Author Topic: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game  (Read 3756 times)

Dunia

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ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« on: 13 August 2017, 15:04:25 »
I hate to be negative but I really try to like the game, thogh it is really, really hard to actually understand the various aspects of the lore from the main book and to understand all stuff during character creation you need to buy some 10 additional books it feels like.

No wonder this game is unpopular in various gameclubs heere in Scandinavia that I am in contact with. The worst thing is that there is no additional books planned for ATOW that will help new layers/GMs understand the lore annd it only caters to those who have played the boardgame/old RPGs or ages.

So what do the following stuff actually mean and how to se them in-game:

[Page 59] (Fixed Xps) - Interest/Clan Remembrance
[Page 59] (Nova Cat) - Interest/Nova Cat Vision Quest
[Page 59] (Snow Raven) - Compulsion/Raven Pride
[Page 59] (Wolf) - Compulsion/Wolf Pride   
[Page 59] (Wolf) - Wolf clan also includes Clan Wolf-in-exile
[Page 60] (Blood Spirit) - Compulsion/Blood Spirit Fanaticism   
[Page 60] (Cloud Cobra) - Compulsion/Religious Faith (What Religion is this?)
[Page 60] (Coyote) - Interest/Coyote Rituals (What rituals are these?)   
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Compulsion/Fire Mandrill Fanaticism
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Compulsion/Kindraa Fanaticism
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Enemy/Rival Kindraa
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Protocol/Kindraa
[Page 60] (Gol. Scorpions) - Compulsion/Necrosia Addiction
[Page 60] (Gol. SCorpions) - Compulsion/Nostalgic (what are they Nostaligic about?)
[Page 60] (Star Adder) - Compulsion/Clan Honor (Is it the clans in general or Star Adders only and what seperates this from fanatacism above?)
[Page 60] (Star Adder) - Compulsion/Adder Arrogance or Compulsion/Burrock Forever! (Huh!!?)
[Page 60] (Trueborn) - Clan Honor (Is this general honor of being of the clans or just your own clan)

Other thing that irks me is that the history capter is vary vague with why the Sccession Wars started, what happened after the Clan Invasio and why the Jihad and how it was so successful?

Just hard for people like me who has not been arond for 10-30 years in this universe to nderstand it all from this book. And most handbooks (houses/comstar/periphery/Clans) do only exist in pdfs now. So it feels that Catalyst Game Labs do not care for new players and see them as a bother as both ATOW and Introboxes are hard to get/pout of print and they dont bother doing boos that yo can buy that helps new players.




   










 
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Dunia

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #1 on: 13 August 2017, 15:50:54 »
Also:

1) What would it cost to travel to another starsystem / jmp and how long wold it take approx?

2) What would it cost to take a mech with you or a tank (per ton/tonnage category)?

very little info about sch things in the gamebook /Companion
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #2 on: 13 August 2017, 18:10:10 »
The interests and compulsions can be frustrating in that they're so open ended... but in my view they're no more (or less) frustrating than concepts common in other games like alignment.  How often do D&D players argue over what is Lawful vs Chaotic, for example?

Compulsions and Interests are by design open ended.  They can be as narrow or as broad as the player and GM wish.  If you're the GM and you don't own every BattleTech book out there, feel free to just say what the various lore-linked aspects of the game mean in your game.  If you say that Cloud Cobras have Religious Faith in one Clan-unique mishmash of ancient Inner Sphere religions, go for it.  If you'd rather that each Cloud Cobra picks a specific religion to specialize in, go for it.  Whatever the books say, when they contradict the GM, are wrong.    You needn't worry about sticking to the lore as closely as possible or if a player knows more about the setting than you do... there are lots of RPGs out there with rich settings where the player may be more familiar with the canon than the GM.  But Rule Zero applies across all RPGs: The GM is right.  If the player cites canon at the GM and the canon is inconvenient for your campaign, just tell him that's not how it is in your version of the Inner Sphere.

Maelwys

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #3 on: 13 August 2017, 19:09:48 »
One the other hand, last I checked, the various D&D style alignments have small blurbs on what each alignment is. Pathfinder dedicates 2-3 pages on the various alignments, including detailing what each ones is, as well as the various axis (Chaos vs Law, Good vs Evil).

It is an interesting point about the Compulsions that I hadn't considered before, but it does mesh with some of what we've seen in other BT books at times, mainly that they seem to be written for people that already have a grasp on what's going on.

I can't recall if there's a universal "primer" floating around out there, but I think maybe there was supposed to be at one time...but really. There isn't much to tell you what makes a Goliath Scorpion different from a Fire Mandrill, and the things that distinguish them would be pretty confusing for someone that didn't have anything detailing it.

skiltao

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #4 on: 14 August 2017, 19:42:17 »
Dunia, you're not alone in thinking that ATOW is flawed. Please continue to ask questions as you come across more things which seem to be missing or unclear--I will help when I can; and if Catalyst Game Labs ever does aim an RPG product at new players, it will be useful to see what players actually need.

1) What would it cost to travel to another starsystem / jmp and how long wold it take approx?

2) What would it cost to take a mech with you or a tank (per ton/tonnage category)?

It typically takes a JumpShip a week to charge its battery for a jump. (Longer at a dim star, shorter at a bright star.) Sometimes there are DropShips waiting at the jump point; they dock immediately and wait. Sometimes there are DropShips on a planet; it typically takes a week to travel from a planet to the Jump Point. Schedules are often arranged in advance.

In the Inner Sphere, DropShips pay the JumpShip 50kCB per jump. Each passenger typically pays the DropShip 5kCB per jump; cargo is typically 500 CB per ton per jump. Luxurious accomodations, or faster handoffs between JumpShips, can cost more. The Clans don't use money, all assets move according to the will of the Khan (or whoever the Khan delegates authority to).

[Edit: Haha WHOOPS, no, I'm tired. That should be, what, 500 CB for a passenger and 100 CB per ton of cargo. /Edit]

[Page 59] (Fixed Xps) - Interest/Clan Remembrance

"The Remembrance" is an epic poem telling the history of the Clans. Each Clan has their own version, emphasizing their own interests. I'm not sure how to use this skill in play. Maybe you can quote the Remembrance to temporarily stun or shame another Clan character, or to buoy or defend one, or to negate someone else's use of the Remembrance. Or to make a poetic moment even more poetic, since the Clans appreciate artistry.

Quote
[Page 59] (Nova Cat) - Interest/Nova Cat Vision Quest
[Page 60] (Coyote) - Interest/Coyote Rituals (What rituals are these?)   
[Page 60] (Cloud Cobra) - Compulsion/Religious Faith (What Religion is this?)
[Page 60] (Gol. Scorpions) - Compulsion/Necrosia Addiction
[Page 60] (Gol. SCorpions) - Compulsion/Nostalgic (what are they Nostaligic about?)

I imagine ceremonial skills end up being similar to Protocol. (I suppose they could also give you insight into an NPC's actions, which is about the only use I can think of for the "Interest: Philosophy" skills.)
  • Many of Clan Cloud Cobra's members belong to "cloisters." Each cloister follows a different faith. (Well, to the extent that the faith is compatible with being a Clan Warrior, anyways.) There's real world faiths, some of BattleTech's made-up faiths, and room to insert your own.
  • I believe the Coyote rituals are meant to be patterned on Native American rituals, though I don't remember any specifics.
  • I believe Nova Cat Vision Quests are also inspired by Native American rituals. In the fiction they generally have a prophetic function. You could use them that way in play too, or to gain insight into information the player already has, or insight into how to gain new information, or just as a general ceremonial protocol skill.
  • Necrosia is a dangerous psychoactive beverage used to prove the strength of Goliath Scorpion warriors. Some Goliath Scorpions, called "seekers," use the visions it induces to guide them to relics of the Star League. These relics give the Clan unique insight into the Star League. They aren't actually nostalgic for the Star League, at least not anymore than the other Clans are; the only way I can think to play the Compulsion/Nostalgia is as a chance of being "lost in reverence" when in the presence of an unfamiliar relic.
Quote
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Enemy/Rival Kindraa
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Protocol/Kindraa

The Fire Mandrills are divided into uncooperative mini-clans called Kindraa.

Quote
[Page 59] (Snow Raven) - Compulsion/Raven Pride
[Page 59] (Wolf) - Compulsion/Wolf Pride   
[Page 60] (Blood Spirit) - Compulsion/Blood Spirit Fanaticism   
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Compulsion/Fire Mandrill Fanaticism
[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Compulsion/Kindraa Fanaticism
[Page 60] (Star Adder) - Compulsion/Adder Arrogance or Compulsion/Burrock Forever! (Huh!!?)
[Page 59] (Wolf) - Wolf clan also includes Clan Wolf-in-exile

A daily part of Clan life is playing on your opponent's pride, provoking them into an embarassing outburst or into starting battles they can't win. Warriors from competing Clans routinely try to goad each other into disadvantageous positions.
  • The guy who founded The Clans chose to join Clan Wolf. It's traditionally one of the largest and most militarily successful. Then it split; one half is still called Clan Wolf, the other half is called Clan Wolf-in-Exile because it defected to the Inner Sphere.
  • The Blood Spirits and Fire Mandrills are small and could be wiped out, which makes them tightly-knit and their warriors difficult for other Clans to cooperate with or assimilate.
  • The Star Adders are another large and successful Clan. They absorbed the Burrocks, who used to be a separate Clan.
  • Clan Snow Raven is the uncontested master of naval warfare.
Quote
[Page 60] (Star Adder) - Compulsion/Clan Honor (Is it the clans in general or Star Adders only and what seperates this from fanatacism above?)
[Page 60] (Trueborn) - Clan Honor (Is this general honor of being of the clans or just your own clan)

"Clan Honor" is your personal honor and commitment to Clan ways and Clan society, separate from your attachment to any individual Clan. The Star Adders put extra points into it.

Quote
Other thing that irks me is that the history capter is vary vague with why the Sccession Wars started, what happened after the Clan Invasio

I think parts of that summary were copied from an older product, where they were trying to move players into the "modern" era as quickly as possible.

In 2750, the Lord of the Star League was assassinated. His heir was only a child, and so each House Lord took the opportunity to aggrandize their own realms. Tensions rose. When the heir came of age, he and all his family were killed by a Usurper. The war against the Usurper ravaged the administrative, scientific, economic and cultural heart of the Star League. The glue which held the Star League together was all burned away, leaving the ravaged heartworlds ripe for the taking.

The Clan Invasion stopped advancing in 3052, but the fighting on that front continued. The Clans began fighting amongst each other too (Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon almost killed each other), which is why you don't see their territories expand.

Quote
and why the Jihad and how it was so successful?

Those answers are a little contentious.

My understanding is that the Jihad wasn't actually as successful as it first seems. I think the explanation that people have settled on is that the Word of Blake had secretly sent a small army to conquer the Clan homeworlds, and sent gifts to every House capital, but then a comedy of errors (and possibly intentional sabotage) turned the Inner Sphere against them.

The Word of Blake had been running the shipyards for the Inner Sphere's greatest naval power for twenty years, and they made good use of assassinations and hidden staging bases, but a goodly part of the war was just the regular nations (not the Word of Blake) fighting each other.
« Last Edit: 14 August 2017, 20:19:29 by skiltao »
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skiltao

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #5 on: 14 August 2017, 19:56:17 »
If you've seen a show called Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, the Clans are a lot like the Nietzscheans, except that Clanners generally have less guile and don't tell intentional untruths.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #6 on: 14 August 2017, 19:59:24 »
If you've seen a show called Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda, the Clans are a lot like the Nietzscheans, except that Clanners generally have less guile and don't tell intentional untruths.

The so-bad-it's-good movie Robot Jox is actually a coincidentally spot on depiction of Clan culture.

abou

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #7 on: 14 August 2017, 21:52:28 »
AToW really lets you think outside the box with interests and skills. By all means, you are right that there is not nearly enough support and you need to have a significant amount of knowledge to really play the game. A framework or guide to get you in the right mind would be excellent. Dungeons & Dragons by comparison starts off fairly easy: explore a dungeon, kill goblins, profit. BattleTech is much more nuanced and a straight up fight is more likely to get you killed.

In regards to the Interest/Remembrance skill, consider this:

The Clans, despite outwardly claiming to be an apolitical meritocracy where might makes right, they are really, really political. Now, if you are bad at that you might get laughed at (at best) or stomped (at worst -- think Clan Mongoose). In a personal/political conflict, an astute Clansman with knowledge of his clan's Remembrance could sway an argument or persuade fellow warriors or caste members to his or her side. It really comes to play when you do the role playing part of a role playing game.

Lamont-Cranston

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #8 on: 15 August 2017, 04:02:01 »
[Page 59] (Fixed Xps) - Interest/Clan Remembrance

The Clans have a history of the exile of the SLDF and the founding of the Clans known as the Remembrance, its a kinda chanted oral history. And now you're gonna ask whats the SLDF and why did they go into exile.

[Page 59] (Nova Cat) - Interest/Nova Cat Vision Quest

Members of the Nova Cat clan take spirit quests.

[Page 59] (Snow Raven) - Compulsion/Raven Pride

Members of the Raven clan are very proud.

[Page 59] (Wolf) - Compulsion/Wolf Pride   

As are the Wolves.

[Page 59] (Wolf) - Wolf clan also includes Clan Wolf-in-exile

The Wolf clan split into two several years after the failed invasion of the Inner Sphere.

[Page 60] (Blood Spirit) - Compulsion/Blood Spirit Fanaticism   

The Blood Spirit clan can be very fanatic about the supremecy of their clan and don't like outsiders

[Page 60] (Cloud Cobra) - Compulsion/Religious Faith (What Religion is this?)

Any, the Cloud Cobra clan accepts all faiths

[Page 60] (Coyote) - Interest/Coyote Rituals (What rituals are these?)   

per sarna.net: "The Native American traditions of Clan Coyote trace directly back to Dana Kufahl, who infused her Clan with the wisdom she learned as a child and a particular reverence for its totem animal. Such traditions were practiced mostly by the warrior caste though, and for the majority these rites had since lost their spiritual significance. While there was no requirement for Coyote warriors to partake in these ceremonies, those looking to climb up the chain of command willingly took part in them."

[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Compulsion/Fire Mandrill Fanaticism

Same as Blood Spirit

[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Compulsion/Kindraa Fanaticism

The Mandrills are also fanatic about their particular cliques within the clan

[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Enemy/Rival Kindraa

To the point of being enemies

[Page 60] (Fire Mandrill) - Protocol/Kindraa

How to operate within each kindraa

[Page 60] (Gol. Scorpions) - Compulsion/Necrosia Addiction

They use a poison from the goliath scorpion to have visions and this can be addictive

[Page 60] (Gol. SCorpions) - Compulsion/Nostalgic (what are they Nostaligic about?)

Nostalgic for the Star League Defense Force

[Page 60] (Star Adder) - Compulsion/Clan Honor (Is it the clans in general or Star Adders only and what seperates this from fanatacism above?)

the separation is the fanaticism focuses on their clan as supreme.

[Page 60] (Star Adder) - Compulsion/Adder Arrogance or Compulsion/Burrock Forever! (Huh!!?)

The Star Adders absorbed the Burrocks in the 3060s, many Adders feel very victorious and surviving Burrocks feel resentful.

[Page 60] (Trueborn) - Clan Honor (Is this general honor of being of the clans or just your own clan)

A general.

Your best source for information on the clans would be the two clan sourcebooks, yes you were right there are a lot, Warden Clans and Crusader Clans. They are from the 1990s so they are out of print and also out of date for events of the Jihad and beyond but they will fill you in on the history of the clans.

You can also try sarna.net the battletech wiki. I had to check for what the Coyote rituals were and its extensive.
« Last Edit: 15 August 2017, 04:09:35 by Lamont-Cranston »

monbvol

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #9 on: 15 August 2017, 14:59:53 »
Well you are not entirely wrong that AToW could use more support but I actually don't think it is that much worse than any other system tied to an official setting if you approach it in a minimalist fashion.

Take D&D or Pathfinder.  Both have official settings but neither book goes into them at all.  You need a lot of supplements for them too before you actually get a grasp on on the official setting.

Now AToW is a bit overly tied into a player needing at least some knowledge of the official setting and leaves tons of things out that new players and GMs could really use to be familiar with the setting and to adjudicate things that I do admit make it notably harder for said new players and GMs to get to grips with.

So I will echo some of the above advice, don't be overly concerned about getting the official setting right.  AToW despite it's shortcomings does offer a great deal of adaptability.

First few games don't even worry about the Great Houses or Clans.  Just put together some minimalistic mercenaries who don't care who they fight for and against as long as the get paid and ease into the bigger picture at your own pace.

Also to echo previously mentioned sentiments feel free to ask questions or for advice.

guardiandashi

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #10 on: 15 August 2017, 20:24:24 »
The easiest way to look at an interest, is as a hobby or lore you are interested in. It's a kind of catch all skill like career. The descriptor after the skill explains what the specific interest is.
To use some examples, if I was using the atow rules to make myself, I would have intrest rpgs with sub interests of battletech, palladium, d and d etc.

Since I work as a it guy I would have career pc repair technician if there isn't already a specific skill to cover it.

I hope that helps 

monbvol

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #11 on: 15 August 2017, 23:16:30 »
Interest can also cover general knowledge type stuff.  Like Interest/Star League History lets a character know stuff about the history of the Star League.

Minchandre

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #12 on: 26 August 2017, 12:50:11 »
I'd also like to add that the Clans in particular are probably very challenging for new players and gamemasters.

The Great Houses and Periphery powers are fairly easy to understand, with each being consciously modeled on a real world culture, populated by "fairly normal people", and controlled through a fairly straightforward pseudo-feudal decentralized sysem (with a few exceptions).  By contrast, the Clans and Comstar (and Word of Blake) are much more alien cultures, with the latter two being some sort of weird religious/corporate dealy modeled somewhat on the Medieval Catholic church by way of conspiracy theories about the Templars, and the former being a classic "scifi alien culture", a strict warrior-oriented caste system formed from a strange amalgam of several real-world philosophies and stripped of old cultures (except where it isn't...).

Until everyone gets their feet on the ground and becomes more familiar with the territory, the Clans and Comstar should be reserved as NPC, mysterious enemies or inscrutable quasi-allies - which is exactly how they were in Battletech as a whole when first introduced.

William J. Pennington

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Re: ATOW: It sucks to be a new player/GM with this game
« Reply #13 on: 27 August 2017, 09:56:58 »
Knowledge about a certain faction in a certain timeline? Era books and field manuals for that time period.

Yes, many of the books only exist in PDF's. That just makes them cheaper, and that is a form of availability. Yuo can have them printed off if need be. Reality of sales probably means certain books wont see print again, because they woudl be money losers. The future for many games, not just ATOW, is some releases just being exclusively PDF, or print on demand, either fromt he start or after an initial release.

So the Various Clan Pride or Compulsions are goign to be able to worked out rather quickly,and even if lacking, some thingcan be immediately figured out just from the basic information in the book.  Pride is going to indicate a focus on the Clans pride, belief in its superority, willingness to act for its best interests, or reacting poorly to slights upon it.

Logistics Questions: depending on what level you are looking at, thereis Campaign and Strategic Ops, or even Interstellar ops. Find a related value, then make a judgement call. In the end, the only right value for your game universe is the one you decide.

Between those, if the answer isn't in there, or the existing ATOW books, ask here, or wing it. Not every sapect of the universe is detailed.

If you want the players to be broke, or finding it hard to move things, then make the  cost high. If you want the players to move about without worries for money, make it low. Better yet, remove all accounting, and just make the challenges related to travel putrely roleplay. A good negotiation roll, use of persuasion, charm, a contact means they get a quick, direct trip. A bad one, or  failing to utilize the above, and the trip is long, slow, and low quality, or some of their stuff is lost.

Trivial numbers for mundane expenses arent important in a RPG. Don't burden players with a lot of accounting.


 

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