Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank  (Read 14451 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« on: 22 August 2011, 07:32:54 »
Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank

The T-12 Tiger, presented in Historical: Reunification War, was Davion's bid to produce a modern combat vehicle in the wake of the BattleMech, introducing new technology into their tank corps and field a modern main battle tank to preserve traditions and offer a cheaper but still effective option.  My suspicion is that the increasing obsolescence of the Estevez probably contributed to their enthusiasm for the project.  Operated as Davion's principal MBT during the end of the Age of War and the Reunification War, the Tiger was also extremely widespread.  The Lyrans put it into production not long after the Marsden II and the Tiger proliferated across the Inner Sphere by the early 2500s, then just kept spreading.  Eventually, everyone with a military industry capable of building the Tiger had built at least a few with the design revived during the Succession Wars as a desperation measure.  Despite this, no major variants existed, being subsumed into the same game stats with minor upgrades in components to improve reliability and uprated electronics.  Between the expansive user base and the similarities that may have helped inform the Bulldog's design (and quite possibly its lackluster sales), the Tiger was probably one of the most influential tanks in BattleTech's history.  The only listed notable operator was the same Colonel John Gordon whose pledge of loyalty alongside the First New Avalon Dragoons gave Alexander Davion the captured men to ransom back his wife and son as well as credibility with the people of the Crucis March.  Gordon's own fate was less rosy - after his promotion to General, he was executed in 2533, pushing the violence to a new level of intensity.

At 55 tons, the Tiger is in a bit of an odd spot, but it's one that makes more sense when you look at it in the tank's historical context.  Today, that obliges you to use a heavy vehicle bay.  The contemporaneous DroST transports in the same book reveal that the vehicle bay was apparently not considered de rigueur at the time the tank was designed, so you're looking at a different environment where the question is cargo space, not bay space, and under that regime, the Tiger makes more sense.  A Veridian 220 ICE provides the power to go 64 kph in clear terrain, a very familiar speed for older medium tanks.  The "Quantum Heavy Plate" isn't especially heavy at 6 tons but the 20/20/16/20 armor spread does stop a certain amount of fire.  At the time, with primitive 'Mechs still fairly common, armed support vehicles only slowly leaving the MBT role, and the Star League a dream of a man who wouldn't be born for decades, it was still thin but not as unreasonable.  All the same, this is definitely the tank's weak point.  The Federated AC/10 in the turret is the centerpiece of the armament, giving you a nice, solid, concentrated blast out to 15 hexes, not to mention a punch-through against support vehicles without BAR 10 armor.  Two tons of ammunition leave you with more ammo than the tank's armor will let it use.  An Archer SRM 4 rack is mounted alongside the main gun, providing a reasonable short-range crit-seeker; with only one ton of ammo, I recommend you stick with standard rounds for most situations.  Two different brands of machine guns were used, a Grizzly-3 Minigun in the turret and a pair of Borman-A5C Heavy Machineguns, one each fore and aft.  Despite the name, the Bormans are standard machine guns, not heavies.  While they're described as drawing on separate ammunition feeds, that's not reflected in the stats and the Grizzly was later replaced by a third Borman using a common ammo supply.

If you're using the Tiger, my advice is to look at the Bulldog and take some inspiration there.  This isn't a tank you use alone.  They're cheap, disposable, and individually not that tough.  In other words, Tigers are perfect for throwing at the enemy in groups.  Those of you looking to use them today may want to consider the value of armor-piercing or precision ammo - there's enough ammo to carry 10 rounds of a single type and precision will give fast-moving units a nasty surprise.  Back in the day, you may want to put flak in the second bin to keep VTOLs and fighters honest.  While unlikely in most games, some tear gas or knock-out gas SRMs may be useful if you see a need to disperse hostile crowds (like the insurgent troops and mobs also found in Historical: Reunification War) without creating lists of martyrs in the convenient major outrage size.  Alternate rules for both are found in the Biological and Chemical Weapons section of the same book.

Killing them isn't terribly difficult one on one.  Move in, focus on a side, and pound it, disabling first if it's convenient.  The problem is that Tigers aren't tanks people deploy singly and a lance of them can put out a respectable amount of fire.  Compounding this is the lack of a lot of our modern long-range options in some time periods when Tigers were extremely common, so just slapping them around with a Falconer isn't on the table.  Griffins still are, though, and will give a lance of Tigers fits.  Other reasonably fast mediums with PPCs or LRMs are equally good options.  Many of their opposing tanks are using longer-ranged weapons, which doesn't help anything.

References: That's the bad thing about working out on the edge.  The MUL, CamoSpecs, and even Sarna haven't caught up yet.  That being the case, here's the Tiger in all its glory:


Neufeld

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #1 on: 22 August 2011, 07:45:14 »
Good writeup. Naturally the AC/10 and 4/6/0 ICE profile makes me think about the Po. So, which one is better Po or Tiger? Would you replace the SRM4 with more armor?


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #2 on: 22 August 2011, 08:25:21 »
You know, I like the Tiger's looks, but I didn't appreciate the following until now: it appears it has these elaborate, articulated-looking plates to guard the front and side angles of the treads, but they're open in the front, thus exposing the treads themselves to direct fire from ahead.  No wonder the tank has a reputation for being poorly armored. ;)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #3 on: 22 August 2011, 10:11:30 »
You know, I like the Tiger's looks, but I didn't appreciate the following until now: it appears it has these elaborate, articulated-looking plates to guard the front and side angles of the treads, but they're open in the front, thus exposing the treads themselves to direct fire from ahead.  No wonder the tank has a reputation for being poorly armored. ;)

Maybe the armor slides down to cover the front when the Tiger stops moving. 

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #4 on: 22 August 2011, 16:34:41 »
My only real beef with the art is that the turret mounted MG has a horrid field of fire.
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Slicer3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #5 on: 23 August 2011, 18:03:00 »
Drop two MGs for more armor and i'm good to go.  Also i wonder if dropping to 50 tons and staying at 4/6/0 will give it some added tonnage.  I'm away from my HMV so i cant eyeball from work.  Make those two changes and i'd take this rig over the Po (yea heresy i know), good hole puncher, crit seeker combo, with a MG to keep the PBI away.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #6 on: 23 August 2011, 18:15:08 »
Getting smaller does not save tonnage in this case.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #7 on: 24 August 2011, 01:41:56 »
Maybe the armor slides down to cover the front when the Tiger stops moving.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #8 on: 24 August 2011, 03:27:46 »
The Tiger seems like it would have been a prime candidate for a Retrotech revival during the Jihad.  Was it brought back?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Slicer3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #9 on: 24 August 2011, 04:07:06 »
Yea, my only gripe with the Po is that it doesnt fit in a light vee bay.  So i'm pretty much in the camp of thinking a good offensive budget vee needs to fit in one so that one can cart a whole bunch of ass whooping with minimal number of Dropships/Jumpships.  Davions should be happy if they can get the love child of a Po and Bulldog back into full production for their militias and LCTs.

Treads do look a wee bit exposed....

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #10 on: 24 August 2011, 07:05:30 »
The Tiger seems like it would have been a prime candidate for a Retrotech revival during the Jihad.  Was it brought back?

cheers,

Gabe

Not that I've seen mentioned.  Considering that people had previously done exactly that in the Succession Wars, it's certainly possible, but there's less reason to do it now considering how widespread the Bulldog is.

Slicer3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #11 on: 24 August 2011, 14:39:55 »
Yea but these are Davions we're talking about, they dont like no stinking Large Lasers, its AUTOCANNONS 4EVA for these guys!

gyedid

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #12 on: 24 August 2011, 17:23:43 »
Anyone care to start an upgrade thread over in Fan Designs?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #13 on: 25 August 2011, 17:58:31 »
More random thoughts about the Tiger...

It's interesting to compare the Tiger's approach with that of its contemporary, the Marsden II.  The former has better speed, a harder-hitting gun, but is a proverbial hammer-and-eggshell, while the latter is slow, tough as nails, but the firepower is rather anemic (unless it can bring its SRMs into play).  The revived Marsden at least got upgraded weapons, so it's hard to think that they wouldn't do the same to the Tiger if that was brought back as well.  Then again, in the modern era, the Tiger seems perfect for something you assign to dirtbag militia, while in front-line forces that role is filled by Pattons and Rommels.

The Tiger may be designed to be deployed en masse, but I wonder how well it stacked up against the hordes of Taurian Toros during the Reunification War.

And as for its raison d'etre, I think that the higher speed and better ability to deal with mobility crits were probably the deciding factors in choosing to go with the lighter chassis and engine.  Otherwise it would have just made more sense to upgrade the Estevez with essentially the same weapons package and standard BAR 10 armour.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #14 on: 25 August 2011, 18:59:58 »
The case for replacing the Estevez is significantly more compelling than you're making it out to be because you're forgetting that we're comparing a combat vehicle to a TR C support vehicle.  The underlying technology was no longer compatible with military-grade hardware, it was far heavier than it needed to be to deliver the expected performance, the fire control needed to be modernized, and the communications were the equivalent of a CB radio.  The armor should be even worse than it is since it predates the point where BAR 8 was introduced in the first place by over a century.

The question, therefore, isn't whether putting a new gun on would solve the Estevez's problems.  It wouldn't and it wouldn't have made more sense, either, so the AFFS was looking at the need to make a new tank from the ground up either way.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #15 on: 27 August 2011, 12:31:55 »
The case for replacing the Estevez is significantly more compelling than you're making it out to be because you're forgetting that we're comparing a combat vehicle to a TR C support vehicle.  The underlying technology was no longer compatible with military-grade hardware, it was far heavier than it needed to be to deliver the expected performance, the fire control needed to be modernized, and the communications were the equivalent of a CB radio.  The armor should be even worse than it is since it predates the point where BAR 8 was introduced in the first place by over a century.

The question, therefore, isn't whether putting a new gun on would solve the Estevez's problems.  It wouldn't and it wouldn't have made more sense, either, so the AFFS was looking at the need to make a new tank from the ground up either way.

Well OK, if the Estevez really had THAT many problems, then designing and fielding a new tank made sense.  With the Tiger, though, it seems they went a bit too far with the downscaling.  I realize that at some level, there are good out-of-universe reasons for that--a House army's tank couldn't, after all, be better than the Terran Hegemony's standard MBT, the Merkava Mk VIII--but it seems just a bit wasteful to design and field something that can be killed so easily, practically requiring horde deployment to be effective.

On another note, several comparisons to the Bulldog and Po have already been made, but the more I look at the Tiger, I see a poor man's Myrmidon.

And one more thing:  considering the era it was designed for, the use of a Dark Age-style farm/construction vehicle operator cabin is just a bit galling (for those of us who really don't like that aesthetic). 

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

gyedid

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #16 on: 29 August 2011, 02:11:40 »
An upgrade thread has now been started at:

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,9781.0/topicseen.html

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #17 on: 29 August 2011, 03:36:28 »
The case for replacing the Estevez is significantly more compelling than you're making it out to be because you're forgetting that we're comparing a combat vehicle to a TR C support vehicle.  The underlying technology was no longer compatible with military-grade hardware, it was far heavier than it needed to be to deliver the expected performance, the fire control needed to be modernized, and the communications were the equivalent of a CB radio.  The armor should be even worse than it is since it predates the point where BAR 8 was introduced in the first place by over a century.

The question, therefore, isn't whether putting a new gun on would solve the Estevez's problems.  It wouldn't and it wouldn't have made more sense, either, so the AFFS was looking at the need to make a new tank from the ground up either way.

It wouldn't? I'd say keeping the already-Armored Chassis and mounting BAR10 armor with an AC/10 wouldn't have been unreasonable. That Heavy Rifle + ammo gobbled up 14 tons; exactly the same as the Tiger's AC/10 + ammo. The upgrade would not have been more viable than making a tank with 1/2 the armor anyhow. The 4/6 is hardly going to save its life in any terrain but paved roads / concrete.

The only question is the tech grade of the Estevez armor. If it's what I suspect, a simple upgrade to Tech D or E would have sufficed to transition it to BAR10.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #18 on: 29 August 2011, 09:03:33 »
Nothing you've done addresses the fire control (combat vehicles have advanced fire control built in, while the Estevez is stuck with basic, meaning it takes a +1 TM on every shot), the difference in communications capabilities (something that admittedly gets lost in the game's abstraction), the fact that the underlying technology is a century and a half out of date, or the two things I didn't think of but are also going to be factors in their thinking: the oversized crew and the way it's a massive gas hog.

Given all the problems, I find it difficult to argue that the Estevez wasn't due for replacement.  Yes, there are things that could have done to extend the Estevez's lifespan, but you can't get away from the fact that it's a TR C support vehicle in a TR D combat vehicle world.  So, given that, I think going ahead and building the Tiger made more sense from the AFFS's point of view.  If the armor's such a massive problem, pull the SRMs.

EDIT: This is not to say that I think the Tiger is a vastly superior design on an individual level.  It's not and especially not if you pull out the stops like replacing the Estevez's fire control.  But the advances in logistics (including the fact that you can pack in 4 with spares for the tonnage necessary to move 3 Estevezes before vehicle bays became the normal way of moving vehicles around) and what your industrial base will be capable of are worth it in my opinion.
« Last Edit: 29 August 2011, 09:21:12 by Moonsword »

Slicer3025

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #19 on: 31 August 2011, 02:01:35 »
Wait a minute why was the Estevez a support vee?  I thought it was a plain jane Age of War combat vee... makes no sense to mass produce something thats gonna suck, when spending a fraction more will give you a massively better unit (IE no +1 TH mod).  Except of course combat industrial mechs, those things would be too damn cool and need to be produced in huge gobs!

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #20 on: 31 August 2011, 02:40:55 »
Nothing you've done addresses the fire control (combat vehicles have advanced fire control built in, while the Estevez is stuck with basic, meaning it takes a +1 TM on every shot), the difference in communications capabilities (something that admittedly gets lost in the game's abstraction), the fact that the underlying technology is a century and a half out of date, or the two things I didn't think of but are also going to be factors in their thinking: the oversized crew and the way it's a massive gas hog.

Given all the problems, I find it difficult to argue that the Estevez wasn't due for replacement.  Yes, there are things that could have done to extend the Estevez's lifespan, but you can't get away from the fact that it's a TR C support vehicle in a TR D combat vehicle world.  So, given that, I think going ahead and building the Tiger made more sense from the AFFS's point of view.  If the armor's such a massive problem, pull the SRMs.

EDIT: This is not to say that I think the Tiger is a vastly superior design on an individual level.  It's not and especially not if you pull out the stops like replacing the Estevez's fire control.  But the advances in logistics (including the fact that you can pack in 4 with spares for the tonnage necessary to move 3 Estevezes before vehicle bays became the normal way of moving vehicles around) and what your industrial base will be capable of are worth it in my opinion.

Your post's logic (if I'm reading it correctly) is basically say that any unit needing a tech grade overhaul should be entirely replaced. I disagree. We see this in Mechs and Vees receiving XL Engines, Targeting Computers, swapping the AC/10 for LB-10X, etc. The Advanced Fire Control would NOT have been a huge issue, nor would swapping it out for higher tech grade BAR-10 armor. It already featured an Armored Chassis, so the upgrade was MORE than possible, it was probable.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #21 on: 31 August 2011, 07:08:46 »
Wait a minute why was the Estevez a support vee?  I thought it was a plain jane Age of War combat vee... makes no sense to mass produce something thats gonna suck, when spending a fraction more will give you a massively better unit (IE no +1 TH mod).  Except of course combat industrial mechs, those things would be too damn cool and need to be produced in huge gobs!

Because by the rules Combat Vehicles don't exist until the 2400s or so IIRC. Every vehicle up until then is a Support Vee. Right around the time that BattleMechs show up, ASFs get more common... the Combat Vehicle is also introduced.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #22 on: 31 August 2011, 09:20:11 »
Your post's logic (if I'm reading it correctly) is basically say that any unit needing a tech grade overhaul should be entirely replaced. I disagree. We see this in Mechs and Vees receiving XL Engines, Targeting Computers, swapping the AC/10 for LB-10X, etc. The Advanced Fire Control would NOT have been a huge issue, nor would swapping it out for higher tech grade BAR-10 armor. It already featured an Armored Chassis, so the upgrade was MORE than possible, it was probable.

You're overgeneralizing the argument.  I'm talking about the Estevez in particular, a design that was verging on being obsolete compared to other support vehicles, let alone combat vehicles.  Combat vehicles and 'Mechs have more potential to be refit in the first place and will generally age better as new technology becomes available.  I think replacing it made sense at that point.  Either way, it's just my opinion, and clearly we have different ones.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #23 on: 01 September 2011, 07:59:12 »
My memory is failing me now, and I don't have my old TRs handy...but how does the Tiger stack up against the Vedette?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #24 on: 01 September 2011, 10:59:52 »
My memory is failing me now, and I don't have my old TRs handy...but how does the Tiger stack up against the Vedette?

cheers,

Gabe

More firepower, especially at close range, but slower and with somewhat less reach (AC/10's -/5/10/15 vs. the AC/5's 3/6/12/18, and the SRMs and extra machine guns only come in at nine hexes or less). In terms of armor they're actually closely matched -- they both carry the same six tons of standard plate and even distribute it rather similarly (the Vedette falls short of the 20-points-everywhere standard by two on each side, the Tiger by four on the rear, and that's really it). The Vedette is also some 99 points cheaper in terms of BV (475 vs. the Tiger's 574 according to MegaMek) and only requires about three quarters of the Tiger's per-unit C-bill investment.

I think that sets the pattern. The T-12 is stronger up close and would take the Vedette's lunch money at those ranges, while the Vedette is cheaper and has an edge in mobility. They're both about equally tough, which against an enemy that is a credible threat to either will work against the Tiger because it's both easier to hit and will likely be perceived as the bigger threat.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #25 on: 01 September 2011, 13:31:14 »
In a historical sense, one may be interested to know that the Vedette is about a century newer with it coming out on the eve of the Reunification War (the approximate date is in TROVA's Wolverine entry), although the situation is reversed entirely when you regard the game's history rather than the universe's.

For the price (which was surprising), most of the C-Bill difference is in the weapons, primarily the SRMs and the larger autocannon.  The size multiplier's not that big and the Vedette's engine after the multipliers is actually slightly more expensive.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #26 on: 01 May 2017, 01:10:14 »
What is the Cbill cost of a Tiger as the MUL does not have one listed?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #27 on: 01 May 2017, 10:23:53 »
What is the Cbill cost of a Tiger as the MUL does not have one listed?

$975,208 SLD/C-Bills
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #28 on: 01 May 2017, 14:53:20 »
I'm glad their still costs.  Getting away from it kinda sucks, but you go be prepare per era for cost changes.
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Empyrus

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #29 on: 01 May 2017, 15:09:28 »
I once wondered about the lack of costs for some units in MUL and the answer was "We haven't gotten around doing it yet".
It is not "prices are going away".

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #30 on: 01 May 2017, 22:28:23 »
I wish it had gone into the books being 5t lighter . . . we could have used it while at 55t it feels like something to fill page space with the previously mentioned Po & Bulldog . . . IMO its superior to the Bulldog due to the weight cost of the LL and its lesser damage.

As far as the Jihad . . . I could see the Periphery March putting it into production or the Filtevelt Coalition since it fits with their Quikscell T-Bolt carriers & other vehicles.   For post-Jihad it simply becomes the question of if you want to put a SFE in with a Plasma Rifle or go LB-10X and the SRM gets replaced by a MML.  Of course for that to matter you have to make the armor be able to take more punishment over what it had before.

Looks are ok, though the person who was complaining about the driver's vision area . . . that are some modern tanks that have something close to that but the slope is not to that degree.  IMO it begs the question where the TC and gunner are positioned.

Anyone done a Marsden or Merkava company vs the Tiger?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #31 on: 02 May 2017, 20:47:29 »
Thanks to Tigershark for posting the Cbill cost.

I want to use a lance of these for a down on their luck merc unit (FS aligned). I looked at bulldogs but thought these would be more in character and we know how much FS love their autocannons. I also think they could have been the inspiration for the myrmidon to the point I'm using the models to represent the Tiger.

Even though the MUL has them extinct in late SW the fluff in the book says they were produced throughout the SW era so I'm thinking the MUL is waiting on an update.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #32 on: 03 May 2017, 06:39:44 »
The MUL doesn't have an availability listed in the Late Succession Wars.  That's different from "extinct", although it's possible by the last sub-era (which starts in 3020), it's still going to be marked that way or dwindling severely in numbers.  (Remember that the LosTech sub-era runs for 120 years, plenty of time for something once-widespread to go functionally extinct.)  The book's talking specifically about the height of the Succession Wars, too.  If you'd like the MUL Team to take a look at the final availability, post in the MUL thread in the Errata forum and we can dig into it further internally.

Of course, as I point out periodically, the MUL is a guideline and recommendation, not a straitjacket.  If you want your mercs to have rusty, beat up old Tigers, they've got rusty, beat up old Tigers.  One of the Wolf's Dragoons scenarios had a run in with a couple of Mackies centuries after everyone thought they were lost to history, for instance, and in the Succession Wars, the Mongoose is known to have individual examples in the hands of the Houses but they don't have access listed because it's one or two for each House.

For the record, Bulldogs are actually quite in character for an FS-aligned unit.  The Suns bought a number of them before the Succession Wars for the same reason a lot of people bought them: It was cheap.  They used a lot of replacement parts to jury-rig them, making it a logical enough unit to pass on to militias or mercs.  After the Fourth Succession War, the FS also stole a lot of them from Ares but that looks like it's after when you're planning to set things.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #33 on: 15 May 2017, 12:21:15 »
Considering that the Bulldog in TRO 3039 is stated to have been built in the Hundreds of thousands sense it's introduction (in 2673), and that this was a some what lukewarm production run... (other tanks have 2 or 3x this rate).

As for how the FS get the bull dog? well they could be very old tanks (they predate the Succession wars be some 200ish years), built in between the succession wars, captured vehicles, shell companys, minor in house production (a few production runs here and their that only last a few years with various groups (I.e. not long enough to get a dedicated producer listed)) and so on.

As for the Tiger still around, it would not be impossible in some backwater to have a few running around, perhaps a world every so often builds a few on a whim to suit it's needs, perhaps their actually knock offs/ vehicles that have almost identical stats but are actually a different vehicle (I.e. like the Soviet era T-55 and the Chinese Type 59, basically the same vehicle but their are differences between them, but not enough to make to much of a difference when you granulize the details. sort of like one having a Rand PPC while the other has a Kreuss PPC).

I tend to view that the listed Manufactures are the major organizations, and that their are a good number of smaller less capable groups out their that are not listed (notably in shipyards, I view that their are a number of civilian ship yards that largely only build civilian use dropships, jumpships and small craft that are not listed in the TROs, and the ones that are listed are the primarily government and merc suppliers). Basically many of these smaller groups are largely their to supply a given world and perhaps their neighbors and generally do not work with the national government and so are typically not listed.   

So it would not be impossible to me that their could be some low level use of what is largely considered extinct or long out of production units, out in the back waters.

Edit: IIRC something along the lines of what Ive been saying is stated to have happened with the infiltrator I battle armor while it was out of production/ front line use a large number of private and secondary user groups scooped them up and stated using them and small industry's poped up supporting them.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2017, 12:24:29 by Nebfer »

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #34 on: 15 May 2017, 14:23:14 »
I really see units like the Tiger T-12 and Merkava Mk. VII as "proxy" units for all of the generic tanks which are in production during each era. It may not be exactly titled as per a TRO entry, but there ARE other vehicles (and even 'Mechs) which exist on the battlefield that are too insignificant to bother cataloguing. The forwards in the Vehicles section of TRO:3039 state this, I believe (might have been 3026? I don't have them in front of me). So saying they're "available" doesn't necessarily mean you need to pin down an exact plant. Most tanks made were very similar, like the Weapon and Missile Carriers. The 'stand-outs' were a 'first of their kind' deal, not representing a totally unique design in-and-of-itself.

In other words, "use the Tiger T-12 in just about any era or configuration". You're probably close to something else that was being made.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #35 on: 19 May 2017, 09:27:55 »
The case for replacing the Estevez is significantly more compelling than you're making it out to be because you're forgetting that we're comparing a combat vehicle to a TR C support vehicle.  The underlying technology was no longer compatible with military-grade hardware, it was far heavier than it needed to be to deliver the expected performance, the fire control needed to be modernized, and the communications were the equivalent of a CB radio.  The armor should be even worse than it is since it predates the point where BAR 8 was introduced in the first place by over a century.

The question, therefore, isn't whether putting a new gun on would solve the Estevez's problems.  It wouldn't and it wouldn't have made more sense, either, so the AFFS was looking at the need to make a new tank from the ground up either way.

  Actually the Estevez has been erratad to BAR 7 armor.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #36 on: 19 May 2017, 13:12:44 »
I have to ask: Why exactly are you correcting a post that was made six years ago? ???
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #37 on: 19 May 2017, 14:40:45 »
I have to ask: Why exactly are you correcting a post that was made six years ago? ???

  I didn't, I noticed the second to top forum thread in the Fan Articles section was on an Age of War tank.  Having a special love for Age of War Tanks I read through the thread and gave my input. 

  I don't normally note the time stamp of each post so I had no idea the post was six years old until you told me ::)
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: T-12 Tiger Medium Tank
« Reply #38 on: 21 May 2017, 10:54:01 »
Folks, speaking from experience, there is a limit to the authors' desire to be nitpicked to death.  Having people "trying to be helpful" like this doesn't do a lot for your enthusiasm, especially when it feels like they're trying to call you on the carpet publicly years later.  Be polite, don't come off like you're being snippy, and don't hound us.  Maybe think about sending a PM.  We're people doing this on our time to share our love of the game, so quit pouring cold water on our enjoyment.

Personally, I find this particular correction even more irritating because not only is the post six years old (and entirely correct when it was written), my grumbling about the Estevez throwing a monkey wrench into the TacOps BAR dates was what reminded jymset to post the errata in question.

 

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