Author Topic: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?  (Read 5438 times)

Ice_Trey

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #30 on: 04 April 2013, 12:25:45 »
I'm more interested in what the Sharks are buying.

I mean... Sure, you can buy all sorts of ridiculous CDS gear from them... but I can't imagine that the clans would be buying stuff like luxury goods - that's just not their style.

Madcat IIs for wheat and sheep?

GreekFire

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #31 on: 04 April 2013, 12:27:44 »
I'm more interested in what the Sharks are buying.

I mean... Sure, you can buy all sorts of ridiculous CDS gear from them... but I can't imagine that the clans would be buying stuff like luxury goods - that's just not their style.

Madcat IIs for wheat and sheep?

This right here. What are they buying, and what are they building? Looking forward to the next sourcebooks.
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Colt Ward

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #32 on: 04 April 2013, 20:24:33 »
Well, the only time something like that gets mentioned IIRC was about a hoverlimo on Atreus.  Khalsa was thinking about the quality craftsmanship and understated elegance.  He knew several worlds where such a vehicle would go for a good price.

And later the Foxes were making a contract to export a special wheat variety from a world, claiming they could bring in a bigger profit than Oriente-controlled trade could for the world.

Honestly, I see the Khanates and Aimags like the trade caravans of history performing something like the1700s Triangle Trade, though the different routes overlap so products could be swapped.  If you notice my list had BE700 Joust, SM1 series Tank Destroyers, Pack Hunters, Legionnaire (Export) and Po Tanks as suggested items.  None of these are produced by the Foxes from what we know, instead they would trade for them, and yes with the Nova Cats and Warden Wolves they would trade raw resources (to be fed into weapons factories) and finished Clan weapons, parts and supplies.  The raw resources would come from the factions buying the Clan gear, or trading their IS production for the Clan gear/parts to maintain what they have.

As the largest trading fleet, I just think it would be too easy from say Achernar BMs to ship twenty Legionnaires and tons of parts to Regulus and cover the freight in another Legionnaire as direct payment to the Foxes.  Who later trade that to . . .
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Kitsune413

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #33 on: 04 April 2013, 22:05:01 »
As the largest trading fleet, I just think it would be too easy from say Achernar BMs to ship twenty Legionnaires and tons of parts to Regulus and cover the freight in another Legionnaire as direct payment to the Foxes.  Who later trade that to . . .

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SCC

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #34 on: 05 April 2013, 00:34:42 »
I'm sure the Sharks were selling things like consumer goods and financial services since before the invasion.

The long Pax Republica and the suppression of the arms market that went along with it would only make these non-military products an ever more sizeable chunk of what the Foxes are hawking across the Sphere.
Actually unless the Houses decided to drastically reduce their military budgets I see the reverse happening, where they once had, say, 150 'Mech regiments that constantly need replacements for units lost in battle they now have only 100 that aren't getting beat up all the time that means that you can spend more money on those fewer 'Mechs.

Yes that money could go into the economy, but there's a limit to how much could be spent that way and outside of the Davion Families financial network I don't know if the Houses have the ability to do that, at least on that sort of scale

Isanova

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #35 on: 05 April 2013, 10:44:53 »
Actually unless the Houses decided to drastically reduce their military budgets I see the reverse happening, where they once had, say, 150 'Mech regiments that constantly need replacements for units lost in battle they now have only 100 that aren't getting beat up all the time that means that you can spend more money on those fewer 'Mechs.

Yes that money could go into the economy, but there's a limit to how much could be spent that way and outside of the Davion Families financial network I don't know if the Houses have the ability to do that, at least on that sort of scale

There's a limit on social spending?

Short of the CC I don't think any nation spends significantly on their people's welfare, but there's certainly a lot of ways to go upwards.
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Istal_Devalis

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #36 on: 05 April 2013, 10:52:09 »
Well, and often mentioned factoid about the 'peace' period prior to the Blackout is a lot of once Military funding got channeled into rebuilding civilian infrastructure. So in a roundabout way, yeah they are spending on civilian welfare. :D

wellspring

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #37 on: 05 April 2013, 11:57:05 »
Actually unless the Houses decided to drastically reduce their military budgets I see the reverse happening, where they once had, say, 150 'Mech regiments that constantly need replacements for units lost in battle they now have only 100 that aren't getting beat up all the time that means that you can spend more money on those fewer 'Mechs.

Straight-up economic logic (not to mention the experience of this century) tells me that when there are arms limitations in effect, that spending-per-unit goes up. So in this case that means smaller militaries with larger, higher-tech battlemechs and better-trained mechwarriors. That's just how things work. That dovetails nicely with my understanding of the scramble for quantity-over-quality post-blackout.

Yes that money could go into the economy, but there's a limit to how much could be spent that way and outside of the Davion Families financial network I don't know if the Houses have the ability to do that, at least on that sort of scale

Well, really there isn't. There's three broad ways to spend a so-called peace dividend. A) Channel it into bread-and-circuses, that is, direct payments to favored constituencies; B) infrastructure spending, in all its myriad forms, and/or C) rather than spending it, simply fail to tax that revenue in the first place (which some economists see as a form of "spending" as well). Rather than break Rule 4, let's just stipulate that any way you spend, you do eventually have diminishing returns on that expenditure. Most indifference curves favor balanced spending on many things rather than plowing increased income into one area. Most political systems (including aristocracies) favor spreading out the goodies to many interest groups rather than favoring one and leaving the rest out in the cold.

And more importantly, military planners won't want their budgets cut at all, especially when centuries of war have given them great influence, and especially when the Great Houses themselves justify their existence, authority, and budgets based on guaranteeing the security of their worlds. So one way to square the circle is to build civilian infrastructure for military purposes.

Roads are a classic example that stretches from Rome to the US superhighway system; or their naval analogs like the Panama and Suez canals. In BT, that means more JumpShips, more recharge stations, and more naval construction/repair facilities. The latter is also nice because the Army of the Future is made of endosteel, which has to be made in orbit. Certainly the Ghost Bears long ago learned the value of asteroid mining. I'd be very surprised not to see an updated Mule, Jumbo, or other civilian hauler.

Updated electronics and IT would be another. Conveniently, this can happen off-camera and then be ruined when the HPGs break down. But not knowing that the crash is coming, the investment makes a great deal of sense. Especially since the security of the HPG network is compromised by the fact that it was built and operated for centuries by a company that eventually splintered off the WoB. Surely a lot will be spent to re-secure the network. It's also convenient because out-of-game, we have 30 years of computing history to account for, and updated IT is an excuse to update the setting to account for real-world changes.

Still another is updating all your factories to 3050 standards. The military has already done this, but you still have vast swaths of the civilian economy that's in the mad max 3025 era. In the rush to fight the Clans and later the Word of Blake, they've been left behind. Plus, there are vast stores of second-line, garrison and militia forces that are still 3025-era. Updating all that is hideously expensive, so why not do it when your front-line forces are in fine shape and not being used?

You can also plow your work into R&D. You build a small number of highly advanced and expensive super-mechs just to keep the scientists busy and the production lines open. In a war, you don't build the super-mechs, but you do use the infrastructure and selected newtech to build workhorse designs. Like a cadre system for R&D.

All those LoaderMechs and ConstructionMechs-- the so-called peace-tech -- have strong military applications as well. That logistics is an integral part of warfare is cliche because it's so true. You can dump spending into that and have the ability to construct forward operating bases and quick-resupply networks for your front-line forces and still call it PeaceTech. One tried and true technique is to combine heavy subsidies from the Houses for private manufacture of IndustrialMechs and merchant dropships with stipulations that they can be nationalized in wartime. The US does that with both its civilian air and merchant marine fleets; many countries do the same. That the Foxes can sell the Great Houses tech they can't produce domestically is an interesting problem; do you buy from the Foxes or spend oodles of money trying to reinvent it yourselves? (England and Spain ran into this problem with higher-tech Flemish/Dutch/Italian cannon; the two nations addressed the challenge in very different ways and with very different outcomes. It's a famous case study in tech policy circles.)

You might also see in the early post-Jihad years a move to swap out weapons for cargo hoists on certain obsolete designs (a kind of MWDA-in-reverse). It's a cliche in diplomatic circles that when you negotiate a disarmament that the crap your generals have been trying to eliminate but have to keep in their inventory for political reasons is the first stuff that lands on the negotiating table.

So there's plenty of game-relevant ways that military spending can be channeled into that is "civilian infrastructure reconstruction" for diplomatic and PR purposes but still has an impact on the tabletop and in TROs.

To me, the interesting question isn't "What are the Shark/Foxes selling?" Though the above should provide some suggestions. But they have a variety of sources and it's tough to untangle whether they're producers or middlemen. They like to play things close to the vest, so no doubt they aren't forthcoming about where the goodies are coming from anyway. So the really interesting question to me is "What are the Shark/Foxes buying?" That tells me much more about their own economy and those of the Great Houses and IS Clans.

I'm also curious about whether the WarShip-mounted HPGs, especially the ones the Foxes use, are affected by the blackout. If so, it's a major threat. If not, it's a major opportunity. A hostile takeover of ComStar would be a very interesting move, but even competing with them as a boutique provider and skimming the cream off the communications market would net the Foxes vast profit.

SCC

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #38 on: 05 April 2013, 17:20:31 »
Well, really there isn't. There's three broad ways to spend a so-called peace dividend. A) Channel it into bread-and-circuses, that is, direct payments to favored constituencies; B) infrastructure spending, in all its myriad forms, and/or C) rather than spending it, simply fail to tax that revenue in the first place (which some economists see as a form of "spending" as well). Rather than break Rule 4, let's just stipulate that any way you spend, you do eventually have diminishing returns on that expenditure. Most indifference curves favor balanced spending on many things rather than plowing increased income into one area. Most political systems (including aristocracies) favor spreading out the goodies to many interest groups rather than favoring one and leaving the rest out in the cold.

I'd say welfare spending occurs at the planetary level for the most part, so that rules out A, considering that we don't know the actual tax structure of the Houses that rules out C and there's not enough infrastructure to support infrastructure spending on that scale (road workers, factories that make factory parts, etc...)

Isanova

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #39 on: 05 April 2013, 18:40:10 »

I'm also curious about whether the WarShip-mounted HPGs, especially the ones the Foxes use, are affected by the blackout. If so, it's a major threat. If not, it's a major opportunity. A hostile takeover of ComStar would be a very interesting move, but even competing with them as a boutique provider and skimming the cream off the communications market would net the Foxes vast profit.

Presumably they are fine, but they can't operate if there is no working HPG system to receive them. To interface with one another they would have to know where eachother is exactly, which isn't practical for normal use operations.
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Istal_Devalis

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #40 on: 05 April 2013, 20:52:45 »
I'd say welfare spending occurs at the planetary level for the most part, so that rules out A, considering that we don't know the actual tax structure of the Houses that rules out C and there's not enough infrastructure to support infrastructure spending on that scale (road workers, factories that make factory parts, etc...)
Considering we're told outright that a lot of it was spent on Civilian infrastructure I dont think it's as impossible as you want to believe. Heck, some of the fluff even attributes a great deal of the recent economic properity,  pre-Blackout, on that rebuilding effort.

Jellico

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #41 on: 05 April 2013, 23:51:16 »
I'm more interested in what the Sharks are buying.

Balkanized Inner Sphere states. See ER:3145.

As soon as I read it I thought East India Company.

SCC

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #42 on: 06 April 2013, 00:08:40 »
Balkanized Inner Sphere states. See ER:3145.

As soon as I read it I thought East India Company.
Which one, British or Dutch?

Jellico

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #43 on: 06 April 2013, 00:19:54 »
British. Early days, after they got rejected from they far east.

Arguably either could apply.

glitterboy2098

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #44 on: 06 April 2013, 00:31:59 »
Which one, British or Dutch?
i'd say british. the dutch were much more pure trade focused, the british had a tendency to take over places in the process.

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #45 on: 06 April 2013, 02:28:21 »
More a case of "Buy one Warhammer IIC and get the second one a quarter off..."
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Jellico

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #46 on: 06 April 2013, 03:42:35 »
i'd say british. the dutch were much more pure trade focused, the british had a tendency to take over places in the process.
Accidental empires taken at the point of the Denarius (or Pound) are the best empires. O0

Colt Ward

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #47 on: 06 April 2013, 06:39:02 »
You have to wonder how well a faction would do in the MWDA period if they Foxes declared an embargo.  What was it about the Crusader Wolves trying to take over a portion of the wandering fleets and the Foxes paid them back?
Colt Ward
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Jaim Magnus

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #48 on: 06 April 2013, 06:58:51 »
The Sea Foxes seem poised to become the most important connection between factions, ousting that deadbeat ComStar ;)
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Kitsune413

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #49 on: 07 April 2013, 14:29:19 »
Hey do we get any three Federated Suns worlds we want? :D Is New Avalon on the table?
Every man lives by exchanging - Adam Smith

Colt Ward

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #50 on: 07 April 2013, 18:15:39 »
Hmm, apparently selling Gossamers!  Decent armor for 11/17 VTOL with 3 cMPL . . .

Wonder if they are also selling Hounds from the Filtvelt?
Colt Ward
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Col Toda

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Re: What are the Shark/Foxes selling?
« Reply #51 on: 08 April 2013, 04:35:09 »
From  the Prototype book the Mad Cat MKII Enhanced . Any mech they can sell .
But more importantly. Ammo and raw weapons systems of clan origin . 
I do not like buying anything Clans Except Small Arms a Infantry Kits .
Sadly the Stone Rhino is the best Clan mech to acquire . Standard fusion engine ;
Gyro ; Internal Structure and Armor .  You just have to lay in a supply of weapons . 
You can make your own Gauss ammo of Clan size using the ammo provided as a template.
The problem with using any Clan stuff is the Endo-Steel is of a higher standard the
Ferro - Fibrous Armor is of a higher standard and the Ammo has different chamber sizes and
longer shelf life without degrading  as it can take years to just get to where it is used .
Mix tech becomes advanced as opposed to experimental everywhere in the IS by the 3090s
at the latest .  This mean Clan and IS techs have hammered out most of the incompatibility
problems. Which was done by the WOB tech to a certain extent as some of the designs have Clan
weapons . One comes to mind it the Streak LRM 10 .  I think they wised up and stop selling
the Stone Rhino as it does not have them coming back jonesing for more . The Idea of
Dependence of a supplier who will drop you at a drop of a hat as soon as any IS power
black lists your unit is bad.