Interstellar Operations Beta Feedback

[Louie N]

Sorry.

"SBF or ACS rules"

What are these rules and where are they found?

[monbvol]

This is as designed. The ISW Campaign rules are not designed for "Beer and Pretzel" play. They are designed for players wishing to run highly detailed campaigns. No amount of simplification will do away with the need for some fairly aggressive "paperwork" requirements. Our goal was to make the system more playable and more comprehensive than the original ISIF rules. The ISIF rules were more a loose template that someone could put a game together with a lot of work. We are hoping ISW will allow a large campaign to be played without the players having to make up a fair chunk of the rules to do so.

So while we are absolutely looking for feedback on the ISW rules, "less paperwork" is not on our list. Players wanting less paperwork are encouraged to just use the War Chest system with the SBF or ACS rules.
 
Thanks,
Joel BC
ISW Developer

I am hoping to delve into this particular ruleset much deeper as it is the one that interests me the most.  It just concerns me that with my initial looks into it so far that it will not be playable without significant computerized aid.  That said though I feel I need to repeat that I do need to look at it deeper before I can make any finalized recommendations.

[Welshman]

Sorry.

"SBF or ACS rules"

What are these rules and where are they found?

Strategic BattleForce- One game piece equals one company of units, one hex is 500 meters, one turn is 3 minutes

Abstract Combat System- One game piece equals one battalion of units, one hex is 750km, one turn is 3.5 days.

Both are new combat systems in IO.

[Welshman]

I am hoping to delve into this particular ruleset much deeper as it is the one that interests me the most.  It just concerns me that with my initial looks into it so far that it will not be playable without significant computerized aid.  That said though I feel I need to repeat that I do need to look at it deeper before I can make any finalized recommendations.

We are in the process of designing an automated "Orders Spreadsheet" that will plan to offer for free download. It should aid heavily with the tracking of a players forces.

Absolutely would love to hear what game aids you think will be required. That is certainly in the scope of what we are looking at.

[Atlas3060]

For the Inner Sphere at War, I didn't see any values for what would consist as a garrison force.
I'm unsure if that was a oversight or if intended as such; considering how we have descriptions in the Objectives products a while back.

[ScannerError]

Viral Jammers seem insanely overpowered at the moment.  17 hex radius, and opponent's electronics (of the appropriate type) are shut down permanently if they fail a 9+ check if they're inside that range.  In particular, the permanent jamming and high target number make it so that generally the "burning out" of the viral jammer is a positive, instead of the negative presented in the fluff blurb.  All you need to do is strap one of these sub-300 BV monsters on a small fusion hovercraft, shove it at the enemy, and all of their electronics (probably costing far more than this disposable hovercraft) are going to be down for the entire game.  I would strongly suggest reducing the check target number by a few points and allowing the pilots of the effected mechs to try and clear their electronics in the same way one would unjam a RAC (Having to be limited to walking speed and unable to shoot would prevent it being used easily mid-combat, but would give some options against an early viral rush).   Otherwise, this thing has rendered C3 even more impossible to use and overpriced than it is already. 

Also, the rules do not clarify if the check is made on first exposure, or for every turn inside the radius and in LoS.  They also do not clarify when in the turn the check is made, which makes it difficult to figure out when the LoS determination is made. (Is it after the unit with the VJ's move?  At the end of movement?  The End Phase of the turn?)

[monbvol]

We are in the process of designing an automated "Orders Spreadsheet" that will plan to offer for free download. It should aid heavily with the tracking of a players forces.

Absolutely would love to hear what game aids you think will be required. That is certainly in the scope of what we are looking at.

I've created such spreadsheets for the Fan Councils that used to run on these boards in the past so I'll be more than happy to take a look at what you put together and give feed back on that and might create my own anyway once I get the rules a bit more digested.  I'm nutzoid like that and just insane enough to offer my help in getting something like that created in the first place.

Some initial thoughts on force creation and economics since I'm reading those sections at the moment.  If there are limitations on how many new formations you can create in a turn I'm not finding anything besides RP costs.  Since this is going to be complex I might suggest expanding on limiting to number of factories and on top of that perhaps making base costs a bit higher so that it would not be so easy for a faction to suddenly produce a bunch of new units.  I'll need to do some math to see how much the current setup could be exploited.  Likewise I might suggest it using Factory output to upgrade a world with it taking 4 Factories to create a new Factory(1 to be explicit) and perhaps making it a bit clearer in the wording if the RP output for being a Regional Capital stacks with the RP output of being a Minor Industrial World and thus if that makes say New Sytris(if I am extrapolating correctly a Regional Capital that is also a Major Industrial World) more valuable to have than St. Ives(A Reginal Capital that is only a Minor Industrial World).

[Welshman]

Factories are limited in the amount of RP they can generate in a single turn. And you have to decide between military equipment, supplies and repair parts when you do manufacture.

[Peacemaker]

Interstellar Operations covers less than half of the different types of R.I.S.C. equipment WizKids put out. Is Catalyst planning on making BattleTech stats for all of them or just the ones we've seen in IO? It makes sense to me that you guys might not want to invent twenty new pieces of bizarre, rare and/or overpowered equipment that would probably see little use by players. At the same time, I can see Catalyst wanting to flesh out all that R.I.S.C. equipment for the same reason you guys have fleshed out almost all the other old Dark Age stuff. For that matter, is IO even meant to be the definitive guide to R.I.S.C. equipment? Some official clarification would be nice. Thanks!

List of all the R.I.S.C. cards WizKids released:
http://www.warrenborn.com/Search.php?ID=r.i.s.c.

[CampaignAnon]

Several things come up with my first read through of the book. (Still going through SBF and Inner Sphere in Flames/At War): For one, the tables for the Alternate Era Weapons and Equipment are smack dab in the middle of the book, contrary to how CGL has previously established such material. Not a huge deal breaker, but very awkward. Secondly, as part of the AEW&E, the book has the WoB Super Jump, but not the Interconnectedness Unlimited Super Jump. Oversight, or is the IU Drive merely a one off deal that won't be covered? Even so, I'd prefer to have the IU drive as an option outside of an ISP book.

Next: LAMs. Holy bejeezus, figure out what you want to do. I can understand not giving AirMechs obscene TMMs, and I applaud it. But you're going too far the other way with these nerfs. I'd prefer the base mod be +2, with the AOO modifier added on to that, to make the whole thing competitive but not insanely overmatched. Next is the TH mods that you get in AirMech mode. +3 for Cruise and +4 for flank are, IMO, far too much. +2/+3 would be fine if you wanted to make it difficult for 4/5 pilots to actually hit anything, but good friggin luck with a +4 TH as a regular pilot before movement mods. +1/+2 is probably on the kinder end, but might be a little too nice to LAMs.

RISC Gear: Wot. Most of it is either okay (The ECS and the Super Cooled Myomer), is bad (Hyper Lasers, Laser Pulse Modules), with the Repeating TSEMP being an atrociously bad outlier, APDS being a solid piece, and the Viral Jammer. More on that one by its lonesome. But overall, these feel like designs that left the drawing board too early. Nothing over the top, just merely meh.

Viral Jammer: Holy shit guys come on. The VJ may actually be the most broken piece of gear I've actually ever used. It almost makes LAMs in their prime see slightly balanced. Yes you have to choose what type of Jamming you're putting out, but for 19 points more than a Clan LPL, I can slaughter electronics. The 17 hex radius is nothing to sneeze at either. The weight of 2.5 tons means I can take old C3i mechs, or even GECM mechs with a spare medium laser. And 12 heat is literally nothing. I'd also recommend a PSR to reactivate the affected equipment, otherwise I could just make a pair of 600 BV 12/18 hovers to scoot in and jam the living hell out of c3 and stealth systems for an entire game for less than the price of a modern heavy mech.

[bobthecoward]

pg 110. first paragraph of "bombs and bomb bays"

Line is "LAMS may not may not carry"

Should read "LAMS may not carry"

[ScrapYardArmory]

Page 361.

"All battles can be resolved either using the Advanced Combat System or one of the detailed combat systems (TW, AS, BF, or SBF)."

Did you mean...

"All battles can be resolved either using the Abstract Combat System or one of the detailed combat systems (TW, AS, BF, or SBF)."

[ScrapYardArmory]

Page 362

"If the factor suffered 11 percent–25 percent damage, its output is reduced to 1 RP for the next 2 Game Turns. "

Did you mean..

"If the factory suffered 11 percent–25 percent damage, its output is reduced to 1 RP for the next 2 Game Turns. "

[Nightgaun7]

Supercooled Myomer needs to be more super
ECS may not do enough to be used over RHS
Viral Jammer utterly broken, nerf now or we riot

[Welshman]

Holy shit guys come on.

While we appreciate all feedback, delivery of feedback will go a long way to how much we give credence to any particular feedback. As the saying goes, you'll get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Thank you,
Joel BC
Catalyst

[ScrapYardArmory]

Page 365, missing space between sentences.

"Combat Units at the Abstract Combat System level.If converting Fatigue to the ACS level,"

Should be

"Combat Units at the Abstract Combat System level. If converting Fatigue to the ACS level,"

[CampaignAnon]

While we appreciate all feedback, delivery of feedback will go a long way to how much we give credence to any particular feedback. As the saying goes, you'll get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Thank you,
Joel BC
Catalyst

Alright, "Holy cow." The rules are so broken I'm literally stunned.

[ScrapYardArmory]

Page 365.  A clarification I think. (I've corrected the copy error that was already pointed on on the first page of comments by another user.)

"A Combat Command may repair up to 10 percent its total Armor value each Turn, without impacting the Command’s experience rating. See Experience (see p. 367) for the effect of repairs over 25 percent on the experience rating of the force."

Should this be...

"A Combat Command may repair up to 25 percent its total Armor value each Turn, without impacting the Command’s experience rating. See Experience (see p. 367) for the effect of repairs over 25 percent on the experience rating of the force."

So 25% right?

[ScrapYardArmory]

Another clarification I think.

Page 365 talks about Surrender.  A unit may be forced to surrender if facing overwhelming force.

Also, on page 367 in the FORCE EXPERIENCE TABLE, it lists a surrender level for each experience.

From my reading are there two ways a unit may be forced to surrender?  Overwhelming opposition and unit damage?  If so, it may be more clear to list both ways in the Surrender section on page 365.

[ColBosch]

Land-Air BattleMechs, p. 105

Problem: Under the Extinct date, the current text gives 2901 as the extinction date for Bimodal 'Mechs in the Inner Sphere, and 2801 as the extinction date for the same item in the Clans. The problem is that, currently, the only Bimodal LAM project was cancelled in 2688.

Suggested fix: Change both these dates to 2688.

Bimodal LAMs, p. 106

Problem: Tech Base (Ratings) gives a value of E/EEFX. As noted above, in the IO text, and on TR3085 p. 290, only one Bimodal LAM was created. TR3085 also clarifies that only 23 of two different variants of that 'Mech were produced, and that most of the twenty SHD-X2s were just demonstrators. The project was scrapped in 2688, so the only production Bimodal LAM model was theoretically available but very uncommon for a short period in the Star League era, but should be extremely rare afterwards, and seems to be completely gone by the Clan Invasion.

Suggested fix: Change Rating to E/EFXX.

[monbvol]

Factories are limited in the amount of RP they can generate in a single turn. And you have to decide between military equipment, supplies and repair parts when you do manufacture.

Okay I'm finding more stuff that I was being a bit blind as a bat about not seeing for what constitutes a Minor, Major, and Hyper  Industrialized World so that's good.

I would still suggest some clearer language that the modifiers are supposed to stack for Industrial level(Minor/Major/Hyper) and Capital type(Regional/National) as I could only really make that out due to an example text entry for Tharkad on page 348.

Though I'll admit I'm still having trouble finding where it talks about what can and can't be done with Factories themselves.  I'm prepared to accept that I'm just skimming a little too much trying to find something specific in a sea of text but that there isn't a clear bolded bullet point/text entry on Factories in the Inner Sphere at War section to grab someone's attention to explain their uses and limitations does make me think either that something didn't get bolded that should have to draw attention or some text didn't get into the beta PDF.

[bobthecoward]

Strategic battleforce contains no rules for zellbrigen. I think it should, and here is some ideas.

1) If two formations fight ritually, Units are paired off and attack and damage rolls are made against that pair.

2) If one formation is following zellbrigen, and one is not. The zellbrigen formation has a bonus to their attacking apply damage tactics check, the other formation has a bonus to their attacking apply damage tactics check.

3) If both follow zellbrigen, and one side declares they are breaking it this turn, the cheater resolves a small advantage, but the other formation should be able to break zell also (because turns are 3 minutes).

[Nerroth]

I had a question/comment/note about the ProtoMech listing for the post-Reaving Clans on page 30:

ProtoMechs, tainted by their widespread use during the Wars of Reaving, all but vanished among the Homeworld Clans by the end of the thirty-first century.

This seems somewhat at odds with the material presented in WoR, the Supplemental, and ISP3. The former two indicate that at least two of the Society ProtoMech models were being considered, or even partially adopted, by 3090 among three of the four surviving Homeworld Clans - the Coyotes being an exception, due to a self-imposed ban on the technology (stemming from their entanglement with the Society during the rebellion). While the Imperio seems to have retained the use of ProtoMechs, at least as a means of impressing the Scorpions' presence upon their Castilian and Umayyad civilians.

Or is this reference in IO a hint at that may have been going on out there post-3090?

(From a game perspective, it would be unfortunate if the number of ProtoMech-operating factions was cut down even further. They may not be the most popular of unit type, but they still provide "something different" for those factions which maintain their use.)

-----

Also, would it be possible to include a sample Interstellar Map for use with The Inner Sphere In Flames At War - perhaps of the Inner Sphere c. 3025 - or is that the kind of item that would have to wait for any era-specific expansions to be offered at a later point in time?

And would it be possible to add the Marian Hegemony as a sample 3025 Periphery force in TIFIFAW, alongside the Canopians, Outworlders, and Taurians? (Perhaps a training scenario of sorts could allow for a clash between the MAF and MHAF in the space between the two Periphery powers, though I'm not sure how well the current IO material might account for the Marian Legions' unique force organization structure.)

[monbvol]

For Inner Sphere at War, the more I dig into it the more I am starting to remember more and more of my conclusions about the Fan Councils that we've tried running on these forums in the past and honestly that is not a good thing.

Like for instance I actually did kind of block out the memories of how it became my responsibility to update ownership changes for planets, also double checking valid deployment of units, and how my skills with spreadsheets just did not present a very easy way to push said changes without having to be e-mailed everyone's sheet every week and sending back out an updated version.  And how it was such a major time hog to even deal with all those units and planets, even for the individual players, and that was after I put in some major effort to automate as much as I could.

I know my capabilities with spreadsheets are not absolute but I do know enough to pull off some decent tricks for automation and to say without some easy way to push information to the player's spreadsheets by the GM and in return collect updated information from said spreadsheets, GM burnout is going to be a huge factor too.

And that makes a part of me want to say if it is that complex that each player has to have some capability with a spreadsheet program and a laptop/computer then maybe too much is being asked.  Which was my final conclusion about the Fan Councils but re-wording it for Inner Sphere at War because I think I may already be at that point:  That something of the scale of Inner Sphere at War may not be possible to do without getting Microsoft on board to get a sufficient level of detail for people to enjoy but still have it play fast enough to not have people burn out or get bogged down.

[RedDevilCG]

Page 356

"There are 3,500 PV Combat Commands are on a planet"

should probably be

"There are 3, 500 PV Combat Commands are on a planet"

The extra space makes a big difference I think.

Perhaps it should read:
"There are three 500 PV Combat Commands are on a planet."

I don't think the second "are" is grammatically correct.

[Joe]

   empty

[pheonixstorm]

@Joe
You might want to break that text block up so that is easier for people to read and follow.  ;)

[Welshman]

Page 365.  A clarification I think. (I've corrected the copy error that was already pointed on on the first page of comments by another user.)

"A Combat Command may repair up to 10 percent its total Armor value each Turn, without impacting the Command’s experience rating. See Experience (see p. 367) for the effect of repairs over 25 percent on the experience rating of the force."

Should this be...

"A Combat Command may repair up to 25 percent its total Armor value each Turn, without impacting the Command’s experience rating. See Experience (see p. 367) for the effect of repairs over 25 percent on the experience rating of the force."

So 25% right?

10%- You can't repair a lot without impacting experience.

Perhaps it should read:
"There are three 500 PV Combat Commands are on a planet."

I don't think the second "are" is grammatically correct.

Correct

Another clarification I think.

Page 365 talks about Surrender.  A unit may be forced to surrender if facing overwhelming force.

Also, on page 367 in the FORCE EXPERIENCE TABLE, it lists a surrender level for each experience.

From my reading are there two ways a unit may be forced to surrender?  Overwhelming opposition and unit damage?  If so, it may be more clear to list both ways in the Surrender section on page 365.

Yes, thanks I'll look at a clarification.

[Welshman]

Land-Air BattleMechs, p. 105

Problem: Under the Extinct date, the current text gives 2901 as the extinction date for Bimodal 'Mechs in the Inner Sphere, and 2801 as the extinction date for the same item in the Clans. The problem is that, currently, the only Bimodal LAM project was cancelled in 2688.

Suggested fix: Change both these dates to 2688.

Bimodal LAMs, p. 106

Problem: Tech Base (Ratings) gives a value of E/EEFX. As noted above, in the IO text, and on TR3085 p. 290, only one Bimodal LAM was created. TR3085 also clarifies that only 23 of two different variants of that 'Mech were produced, and that most of the twenty SHD-X2s were just demonstrators. The project was scrapped in 2688, so the only production Bimodal LAM model was theoretically available but very uncommon for a short period in the Star League era, but should be extremely rare afterwards, and seems to be completely gone by the Clan Invasion.

Suggested fix: Change Rating to E/EFXX.

These are game rules for when things could happen. They are not directly tracked to when things did happen in history. While the only canon BiModel Mech program was cancelled in 2688, the ability to make them still existed. This allows players playing in their own alternate timelines to make their own customs while still being in the technology windows of the main timeline.

[Welshman]

Strategic battleforce contains no rules for zellbrigen. I think it should, and here is some ideas.

1) If two formations fight ritually, Units are paired off and attack and damage rolls are made against that pair.

2) If one formation is following zellbrigen, and one is not. The zellbrigen formation has a bonus to their attacking apply damage tactics check, the other formation has a bonus to their attacking apply damage tactics check.

3) If both follow zellbrigen, and one side declares they are breaking it this turn, the cheater resolves a small advantage, but the other formation should be able to break zell also (because turns are 3 minutes).

Zellbrigen is a campaign level rule. Strategic BattleForce is primarily a combat system. Rules for Zellbrigen in SBF and ACS level warfare will likely be in a future ISW expansion to cover the play of the Clans. Until then, whatever rules work for your game table apply.