"Game Breaking Technology"

[Maskerade]

It gets WORSE if you use StratOps..

That depends entirely from whose perspective you are viewing the issue. I like ASFs as much as the next guy, and am probably a little too fond of orbit-to-surface fire (accuracy is desired but not necessary, I just like the pretty lights), but to me the game has been and always will be about mechs first and formost, and everything else second. If using advanced rules makes mechs more fun but everything else less so (more TacOps than StratOps here though), I'm not going to mind.

Thus, for me at least, having ASFs screwed over by advanced (and optional) rules isn't too much of a burden.
Also, we're drifting a bit. We've gone from discussing what equipment and technology we think breaks the game to a debate about the rules concerning Aerospace fighters. Whilst aerospace fighters are good, they're not that good, and therefore not game breaking.

[Kit deSummersville]

Especially if you have your own ASF force.

[Nahuris]

That is a long way from my experience.  Personally, I've found perhaps 80% of custom designs to be very close to canon designs, with one or two adjustments either to get rid of design flaws (ie moving crits around to reduce ammo bomb problems, or adding a tech like endo steel to increase payload), and the other 20% to be min-max designs intended to be played against other min-max designs.  Even the former stuff is objectively better, and the latter is just... well it's incredible what you can get out of 30 tons when you really sit down and try.

Really?  You don't see a difference between canon designs and stuff people make up themselves?  If so, that's fair enough, everyone gets to play how they want, but it's not a line of reasoning I've ever seen in another player IRL.

When someone says that they do not allow customs, I always ask if they allow variants?

Why? Because one of the first games I ever played, where it was a problem, was where one player asked to play his custom Centurion, which was intro tech with 8 medium lasers.... and when the ref said no.. that particular player spent a half an hour looking up "canon" designs, until he found the Hunchback 4P --- which is a 50 ton mech, with 8 medium lasers.  The only difference was that the Centurion custom had them in the right arm, instead of torso.... and when the ref threw a fit over that, because he felt the player was mocking him, the player asked if it would be ok to field a Komodo .... which did fit the rules under which the game was being run. Even in 3025 era play, it's easy.... for that matter, considering how often it's seen on the table, I don't understand why the Wolverine 6R is still considered anything but a rare variant, with the 6M being considered the standard, and the 6K a close variant.......

I have rarely seen custom designs that didn't already exist somewhere as a canon variant.....
So now, instead of using a mech construction program, people spend time on Sarna, looking mechs up by weight, and then looking until they find the canon variant that matches what they would have built anyways.....  For that matter, some of those variants are far more lethal than the customs I have created.

The game has evolved... for better or worse.... it's where it is. If customs are game breaking, then so are the officially listed variants..... let alone designs like the Hellstar. As I stated, my introduction to the HAG was via a Cygnus with twin HAG40's.

In addition, even if you go Canon Only, the MUL is starting to show, not only Clan Designs, but also Inner Sphere designs with clan weaponry built as Canon, as available for IS factions.
Per the rules, those are tournament legal..... so a recent claim of the Heavy PPC being too powerful is just silly.... How is a 10 ton PPC too powerful, when at the same time, there are equivalent mechs mounting a 6 ton version of the weapon, that ignores the minimum range, and increases the maximum range?

The only rule that need apply, at this point, is the basic "Don't be a Jerk".... and this rule needs to be considered both ways. Both the Pro Custom, and Canon Only crowds need to pay attention.... for the Pro Custom group, if you want to use your own designs, then you need to keep that in mind.... and for the Canon Only crowd.... unless you want to be totally undermined... you also need to realize that the custom you ban, is probably available in another equal weight format.... or that one of the Canon variants will probably be even more lethal than the one you would have faced. As for the rest....items like the Tsemp, etc.. are painful, when you face them the first time, much like my HAG experience noted above..... and then you learn some things....such as, how to use cover better, and how to better support your units. Sooner, or later, things balance out ........ just look at the Listen Kill Missiles from 3039. I soon expect that we'll get something like redundant circuit breakers, or hardened electronics, etc.... that will balance the Tsemp, the same way that things like ECM balance Narc, Streak, or C3 tech.

Maybe everyone should just make a sticker that says "Don't be a Jerk" and put it in the front cover of their books.....

Nahuris

[epic]

When someone says that they do not allow customs, I always ask if they allow variants?

Why? Because one of the first games I ever played, where it was a problem, was where one player asked to play his custom Centurion, which was intro tech with 8 medium lasers.... and when the ref said no.. that particular player spent a half an hour looking up "canon" designs, until he found the Hunchback 4P --- which is a 50 ton mech, with 8 medium lasers.  The only difference was that the Centurion custom had them in the right arm, instead of torso.... and when the ref threw a fit over that, because he felt the player was mocking him, the player asked if it would be ok to field a Komodo .... which did fit the rules under which the game was being run. Even in 3025 era play, it's easy.... for that matter, considering how often it's seen on the table, I don't understand why the Wolverine 6R is still considered anything but a rare variant, with the 6M being considered the standard, and the 6K a close variant.......

I have rarely seen custom designs that didn't already exist somewhere as a canon variant.....
So now, instead of using a mech construction program, people spend time on Sarna, looking mechs up by weight, and then looking until they find the canon variant that matches what they would have built anyways.....  For that matter, some of those variants are far more lethal than the customs I have created.

The game has evolved... for better or worse.... it's where it is. If customs are game breaking, then so are the officially listed variants..... let alone designs like the Hellstar. As I stated, my introduction to the HAG was via a Cygnus with twin HAG40's.

In addition, even if you go Canon Only, the MUL is starting to show, not only Clan Designs, but also Inner Sphere designs with clan weaponry built as Canon, as available for IS factions.
Per the rules, those are tournament legal..... so a recent claim of the Heavy PPC being too powerful is just silly.... How is a 10 ton PPC too powerful, when at the same time, there are equivalent mechs mounting a 6 ton version of the weapon, that ignores the minimum range, and increases the maximum range?

The only rule that need apply, at this point, is the basic "Don't be a Jerk".... and this rule needs to be considered both ways. Both the Pro Custom, and Canon Only crowds need to pay attention.... for the Pro Custom group, if you want to use your own designs, then you need to keep that in mind.... and for the Canon Only crowd.... unless you want to be totally undermined... you also need to realize that the custom you ban, is probably available in another equal weight format.... or that one of the Canon variants will probably be even more lethal than the one you would have faced. As for the rest....items like the Tsemp, etc.. are painful, when you face them the first time, much like my HAG experience noted above..... and then you learn some things....such as, how to use cover better, and how to better support your units. Sooner, or later, things balance out ........ just look at the Listen Kill Missiles from 3039. I soon expect that we'll get something like redundant circuit breakers, or hardened electronics, etc.... that will balance the Tsemp, the same way that things like ECM balance Narc, Streak, or C3 tech.

Maybe everyone should just make a sticker that says "Don't be a Jerk" and put it in the front cover of their books.....

Nahuris

Without delving too deeply off topic from game breaking tech to another thread of custom vs canon (or variants), it comes down to what you said; don't be a jerk. 

I sadly played with too many jerks for awhile; the customs I played against were far, far, too outrageous in an era before TW infantry, where it wasn't necessary to play with anti-infantry weapons.   It's why I took a long hiatus.  Also why I still don't play with customs.  I don't mind variants; but the fear of jerks has permanently given me an anti-custom mindset. 

As for game-breaking tech; at the lowest end, oddly, I actually see MASC and/or superchargers as occasionally game-breaking.  People scoff, but the sheer amount of speed that can be gained when someone pumps that on (especially onto a custom) means that if they have the initiative at all, they will have a backstabber.  The penalties of possible failure means that really bad luck can still screw it up, however.  It's probably subjective experience bias; I think it's just that mostly, when I get to play with MASC mechs, I always win - and my opponents don't like to play me when I have one.  I desperately want to play with a Celerity... dunno if I will ever get a chance... :(

As has been discussed previously, for Aero: reflective armour.  There's almost no reason not to mount it.

Actually, if memory serves, a few of the naval grade weapons are inherently superior to others; however, I haven't played a naval battle in awhile, and can't recall which ones are.   

Mostly, however, I would say that the game has not been "broken" by tech - or any unintentional breaking got nerfed before I became aware of it. 

[TigerShark]

I don't understand why the Wolverine 6R is still considered anything but a rare variant, with the 6M being considered the standard, and the 6K a close variant.......

Because the -6R is common to all nations. The -6M is only manufactured by the Free Worlds League, presumably as their primary variant. The -6K is made in the Combine, and seems a bit less frequent that the -6M. But both nations still produce the classic -6R.

[Nahuris]

Because the -6R is common to all nations. The -6M is only manufactured by the Free Worlds League, presumably as their primary variant. The -6K is made in the Combine, and seems a bit less frequent that the -6M. But both nations still produce the classic -6R.

The last dozen battles I have played in have all had a Wolverine 6M -- fielded by Davion, Steiner, and even Comstar.... as well as mercs, and in random pick up games. For the BV cost, it's a VERY solid design, and doesn't have the weaknesses of the supposed standard version. And in the hundreds of games I have played over the years, the answer to the 6R being common to all nations was that since this is a canon variant, the factories can make to these specs.... or it's "captured".

This is where the complaint that customs break the game starts, in my opinion, to lose ground --- unless you force a faction only, specific year only,  game... then the variants, which are canon, become fair game. And, under those rules, you can have some very bad abuses, with nothing but published canon designs.  And, as the canon designs are made under the same rules that any variant is built from.... and also considering that this is the first time that the construction rules haven't been in the same book as the standard rules..... (and yes, I still have one of the white booklets with the unseen Shadowhawk on the front cover, and the construction rules, which haven't changed much, are in there).... then the issue is more that the abuses that are possible need to be understood.

As I have suggested before, every player needs to play a game where they automatically lose initiative to the other side.....  why? Because, even in the example above, the whole statement about MASC was compounded by the statement that if they win initiative, they have a back-stab. For that matter, almost every example of "game breaking" tech or other complaint I have seen here has been based on the effect of initiative. That makes me wonder if the initiative system is broken....... Why don't we roll a pair of die for each unit, and then move them, starting with the lowest number first? Or, by lance or pairs, in larger games?

For that matter, ask your fellow players, and most will tell you "if I win Initiative, I am doing this..... and if I lose, I am doing that.  This is decided before the die is even rolled, and before there is a chance to see what an opponent does, and react... which is what initiative is supposed to actually simulate. This is also routinely decided, regardless of objectives or other factors... unless you use very rigid objective or support rules.... such as forced withdrawal, or statements such as Side A cannot retreat unless......

In the end, I have yet to find any real game breaking tech..... not even customs can do it. If my opponent fields something with large numbers of IJJ.... I usually have either some area effect weapons.... or something fast enough to take away some of the advantage.... because I usually aim for a rounded force. A pair of Flatbed trucks with Mortars ( http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1131/flatbed-truck-mortar ) can almost always be squeezed onto a unit to provide some support for it. And if said player goes for the trucks, then use the trucks as bait to box him in, and pummel him when he goes for them.
Also, if he is jumping constantly, then he is either paying a +3 to hit, or using better pilots and gunners, or TC's and Pulse Laser.. all of which cost, and all of which  are available to you as well. If your opponent can use them, then so can you....... And no, you are NOT forced to use IJJ's to counter them.... I have done very well using ERPPC's and cover to force my opponent into close range..... along with LBX guns, or equal pulse lasers of my own.

I have lost games due to new stuff... and I have had to adapt my tactics on the fly to deal with things...... I've also played Word of Blake, and had my opponent take the ECM variant of every mech he fielded... along with ECM vehicles, and a Karnov flying around dropping portable ECM's to boot. So, yes, my force built along the standard C3i lines had issues.... and the next game, where I fielded Blake units, but deliberately chose ones that did NOT come with C3i, as I knew I wouldn't get to use it anyways,  provoked a complaint, as my opponent did the ECM swarm again, and left himself short on firepower...... By using standard canon variants, most being either 3025 designs, or 3050 - 3060 designs without streak missiles, or C3i...... I "broke" the game, per my opponent.

Every time I have seen the complaint of the game being "broken" it has been by one player with a specialized force, facing another player with a specialized force, at which point, it comes down to whether or not those specializations interact, or whether one of them was specifically a counter to the other..... If I field an entire force of fast units, and you choose nothing but 3/5 assaults with orders to chase me down and destroy my unit... expect me to get my unit off the field.
If I take a company with a total mech weight of 240 tons, and try to hold the line against even an average inner sphere force..... I will lose.  That's the nature of the game, and hardly anything that can be considered game breaking.

At the same time, I do consider it a courtesy if my opponent lets me know he is using some new tech ---- In a recent game, my opponent took Plasma Rifles to counter my light vehicles and battle armor.....  Did this make the game broken? No... but I had to do some quick re-thinking as my fast strike forces were suddenly in a position to be decimated..... So, I used them as the follow up hammer, and ensured that my heavy or bigger mechs were always a somewhat better target, and used them to draw that fire off...... in essence, I gave my opponent too many choices, and it allowed me to actually control the flow of the battle... and that's despite losing 2/3rds of the Initiative rolls.......

So, again, I have yet to find any "game breaking" tech or tactics --- I have found some that can be annoying.... but dealable ----- just adjust the tactics.

And to let you know how I dealt with my first taste of IJJ.... I pushed the player over towards the edge of the field, via relentless advance, pounded his buddies.... and used a spread formation, where every attempt at a back shot on one of my mechs put him in short range for potential back shots from my following lines......he finally went for it, and took a Gauss to the CT rear from the next mech that was 5 hexes away.....

Nahuris

[TigerShark]

Well, let's start from the place that we disagree on how we both arrange games. I wouldn't have a -6M Wolverine in a Davion formation, since they're uncommon to that state. (Assuming, again, that we're talking mid-to-late Succession Wars.) You can play with what you like at the table, of course. I just enjoy a canon representation of forces.

[Nahuris]

The difference is, I like the 6R --- a great deal, actually.
I am rather fond of autocannons.... and light mechs, with a personal love of the Stinger, since it was the first mech I ever played.

Second, I don't care whether the game is customs, or canon only.... most of my customs are rarely better than canon designs. I am known for putting an LB5X on my later Clints, or on my Blades .... or my Marauder with 3 large lasers, in place of the PPC's and AC..... while leaving single heat sinks.
I also field Jagermechs, Riflemen, and Stingers and Wasps, when appropriate. There is a reason that my forces include 5 Stingers, 5 Locusts, 3 Wasps, a Pair of Commandos, a pair of Mercury's and various other light designs...... I've even been known to field both of my stock Fireballs.... and  gladly pay the BV to have them.

The references to the Woverine 6M have been the experience of my opposition, which for a period of 7 years, included weekly games with an average of 6 - 10 players per week....,The point is that it has been my experience, playing in hundreds of games over 7 different states, along with a very high number of games while in the military, that "canon only" just means that a lot of players search until they find the canon variant they  would have created as a custom.... and field that...... as that has been what I have faced many times on the battlefield.

At that point, how is declaring a game "canon only" valid .... as all that means is that the player uses someone else's custom design, that just happened to be put in print. And since designs like the Hellstar have become canon...... for that matter, we can even go back to the reprinted 3025 TRO, and look at the Flashman..... how does it matter what is custom, when there are thousand of canon variants that players can take?

As I said, all canon only means is that the player goes to Sarna.net, and goes over each variant listed, until they find what they would have made anyways.

In the end, going by canon only is going to expose you to every game tech that there is... unless you either restrict your players to playing over and over again in one era.... reliving the same battles over and over..... or they get bored, and start looking for other games to play.
I know this, because I used to ref games in the 3025 era, and was a strong proponent of the canon only style of play..... and finding out that the players cancelled out of your advertised game, so that they could go to one of the player's house, just to try out some new tech is rather sobering. After several months of just being left out of games, because my players were tired of 4th SW -- I was finally invited to join a new group --- and found myself smack dab in the middle of the Clan Invasion --- or as I put it, the Clone Wars Knock Off Travesty..... as I was also a Star Wars fan, and had read that part of the storyline .... and that's how I decided to envision trueborn clan warriors..... and then of course, there were all the "broken" clan weapons..... and munchkin mechs, like the Nova....etc.

The thing is, I learned how to play, how to deal, and most importantly... how to accept that other's have their own playstyle. And while some items may seem to be extremely powerful..... the Tsemp comes to mind ....... in the end, I am sure that tactics will arise to deal with it........

Nahuris

[YingJanshi]

Hm....I find it enlightening that out of the six pages of this thread, no one has said "Oh wow, this tech was an automatic win button. I could never have won without it. It must be horribly broken".

When it comes to tech you consider broken, there are only two options available to you. 1) try to adapt and find ways to combat it's effectiveness or 2) ban it from your table.

[monbvol]

For me probably the most useful piece of tech that I've ever used that helps ensure victory more often then not has to be the lowly LRM.

For actual units?  Probably PBIs using hidden unit rules.  That is probably the most evil unit in the game.

[Alexander Knight]

For actual units?  Probably PBIs using hidden unit rules.  That is probably the most evil unit in the game.

Your friendly neighborhood Tau Wraiths wave at you....but you can't see them.  ;)

[Arkansas Warrior]

Hm....I find it enlightening that out of the six pages of this thread, no one has said "Oh wow, this tech was an automatic win button. I could never have won without it. It must be horribly broken".

When it comes to tech you consider broken, there are only two options available to you. 1) try to adapt and find ways to combat it's effectiveness or 2) ban it from your table.

If all you need to do is kill all the enemies, nukes are "automatic win buttons".  Or so this Regulan buddy of mine told me, he had this weird gleam in his eye when he said it...

[monbvol]

Your friendly neighborhood Tau Wraiths wave at you....but you can't see them.  ;)

The only reason they aren't more evil is because of era/tech restrictions.

[SCC]

The only reason they aren't more evil is because of era/tech restrictions.

And what would make them nastier?

[Alexander Knight]

And what would make them nastier?

quick and dirty answer...Mauser IICs.  That's without thinking about it.

[StCptMara]

quick and dirty answer...Mauser IICs.  That's without thinking about it.

And Clan Support Lasers, on the TSM equiped squads, for their support weapon, which means
that they can have 3 per squad, and each is carried by 1 man. Combine that with Clan Armor
kit, so they take half damage(since you can't give them dermal plating according to one mention
of Herb's errata a while back..) I had a 30 man squad that started at, IIRC, 36 damage and the
Support Laser range..

[Alexander Knight]

Well yeah, but the Zombies aren't the hidden unit joke :)

[TigerShark]

quick and dirty answer...Mauser IICs.  That's without thinking about it.

That weapon is NOT well-thought out. Even in Clan warfare, it's tough to justify its existence.