TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[pheonixstorm]

But it would hurt that particular claim. Which, after the other two claims against HBS are seen as baseless would get HBS and probably Weisman dropped as defendents. At least that is how I see it.

I truly believe HG went after HBS and Weisman to try and push the old FASA settlement as hard as possible and point all fingers for the classics/PGI unseen as his brainchild.

[Mech42ace]

What I find to be particularly interesting is HG's claim that the new Shadow Hawk is substantially similar to the "Destroid Spartan".

The new Shadow Hawk is, however, in fact quite similar to the old Shadow Hawk. Which is the titular mecha from "Fang of the Sun Dougram".

Dougram precedes Macross by about a year. So in essence, HG have either claimed that the Shadow Hawk is derivative of something that did not exist at the time it was designed, or that "their" Destroid Spartan is in fact derivative of Dougram and it is HG themselves who are infringing here.

I don't know whether this kind of patently preposterous argument by HG has any potential to damage their case... but I can only hope for a lot.

Interesting point... It'd be a good way to show that you can't copyright the aspects that make a certain humanoid mecha a humanoid, as they really do have to have two legs, and two arms, ect.
It probably won't have any serious effect on their case, but a man can hope... 

[YingJanshi]

I do wonder if the Atlas, Shadow Hawk, et al, were just place holders because HG expected HBS to release art for them and with the bringing of the suit HBS didnt? (Does that make any sense?)

[Wrangler]

I won't want to guess. We may have year or more until we find out what will accrue from it.

[VhenRa]

Anyone heard anything more on why Harmony Gold has filed suit against Tatsunoko now?

Because its... confusing me.

[Giovanni Blasini]

They did what? ???

[VhenRa]

https://www.open-public-records.com/court/california-23006746.htm

Filings against Tatsunoko....

[monbvol]

I haven't heard of that either.

In trying to find out I did stumble on some unconfirmed posts on other sites suggesting a court did determine Tatsunoko didn't have the rights to make any international distribution deals.

If true I'm pretty sure Harmony Gold has a deal with Big West(who were supposedly determined to actually have such rights along with Studio Nue) and thus wouldn't help our side too much unless a time element comes into play.

I'll have to look for a better source on that.

[VhenRa]

I haven't heard of that either.

In trying to find out I did stumble on some unconfirmed posts on other sites suggesting a court did determine Tatsunoko didn't have the rights to make any international distribution deals.

If true I'm pretty sure Harmony Gold has a deal with Big West(who were supposedly determined to actually have such rights along with Studio Nue) and thus wouldn't help our side too much unless a time element comes into play.

I'll have to look for a better source on that.

Nah, last time this came up... IIRC, a US court outright went "Japanese court doesn't have ability to tell Harmony Gold it doesn't have the rights." or "We don't recognise the authority of Japanese court." Or some such.

[glitterboy2098]

technically tatsunoko did have the rights. the court ruled that they had the rights to distribute only. but not to license out art, derivatives, etc. they gave HG full control, and then it turned out they didn't have full control to offer.

i suspect that if HG is filing against their own liscenser it is to get the legal limbo the international rights to SDF:macross are in sorted out.

[Pat Payne]

I haven't heard of that either.

Me neither. This is interesting and sounds like a seismic shift in the whole dynamic.

In trying to find out I did stumble on some unconfirmed posts on other sites suggesting a court did determine Tatsunoko didn't have the rights to make any international distribution deals.

 :o Again, a game-changer.

If true I'm pretty sure Harmony Gold has a deal with Big West(who were supposedly determined to actually have such rights along with Studio Nue) and thus wouldn't help our side too much unless a time element comes into play.

I tend to doubt it -- I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Big West has an absolute hate for HG due to HG's shenanigans that kept most of Macross off of the American market during the great Anime boom of the '90s and 2000s.

technically tatsunoko did have the rights. the court ruled that they had the rights to distribute only. but not to license out art, derivatives, etc. they gave HG full control, and then it turned out they didn't have full control to offer.

i suspect that if HG is filing against their own liscenser it is to get the legal limbo the international rights to SDF:macross are in sorted out.

That seems like a dangerous game, though. Since Tatsunoko is the licensor, what's to keep them from pulling the licenses for all three shows?

[marauder648]

Sorry for asking but who/what is Tatsunoko  and what do they do?

[ANS Kamas P81]

Tatsunoko Productions is one of the creators and developers behind the original Macross anime series that Robotech was partially created from.

[marauder648]

Ugh...HG needs to die in a litigational fire. 

[pheonixstorm]

To top it off some people are claiming that HG lost the rights to the other two shows as well but I can't find anything about it.. Too much rumor and not enough references.

[glitterboy2098]

they still have the rights to those. though only Genesis Climber MOSPEADA had anything beyond the anime to speak of in japan. Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross was basically a failed project in japan, and over here as part of robotech, it has been largely ignored by HG despite it being the middle segment and actually having the most setting building and important plot moments.

personally i suspect the lack of any real attempt to merchandise southern cross comes from the visual style, which is so different than the other two portions. SDC:southern cross started as a 'scifi Sengoku' drama, before getting completely rewritten into yet another "aliens invade" mecha series. but they kept the scifi samurai armor even as they dumped everything else. and their mecha designs are either not very memorable (most of the background stuff) or incredibly complex in transformation (the hovertanks and the transforming helicopter-jet.)

[SCC]

Tatsunoko Productions is one of the creators and developers behind the original Macross anime series that Robotech was partially created from.

Specifically Tatsunoko was brought on board halfway through production/airing of Macross because the original producer, Big West, ran out of money. Because of the nature of this deal, likely coupled with the fact that they didn't know how big Macross would end up being, who actually owned what was not spelled out in the agreement and it was during this time when who owned what was unclear that Tatsunoko signed their deal with HG. Things went to the courts in Japan and the courts ruled that some (most?) of what Tatsunoko sold to HG they didn't own, specifically for Macross they only owned the international distribution rights. This would, in theory, give HG the right to sue Tatsunoko for bad faith dealings.

I'm not too sure on the rights situation for Southern Cross, that was another Big West/Tatsunoko co-production.

[ColBosch]

Holy shit! This could be HUGE. God, I want to know what that's all about, but the Central District of California's web procedures are stuck right in the mid-90's.

So I've emailed Leonard French. Hey, there is no shame in turning to an expert. Sunday is his usual livestream day, but I think he's taking this week off. August, especially mid to late in the month, is when judges are most likely are to take their vacations, so many lawyers do the same.

[Feenix74]

It does sort of point towards the Not-Named Corporation trying to clear the decks for the movie to go into production and release without any legal grey areas about the IP.

[pheonixstorm]

Yeah it would be nice to know what is up with HG and Tatsunoko.

On the other hand, I don't recall if he ever mentioned the response from PGI/HBS about the status of HGs actual rights as addressed in the amended filing. Don't think he did say anything but that is something many are wondering about. More or less how does the ruling against Tatsunoko in Japan affect whatever contract HG had with them, IF it has any bearing on this case...

It does sort of point towards the Not-Named Corporation trying to clear the decks for the movie to go into production and release without any legal grey areas about the IP.

Based on what was posted about the movie license when WB held it, WB had to obtain the movie rights from one company and the character rights (no mention on the visuals) from another company.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Holy shit! This could be HUGE. God, I want to know what that's all about, but the Central District of California's web procedures are stuck right in the mid-90's.

So I've emailed Leonard French. Hey, there is no shame in turning to an expert. Sunday is his usual livestream day, but I think he's taking this week off. August, especially mid to late in the month, is when judges are most likely are to take their vacations, so many lawyers do the same.

Honestly?  I'd bet serious money this sudden push is pressure from Sony to demonstrate that they have complete rights and ownership to all of Robotech, in every format, and that there can't be any legal challenges.  Remember the nightmare between Warner and Fox once Watchmen had been made and just before its release, that pushed it back a few months IIRC?  Considering the "seven ways to sunday" that the macross IP has gone, I daresay Sony's got the right idea to either put all the rights in one organized basket - or else walk.

personally i suspect the lack of any real attempt to merchandise southern cross comes from the visual style, which is so different than the other two portions. SDC:southern cross started as a 'scifi Sengoku' drama, before getting completely rewritten into yet another "aliens invade" mecha series. but they kept the scifi samurai armor even as they dumped everything else. and their mecha designs are either not very memorable (most of the background stuff) or incredibly complex in transformation (the hovertanks and the transforming helicopter-jet.)

Southern Cross was also relatively unique - it was actually humanity invading another species' homeworld, and said species (the Zor) returning to reclaim it.  It was re-edited by Macek, up to and including altering the cels to show only one star for the system, so that it was here on earth.  Not a popular choice for Japan, and the ending...suffered due to cancellation, budget cuts, and quite likely literally trying to finish producing the anime before the doors were locked on the studio that night...

[pheonixstorm]

So read this page in a little more detail and... well, not entirely sure. I *think* it might be old copyright filings by HG but it doesn't specify exactly WHAT they are..

Macross.

Type of Work: Visual Material

Registration Number / Date: VAu000534107 / 2002-05-17

Title: Macross.

Description: Drawings.

Copyright Claimant: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue & Kabushiki Kaisha Big West

Date of Creation: 1982

Authorship on Application: artwork: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue, employer for hire.

Names: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue

Kabushiki Kaisha Big West

[abou]

Just saw this update and... holy crap!

Is this really happening? I get the idea that HG needs to get its act together if Sony is going to make a movie, but this screams of desperation. Unless they are looking for a quick settlement, they have to know this is playing with fire. I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?

[ColBosch]

So read this page in a little more detail and... well, not entirely sure. I *think* it might be old copyright filings by HG but it doesn't specify exactly WHAT they are..

That's old information. You can ignore it for now.

Just saw this update and... holy crap!

Is this really happening? I get the idea that HG needs to get its act together if Sony is going to make a movie, but this screams of desperation. Unless they are looking for a quick settlement, they have to know this is playing with fire. I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?

They might feel they have a real case here. Without knowing what they're claiming, I couldn't say. But in general, licensees don't sue IP owners unless something has gone very wrong. If you misstep, your license will likely go away.

[marauder648]

Just saw this update and... holy crap!

Is this really happening? I get the idea that HG needs to get its act together if Sony is going to make a movie, but this screams of desperation. Unless they are looking for a quick settlement, they have to know this is playing with fire. I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?

So I assume this is a good thing...right?  I'm a bit lost with all thats going on.

[ColBosch]

So I assume this is a good thing...right?  I'm a bit lost with all thats going on.

It's a thing. We do not know if it is good or not.

[beachhead1985]

Can one of the experts here tell me how they judge these things? I watched the video and he kept mentioning it going to jury....

And I couldn't helping thinking of twelve of my mom being shown pictures of big stompy robots and her thinking; "they all look the same to me".

I'm terrible for this, because I taught AFV recognition for years and I don't even think most of the Russian T-Series look alike. So I know from teaching people like my mom, the normal people don't process visual information on combat vehicles the same way I do.

[ColBosch]

That's exactly the point. During the trial, both sides will attempt to show how the mecha are similar or different. You want average Joes and Janes, because everyone knows that experts can spot differences, but it's the general public you're concerned with.

And don't sell your mom short. My mom can recognize an Abrams vs. a Challenger 2.

[Koshirou]

I mean, they can't be that... dumb, can they?

They have submitted a design that was originally made a year before the design it is allegedly "derivative" of as evidence.

Judge for yourself.

[Koshirou]

And I couldn't helping thinking of twelve of my mom being shown pictures of big stompy robots and her thinking; "they all look the same to me".

Yeah, but if it does turn out that alls stompy robots look alike to the jury, the smart move is to show the jury some stompy robots that are definitely not derived from HG's Macross designs (because they predate them, as I already mentioned for one example) and then arrive at the obvious conclusion that "being a stompy robot" is not something HG can have any rights to, and let that be the end of it.