Author Topic: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!  (Read 251781 times)

glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #870 on: 22 November 2017, 12:34:03 »
Original Sea Pyramid.. sadly no longer with us.


Wrangler

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #871 on: 22 November 2017, 13:49:34 »
here you go, a REAL sea pyramid (and a swan-class cruiser  ;D ):
Where that from? (not the swan...)
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #872 on: 23 November 2017, 14:13:39 »
Could not resist either! :D



Nah. Remember, the Zumwalt is commanded by Captain James A Kirk...well, at least until this past December:

http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg1000/Pages/USS-Zumwalt-Holds-Change-of-Command.aspx#.WhcdodtFy3s
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #873 on: 23 November 2017, 15:01:44 »
Gotta cycle him shoreside for a while before his next command commissions in 2021.
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ColBosch

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #874 on: 23 November 2017, 17:04:10 »
Original Sea Pyramid.. sadly no longer with us.



Was she finally broken up? Last I heard, the Navy literally could not give her away.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #875 on: 23 November 2017, 19:21:06 »
4 years ago.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2185831/Declassified-170million-Cold-War-Stealth-boat-snapped-2-5million-condition-scrap-parts.html

No one wanted it.. Mainly because the navy insisted the barge go with it, and had a ton of other mandatory limits on the display agreements.

Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #876 on: 24 November 2017, 02:29:44 »
4 years ago.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2185831/Declassified-170million-Cold-War-Stealth-boat-snapped-2-5million-condition-scrap-parts.html

No one wanted it.. Mainly because the navy insisted the barge go with it, and had a ton of other mandatory limits on the display agreements.

Hate to have to say this, but the Navy wouldn't have had a say. That sort of decision is made by the DoD, not by the services.

It is a shame, but she was only really meant to be an experimental platform, and her progeny have spread across the planet, what more could a girl ask for?

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #877 on: 24 November 2017, 15:15:47 »
Found something I meant to post quite some time back, when we were discussing missile boats and corvettes

Egyptian Ambassador III or Ezzat class: 600 tons, 76mm gun, 8 Harpoon SSMs, Phalanx CIWS, RAM SAMs



Greek Roussen class: 580 tons, 76mm gun, 8 MM.40 Exocet SSMs, 2 30mm guns just aft of the mast, RAM SAMs


kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #878 on: 24 November 2017, 15:43:18 »
Well... if we're a bit unfair... South Africa calls their units of the below corvettes too.

Meko A200AN for Algeria, built in Germany. Being towed through the canal between Baltic and North Sea here.



127mm L64 main gun, two 30mm Seahawk A2 (above VLS and on hangar for 360-degree coverage), 16 Rbs15 Mk3 SSM, 32-cell VLS for Umkhonto IR SAM, two triple 324mm ASW torpedo tubes with MU90, four 32-cell TKWA MASS decoy launchers and a hangar for a Super Lynx.

On a ship the size of a LCS, less than twice the above Roussen in deckspace.

And her little sister, the German K130 class corvette (a Meko A100) Braunschweig in the same canal:



76mm main gun, two 27mm MLG27, 4 Rbs15 Mk3 SSM, 2 21-cell RAM SAM, two 32-cell TKWA MASS decoy launchers, mine racks for 34 sea mines and a hangar for two VTOL UAVs (which haven't been bought yet). In trials one of them has also added a 20 kW HEL laser module to one of the MLG27.

40% bigger than a Roussen.
« Last Edit: 24 November 2017, 15:55:06 by kato »

I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #879 on: 24 November 2017, 16:04:02 »
Those are some angry little boats. Small boats with a huge punch.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #880 on: 24 November 2017, 16:10:12 »
Well... if we're a bit unfair... South Africa calls their units of the below corvettes too.

Meko A200AN for Algeria, built in Germany. Being towed through the canal between Baltic and North Sea here.



127mm L64 main gun, two 30mm Seahawk A2 (above VLS and on hangar for 360-degree coverage), 16 Rbs15 Mk3 SSM, 32-cell VLS for Umkhonto IR SAM, two triple 324mm ASW torpedo tubes with MU90, four 32-cell TKWA MASS decoy launchers and a hangar for a Super Lynx.

On a ship the size of a LCS, less than twice the above Roussen in deckspace.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #881 on: 24 November 2017, 16:59:01 »
Murphy's Dice on a Stick. Is there any bad news? A little red button underneath the gun or something?
They've been shopping around a bit in the last five years on top of that - and are probably one of the most diverse navies around:
  • two German Meko A200AN corvettes/frigates (+2 options)
  • three Chinese C28A corvettes/frigates (+ 3 options)
  • two Russian Pr20832 Tigr corvettes (+4 options)
  • two Russian Pr636M modernized Kilo submarines (adding to three older Kilos)
  • a rebuild of the Italian San Giorgio small LPD (+1 option)
  • three (used) Italian Lerici minehunters
The C28A carry a 76mm, two 30mm Type 730 CIWS, eight C-802 SSM, one 8-cell HQ-7 SAM, two triple 324mm ASW torpedo tubes and a hangar for a Super Lynx. The armament of the Pr20382 to my knowledge has never been announced (first unit supposed to be delivered this year still) but will be broadly in line with the C28A by capability and numbers; they might be carrying 16 SSM too though.
Both classes are also called corvettes, but are equally the size of a LCS - or the above Meko A200AN.

The last five-year acquisition round before that was for 21 (!) French-built 32m patrol boats... at least only carrying a single 30mm.

Here's their 8,800-ton Italian LPD bought in 2014:



Can't go without overblown armament either of course - and of course entirely different weapon systems again.

76mm main gun, two 25mm, 16-cell VLS - behind island - for Aster 15 or Aster 30 (third 8-cell launcher not fitted; they carry Aster 15), two 20-cell SCLAR-H decoy launchers, hangar and flight deck for three AW101 or five Super Lynx. Three LCM, three LCVP and two speedboats carried, capacity is for 440 troops plus 15 tanks or 36 armoured vehicles. Uh, and for good measure the radar on these is the same as on the Italian Horizon AAW destroyers.
« Last Edit: 24 November 2017, 17:16:24 by kato »

ColBosch

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #882 on: 24 November 2017, 17:21:25 »
*raises an eyebrow* That's a pretty serious little navy Algeria is putting together. Risky, given the economic issues that country is facing.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #883 on: 24 November 2017, 17:43:57 »
It's not just the Navy, the rest of their military is getting similar upgrades. 80 modern Flankers, multiple battalions of S-300PMU2, scores of tanks, IFVs and APCs...

Beyond that, what's curious is mostly the mix. Just the missiles for those ships are sourced from China, Russia, Sweden, South Africa, France. And all the 30mm guns on the ships are pretty much in three different "30mm" calibers. They even maintain a limited own shipbuilding capacity at OMCN/CNE at Mers el Kebir despite all that shopping around, every decade or so ordering another missile corvette of the locally designed and built Djebel Chenoua class.

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #884 on: 24 November 2017, 17:47:22 »
I think thats the most RBS missiles any 1 ship carries, but... Dear god, Swedish, European, Chinese, Russian AND South African missiles in one navy! Classic emerging 3rd-world military symptom; buy whats cheap and figure out who to run with later.

The LPD reminds me of the old Invincibles. The 76mm gun is incredibly pointless though, unless they really think she'll pull double duty as a patrol ship...!

Reportedly they will mount 8 P-800 Oniks (SS-N-26 Strobile) on the Tigrs... what the Slavas used to carry in those big side tubes!

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #885 on: 25 November 2017, 05:14:52 »
The LPD reminds me of the old Invincibles. The 76mm gun is incredibly pointless though, unless they really think she'll pull double duty as a patrol ship...!
The Italian San Giorgios originally had the 76mm guns too until about 1999; on the first two units (San Giorgio and San Marco) they were later removed with the through deck expanded forward to the bow and those LCVP davits replaced with a sponson extending the flight deck sidewards, overall doubling the number of helicopter landing spots.

The third unit (San Giusto) did not go through this conversion and retains the 76mm; she's slightly larger, was ordered a few years later and is used mostly for training by the Italian Navy. Also won't be replaced by the two new LHDs that Italy is building. The new 20,000t LHDs will fit two 76mm and three 25mm btw; Italy uses the 76mm for CIWS with guided DART ammunition.

The Algerian LPD is pretty much an off-the-shelf buy. Fincantieri offers them like that as "Enhanced San Giusto" in their portfolio. They have an extra hull section behind the superstructure (which houses the VLS and has room for an extra speedboat), a smaller crew (152 vs 180) and different engines with one knot less top speed and less range (7000nm at 15kn vs 7500nm at 16kn).

Modified San Giorgio, looking rather more like a miniature Invincible:

By comparison though the San Giorgios are only frigate-sized at 133m - vs Invincible's 209m overall length.

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #886 on: 25 November 2017, 06:59:40 »
Since we're talking about small ships with a lot of firepower.

How about this lovely 3,500 ton, nearly 70 meter long powerhouse I found.  Capable of firing the equivalent of 2 tons of metal if she lets fly at an opponent.



HMS Victory of course.



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Sharpnel

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #887 on: 25 November 2017, 07:36:37 »
IIRC, she wasn't the most powerful ship of her day, either.
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #888 on: 25 November 2017, 07:51:35 »
IIRC, she wasn't the most powerful ship of her day, either.

One of the but probably not the most, there was dozens of 100 - 104 gun ships around at the time in French, Spanish and Engliish.  The Santassima Trinidad was a unique 4 decker of 130 guns but she was reportedly a nightmare to manouvre and handled poorly, so the extra deck wasn't really worth it and its why the Spanish or no one else copied or repeated her.  But Victory was certinally one of the most powerful ships of her day, and at Trafalgar she was an old lady too, at 46 years of age she wasn't the most modern three decker the RN had.  But as the design had changed little she was perfectly fine in the line of Battle.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #889 on: 25 November 2017, 07:59:11 »
I wonder how they up kept wooden ships on high sea service for such a long time.
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #890 on: 25 November 2017, 08:09:30 »
I wonder how they up kept wooden ships on high sea service for such a long time.

Well wooden ships if properly constructed and made from the right wood and cared for last an absurdly long time.  And are remarkably tough.  An old French ship of the line that the RN had as a sail training ship was sunk in 1949 via explosive charges and then several gun shots when she refused to sink. The RN had a very large and intricate dockyard system for maintaining their wooden sailing ships and this is what helped keep them around so long.  Another old ship the first HMS Royal Soverign Ex Soverign of the Seas was over 50 years old and still a front line fighting ship when she was accidentally burned by a fire left on in the galleys.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #891 on: 25 November 2017, 08:55:51 »
Santassima Trinidad had more guns, so that first Broadside would of been scary but compared to the lack of training that the Spanish had over the British, the ship might of been a even match, with the lack of maneuverability and handling in the sea compared to the Victory.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #892 on: 25 November 2017, 09:00:15 »
Santassima Trinidad had more guns, so that first Broadside would of been scary but compared to the lack of training that the Spanish had over the British, the ship might of been a even match, with the lack of maneuverability and handling in the sea compared to the Victory.
For these ships of the line, it's not the first "volley" that decide it, it's the pounding you can lay on that decided it.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #893 on: 25 November 2017, 09:04:02 »
I wonder how they up kept wooden ships on high sea service for such a long time.
There's quite a number of sail training ships in the services of various navies around the world that are somewhere between 60 and 110 years old. The German Gorch Fock II - built in 1958, to 1933 plans - is currently being overhauled so she can serve past 2030 - and German cadets instead right now train on her sister Mircea, run by the Romanian Navy and built in 1938.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #894 on: 25 November 2017, 09:35:10 »
There's quite a number of sail training ships in the services of various navies around the world that are somewhere between 60 and 110 years old. The German Gorch Fock II - built in 1958, to 1933 plans - is currently being overhauled so she can serve past 2030 - and German cadets instead right now train on her sister Mircea, run by the Romanian Navy and built in 1938.

Aren't those Steel hull ships?  I was talking about wood hulls, which sometimes had copper bottoms on their keels keep them semi-safe.

Speaking of steel ships, the Japanese cruiser Izumi, whom started off in life as the Esmeralda in Chilean service. She unique noted being the first Protected Cruiser (all steel) of her time. 

The picture of her is from 1884 as the Esmeralda.

When she was first launched, she was sensation among navy circles, since she was also at 18 knots the fastest ship in the world.  She was armed with pair of 10 inch guns and half dozen 6 inch guns when she was launched.

She server in Chilean navy for 10 years before being sold off and renamed the Izumi.   While in service with Chile, they was used in interesting historical events.  She was part of effort try to protect Chile's assets in Panama City and was Occupying the city as part of the effort to prevent the United States from annexation Panama itself in 1885.

She was part of Chiliean Civil War in 1891, where she was part of the Congress's junta's forces. Her most noted actions during the conflict was when she used her guns to bombard President's Loyalist forces into submission in the last battle.

After 10 years of service, Japan purchased the ship from Chile as part of their efforts to replenish their fleet during the First Sino-Japanese War. By the time she had gotten to the Yokosuka Naval District, the war's biggest battles had already accrued.

She re-armed and somewhat downgraded gun-wise to pair of 6 inch guns, and 4.7 guns replacing her original secondary guns in the middecks. However, the Japanese navy added three 356 mm torpedo launchers and then little bit later even large 457mm white head torpedoes on deck. 

She didn't get to do alot during the Russo-Japanese War, where she was acting as auxiliary unit during the conflict.  She was mainly doing patrols, though she did exchange fire with a Russian cruiser while assigned to IJN's 3rd Fleet.   She was sadly decommissioned in 1907 and scrapped in 1912.

Her imperial crest was preserved and is displaced on the memorial battleship Mikasa in Yokosuka.

I actually visited the museum/memorial during my time in Japan.  I may have seen it, but don't recall. Sadly my pictures are likely lost.  :(  :-[
 
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #895 on: 25 November 2017, 09:38:39 »
Amusingly, the performance of age of sail ships measured by the gun rating system seemingly* parallels Battletech and Mech weights:

60-gun ships/60-ton Mechs - considered the worst of 2 worlds, too slow to fence with frigates and too weak to stand in the line

74-gun ships/75-ton Mechs - the best balance of speed and firepower

80s - again, slower than 74s and weaker than 90s

90s and 100s - the most powerful ships/Mechs of the day, but slow and unwieldy

>100 superheavy - far too heavy to be practical

*but of course in actual fact, the number of guns aboard differed from the official rating, and the build and lines of the ship influenced its sailing qualities, not the number of guns

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #896 on: 25 November 2017, 10:06:51 »
There is a theory that HMS Victory has survived so well because she was first ordered at a time when there was then a relatively long period of peace and so no rush in her construction so the wood was allowed to mature for longer than normal before construction.


I am not sure how much of HMS Victory today is original or whether there is a "ship of Theseus" situation here
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #897 on: 25 November 2017, 10:53:16 »
The Italian beauty the Amerigo Vespucci  was built in 1930

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #898 on: 25 November 2017, 11:19:37 »
The new 20,000t LHDs will fit two 76mm and three 25mm btw; Italy uses the 76mm for CIWS with guided DART ammunition.
...
By comparison though the San Giorgios are only frigate-sized at 133m - vs Invincible's 209m overall length.
Ah I forgot the 76mm's use as CIWS. How does it perform compared to other CIWS options?

It was the LPD's Asters and EMPAR that reminded me somewhat of the Invincibles' old Sea Darts.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #899 on: 25 November 2017, 12:43:40 »
Ah I forgot the 76mm's use as CIWS. How does it perform compared to other CIWS options?
Well, it's proximity-fused 3.5 kg HE warheads fired at 120 rpm and Mach 3.3 with good enough guidance that in testing they instead of knocking down targets with a cloud of fragments they scored direct hits at 5+ km...

It was the LPD's Asters and EMPAR that reminded me somewhat of the Invincibles' old Sea Darts.
The use of EMPAR is also somewhat unusual in that that's not in the standard Enhanced San Giusto package and in that it was already removed from Leonardo's portfolio years before the Algerian LPD - perhaps they still had a set sitting around that they wanted to get rid off. EMPAR has since about 2009 been replaced by Kronos Naval, a solid-state derivative (which the Algerian ship doesn't use - they've only sold it to Italy, the UAE and Peru). Technology-wise EMPAR is almost as old as the Invincibles ;)

Italy sticks Sylver A50 VLS on everything that isn't meant for only patrol.

 

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