Author Topic: CO System Generation  (Read 14127 times)

BLOODWOLF

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CO System Generation
« on: 16 October 2017, 08:54:51 »
So have been working on the CO system generation rules translating them into code in VB.NET to then fill out an Xml with random data for the planets that we currently do not have any data for.  But, with the stock rules of mass x orbital slot AU there are some stars(even the V ones) where you will never get a planet inside the habitable zone.  So, have been trying out different formulas and wondering if anyone would mind taking a crack at it with me.  The formula I have in there now for slots 1-15 make it where the first three inner planets are in the habitable zone but, I dont really like it and would be better if was more random some how with how many planets are in the zone for each system.

Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #1 on: 16 October 2017, 10:15:12 »
IAU and OAU are the innere and outer edge of the habitable zone?

I am not familiar with the CO system generation, but I´ve been tinkering with system generation rules for Traveller for a long time, and some of that might be of interest to you.

I don´t immediately calculate orbital radii linearly; instead, I use a logarithmic scale, where Orbit 0 is 1 AU for a star with a luminosity of 1 sol. Ten orbits in either direction is double/half the radius - i.e. if Orbit 0 is 1.0 AU, Orbit -10 is .5 AU and Orbit 10 is 2.0 AU.
This way, I don´t have to take luminosity into account immediately; I simply populate the system, and THEN worry about which orbital radius each orbit corresponds to; for example with a luminosity of 0.25 sol, Orbit 0 is 0.5 AU instead of 1.0, and all other distances are recalculated accordingly.
On this scale, "distances" of 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 or 9 orbits between two planets are a very close fit to common orbital resonance between planets.

To populate the system, I start at Orbit -40, which seems to be where the Rock Line is, the point inside which solid planets cannot form; I roll (4d6*5)-40 to determine the extent of the planetary system; so for example if the 4d6 roll is 15, the planetary system extends to orbit (15*5)-40 = 35. This means the outer edge of the planetary system is somewhere between Orbit -20 and Orbit 100 (i.e. between 0.25 AU and 1024 AU for a star like our sun), most commonly around Orbit 40.
So, beginning at Orbit -40, I roll 1d6 repeatedly to populate orbits:
1 - 3 orbits
2 - 4 orbits
3 - 5 orbits
4 - 7 orbits
5 - 8 orbits
6 - 9 orbits
For example, if the first 1d6 roll is a 4, the innermost planet is 7 orbits from the inner limit of Orbit -40, i.e. at Orbit -33. If the next 1d6 roll is a 2, the second-innermost planet is then 4 orbits from the innermost planet, i.e. at Orbit -29.
I just keep rolling and rolling and rolling, until I´ve reached the outer edge of the planetary system. If as above the system extends to Orbit 35 and I make a roll that would place a planet at Orbit 36 or beyond, that´s the cut-off point.

So that´s the extent of the system. Depending on how optimistic you want to be, the Habitable Zone probably extends about from Orbit -5 to Orbit 5 (i.e. 0.7 AU to 1.4 AU for our sun). Any planet beyond Orbit 20 is a gas giant; if there is at least one gas giant, the two planets directly in from the closest gas giants are no planets, but the inner and outer edge, respectively, of an asteroid belt.

That´s the short version of the relevant part, at least. I don´t know if any of it is useful for you.
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BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #2 on: 16 October 2017, 11:40:27 »
Well in Campaign Operations they have an orbital placement system modeled off Terra with 15 slots.  Slot 1 is 0.4AU(Mercury) from the sun X the suns mass, 2 is 0.7AU(Venus), 3 is 1.0(Earth, etc.  And only for main sequence "V" stars.  And in HQ and in the BT lore some canon planets are around other than V stars and it makes my code go into an infinite loop since there are no rules for that.  Had to make them.

Quote
    public static final String LUM_IA          = "Ia"; x100,000
    public static final String LUM_IB          = "Ib"; x10,000
    public static final String LUM_II          = "II"; x1,000
    public static final String LUM_III         = "III"; x100
    public static final String LUM_IV          = "IV"; x10
    public static final String LUM_V           = "V"; x1
    public static final String LUM_VI          = "VI"; x0.1
    public static final String LUM_VII         = "VII"; x0.01

So decided to use those multipliers for the other star types and then recalculate the life zone edges based off: T4=L⊙(1−a)16πd2ơ (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/10113/how-to-calculate-the-expected-surface-temperature-of-a-planet) setting the outer average planet temp limit at 273 kelvin and inner to 308 kelvin to come up with the life zone AU's.

Mainly just trying to figure out how to come up with the AU distance for each slot in a system in a way that makes sense but isnt the same each time which probably wont be possible.  Right now I just use the formula sqrt(Luminosity)/Illumination value for each orbit getting darker the further away you are.  Using CO's  Illum = (Luminosity) ÷ AU^2 formula.  I dont really know just throwing this out there if anyone wants to play with it.

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #3 on: 16 October 2017, 12:10:04 »
Well...this is all well and good for systems similar to earth, but not very well to replicate systems like Trappist 1, an M8V star: where the entire system is located in less than 1 AU:



I really like the CO system builder, myself trying to build an excel spreadsheet to help me make the calculations on the quick more than a random generator.

Can't recall if CO has anything to help change the Base Orbital Placement table (page 102, CO)

Be interesting to see where this discussion leads to.
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BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #4 on: 16 October 2017, 12:22:30 »
Yeah because my end goal is to have the code (will be inserting the excel sheet as a DataTable) generate all this planetary stuff for the BT planets that are empty on data and have the planet in the habitable zone I guess my formula where the first 3 inner planets might work since its just going to roll until it gets a valid orbit inside that zone.  But I still want to stick close to the canon rules if I can.

Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #5 on: 16 October 2017, 12:34:54 »
Well in Campaign Operations they have an orbital placement system modeled off Terra with 15 slots.  Slot 1 is 0.4AU(Mercury) from the sun X the suns mass, 2 is 0.7AU(Venus), 3 is 1.0(Earth, etc.  And only for main sequence "V" stars.  And in HQ and in the BT lore some canon planets are around other than V stars and it makes my code go into an infinite loop since there are no rules for that.  Had to make them.

So decided to use those multipliers for the other star types and then recalculate the life zone edges based off: T4=L⊙(1−a)16πd2ơ (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/10113/how-to-calculate-the-expected-surface-temperature-of-a-planet) setting the outer average planet temp limit at 273 kelvin and inner to 308 kelvin to come up with the life zone AU's.

Mainly just trying to figure out how to come up with the AU distance for each slot in a system in a way that makes sense but isnt the same each time which probably wont be possible.  Right now I just use the formula sqrt(Luminosity)/Illumination value for each orbit getting darker the further away you are.  Using CO's  Illum = (Luminosity) ÷ AU^2 formula.  I dont really know just throwing this out there if anyone wants to play with it.

The problem with fixed intervals between slots is that there are no fixed orbital intervals; the Titius-Bode Law assumed there was, but it has been disproven for some time now. As I understand it, orbits are at their most stable if planets move in some sort of orbital resonance to each other: 2:1, 5:2, 4:3 etc etc etc; due to Kepler´s laws of planetary motion, each orbital resonance corresponds to a certain ratio of orbital radii - for example in a 4:3 resonance, the orbital radius of the outer planet will be 1.21 times that of the inner planet.

What I do with my system of Orbits and the roll for the interval between two neighboring planets is to randomly determine which orbital resonance there is between these two planets, then place them a corresponding distance apart.
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Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #6 on: 16 October 2017, 12:51:04 »
What you tell me about Illumination seems to be the concept of Black Body Temperature (BBT) - the temperature a body would have, through solar radiation, if it absorbed all radiation it received but produced no heat of its own.

I think you´ll find that, if you ignore spectral class as such and go strictly by luminosity, you´ll have much less of a problem determining orbital radii. The maximum energy a planet receives from its star while still forming as a solid planet (instead of melting/evaporating) is always the same. It is always a certain multiple (I put it at 256 times as much) of the energy a planet at the center of the habitable zone receives - and according to the law of inverse squares, this means that the minimum orbital radius around a star at which a solid planet can form is always a certain fraction (in my case, 1/16) of the radius at the center of the Habitable Zone, no matter what the Luminosity is in absolute terms or which spectral class the star has.

Thus, once you have the location of the Habitable Zone around a star, you automatically also have the innermost possible orbit for a planet. What you would need to do for your code to handle this is check some stellar date to figure out how much more luminous the average IV star, for example, is compared to the average V star.

An example from data I have lying around here:
41 Arae is a G8V star, luminosity 0.42
Delta Pavonis is a G8IV star, luminosity 1.22
Groombridge 1830 is a G8VI star, luminosity 0.21

So giving VI star half the luminosity of V stars could be a good starting point, and three times the luminosity for IV stars.

FWIW, the Snow Line, the distance beyond which gas giants can form, obey the same rules as the Rock Line - it´ll always be somewhere around four times the orbital radius of the center of the Habitable Zone, no matter what the star´s luminosity is.
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BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #7 on: 16 October 2017, 14:00:44 »
Yeah the illumination thing I used the 4πR2ơT4=πR2L⊙(1−a)(4πd2) formula with (1-a) a being albedo with as (1-0.29) but thats with no greenhouse effect.  So instead just set one of the planets to mass and luminosity of 1 and adjusted a until it gave me Earth's actual average temp in Kelvin at 1AU and came up with x (1.125) instead of (1-a).  Assuming every planet listed in BT canon is habitable with an atmosphere.  Explain the orbital resonance thing more, I looked it up on wikipedia but thats information overload on there.  What resonances can I have/would make sense for slot #1 to #15 (thinks 9 would be a more realistic limit)

Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #8 on: 16 October 2017, 14:54:12 »
Explain the orbital resonance thing more, I looked it up on wikipedia but thats information overload on there.  What resonances can I have/would make sense for slot #1 to #15 (thinks 9 would be a more realistic limit)

I´m no astronomer myself, so please take the following with a grain of salt:

The central star isn´t the only thing in a star system that exerts gravity; the planets also exert gravity on each other, especially the more massive ones. Over time - and we´re speaking of billions of orbital periods for inner-system planets - even the small gravitational influence two Earth-sized planets exert from each other over interplanetary distances adds up to destabilize planetary orbits. Meaning that if the orbits are unstable, planets collide, are flung out into interstellar place, or don´t even form to begin with.

For some reason that I don´t quite understand, orbits are more stable and gravitational influences of two planets on each other are not as problematic if the orbital periods of the two planets relative to each other are at certain ratios. Those are usually pretty small numbers, such as 4:3, 2:1, 5:2 etc - e.g. 4:3 means that for every four orbits of the inner planet, the outer planet completes three orbits.

Kepler´s Third Law of Planetary Motion states that the square of the orbital period of a planet is always proportional to the cube of the semi-major axis. If orbits were perfectly circular, the semi-major axis would be the orbital radius, so it´s good enough for laymen to use it as that.
That means that, if two planets have a 4:3 orbital resonance, meaning the outer planet has 4/3 times the orbital period of the inner planet, Kepler´s Third Law tells us how much greater its orbital radius must be: The cube root of the square of the resonance ratio (4/3) - about 1.21 times, in this case.

You can use this to determine the placement of planets in a newly generated system:
Start by placing the innermost planet (Planet 1) whereever you think it makes sense for the innermost planet to be.
Then, determine what the orbital resonance between Planet 1 and Planet 2 should be. Place Planet 2 as far out from Planet 1 as Kepler´s Third Law dictates it should be for its orbital period - e.g. 1.21 times Planet 1´s orbital radius if the two have a 4:3 orbital resonance.
Now, determine what the orbital resonance between Planet 2 and Planet 3 should be, and place Planet 3 accordingly.
Keep placing planets until you are as far out from the star as you want to be, or have as many planets as you want to have, or whatever other criterion you choose.

The fun thing is, orbital resonance doesn´t just work between adjacent planets; more distant planets also attract one another, and also move in some sort of resonance. For example, if Planet 1 and Planet 2 are in a 3:2 resonance to each other, and Planet 2 and Planet 3 are in a 5:3 resonance to each other, Planet 1 and Planet 3 are also in a 5:2 resonance.

(note that real-world data isn´t an exact match for this; Venus and Earth, for example, are only in an *almost* perfect 8:5 resonance; nature is never tidy and simple)

Common orbital resonances, and the corresponding ratios of orbital radii, are:
4:3 (1.21)
3:2 (1.31)
8:5 (1.37)
5:3 (1.41)
7:4 (1.45)
9:5 (1.48)
2:1 (1.59)
7:3 (1.76)
5:2 (1.84)
3:1 (2.08)

What this could mean for the slot system is that distances between slots aren´t necessarily fixed. Instead of having the slots at 0.4, 0.7, 1.0 etc AU, you could roll dice to determine orbital resonance between the planets in adjacent slots and calculate the ratio of their orbital radii from that. Say roll 1d10, with a result of 1 indicating 4:3 resonance, a 2 indicating 3:2 resonance, and so on, up to 10 indicating 3:1 resonance. Do that separately for every system generated, and you´ll have the added benefit that intervals between planets aren´t the same everywhere any more.
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BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #9 on: 16 October 2017, 15:08:21 »
Ah ok, yeah i sometimes need the math broken down barney-style for me xD Im just an automotive technician trying to learn code to get a real job so, Im not astronomer either.  I like that but, I also need each system to always have at least one position/slot that is habitable for when I run the code on all these BT planets that have no data in them.  So Im going to have to figure out how to incorporate orbital resonance "and" get at least one slot in the life zone so the code doesnt infinitely loop when there are no possible combinations. 

BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #10 on: 16 October 2017, 15:12:09 »
*Note I am not actually filling out an entire system with this program just need to determine the system position of just the battletech planet that doesnt have any data already defined for it.  But am trying to make it future proof for if they ever recode HQ to handle systems instead of just planets, then will be able to generate a full system like normal.  I know i could just roll 1-15 for the system position but, pft thats too easy, no.

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #11 on: 16 October 2017, 15:21:53 »
The problem with fixed intervals between slots is that there are no fixed orbital intervals; the Titius-Bode Law assumed there was, but it has been disproven for some time now.

It was disproven before I wrote the rules, which is why p. 102 puts in a disclaimer about Titius-Bode. ;) Using Titius-Bode was just a convenience for quickly placing planets in a way that could scale between little M dwarfs and big B-class stars while minimizing word count.

Can't recall if CO has anything to help change the Base Orbital Placement table (page 102, CO)

Yes, it does, on p. 98, first two paragraphs of Solar System Generation: "The following charts and rules provide gamemasters (GMs) with guidelines for producing detailed star systems, planets, and even inhabited worlds. They are not meant as firm rules, but simply guidelines for GMs and players who do not feel like creating systems purely from their own imagination." and "In particular, the provided dice rolling methods tend to produce star systems lacking habitable planets, so players should feel free to override the dice rolls if they want a habitable planet or specific star system layout."

Further, there's p. 118's Realistic Planetary Placement" options, which includes dumping the Titius-Bode Law. "The default spacing of orbital slots in these rules is based on a system that only addresses some of Sol’s brood and does not work at smaller scales or in other observed star systems (at least, not yet) ... Players with a lot of time on their hands are welcome to try to model likely spacings of gas giants, terrestrial planets, and other objects in a system."

In other words, you can make the systems however you want. The Game Police will not be sent to your house if you ignore the Titius-Bode relationship for planetary spacing. ;)
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Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #12 on: 16 October 2017, 15:46:45 »
Ah ok, yeah i sometimes need the math broken down barney-style for me xD Im just an automotive technician trying to learn code to get a real job so, Im not astronomer either.  I like that but, I also need each system to always have at least one position/slot that is habitable for when I run the code on all these BT planets that have no data in them.  So Im going to have to figure out how to incorporate orbital resonance "and" get at least one slot in the life zone so the code doesnt infinitely loop when there are no possible combinations.

You can do that if you make the life zone big enough that whatever method you use to determine orbital resonance cannot completely "skip" it.

Say for example you have a star with a life zone from 1.0 AU to 2.0 AU. If you have a planet placed at 0.98 AU, and randomly determine that it has a 3:1 resonance with the next planet, that´d place that next planet at 2.04 AU - so both planets would be outside the life zone.

So either you make the life zone big enough to accomodate all orbital resonances, meaning the outer limit is *at least* 2.08 times the inner limit. Or you do not use any orbital resonances that result in a larger gap between planets than the span of the life zone - in the case of the life zone from 1.0 AU to 2.0 AU, any with a orbital radius ratio above 2.0, in other words you exclude the 3:1 resonance.
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BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #13 on: 16 October 2017, 15:56:20 »
Now just need to find some kind of chart or something showing the differences between all the difference luminosity classes (Ia - VII).

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #14 on: 16 October 2017, 16:29:26 »
Some thoughts:

1) We don't have a workable model, yet, which properly explains our own solar system, although the 'bumper cars' model (requiring an additional one or two ice giants which get summarily ejected along the way) is popular at the moment. (I think it smells of Veliskovsky's "Worlds in Motion" myself  ::) ) But a sample set of one is not enough to prove anything yet.

(And we don't have good sample sets outside Sol yet; we only can detect the freakshows, at the moment.)

2) Habitable zone ain't black-body temp at distance, otherwise we'd be experiencing Lunar-style surface extremes. Presence of an atmosphere can minimise the extremes, and raises overall average temps by some tens of degrees at the equator. Heck, Mars could be warmed up with a thick enough gas blanket.

So ... as the Master (Cray) says, "make the systems how you want."
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Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #15 on: 16 October 2017, 16:46:01 »
Now just need to find some kind of chart or something showing the differences between all the difference luminosity classes (Ia - VII).

The closest I can give you to that chart is the Hertzsprung-Russell-diagram, which maps luminosity on one axis and spectral class on the other.  Here´s a pretty clean version of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HR-diag-no-text-2.svg

Luminosity doesn´t seem to scale with spectral class for giants the way it does for dwarf stars. Sub-wwarfs (class VI) seem to have about half the luminosity of a normal dwarf star of the same spectral class, but others, luminosity depends more on size class than on spectral class.

Look at the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram; sub-giants and sub-dwarfs are more or less parallel to the main sequence stars (class V). But the others lie along a more or less horizontal line for each class. So for classes Ia to III, you could probably get away with giving all stars of a class the same luminosity.
You could for example check out the stars given as examples for classes Ia to III, and use that data as typical for their size class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification#Yerkes_spectral_classification

As for class VII, white dwarfs - as far as I understand it, they don´t use the regular spectral classes, like G4VII or something, but are classified as spectral class D. From the data I have available, I figure you can give a white dwarf roughly the luminosity of a class M star of the same subclass - i.e. a D9 white dwarf would be as luminous as a M9V star.

Okay, it´s getting late here. I´ll be back tomorrow.
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BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #16 on: 16 October 2017, 17:04:31 »
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/HRDiagram.png
Yeah thats^ the chart I used to come up with the x100,000 - x 0.001 multipliers to the main sequence stars mass and luminosity, obviously thats wrong for mass though. 

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #17 on: 16 October 2017, 17:27:52 »
Star   Mass   Temperature   Luminosity
M9Ia   5.598   2400.000   415.00000
M9Ib   2.899   2400.000   41.50000
M9II   1.502   2400.000   4.15000
M9III   0.778   2400.000   0.41500
M9IV   0.403   2400.000   0.04150
M9V   0.209   2400.000   0.00415
M9VI   0.108   2400.000   0.00042
M9VII   0.056   2400.000   0.00004
That make more sense?  L = M^3.5 so took the L^(1/3.5) = M.
Not sure if I even need to worry about mass for figuring out orbits.

BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #18 on: 16 October 2017, 23:46:46 »
Did the orbital thing, sorta.  Just had it pick a random integer between 1 - 10 / another random 1 - 10.  Wasnt able to find a list of 15+ stable resonances so just did it that way.  But the very first slot I had to force in the life zone, the code will infinite loop otherwise, i cant have a system with no viable planet when it goes to fill out the data for a planet with nothing in it.

Quote
   <planet>
      <name>Abagnar</name>
      <xcood>380.231</xcood>
      <ycood>314.823</ycood>
      <faction>UND</faction>
      <factionChange>
         <date>2750-01-01</date>
         <faction>DC</faction>
      </factionChange>
   </planet>
Like that^ planet for example I plan to have the program generate all the missing stuff from these rules or modified rules since it needs to be habitable.

Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #19 on: 17 October 2017, 03:27:27 »
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/HRDiagram.png
Yeah thats^ the chart I used to come up with the x100,000 - x 0.001 multipliers to the main sequence stars mass and luminosity, obviously thats wrong for mass though.

I think for classes Ia through III you are probably better off using flat values - say 50,000 for Ia, 10,000 for Ib, 2,500 for II and 250 for III, since as the chart shows, luminosity doesn´t scale with spectral type like it does for classes IV, V and VI.

Mass, though... as I understand it, giants aren´t necessarily more massive than dwarf stars of the same spectral type. They are simply a later stage in the life cycle of such stars. Stars that are exhausting their hydrogen supplies and about to begin fusing heavier elements will bloat and become much more luminous. And, obviously, a star does not suddenly drastically change its mass when that happens.
And since giant stars are former dwarf stars, I would generate orbits as if the star was a class V dwarf star - because that´s what it used to be when the planetary system formed - and then remove all planets that are too close to the now much more luminous giant star to remain solid.
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Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #20 on: 17 October 2017, 03:31:14 »
Did the orbital thing, sorta.  Just had it pick a random integer between 1 - 10 / another random 1 - 10.  Wasnt able to find a list of 15+ stable resonances so just did it that way.  But the very first slot I had to force in the life zone, the code will infinite loop otherwise, i cant have a system with no viable planet when it goes to fill out the data for a planet with nothing in it.
Like that^ planet for example I plan to have the program generate all the missing stuff from these rules or modified rules since it needs to be habitable.

You could try yet another approach: Since you want every system to have a planet in the habitable zone, you could start out by placing a planet somewhere in the habitable zone at random, roll 1d6 to determine which slot that planet is in, then use the orbital resonances to place whatever other planets you want inside and outside that planet´s orbit.
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Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #21 on: 17 October 2017, 04:00:52 »
There´s another consideration to keep in mind, which BattleTech doesn´t really do to my knowledge: Habitability is kind of a delicate flower.

You see, the Habitable Zone should really be called the "Liquid Water Zone", in that it´s the distance where planets can have liquid surface water, which we consider a prerequisite for life. But for a planet to actually become habitable, a few more things need to happen.

Mainly, we need oxygen. Oxygen as a molecule is very eager to react with anything and everything (such as oxidising iron, which we call "rust"), so it kind of depletes over, astronomically speaking, very short timespans. The only way to have lots of oxygen is to have lots of oxygen-producing biomass. That doesn´t necessarily mean plant life; oxygen production on Earth originally began with cyanobacteria.

That, however, is a problem. It takes time - LOTS of time. Apparently it took about a billion years on Earth from the moment the planet formed to the point where cyanobacteria had a measureable effect on atmospheric composition; it took 4 billion years or so for life to spread onto dry land.
Why is that a problem? Because a lot of stars don´t live that long. The more massive a star, the faster it uses up its hydrogen; our sun is 5-ish billion years old and will remain in dwarf star the business for maybe another five billion years before turning into a giant star, whereas the most massive O-type and B-type stars live maybe 10 million years in total. This alone rules all O-, B- and A-type stars, possibly some of the hotter F-type stars as well; fortunately, all those make up only maybe 2-3% of all stars.
You won´t find habitable planets around giants, either. Once they started bloating, any planet in what used to be their Liquid Water Zone was either fried, or outright swallowed by the expanding star; the giant phase won´t last long enough for those planets that are in their new Liquid Water Zone to get very far in spawning life, either. Likewise, white dwarfs (class VII) are what is left of stars that are done with being giants; they´re much less luminous than they used to be even when they were regular dwarf stars, but all you will find in their current Liquid Water Zone is thoroughly sterilized airless rock balls.
The jury is still of whether life can develop on planets around M-type stars; their Liquid Water Zone is so close to the stars that a planet there would most likely be tide-locked, meaning it has the same side facing the star constantly, much like our moon does to Earth. Since that would mean one side of the planet is constantly scorched by sunlight, while the other is perpetually cold and dark, I´m sure you can see that this would be problematic. There are apparently some models indicating that certain circumstances might allow for life to form, such as if a dense atmosphere helps carry heat from the day side to the night side, but I haven´t seen anything on how likely such circumstances would be - never mind that the dense atmosphere would be wracked by unimaginably massive storms from the temperature differentials on that world. That would rule out most or all of the M-type stars, which is kind of a problem because those make up about 75% of all stars out there.

So, if you want to go with the science, restrict habitable planets to F-, G- and K-type stars of class V, *possibly* classes IV and VI, plus some or all M-type stars. As far as I can tell, BattleTech didn´t do that with the canonical planets, so it´s really up to you. If it was me, I would restrict other kinds of stars to systems that canonically do not have habitable worlds, such as Star´s End.
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BLOODWOLF

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #22 on: 17 October 2017, 08:43:10 »
I think for classes Ia through III you are probably better off using flat values - say 50,000 for Ia, 10,000 for Ib, 2,500 for II and 250 for III, since as the chart shows, luminosity doesn´t scale with spectral type like it does for classes IV, V and VI.

Mass, though... as I understand it, giants aren´t necessarily more massive than dwarf stars of the same spectral type. They are simply a later stage in the life cycle of such stars. Stars that are exhausting their hydrogen supplies and about to begin fusing heavier elements will bloat and become much more luminous. And, obviously, a star does not suddenly drastically change its mass when that happens.
And since giant stars are former dwarf stars, I would generate orbits as if the star was a class V dwarf star - because that´s what it used to be when the planetary system formed - and then remove all planets that are too close to the now much more luminous giant star to remain solid.

I cannot easily do that in the code or on this spreadsheet, too complex. I dont know how to tell a computer to do that.

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #23 on: 17 October 2017, 09:01:51 »
Yes it says the same thing in CO that these giant stars dont live long enough to have life but regardless BT still put planets near class I and II stars so i had to make this sheet to figure stuff out for those planets.  Believe me I would have been more than happy to leave the rules as is and consider every star V class but, makes the code infinitely loop.  Ill go back in tonight and delete the class VII stars that are outside the temp range for white dwarfs and then for class VI sub dwarfs.  Hopefully there are no canon planets around a VI or VII star that doesnt make sense for those.

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #24 on: 17 October 2017, 09:08:20 »

Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #25 on: 17 October 2017, 09:46:13 »
I cannot easily do that in the code or on this spreadsheet, too complex. I dont know how to tell a computer to do that.

Unfortunately I know even less about code than you do; I haven´t written a line of code since 1995 or so, and I doubt you´re using Q-Basic anyway...

As for placing planets around giant stars, I agree completely; I think BT could do with a retcon that changes all giants and O/B/A stars with habitable planets around them to something scientifically plausible.
For canonical planets around such stars, I´d just sigh and roll my eyes and pretend there´s nothing wrong with it when generating the rest of the system; but if you randomly determine spectral type and class for stars where there is no canonical information, I´d limit the option of the random generation F/G/K/M class V stars.

Speaking of Betelgeuse - another slightly less obvious craziness is the distance to the jump point. This seems to be calculated in BT primarily from spectral type - M1 in this case, which pegs Betelgeuse as a fairly dim star. A flight time of 2.86 days at 1g implies that the jump point is maybe 1 AU or so from the planet.
The problem here is, if the jump point is above the star and the planet is in the liquid water zone (which should be roughly 300-400 AU away from Betelgeuse with its luminosity of 100,000-150,000 sol), the jump point should also be 300-400 AU away from the planet - with a transit time somewhere between 50 and 55 days. If the "height" of the jump point above the star scales with the luminosity of the star as well, then going by 10 AU for a G2V star (I think that was the value BT used) the jump point should be 3,000 to 4,000 AU - roughly 160-180 days of transit time at 1g.
Assuming the "height" of the jump point above the star depends on the mass of the star, I guess BT does a fair job accounting for that, but not accounting for the distance of the world from the star, which depends on luminosity. But then, a discrepancy between mass and luminosity happens mostly when you´re looking at giants, which for the most part shouldn´t have inhabited planets to begin with.



Either way, and completely independently of what I wrote above, I would like to thank you for rekindling my interest in this. I think I´m going to go back to tinkering with my rules again.
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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #26 on: 17 October 2017, 09:55:44 »
Yeah I seen how complicated the transit time rules were in CO and completely avoided that.  Specially for Ia supergiants omg that would prob be months if not years to the planet for a B0Ia star.  Didnt even want to go there.
For my B0Ia habitable zone is between 52,000 and 67,000 AU from the star and 1 LY = 63,241 AU so yeah.  Jump into system, charge, jump to planet lol.  I think they did it where safe jump distance ^2 + distance to planet ^2 and then square root, trig, to find the distance and then time for transit.   And thats more than i wanted to calculate on just this spreadsheet.
« Last Edit: 17 October 2017, 10:01:05 by BLOODWOLF »

Sir Chaos

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #27 on: 17 October 2017, 10:09:11 »
Yeah I seen how complicated the transit time rules were in CO and completely avoided that.  Specially for Ia supergiants omg that would prob be months if not years to the planet for a B0Ia star.  Didnt even want to go there.

Actually I just looked up the readily available data, purely out of curiosity... the most massive star known (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R136a1) is assumed to have around 315 solar masses, so if Sol´s jump point is 10.2 AU above Sol, this one´s should be 180-ish AU above the star (10.2 times the square root of 315). That same star has a luminosity of around 8.7 MILLION sol, so its liquid water zone should be around just short of 3,000 AU from the star - let´s say 3,000 AU from the planet to the jump point, which gives us a transit time at 1g of somewhere around 150 days.

Except, of course, dropships in BT tend to carry fuel and life support for what - 30 days?

One more reason why there shouldn´t be planets in giant star systems.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
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Daryk

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #28 on: 17 October 2017, 10:21:49 »
"Pirate" points are de rigeur for systems with stars that big.  I think it was even stated in canon somewhere (probably by Cray).

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Re: CO System Generation
« Reply #29 on: 17 October 2017, 11:03:20 »
And going off that chart I shared with the luminosity and temp i set those values for each star and then had it calculate the mass and radius from those values in the last spreadsheet I posted so, those should be close.
I think ill try to set the orbital resonance for the first planet off the stars radius AU and each consecutive planet after the 1st is already set to be a resonance value based off the previous planet in the new spreadsheet.
I might just have the code re-roll the star type and then orbital slot in the case it cant find a valid one, worried it will make the program hang if i do that though.

 

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