Wolf's Dragoons and the new toys they bought with them

[Phobos101]

So I've been reading Wolves on the Border, which led me to some further reading about the Dragoons, and I've been digging around trying to find a list of the 'mechs introduced by the dragoons which were extinct in the IS/didn't exist prior to their arrival. Off the top of my head I can think of the Shogun and Annihilator, and maybe some versions of the Flea? Would appreciate if anyone can point me in the direction of the sourcebook I should be looking at, or even if you can think of any other examples.

[worktroll]

FAS1631 Sourcebook Wolf's Dragoons has pretty much all the pre-invasion details, but doesn't cover their origins.

[Liam's Ghost]

As worktroll says, the wolf's dragoons sourcebook covers the mechs they brought with them.

Off the top of my head, the Imp and Anihilator were completely new to the inner sphere, and the Firefly, Falcon, Shogun, and Hoplite were previously thought extinct.

The rest were either acquired from inner sphere manufacturers or developed after the dragoons arrived.

If you're interested in the real origins of the Dragoons' unique mechs, the Operation Klondike sourcebook covers them in their original, pre-dragoons form.

[glitterboy2098]

Star League era designs they revived: (where designs that were extinct or nearly so before they arrived with large numbers of them)
Flea, Hoplite, Shogun, Falcon, Firefly

"unknown" designs (which were prototypes when Kerensky left, or developed after the exodus)
Annihilator, Imp

Designs the Dragoons helped develop after their arrival in the IS
Marauder II

this does not include the post-3055 stuff like the Gallowglas (which they helped design) or the War Dog (which they helped get turned from recovered plans to actual hardware)


it is also worth noting that the Dragoons used versions of the Flea, Hoplite, Shogun, Falcon, Firefly that did not match records of those mech's use by the star league, as well as variants of the more common mechs (like the Archer) that were found nowhere else in the IS. which only added to the mystery surrounding where they came from.

[SCC]

Personally I've always wondered why ALL of their 'Mechs where equipped with intro tech only, it's a bit strange.

[Geont]

Personally I've always wondered why ALL of their 'Mechs where equipped with intro tech only, it's a bit strange.

They got bad info about state of IS. So they had uncommon and very rare mechs but with technology that mostly was standard for IS when they arrived.

[Liam's Ghost]

Flea,

The Flea never went extinct.

Personally I've always wondered why ALL of their 'Mechs where equipped with intro tech only, it's a bit strange.

The original Dragoons Shogun had CASE. It's not much, but it is there.

[glitterboy2098]

The Flea never went extinct.

it was however extremely rare until the Dragoons arrived with a bunch of them. (per TRO:3050)
Earthworks stopped making them early in the succession wars, and the Trooper/Flea was never very popular even when it was being produced.
It took the Dragoons arriving to see it revived, as they worked a deal with Earthworks to have a line set up to make more for the Dragoon's use. it wouldn't see much use outside the Dragoons until after the 3040's, when the dragoon's contract had ended, and Earthworks started building them for the Capcon (and as the Dragoons apparently sold off older versions to select merc units)

[Phobos101]

FAS1631 Sourcebook Wolf's Dragoons has pretty much all the pre-invasion details, but doesn't cover their origins.

Not sure why I didn't look in here sooner! now  I feel dumb :P exactly what I was after. Cheers WT.

Personally I've always wondered why ALL of their 'Mechs where equipped with intro tech only, it's a bit strange.

Are they any better optimized than your average introtech clunker? I've never used any of them in a game myself.

[Sir Chaos]

Are they any better optimized than your average introtech clunker? I've never used any of them in a game myself.

Not really, IMHO. It was just the utter shock of somebody, much less mere mercenaries rather than a Great House, field not one but several ALL-NEW MECH DESIGNS that got the Inner Sphere´s collective knickers in a twist.

[glitterboy2098]

Personally I've always wondered why ALL of their 'Mechs where equipped with intro tech only, it's a bit strange.

because they knew that showing up with star league level technology or full clantech would make them stand out too much. so they retrofitted most of their mechs down to not include them. they did leave a few units with more advanced tech (like leaving CASE in, or the implication they were using MAD-1R's with CASE and FerroFib at one point), but generally it was stuff that didn't make their tech advantage blindingly obvious. they did use some clan tech covertly.. clan medical knowledge for example is heavily implied, and we know they arranged covert production of support role Omni-vehicles (though using IS tech)

remember they were meant as spies, to get a better picture of the state of the inner sphere. they clans had some intel on the IS, thanks to capturing pirates and refugees and stuff that had traveled out to the region the clan homeworlds are in, but all of that was third hand and years if not decades out of date.

they goofed on a lot of the specific models, mainly because they didn't know that some star league era designs were almost extinct, and other designs had never made production prior to the exodus, but they probably figured no one would find it odd.. not realizing that no new designs had been developed in the IS for the better part of 2 centuries. but since they had massive amounts of star league hardware to draw on from the brian caches in the homeworlds, and not a lot of the successor states hardware, they had little choice but use a lot of SLDF designs.

as it was, in the novel Wolfpack we find out they actually did show up with the full star league tech, including Warships.. and after they discovered that all of that had been lost to the IS, they refit what they could, and then  cached everything else in the deep periphery. something they didn't break out until after the Clans arrived.

[SCC]

because they knew that showing up with star league level technology or full clantech would make them stand out too much. so they retrofitted most of their mechs down to not include them. they did leave a few units with more advanced tech (like leaving CASE in, or the implication they were using MAD-1R's with CASE and FerroFib at one point), but generally it was stuff that didn't make their tech advantage blindingly obvious. they did use some clan tech covertly.. clan medical knowledge for example is heavily implied, and we know they arranged covert production of support role Omni-vehicles (though using IS tech)

But how did they know that SL tech would raise problems? Remember the Clans gave them several WarShips

[glitterboy2098]

because once they were close to the IS they sent scouts ahead to get a closer look and update their starting intel. thus why they cached their warships and other advanced systems. it wouldn't take much looking to find out that the IS had lost a lot of tech, and that anything other than introtech was going ot attract more notice then they wanted.

[Liam's Ghost]

It's also worth mentioning that warships aren't, strictly speaking, star league technology. The majority of warship specific technologies date back to the age of war or before, even predating the battlemech itself. Their extinction in the inner sphere was as much due to infrastructure loss as technological decline.

It would be easy to assume, with such limited access to intelligence, that the general presence of some age of war level technologies (introductory mechs, aerofighters, and combat vehicles) could indicate that others remained as well. The clans simply didn't know how far the inner sphere had fallen, or how little progress they'd made in recovering.

[Daryk]

Or how much interference that recovery faced...

[GarageBay9]

Here is a real easter egg: Alpha regiment, Charlie Battalion, Branson's Company, Assault lance... includes a Behemoth.  How about THAT for a "What the f......" moment on the battlefield in 3025.

Who thought sending a Stone Rhino back with a covert force was a good idea?  Even the Matar certainly was not what you would call "low profile", and a Stone Rhino would never pass as one.

[beachhead1985]

Here is a real easter egg: Alpha regiment, Charlie Battalion, Branson's Company, Assault lance... includes a Behemoth.  How about THAT for a "What the f......" moment on the battlefield in 3025.

Who thought sending a Stone Rhino back with a covert force was a good idea?  Even the Matar certainly was not what you would call "low profile", and a Stone Rhino would never pass as one.

I think that was probably meant as one of the BNH-7N Behemoths of the original Battledroids release.

I could be wrong, but I do not think the WD sourcebook is contemporaneous to the original source of the Clan Stone Rhino, which I believe to be TRO: 3055.

[glitterboy2098]

yes, it would be a Battledroid's reference. TRO3055 was in 1992, while the Wolfs Dragoons sourcebook was 1989. the original battledroids (aka battletech 1st ed) was in 1984.

that said, i would love to see an official record sheet for an Introtech heavily modified Stone Rhino, with a weapons loadout recalling the battledroids visual. since a Stone Rhino is standard engine, structure, and armor, it shouldn't require as much refittign as other clan mechs might.

certainly the Battledroids version has some similarity to the Reseen miniature.

[Phobos101]

It would be interesting to know to what extent the idea of the clans - and he dragoons' connection to them - had crystalised at the time of writing of Wolves on the Border and the WD sourcebook.

[worktroll]

Apocryphal, I'm afraid, but totally planned all along.

From memory of being told by people in the know, the Clan invasion was planned out at the point where the 4th War was plotted, and you can see snippets - Primus Adrienne Sims' (??) "visions" of wild animals beyond the sphere, the extinct designs brought back by the Dragoons, even - and I'll have to quickly check, and there it is, Wolfes on the Border, 3rd Jan 3028:

“In conclave we have deliberated, trothkin. Sealed and bonded, I stand as Oathmaster. The rede you have spoken is my will. Thus shall it stand until we shall fall.”

A chorus of voices answered, “Seyla!”

Sound familiar? :)

So no, I can't definitely name names & dates, but I think there's enough evidence to take it as planned.

[glitterboy2098]

according to Stackpole, the exact details were still up in the air, but the "from kerensky's descendants in the periphery" was always part of the plan.

[roosterboy]

From memory of being told by people in the know, the Clan invasion was planned out at the point where the 4th War was plotted, and you can see snippets - Primus Adrienne Sims' (??) "visions" of wild animals beyond the sphere

That was not mentioned until the ComStar SB, which was published after the BoK trilogy gave us the Clans.

[worktroll]

The surmise being the roots for both BoK & C* SB being laid in a common period, prior to each.

[Colt Ward]

Honestly, one of the disappointing things from the Dragoons is the lack of what they field among the secondline forces of the Clans- where you would have expected it to come from . . . even combing all the caches, some of that equipment would have had to be new build- especially modules to lower it from the SL tech it had when it was mothballed.

IMO the Gallowglas 1 is really a rebuild to downgrade the Guillotine IIC with the arms swapped and the arm's larges made mediums.

[Phobos101]

Sound familiar? :)

So reading that chapter was actually what prompted me to post this thread :D

[Col Toda]

The only extinct unit they brought back that was very nice is the Lion Drop Ships . Other than that the aforementioned 3050s designs and advances

[BATTLEMASTER]

Did the Dragoons bring along any front line omnimechs and store them in the Periphery just in case?

[haesslich]

Did the Dragoons bring along any front line omnimechs and store them in the Periphery just in case?

No. Those were primarily for trueborns, of which only Natasha was Bloodnamed and distinguished. The Dragoons were there to scout, and Clan Omnis would be a dead giveaway that they weren't Spheroids.

Per the novels and source books, they were outfitted from the oldest caches, which wouldn't have front line Omnis. They only for blueprints and manufacturing specifications, and those only came at the last meeting with Khan Kerlin Ward when he ordered them to cut off ties.

[snewsom2997]

I've always been curious how they explained their medical technology. Arguably it exceeded Comstar and MoC healthcare. They appeared to run medical facilities on the planets they garrisoned, and were not incredibly picky about actually helping civilians, not to mention the legions of orphans they took in during the 4th war. The Kell kids were basically decanted, though Wolf and Kell had a gentlemen's backroom agreement.

[glitterboy2098]

i don't think that they ever demonstrated anything obviously superior tech wise (none of the regrowing organs the clans could do for example) but instead their doctors were just really skilled and able to perform medical care that in the IS would be more commonly the provenance of the highest classes, the most prestigious medical facilities. a merc unit could conceivably pull that off.. it would just be really difficult and expensive. but since "expensive, and highly trained" sums up so many other aspects of the dragoons, i doubt it looked any more suspicious than their showing up with mechs no one had seen before or their sheer size and skill.

most of their really advanced tech (like the invitro techniques that allowed Phelan) only seem to appear after they got Outreach. it is possible that much of the systems for those were part of the data Khan Ward gave them in the last supply run, alongside the change in orders and the plans for clantech weapons and mechs. certainly the change in mission would have made the addition of a true sibko system something logical. the easiest way to ensure the Dragoons could train the IS to fight the clans would be to make the Dragoons a microcosm of the clans. losing that identity due to a lack of clan style training in the ranks would make the job a lot harder.

it is clear in the works about them that the IS believed they had secret backers somewhere outside the IS.. but they probably figured it was some lost periphery colonies that found a SLDF cache or something. something somewhat mundane, compared to the reality.

[roosterboy]

The Kell kids were basically decanted

No, the Kells used in vitro fertilization but the kids were carried normally by Simone.

[Black_Knyght]

Didn't the Wolves also introduce/reintroduce the Hornet?

[Firesprocket]

Didn't the Wolves also introduce/reintroduce the Hornet?

They did not.  While it is nominally a Davion mech, when reintroduced it was as unpopular when it was first created.  The Dragoon's were the most frequent user of it later, but in general it was more popular with mercs.

[Black_Knyght]

Hmmm..., Oh well. Thought I remembered it being in a Wolves related sourcebook or something. I believe that Wolfs Dragoons (FAS1631) is the first book it showed up in though.

[Sartris]

the hornet is indeed in the WD sourcebook, thought that book states the -151 has been available since 2990, a date well past the exodus.

[Black_Knyght]

Weird how "canon" and release reality in this game seldom align. How did a clan group like Wolf's Dragoons arrive in the Inner Sphere with so many of a mech designed AFTER Kerensky's exodus?  ::) ;)

[Liam's Ghost]

Weird how "canon" and release reality in this game seldom align. How did a clan group like Wolf's Dragoons arrive in the Inner Sphere with so many of a mech designed AFTER Kerensky's exodus?  ::) ;)

They didn't. The Hornet was featured because the Dragoons were a regular buyer of the design, same as the Wolfhound, Flea, and Marauder II, and I think basically all the vehicles in the sourcebook. The dragoons didn't show up with them, but they did use them a lot once they started buying from Inner Sphere companies.

[Firesprocket]

Weird how "canon" and release reality in this game seldom align. How did a clan group like Wolf's Dragoons arrive in the Inner Sphere with so many of a mech designed AFTER Kerensky's exodus?  ::) ;)

The mech originally debuted in 2760 which was before the Exodus.

[Black_Knyght]

They didn't. The Hornet was featured because the Dragoons were a regular buyer of the design, same as the Wolfhound, Flea, and Marauder II, and I think basically all the vehicles in the sourcebook. The dragoons didn't show up with them, but they did use them a lot once they started buying from Inner Sphere companies.

Now THAT makes more sense to me

[VhenRa]

They did not.  While it is nominally a Davion mech, when reintroduced it was as unpopular when it was first created.  The Dragoon's were the most frequent user of it later, but in general it was more popular with mercs.

Hmmm..., Oh well. Thought I remembered it being in a Wolves related sourcebook or something. I believe that Wolfs Dragoons (FAS1631) is the first book it showed up in though.

They didn't. The Hornet was featured because the Dragoons were a regular buyer of the design, same as the Wolfhound, Flea, and Marauder II, and I think basically all the vehicles in the sourcebook. The dragoons didn't show up with them, but they did use them a lot once they started buying from Inner Sphere companies.

The mech originally debuted in 2760 which was before the Exodus.

Interestingly, from my memory of Dragoons sourcebook, it was outright "Completely new design", it was essentially a retcon/later book correction that clarified it was a revived design by Kallon.

[Firesprocket]

It states in the WD SB that it is made by Kallon.  The only item that was added later is it was originally created far earlier and then discontinued.

[Hellraiser]

Now THAT makes more sense to me

IIRC the Goons set up several trade/purchase agreements when they were on their first Davion contract.
The Biggest of which was the investments they made in Blackwell.
But they were also purchasing Hornets from Kallon & Wasps from New Avalon to replenish their light mech losses over the years.
The Hornet was in/out of production during the Succession Wars, much like the part time Guillotine production runs that House Marik would do of & on.

The big issue with the goons wasn't the Hornets.  It was the Falcon/Firefly/Hoplite/Shogun that had stopped all production & were very very rare, along with the Imp/Annihilator that were never before seen & to a lesser extent the Marauder-II plans.

[Nightlord01]

The big issue with the goons wasn't the Hornets.  It was the Falcon/Firefly/Hoplite/Shogun that had stopped all production & were very very rare, along with the Imp/Annihilator that were never before seen & to a lesser extent the Marauder-II plans.

The big issue with the Dragoons wasn't any of the mechs they had, it was simply assumed that they had found a large Star League cache in the periphery, which, canonically, had shrunk in size over the centuries. The really big issue that drove all of the house intelligence services to distraction was the fact that a merc unit consisting of five regiments of mechs appeared one day using odd customs and simply offered their services to House Davion.

It had been theorised forever that the Dragoons were ex-SLDF troops who had returned home, but no-one had definitive intelligence.

Personally, I never liked the FASA era Dragoons story arc, they were one of the very few openly plot driven units in game, and drove suspension of disbelief to extremes.

[(SMD)MadCow]

And the orbital mech factory.

[grimlock1]

i don't think that they ever demonstrated anything obviously superior tech wise (none of the regrowing organs the clans could do for example) but instead their doctors were just really skilled and able to perform medical care that in the IS would be more commonly the provenance of the highest classes,

I thought there was a line in Wolves On The Border about Tetsuhara being jealous of Kelly Yukinov's regrown limbs but I was wrong.  Yukinov received high end, myomer prosthetics, while  Tetsuhara's must have been something a bit simpler.

[Phobos101]

That's right, Tetsuhara just got run of the mill prosthetics, Wolf shelled out to get a myomer item for Yukinov. Presumably some of this kind of support capability would have been lost when Hephaestus station went the way of the Death Star.
Is it weird that I feel bad dropping spoilers on a book that's nearly as old as I am?

[glitterboy2098]

what i find interesting is that art of Tetsuhara clearly set after that incident fails to show his mechanical limb. while probably just a case of artists and writers not coordinating, it creates an opening for him to have managed to obtain myomer rebuilds at some point later, perhaps after becoming master of the Ryuken (and thus in higher favor)

[grimlock1]

probably just a case of artists and writers not coordinating,

FASA was unfortunately notorious for that being an issue.

[beachhead1985]

yes, it would be a Battledroid's reference. TRO3055 was in 1992, while the Wolfs Dragoons sourcebook was 1989. the original battledroids (aka battletech 1st ed) was in 1984.

that said, i would love to see an official record sheet for an Introtech heavily modified Stone Rhino, with a weapons loadout recalling the battledroids visual. since a Stone Rhino is standard engine, structure, and armor, it shouldn't require as much refittign as other clan mechs might.

certainly the Battledroids version has some similarity to the Reseen miniature.

a while back someone posted a really excellent intro tech design that fit the imagery for the BD behemoth perfectly. I'm doubtful how well 4x AC/5 and 6x ml would perform against a mech of similar weight...but there you go

[guardiandashi]

I know I did a variation on that idea years ago... quad PPC and 6 medium lasers in the arms, even with 30 plus heat sinks it had heat issues

[glitterboy2098]

I know I did a variation on that idea years ago... quad PPC and 6 medium lasers in the arms, even with 30 plus heat sinks it had heat issues

so a super Awesome?

hmm.. maybe switch to LL's instead of PPC's? would let you fit a few more heat sinks (if there was room), or tweak the armor.

[guardiandashi]

so a super Awesome?

hmm.. maybe switch to LL's instead of PPC's? would let you fit a few more heat sinks (if there was room), or tweak the armor.

Yes and no, it was modeled as the monster... so 2ppc in each side torso,was slow like 2 3 had max armor, and as many heat sinks as could fit

[Sharpnel]

It can be done with 2 Large Laser and 6 mediums and still go 3/5

Laser Monster

[Kit deSummersville]

That was not mentioned until the ComStar SB, which was published after the BoK trilogy gave us the Clans.

Well, it was probably in the ComStar House Book, too.  #P

[Luciora]

It's funny how when we try to rectify weapons with the source mech, it's usually reversed.  The P-Hawk and associated bugs should have autocannons or light ACs for the main gun while the Marauder should be reversed with twin ACs in the arm and the PPC in the torso.

[Black_Knyght]

It's funny how when we try to rectify weapons with the source mech, it's usually reversed.  The P-Hawk and associated bugs should have autocannons or light ACs for the main gun while the Marauder should be reversed with twin ACs in the arm and the PPC in the torso.

An excellent point and observation  8)