be interested in the rules in IO for Inner Sphere at War. Page 363 has rules for the pacification of planets, as well as rules for how long it would take.

So, I see the table I think you are referring to... However I am not seeing where it says how long a turn is. Is that 1 turn = a month (what I would assume) or is there a different time measurement for the turns they use? Or is there a page that explains more about the basics of that system?
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Maelwys

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #5 on: 17 June 2017, 02:27:46 »
Yeah, 1 month. Its under "Sequence of play" on page 345.

Ice Hellion

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #6 on: 17 June 2017, 02:33:45 »
So, I see the table I think you are referring to... However I am not seeing where it says how long a turn is. Is that 1 turn = a month (what I would assume) or is there a different time measurement for the turns they use? Or is there a page that explains more about the basics of that system?

One turn is 4 weeks, ie 1 month (IO p.344).
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Each chased the ice hellion, hunting it down.
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Khan Cage smiled and said. "And that is how we shall be."

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Korzon77

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #7 on: 17 June 2017, 04:44:54 »
It also depends on the size of the world. 50,000 people centered around a "metropolise" of 10,000 citizens?  Not much of a problem.

A planet with a billion plus population?  Especially if they're hostile t o you, you're looking at a situation like invading modern day earth.

Also, don't forget that unlike the inner sphere, many periphery states embrace irregular warfare and long-term resistance.

XaosGorilla

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #8 on: 17 June 2017, 07:27:14 »
Well, the Reunification War (War of Forced Unification) ended in 2596.  The Star League needed to keep military forces on the ground until 2604-2605 implying a military occupation (including battlemech forces) of 10 years.  This was with a willing Calderon trying to do what he felt was best for his people, thus representing a best case scenario.  Mistakes along the way could add years or even decades to that number.

As for the integrate part?  Well, the Taurians seemed to be pretty happy when the league fell, which could be viewed as never....  This might need to measured in generational time spans.  Think 60+ years, Northern Ireland/IRA type situation.

greywolf79

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #9 on: 17 June 2017, 13:58:43 »
I am thinking in terms of being a productive setting. In other words - enemy force lands, wipes out defenders (TDF defenders), world then becomes a place where the invaders are not viewed as the enemy but the new government, and then production returns to normal levels, etc...

In other words they will not be absorbed by the Federated Suns, but they will be taken over by a force that has a more positive outlook towards the Federated Suns (trade agreements, peace treaties, etc with the Federated Suns).  And the newly formed nation will become a new major faction in the new timeline.
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Baldur Mekorig

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #10 on: 17 June 2017, 22:48:09 »
Taking a TC world in 3025? Expect heavy resistance from the local population, and even guerrillas, posibly supported by the TC.IIRC, the CC planets the CC conquered in the 4th SW took years, or even a decade to pacify. And you plan to create a new faction of these planets. Think about it.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #11 on: 18 June 2017, 00:25:03 »
I always viewed taking worlds and socially re-engineering from top to bottom (like what the Kurita and Liao Handbooks' in-universe writers allege happens) as being a process that takes generations of martial law. Sure, the ISAW has rules for how long it takes to subjugate a world and begin harnessing its RPs.  But getting denizens of a former Davion world to begin self-identifying as Capellans or Draconians?  It won't happen in the lifetimes of those alive when the world was first conquered.

I think this view also helps explain the sheeple principle of those along the borders of the empires of the Inner Sphere.  If a world has been under martial law by a conquerer for a few decades, then if it's liberated all the "progress" made towards brainwashing the youngest generation needs to be undone.  Hello *more* martial law.  It doesn't take much imagination to see how many/most worlds within a jump or two of House borders come to see martial law being implemented by one House as being little different than martial law implemented by another.

greywolf79

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #12 on: 18 June 2017, 01:28:59 »
So in your opinion would the Magistracy be an easier to pacify target?
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Death by Lasers

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #13 on: 18 June 2017, 04:23:43 »
  It's a good question but I believe it starts to hit on the plausibility limits of the universe.  In most cases you are "pacifying" a world hundreds of millions with an army in the low thousands.  So you if you occupy a world of three hundred million with three regiments of infantry (roughly 6,000 guys when you add in the support personnel per Campaign Ops) you are looking at one soldier per 50,000 civilians.  Imagine trying to do something even basic like enforce a curfew with that kind of numerical disparity.

  As others have mentioned a simple solution is to just use the existing rules in the IS in flames game.  If we are going by Interstellar Ops (363) then pacification takes 2 to 3 months for a minor world and half a year for a major one.  It's very straight forward and doesn't inspire the imagination much but it's a decent place to start especially if you are running a campaign.

  One thing to consider is that Battletech is a post ethnic-nationalist universe ruled for the most part by dynastic empires not unlike some of the empires/kingdoms of old.  Many of these old empires could be remarkable light on the ground so I would imagine the same could be true of the Btech universe. 

  An idea I've been playing with is that most worlds with populations in the low hundreds of millions have only a few metropolitan centers capable of contributing to the interstellar economy.  Aside from these centers the rest of the world's population is scattered in minuscule and semi-isolated settlements trying to make a living with limited technological means under harsh environmental conditions.  These hinterlands provide basic necessities to the metropoles in exchange for interstellar goods.  A conqueror would only then need to occupy a few critical cities (or even one capital city) and not bother trying to keep control over the other scattered settlements.  This model doesn't quite work for planets with populations in the billions and is far from definitive but is a nice working place to start for a campaign.
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Baldur Mekorig

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #14 on: 18 June 2017, 12:02:33 »
So in your opinion would the Magistracy be an easier to pacify target?

The Magistracy have a history of beign less resistant with occupants with a light hand, like during the Reunification Wars. But also the commenst about the general population number and tech level of the planet in question are important. Also, take in count the numberlesss unnamed infantry regiments the houses uses to pacify and garrison recently occupied planets.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #15 on: 18 June 2017, 13:15:14 »
If we are going by Interstellar Ops (363) then pacification takes 2 to 3 months for a minor world and half a year for a major one.

Then it all depends on what your goal is. Pacifying as in "having more or less subdued most (but not all) resistance" is one thing but as in "let the people of this planet get in a new State" is another one.
The overall approval would vary according to the State the planet was first in, where it is located, if it has been well treated in the last decades...

The Magistracy have a history of beign less resistant with occupants with a light hand, like during the Reunification Wars.

And to turn their occupiers into Canopian supporters.
In turn they tested each Clan namesake
In trial against the ice hellion's mettle.
Each chased the ice hellion, hunting it down.
All faild to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said. "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance, Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1-5

Kovax

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #16 on: 19 June 2017, 11:04:31 »
To crush organized overt military opposition might take a couple of months to a couple of years.

To ferret out the remaining military opposition that has fallen back into the countryside or "gone underground" might take several more years.  During this time, you can probably run most of the production facilities at reduced output due to spotty supply of resources, occasional sabotage, work stoppages or slowdowns, security issues, and other problems.

To re-establish a government and institutions that the majority of the population is reasonably content to live with and "familiar with" might take decades or a lifetime.  During the early stages of this period, productivity would gradually ramp up back to normal, but "voluntary" military support may be somewhat lacking or unenthusiastic at best.

To make that planet consider itself an integral part of your empire could take a century or significantly longer.  Note, as an example, that the repercussions of reintegrating the South after the American Civil War are not completely healed over after 150+ years, and that wasn't even a separate country for more than a couple of years.

In cases where the borders shift constantly, there's probably little loyalty to any single faction, and it might not present as difficult of a problem to overcome those existing loyalties, but establishing any lasting loyalty to the new faction may still take decades or centuries.

From a "productivity" angle, it will require several months or a couple of years until the planet is pacified sufficiently to resume "useful" production; until then you may need to subsidize it for basic services.  After that, figure on a few percent increase in productivity per month, until it gradually returns to something approaching full output.  That percentage will depend to some degree on the amount of damage and on the inherent stability and viability of the planetary economy to begin with, and how much difference there is between the previous government and social structures and the new ones.

SCC

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #17 on: 24 June 2017, 06:06:42 »
Providing any good information for you is likely to get me into trouble with the mods because of politics.

greywolf79

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #18 on: 25 June 2017, 22:03:44 »
Providing any good information for you is likely to get me into trouble with the mods because of politics.

How so?
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Kitsune413

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #19 on: 26 June 2017, 00:56:15 »
If it's a Rasalhague world then hundreds of years is not long enough to pacify it.
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greywolf79

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Re: Capturing worlds
« Reply #20 on: 26 June 2017, 01:44:47 »
My alternate universe is going to have a new faction come from taking over a periphery power. The 3 we had narrowed it down to were the Marian Hegemony, Magistracy of Canopus, and Taurian Concordat. If the Marian Hegemony has no BattleMech production capacity in 3025 era (3000-3025) then it serves no use for the alternate universe time line... So that left Magistracy of Canopus and the Taurian Concordat... I figured it would be less likely to have the Taurian's be the one subjugated, I just wanted to confirm it.

Thanks everyone.
GreyWolf.


 

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