Author Topic: Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion (Read 115189 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #840 on:** 31 January 2018, 02:12:30 »

As opposed to a setting where not even the writers have any clue how the basic magic that the setting is based on is supposed to operate and consequently make an incoherent mess out of things?

roosterboy · « **Reply #841 on:** 31 January 2018, 02:14:06 »

What's incoherent about the Force?

Deadborder · « **Reply #842 on:** 31 January 2018, 02:28:21 »

Quote from: Scotty on 31 January 2018, 00:57:25

I'm anxiously awaiting the day that fanboys learn that "authoritative canon descriptions" of things that don't need them are by and large bad for any given fictional setting.

I'm also waiting for peace on earth and goodwill to all men. I suspect that's going to be easier to achieve.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #843 on:** 31 January 2018, 03:09:56 »

Quote from: roosterboy on 31 January 2018, 02:14:06

What's incoherent about the Force?

For starters, originally it was pretty clear that there wasn't supposed to be a balance between the Light Side and the Dark Side, it was the Dark Side's presence that was the imbalance.

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #844 on:** 31 January 2018, 03:12:55 »

Still seems pretty clear to me...

Neither dark siders nor light siders just pop up. People awaken to their force potential, then they choose how they use that potential.

roosterboy · « **Reply #845 on:** 31 January 2018, 03:28:41 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 31 January 2018, 03:09:56

For starters, originally it was pretty clear that there wasn't supposed to be a balance between the Light Side and the Dark Side, it was the Dark Side's presence that was the imbalance.

How is that incoherent? You have a good guy describing the Force from a good guy perspective so of course the Dark Side is going to be something bad. That’s not incoherence, that’s character-building.

There’s also the problem of presenting deep philosophical concepts through the POV of characters with biases and lack of knowledge. Obi-Wan’s view of the Force is colored by his Jedi training. The Jedi Council’s view of the Force is colored by millennia of tradition and indoctrination. The Sith view of the Force is colored by millennia of suppression, secrecy and ambition. But different characters having different views on something doesn’t make it incoherent because none of their viewpoints are being presented as objectively correct.

Unless there is something extremely subtle that I am forgetting, there’s nothing in the original trilogy that contradicts how the Force is presented/described in the prequel or sequel trilogies and vice versa.

Banzai · « **Reply #846 on:** 31 January 2018, 12:35:13 »

Quote from: Kentares on 30 January 2018, 18:39:44

Just for the giggles...

https://youtu.be/ht9kRsLLhjg

This is why we need an upvote button.

Sharpnel · « **Reply #847 on:** 31 January 2018, 13:31:06 »

Quote from: Banzai on 31 January 2018, 12:35:13

This is why we need an upvote button.

I just use this O0

Scotty · « **Reply #848 on:** 31 January 2018, 15:08:58 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 31 January 2018, 02:12:30

As opposed to a setting where not even the writers have any clue how the basic magic that the setting is based on is supposed to operate and consequently make an incoherent mess out of things?

Your mistakes here are assuming that the Force is "supposed" to operate in some rigid and defined fashion. Fans for decades have been trying to turn anything that halfway resembles "magic" into something that is not. When it comes right down to it, the exact mechanisms by which the Force operate are not something you or I need to understand. The concept that we should is ridiculous, and I wager comes significantly more from a sense of "I could do that better than the characters if I just knew all the rules!" than it does from anything with any inherent narrative merit.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #849 on:** 31 January 2018, 15:23:41 »

I'm just a fan of settings that use internal consistency with their magic instead of coming up with a new definition of how it works over and over again. And if they chose to redefine it, to at least spend a little time and energy on explaining why the previous definition was wrong rather than just pretending that it always worked the new way.

Scotty · « **Reply #850 on:** 31 January 2018, 15:37:36 »

Nothing in Star Wars' use of the Force contradicts itself. The only definitions that need redefining are in the fans' heads.

"They never did that before!" is not redefining anything. Star Wars's sample size is a tiny fraction of what we're told is the timeframe of the Force. The "rules" that we will all naturally collect in our perspectives based on observed events are not necessarily true.

"I didn't know it could do that!" is a fan preconception, pure and simple.

Banzai · « **Reply #851 on:** 01 February 2018, 13:58:43 »

It comes out of having an RPG based on the system. Since it needs to be measurable, it needs ridged rules and numbers to show capability. Which is great for a game, but causes this sort of expectations in some viewers, such as "Force Lightning is a Dark Force power, how could Yoda call lightning?!?" Lucas even went down this trail with the midi-chlorians. But it stunts the magic and wonder that The Force is supposed to engender.

Kitsune413 · « **Reply #852 on:** 01 February 2018, 14:03:09 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 31 January 2018, 02:12:30

As opposed to a setting where not even the writers have any clue how the basic magic that the setting is based on is supposed to operate and consequently make an incoherent mess out of things?

The force is just Taoism that you can do stuff with. It's never really deviated from that ever.

Fat Guy · « **Reply #853 on:** 13 February 2018, 15:06:08 »

Good one! https://youtu.be/rCB8DUGpYQQ

HobbesHurlbut · « **Reply #854 on:** 13 February 2018, 18:25:14 »

Yeah, I really wanted Ackbar to go out the way the "Social" Admiral did (social for how she dress).

marauder648 · « **Reply #855 on:** 14 February 2018, 01:21:15 »

garhkal · « **Reply #856 on:** 14 February 2018, 01:25:44 »

LOVE that pic.. But i wonder, did any of those jedi masters even think to have danger sense up??

Daemion · « **Reply #857 on:** 14 February 2018, 01:39:06 »

They probably did. Remember that Palpy was able to use the dark side to cloud their judgement about the larger picture. The closer they got to him, the stronger it probably got.

Banzai · « **Reply #858 on:** 14 February 2018, 12:51:59 »

That pic makes it look like he is shooting a game of Laser Pool.

Ruger · « **Reply #859 on:** 14 February 2018, 19:20:27 »

Quote from: garhkal on 14 February 2018, 01:25:44

LOVE that pic.. But i wonder, did any of those jedi masters even think to have danger sense up??

The novelization of the movie did this fight much better, I think. Palpatine ejected his lightsaber into his hand and struck at Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin in basically the same sudden move, using the Force to speed up his actions. Kit Fisto lasted a bit longer, but was soon struck down as his mastery of Form One, Shii-cho, couldn't match Sidious's skill with the lightsaber. And you saw in the movie what happened with Mace Windu, although the novel gives you some of Mace's thoughts during the battle...

Ruger

glitterboy2098 · « **Reply #860 on:** 14 February 2018, 20:31:35 »

it is also worth noting that the Jedi Temple is located above one of those dark side foci, like the Cave on ahch'to or the tree-cave on degobah. the Jedi spent most of their formative years with a tinge of the dark side constantly around them because the Jedi Temple was once a Sith Shrine.. (this original nature for the site is probably one of the reasons palpatine turned the temple into the Imperial palace during the time of the empire)

Palpatine seemed to be able to hide is presence from other force users, so odds are that until he dropped it to face them, he wasn't giving off anything stronger than what they were used to feeling on the planet.

Kidd · « **Reply #861 on:** 11 March 2018, 03:19:44 »

The HISHE take of the movie Fat Guy posted seems a little more serious than their other clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

Just finished reading this thread start to finish. Gonna think a while before I add a more detailed 2 credits.

In general, I think the setup in the opening third of TLJ was decent. The payoff... a lot less so.

Quote from: Ruger on 14 February 2018, 19:20:27

The novelization of the movie (IS) much better

period.

It is the single novel of the entire ex-movie Star Wars universe which I recommend to absolutely everyone who has ever asked me about anything Star Wars ex-movie. As I do again, here and now :D

I am Belch II · « **Reply #862 on:** 11 March 2018, 03:49:27 »

12 weeks after the release and the movie will slowly go away from the box office.

guardiandashi · « **Reply #863 on:** 11 March 2018, 10:33:51 »

Quote from: Kidd on 11 March 2018, 03:19:44

The HISHE take of the movie Fat Guy posted seems a little more serious than their other clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

Just finished reading this thread start to finish. Gonna think a while before I add a more detailed 2 credits.

In general, I think the setup in the opening third of TLJ was decent. The payoff... a lot less so.
period.

It is the single novel of the entire ex-movie Star Wars universe which I recommend to absolutely everyone who has ever asked me about anything Star Wars ex-movie. As I do again, here and now :D

my friend said as we were walking out that he wished they had gone with the luke parrying the shots from the walkers back and destroying them, because it would have proved/shown just how much of a badass luke was.

iamfanboy · « **Reply #864 on:** 11 March 2018, 14:06:07 »

Quote from: guardiandashi on 11 March 2018, 10:33:51

my friend said as we were walking out that he wished they had gone with the luke parrying the shots from the walkers back and destroying them, because it would have proved/shown just how much of a badass luke was.

But.. he couldn't. The whole point is that he was just a force projection. That's why he didn't let Princess Ben touch him with the lightsaber, why he 'survived' the barrage (wasn't really there), and why he died on that planet he was hiding on.

I mean, yeah, I had problems with the movie and its execution. But that scene built up perfectly to the reveal that he was never really there. "Be seeing you."

YingJanshi · « **Reply #865 on:** 11 March 2018, 14:16:04 »

Quote from: iamfanboy on 11 March 2018, 14:06:07

But.. he couldn't. The whole point is that he was just a force projection. That's why he didn't let Princess Ben touch him with the lightsaber, why he 'survived' the barrage (wasn't really there), and why he died on that planet he was hiding on.

I mean, yeah, I had problems with the movie and its execution. But that scene built up perfectly to the reveal that he was never really there. "Be seeing you."

Then how did he hand over the dice if it wasn't a physically solid projection?

Scotty · « **Reply #866 on:** 11 March 2018, 14:26:15 »

Quote from: YingJanshi on 11 March 2018, 14:16:04

Then how did he hand over the dice if it wasn't a physically solid projection?

Well, the dice also faded, and I'm pretty sure we get a good view of Leia's expression changing to one of comprehension.

That said, the whole "Luke should have been a badass" thing is Legends-only that people can't seem to actually let go. I'm glad it didn't show back up. Even if he actually was physically projecting himself there, it's better that he didn't turn the section into what it wasn't supposed to be in the first place.

iamfanboy · « **Reply #867 on:** 11 March 2018, 15:06:41 »

Quote from: YingJanshi on 11 March 2018, 14:16:04

Then how did he hand over the dice if it wasn't a physically solid projection?

Since we don't know how the projection worked (other than the dice fading away), we don't know the rules. Maybe it can be interacted with, but it's revealed to be an illusion; how would it look if the lightsaber had just clanged off Luke's chest, or passed through it, with a cut that closed up afterward?

It's like asking, once again, "Why didn't they just shoot Yavin in the first movie instead of circling around to shoot the moon, giving the Rebels time to blow up the Death Star?" There is no doubt some reason that it doesn't work on a gas giant, or that the beam would dissipate if they tried aiming it through the gas giant, but we have to accept that in universe there is some reason that the physics of it did not work.

Kitsune413 · « **Reply #868 on:** 11 March 2018, 15:58:09 »

Kind of... I mean... at the end of the day someone really fallible who hasn't read every word of fiction ever written about Star Wars wrote the script and after that things kind of fall into place...

Like earlier when someone asked why didn't the Jedi use Danger Sense of Palpatine and he was able to cloud those thoughts... and I think in universe he could cloud those thoughts... but at the end of the day it's because, "Well, some guy wrote it."

They shot at Yavin directly because George Lucas isn't a military strategist or a physicist. haha

monbvol · « **Reply #869 on:** 11 March 2018, 16:35:46 »

Plus Yavin was a gas giant, so it is entirely plausibe even if they fired on Yavin it wouldn't have done much to the moon on the far side. Then you can just handwave in that recharging for the second shot would have taken longer than just orbiting into position to take one shot and be done with it.