The Unseen, an obsolete Explanation and a List

[worktroll]

Folks,

The below posts are all effectively obsolete - please see new stickied thread.

Worktroll, 22 August, 2011

As per forum rule 8: do not post any images of the Unseen in your posts. The list of current Unseen is:

• Wasp
  Stinger
  Valkyrie
  Phoenix Hawk
  Rifleman
  Crusader
  Archer
  Warhammer
  Marauder
  Longbow
  Marauder II
  Stinger LAM
  Wasp LAM
  Phoenix Hawk LAM
  

This means no artwork of these 'Mechs from any Sourcebook, Technical Readout or the images from the respective shows they originally debuted on. Nor may images of toys, models or other paraphernalia related to these Unseen be used in any form with the following exceptions:
- You may have an icon under your name with an Unseen Picture on it if you want, and
- You may post pictures of your painted miniatures.

Posting links to pictures on other sites is also acceptable.

What does all this mean? In short ...

1) You may freely put up pictures of any minis you own, be they Unseen, Reseen, plastic model kits or gnawed out of cakes of soap by trained hamsters. The more the merrier! (Btw, posting pictures of minis you don't own, without permission from their owner, is not a good thing. I only include this, as there are unscrupulous people who used to use images taken from other people's work in eBat auctions to try & fool unsuspecting buyers - that's the only reason I mention this aspect)

2) You may also put up pictures of any Reseen minis that you own or have permission for.

3) You may not post images taken from any publication which depict any of the current list of Unseen, or the source material from which they werre drawn. So no Macross Valkyries, Mospedia Bioroids, or scans from the original TROs. This also includes any artwork which substantially includes components taken directly from such artwork. This also includes related images - eg. don't post document images of the Destroid MAC III, VF-19, etc - leave well enough alone, please.

4) You may post links to web pages or illustrations which show images covered above. (One can only assume that lawyers understand the net difference. Hey, we're just looking to stay out of trouble)

Hopefully, that covers the questions. Note:

a) I'm still happy to answer questions on "is this legit" - but as for the "why & wherefore", or "who do I shoot" ones, look for the rehashes of the subject in the General Discussions forum.

b) Being BattleTech, there's probably going to be errata to the above - please PM me with any errors you notice, I'll retcon them in in finest TPTB style

Cheers,

Worktroll, Moderator

[Papabees]

I have some Btech scale Macross models that I have repainted. If I post pics of them as Macross models is that OK or still a no no?

[worktroll]

From above:

1) You may freely put up pictures of any minis you own, be they Unseen, Reseen, plastic model kits or gnawed out of cakes of soap by trained hamsters. The more the merrier!

The main Unseen rules are about artwork, not minis. However, be aware that there are some people making illegal reproductions of Macross minis. AFAIK, the only legit BT-scale macross minis are:
- the FASA-era Unseen
- Dark Horse Robotech minis
- Gashapon (Japanese plastic minis).

If in doubt, PM me with details of where you acquired them, and/or a pic.

W.

[Papabees]

From above:
 

The main Unseen rules are about artwork, not minis. However, be aware that there are some people making illegal reproductions of Macross minis. AFAIK, the only legit BT-scale macross minis are:
- the FASA-era Unseen
- Dark Horse Robotech minis
- Gashapon (Japanese plastic minis).

If in doubt, PM me with details of where you acquired them, and/or a pic.

W.

thanks

[M-Rex]

'Troll...will you be updating this list with the most current info from GenCon '11?

[worktroll]

Alas, yes, soon.

[Vaaish]

I'm a bit curious, the best my interweb scrying has been able to find is that more are going on the unseen list. Any word on which ones it is?

[StCptMara]

I'm a bit curious, the best my interweb scrying has been able to find is that more are going on the unseen list. Any word on which ones it is?

*sighs* Great...we just get stuff back in '09, and Harmony Gold finds ways to take it away again :(

[Dr Lucky]

I was really thinking we were getting a "good news" annoucement about the Unseen.  I was kind of hoping that we were about to hear we were getting the old minis back in production for the not-so-unseen-anymore like the Goliath and Scorpion.

[M-Rex]

I was really thinking we were getting a "good news" annoucement about the Unseen.  I was kind of hoping that we were about to hear we were getting the old minis back in production for the not-so-unseen-anymore like the Goliath and Scorpion.

I think it's time to just let them go and retcon the entire group.

[Stormcrow]

I think it's time to just let them go and retcon the entire group.

I concur wholeheartedly

[Frabby]

I think it's time to just let them go and retcon the entire group.

I concur wholeheartedly

And I, for the record, strongly disagree with this sentiment.  >:(
There, it was said. So please let's not have that bickering again. The unseen are a sore wound for most of us one way or another, and best left alone unless something positive can be said.

[RJM]

I think it's time to just let them go and retcon the entire group.

This is the standpoint I just don't understand at all.  Yeah, it sucks that we'll probably never have them back in a manner that allows new art/minis/whatever.  But what exactly is gained by "removing" them from all historical in-universe settings?  It's not like the people that are still attached to the images will just forget they ever existing and stop feeling how they feel, regardless.

All that old product will still be out there, and all the old minis.  They just make even less sense after a total retcon.

I think Frabby has it right.  Just leave it be.

[M-Rex]

This is the standpoint I just don't understand at all.  Yeah, it sucks that we'll probably never have them back in a manner that allows new art/minis/whatever.  But what exactly is gained by "removing" them from all historical in-universe settings?  It's not like the people that are still attached to the images will just forget they ever existing and stop feeling how they feel, regardless.

All that old product will still be out there, and all the old minis.  They just make even less sense after a total retcon.

I think Frabby has it right.  Just leave it be.

They will never come back.  They will never be utilized in any form in the game again...other than 'stats'.  The artwork for any of them is pariah.  They are a constant source of strife, consternation, and legal wrangling.  They are obsolete.

Get over it.  Move on.

"If the art is gone, you must retcon."

[Col.Hengist]

I really love the unseens. That being said, we will never get them back. I'd actually really like to see a new TRO 3025 with all the unseens as the PP art along with all the 2750 downgrades and all the primitives/ age of war era mechs like the hammerhands and ones like that.

[RJM]

They will never come back.  They will never be utilized in any form in the game again...other than 'stats'.  The artwork for any of them is pariah.  They are a constant source of strife, consternation, and legal wrangling.  They are obsolete.

Get over it.  Move on.

"If the art is gone, you must retcon."

Thanks for totally reading my post and engaging in a discussion...  You're pretty much the only real source of strife and consternation I'm finding in here right now too, by the way. 

No, they won't come back.  But so what?  What I was asking you in your extreme stance on the matter, is what exactly is really gained by pretending they never existed via retcon? 

I'm ok that they're gone, and stuck in a 'historical' function effectively.  It's your annoyingly extreme idea at a solution, and abrasively "I'm right, you're wrong, get over it" posts that bother me more than anything.

[M-Rex]

Thanks for totally reading my post and engaging in a discussion...  You're pretty much the only real source of strife and consternation I'm finding in here right now too, by the way. 

No, they won't come back.  But so what?  What I was asking you in your extreme stance on the matter, is what exactly is really gained by pretending they never existed via retcon? 

I'm ok that they're gone, and stuck in a 'historical' function effectively.  It's your annoyingly extreme idea at a solution, and abrasively "I'm right, you're wrong, get over it" posts that bother me more than anything.

All that negative stuff goes away with a retcon.  The unseen no longer are a point of contention.  The artwork is no longer a point of contention.  The use of the miniatures in official sources no longer is a point of contention.  The 'we can't use them - we can use them - we can't use them - we can use SOME of them - Oops...nope, we can't use them after all' point of contention goes away.  The bus drives on.

What's the benefit in keeping them and not retconning?

And I am right.  Just cope.

[00Dawg]

Happy older fans. We like it when hope remains alive.  TPTB have certainly invested a lot of time and effort into recovering them, so I'd guess they think they're worth it.

It seems to me that all these "points of contention" remain the purview of our fanbase, vastly constricted to the internet, and are usually started over aesthetics. 

By the same token, what's the benefit in retconning them?  You don't get another set of miniatures if the Reseen always looked that way, and if you do want new ones, how many designs do we have right now that are already in need of a miniature?  You don't get free art to stick in PDFs of old sourcebooks; that's not worth the time and effort.  The old miniatures will still be around, agents will still be banned from using them at official events, and some people will still show up with them on occasion.  You'll also still have to explain the events to anyone that asks, either with the short or long version.  Is it that we won't have to discuss them anymore?  I have a short answer for that problem as well.

Meanwhile, here's hoping whomever puts up the next Unseen information sticky goes ahead and locks it.

[Crunch]

Happy older fans. We like it when hope remains alive.  TPTB have certainly invested a lot of time and effort into recovering them, so I'd guess they think they're worth it.

It seems to me that all these "points of contention" remain the purview of our fanbase, vastly constricted to the internet, and are usually started over aesthetics. 

By the same token, what's the benefit in retconning them?  You don't get another set of miniatures if the Reseen always looked that way, and if you do want new ones, how many designs do we have right now that are already in need of a miniature?  You don't get free art to stick in PDFs of old sourcebooks; that's not worth the time and effort.  The old miniatures will still be around, agents will still be banned from using them at official events, and some people will still show up with them on occasion.  You'll also still have to explain the events to anyone that asks, either with the short or long version.  Is it that we won't have to discuss them anymore?  I have a short answer for that problem as well.

Meanwhile, here's hoping whomever puts up the next Unseen information sticky goes ahead and locks it.

As an older fan I'd enjoy being able to show the most common units in the universe in Historicals. My first choice would be getting the rights but since that looks like its NOT going to happen coming up with new art that fits the Aesthetic of the SL/SW better than the unseen do would be a mitzvah.

[Dr Lucky]

Meanwhile, here's hoping whomever puts up the next Unseen information sticky goes ahead and locks it.

Here's to that!

I was just looking for information and speculating as to what it might be.  I certainly didn't mean to get everyone so worked up...

[00Dawg]

As an older fan I'd enjoy being able to show the most common units in the universe in Historicals. My first choice would be getting the rights but since that looks like its NOT going to happen coming up with new art that fits the Aesthetic of the SL/SW better than the unseen do would be a mitzvah.

Assuming you meant the Reseen, you mean this doesn't just warm your heart?   ::)


Anyway, you do have a valid point.  If there was a retcon plus new art, that would be a benefit of that process.  I suspect we'd end up with more arguments over aesthetics, though.

[JPArbiter]

I say Brent Evans appoints a temporary replacement for himself as art director, and locks himself in a vault where they keep the Colonels Secret Recipe and the coca-cola formula, and works away until he redesigns succession war era unseens from the ground up ala the Wolverine II from Operation Kondike (which will act as the replacement for the Wolverine)

[Sigma]

EDIT: Agreed with below post.

[Amalor Myrnnyx]

I saw we continue this discussion in a regular thread, and leave the announcement thread for, I don't know, announcements?

[BigDuke66]

Well from the original Unseens we have got some back.
Check this list:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

Of those only these are still a problem:
Wasp
Stinger
Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk
Rifleman
Crusader
Archer
Warhammer
Marauder
Longbow
Marauder II
Stinger LAM
Wasp LAM
Phoenix Hawk LAM

We got some back and sooner or later we get them all back, no need to waste time for retcon especially as there is nothing"wrong" with them, we just can't use the art an that is only officially.
It was an "acceptable"(at best) way the change the art for the refitted version with all the new tech flowing into them but there is simply no need to do that with the original versions, especially on a 3025 level those units are more or less used daily and have burned themselves in there original appearance into those players that use them but would they care about a retcon version?
No
And would others not using them care about new art?
No.
So no need to even think about retcon the original art, same counts for minis, those who use them mostly have them and those who don't use them don't are about new minis, so no gain on that side too.

And if someone can't stand the topic "Unseen" then he should simply move on instead of throwing up heretic ideas.


@00Dawg
That cover almost make me vomit.

[M-Rex]

Well from the original Unseens we have got some back.
Check this list:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

Of those only these are still a problem:
Wasp
Stinger
Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk
Rifleman
Crusader
Archer
Warhammer
Marauder
Longbow
Marauder II
Stinger LAM
Wasp LAM
Phoenix Hawk LAM

We got some back and sooner or later we get them all back, no need to waste time for retcon especially as there is nothing"wrong" with them, we just can't use the art an that is only officially.
It was an "acceptable"(at best) way the change the art for the refitted version with all the new tech flowing into them but there is simply no need to do that with the original versions, especially on a 3025 level those units are more or less used daily and have burned themselves in there original appearance into those players that use them but would they care about a retcon version?
No
And would others not using them care about new art?
No.
So no need to even think about retcon the original art, same counts for minis, those who use them mostly have them and those who don't use them don't are about new minis, so no gain on that side too.

And if someone can't stand the topic "Unseen" then he should simply move on instead of throwing up heretic ideas.


@00Dawg
That cover almost make me vomit.

Alright.  Let's say you are CGL and you want to produce a supplement that takes place during the Fourth Succession War...just suppose...

...what art do you use?

[Skyth]

There are plenty of mechs from the 3025 Era that are no unseen, so you could use artwork from those mechs.

[Blackhorse 6]

I saw we continue this discussion in a regular thread, and leave the announcement thread for, I don't know, announcements?

Quite right!  This thread is closed.

Should one wish to continue this discussion, take this to, lets say, General Discussion.

Thanks!
Paul