Cherries & Lemons?

[Black_Knyght]

So taking some time to look over ALL the weapons and equipment available by the latest era of Battletech, I have to wonder just how many of these are Cherries and well worth using, and how many are Lemons and not worth the trouble?

What weapons & equipment do you think are great additions?

What weapons & equipment do you think missed the mark altogether?

[marauder648]

Well the obvious cherry is Clan pulse weapons.  To the point that they skirt cheese, and in my battles I quite pointedly say that you can't take more than X number of LPL's due to how bloody powerful they are.  If I could change them i'd reduce their range so they 'only' have the same ranges as standard IS lasers so they are not so devastating. 

Lemons - HVACs, Bombast lasers, Extended LRMs due to them coming out so damn late, if they had come out earlier they could probably carve a niche, but by the time they are out, Clan LRMs are on the market and are infinitely superior.  But of the worse, my vote goes for Bombasts, the + hit penalty at full charge is obscene.

Psuedo-Lemons - ER Pulse lasers, not bad, not great but not offering that many advantages that makes you go gimme!

[grimlock1]

I would be inclined to call IS medium and large pulse lasers lemons.  Both hit a bit harder and have that lovely -2 TH, but their ranges are so short that those modifiers end up canceling out your bonuses except in the last few hexes.

[marauder648]

Hmm I dunno, the problem is that when compared to Clan pulse lasers, the IS ones are laughably short ranged.  But compared to standard IS lasers its not THAT bad. 

[grimlock1]

Hmm I dunno, the problem is that when compared to Clan pulse lasers, the IS ones are laughably short ranged.  But compared to standard IS lasers its not THAT bad.

It's not the total range that irks me quite so much as how much the brackets shrink. Compare the range mods of a large pulse to a regular large.  The pulse mod helps you between 1-3 hexs and 6-7 hexes. Anywhere else in the envelope, it has the same mods as a regular large laser. If you compare to an ER large, the pulse mod only helps you from 1-3 hexes.

The story is basically the same for the medium pulse, except scaled down.

The shtick of pulse lasers is they have a built in targeting bonus and more damage. They pay for that in weight, heat and reduced range. I submit, that the reduction in range forces more of the engagement into the medium and long range brackets, thus negating their accuracy boost in 50% of the engagement envelope.

This makes them no better than well handled standar.....[face palm]

Did you ever write out an argument only to blow a hole  in it as you craft your cutting final remark?

If a skillfully used medium laser is better than a mediocre use of a medium pulse, then a skillfully applied pulse should be better than a well used standard.

And considering how often pulses go on jumpy backstabbers, floating at the sweet range shouldn't  be a huge problem.


I think I'll stop talking.

[SCC]

Extended LRMs due to them coming out so damn late, if they had come out earlier they could probably carve a niche, but by the time they are out, Clan LRMs are on the market and are infinitely superior.  But of the worse, my vote goes for Bombasts, the + hit penalty at full charge is obscene.

Your confusing Extended with Enhanced, Extended are the ones that can reach across two page to reach out and touch someone, Enhanced are the one's with reduced minimums.

Lemons: IS Pulse Lasers, PPC Capacitors in AS
Cherries: RISC Pulse Laser Modules, PPC Capacitors in TW

[Sharpnel]

Well the obvious cherry is Clan pulse weapons.  To the point that they skirt cheese, and in my battles I quite pointedly say that you can't take more than X number of LPL's due to how bloody powerful they are.  If I could change them i'd reduce their range so they 'only' have the same ranges as standard IS lasers so they are not so devastating. 

Lemons - HVACs, Bombast lasers, Extended LRMs due to them coming out so damn late, if they had come out earlier they could probably carve a niche, but by the time they are out, Clan LRMs are on the market and are infinitely superior.  But of the worse, my vote goes for Bombasts, the + hit penalty at full charge is obscene.

Psuedo-Lemons - ER Pulse lasers, not bad, not great but not offering that many advantages that makes you go gimme!

I concur with the above and would Variable Speed Pulse Lasers to the Lemon list.  The extra weight to mount these is not worth it This is one of the reasons the Wobblies lost as they relied on garbage like this. Another cherry for me is the Light PPC as it can give light 'Mechs that extra bit of range, which is a key factor for me as you don't have to sacrifice your lights by closing with the enemy.

[Daryk]

For me, Blazer Cannons and Rocket Launchers are the cherries.  They're things that should have been around from the beginning, and make perfect sense in a 3025 universe.

Lemon-wise, I'm going with everything Clan.  The transition to Star League tech was somewhat rough, but overall balanced.  Balance went out the window with Clan technology, in every way.

Format note: the bright yellow you chose for "Lemons" is almost unreadable under the default forum skin.  I recommend a darker shade.
EDIT: Thanks!  That's much easier on the eyes.

[Dies Irae]

It's not the total range that irks me quite so much as how much the brackets shrink. Compare the range mods of a large pulse to a regular large.  The pulse mod helps you between 1-3 hexs and 6-7 hexes. Anywhere else in the envelope, it has the same mods as a regular large laser. If you compare to an ER large, the pulse mod only helps you from 1-3 hexes.

The story is basically the same for the medium pulse, except scaled down.

The shtick of pulse lasers is they have a built in targeting bonus and more damage. They pay for that in weight, heat and reduced range. I submit, that the reduction in range forces more of the engagement into the medium and long range brackets, thus negating their accuracy boost in 50% of the engagement envelope.

This makes them no better than well handled standar.....[face palm]

Did you ever write out an argument only to blow a hole  in it as you craft your cutting final remark?

If a skillfully used medium laser is better than a mediocre use of a medium pulse, then a skillfully applied pulse should be better than a well used standard.

And considering how often pulses go on jumpy backstabbers, floating at the sweet range shouldn't  be a huge problem.


I think I'll stop talking.

I disagree if only because while a skillfully used Medium Pulse is nice and old, TWO skillfully used Medium Lasers is a lot more throw going downstream.

Inner Sphere Pulse Lasers irk me. Not enough to pitch a fit though, unlike obviously dud weapons like the Autocannon 5 series (which pretty much only has the HMG for competition for worst weapon in the game).

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Well the obvious cherry is Clan pulse weapons.  To the point that they skirt cheese, and in my battles I quite pointedly say that you can't take more than X number of LPL's due to how bloody powerful they are.  If I could change them i'd reduce their range so they 'only' have the same ranges as standard IS lasers so they are not so devastating. 

Lemon-wise, I'm going with everything Clan.  The transition to Star League tech was somewhat rough, but overall balanced.  Balance went out the window with Clan technology, in every way.

Oh, I see comrades here! Exactly my thoughts.

Clan ER PPC is also an obvious cherry. It punches way too powerful for its weight. If I could nerf it, I'd rather drop its damage to 12. Still a headcapper, but at least a bit less cheesy one.

On IS Pulse Lasers. They are not exactly lemons, at least MPL's. They are simply pigeonholed for knife-fighting ranges. IS LPL does seem underwhelming. With the introduction of the SN-PPC's it can be replaced with them without a loss of effectiveness.

[grimlock1]

On IS Pulse Lasers. They are not exactly lemons, at least MPL's. They are simply pigeonholed for knife-fighting ranges. IS LPL does seem underwhelming. With the introduction of the SN-PPC's it can be replaced with them without a loss of effectiveness.

Well, the small pulse is a PBI killer.

With the introduction of snubbie PPCs, the IS large pulse is basically obsolete. The only advantage is knife fighting range from 1-3 hexes. From 4 hexes up, the snubbies are equal or better than the large pulse.

[Daryk]

Well, the small pulse is a PBI killer.
*snip*

And one that doesn't explode, or automatically set fire to the city you're trying to defend or take intact.

[SCC]

And one that doesn't explode, or automatically set fire to the city you're trying to defend or take intact.

A-Pods and their decedents (More lemons) also fall into this category, as do Vehicular Grenade Launchers (Non-lemon), of course those are one shot weapons.

Now technically any weapon capable can also kill infantry and they don't explode OR set the city on fire, at least not directly in the last case.

[grimlock1]

A-Pods and their decedents (More lemons) also fall into this category, as do Vehicular Grenade Launchers (Non-lemon), of course those are one shot weapons.

I think Smoke and Chaff ammo might buy the VGL's off the lemon list. They are a way to bring some smoke rounds to the fight without dedicating an entire ton of missiles.  They do require a bit of planning and forethought but they can help defend an exposed position or cover an advance across open ground.  Yeah, they both kick in during the end phase, but it's an option, at least until chaff pods hit the market.

Chaff pods, are a real gem.  It is the only item I can think of that might save your butt after loosing initiative and getting flanked. Anything else like ECM, stealth, Blue Shield, etc are activated in the End Phase. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

Gold-plated Cherry: Clan tech LRMs; no minimum range and half-weight launchers?  They're as gorgeous as engine mounted double heat sinks.
That's Not Gold, That's Not Gold At All-plated lemon: Enhanced LRMs.  At least Extended LRMs have some serious range benefit; NRLMs shave three hexes off their minimums and that's it.  (Also, ExLRMs with C3 is funny and wrong)

[Col Toda]

Cherries anything used well with a well thought out tactical doctrine . Lemons MRMs before Apollo FCS , rocket launchers after the iOS comes out , Clan Heavy Lasers , Clan improved Heavy Lasers , Clan Plasma Cannons . Clan ATM smaller than 9 ,  MML smaller than 7  .  The jury is still out on the iATM  if like the ATM no indirect fire for long range than add it to the list .

[SD501st]

Since most other Cherries have already been picked and adressed, I'll add one that is debatable, but a Cherry in my eyes:

The Re-Engineered Large Laser since the rules changed to make the RE Lasers semi-pulse.
And it's the Large that stands out and imho takes a spot alongside the regular Large Laser and the Large XPulse Laser. Why? Take a good look at the stats. You get weapon that has the range of the Large Laser, with the damage of the Large Pulse/XPulse, and only a slightly worse heat balance/damage balance than the regular Large, the same as the Large Pulse, and a way better one than the Large XPulse.

Sure, it's one ton heavier, but if you wanted the same -1 to hit on a Large Laser, you'd need to add a 2 ton TarComp. The only real downside is the large size, but you get a bonus for it that gets ever more important with the proliferation of Reflective, Ferro-Lamelor and especially Hardened Armor.

If you have the crits free, the LREL is arguably a better choice than the LL and a much better choice than the very heat intensive LXPL.


By the way, it's easy to see what exactly is "OP" or "wrong" about the Clan LPL... take a look at the range bands of the three regular Clan Pulse Lasers:
SPL: 2/4/6 - 2 Hex steps
MPL: 4/8/12 - 4 Hex steps
LPL: 6/14(!!)/20 a 6 Hex step(as it should be) followed by an 8 Hex step and then another 6 Hex step. See?

Now, if we apply the band pattern of the other Clan Pulse Lasers to the CLPL, we get a 6/12/18 weapon that does 10 damage. In essence, an IS PPC without minimum range and with a -2 hit modifier. That looks much more acceptable, don't you think?

[grimlock1]

The Re-Engineered Large Laser since the rules changed to make the RE Lasers semi-pulse.

Where/when did that happen?  Did I fall asleep and miss another Jihad?

[NeonKnight]

Where/when did that happen?  Did I fall asleep and miss another Jihad?

From BattleMech manual (page 101)

RE-ENGINEERED (RE) LASER
“The laser so nice they engineered it twice.”
Game Rules: Attack rolls for re-engineered lasers apply a
–1 Target Number modifier. RE lasers also treat each armor circle
provided by hardened, ferro-lamellor, and laser-reflective armors
as 1 point of standard armor. Versus RE lasers, these armors provide
no special protective bonuses of any kind.
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Type: P

[Tai Dai Cultist]

There was also an errata prior to the BattleMech manual, but yeah it's out there now.  The -1 to hit was added in to make them actually worth using.

[CDAT]

I think that the Ultra AC is one more lemon. Or at least in ultra mode. I am a legendary gunner at perfect range not moving shooting an immobile unit so to hit with my first round I need 0+0+0-4 or -4 or better to hit, but on my second round I need an 8 or better to hit and if I roll a 2 my gun breaks for the duration (hundreds of years after they first designed it they still can not fix this major flaw).

[grimlock1]

I think that the Ultra AC is one more lemon. Or at least in ultra mode. I am a legendary gunner at perfect range not moving shooting an immobile unit so to hit with my first round I need 0+0+0-4 or -4 or better to hit, but on my second round I need an 8 or better to hit and if I roll a 2 my gun breaks for the duration (hundreds of years after they first designed it they still can not fix this major flaw).

Yeah, that 50/50 chance for the second shot always rankled me. Although if the odds of the hit are less than 42%, it may be beneficial  double tap. 
Say your odds of a hit are 35%, I'm ignoring dice right now, and just looking at the percentages.
So have a 35% chance to connect. Figure you'll have a similar 35% chance next turn. 

So the odds of shot A or B hitting are 70%.  (.35+.35=.7)
The odds of A and B hitting are only 12.25%. (.35 *.35=.1225)
But the odds of A hitting AND the ultra shot connecting are 14.7% (.35 * .42=.147)

Yeah, I'm more inclined to wait for a better shot.

I'm less hostile towards RAC's, more lead in the air and the ability to unjam, although they do suffer in range.

[Hominid Mk II]

The Enhanced ER PPC would have been a Cherry if it had stayed IS tech instead of being reinterpreted as Clan tech and had been made available to IS factions between the Jihad and the Dark Age.

[grimlock1]

How about the LRM-5 for a cherry?

With the exception of more heat, a quartet of LRM-5's is equal to or better than an LRM-20. 
For either IS or Clans, the LRM bank is lighter, and can survive a crit.
I did some simulations and found that the average damage of 4 LRM-5's was +/- 0.5 points, and this held over thousands of simulations. While I haven't ground it out, I expect the same will hold for replacing -15's and -10's with banks of 5's.

It should also work for SRM's as well.

[grimlock1]

I'm a bit surprised that TW wasn't able to resurrect NARC/iNARC from the Scrappy Heap.  A -1 on the missile attack role is nice but a NARCed unit can be the subject of Indirect LRM fire, without needing a spotter.

That said, as evil an idea as it sounds, the Nemesis pod seems like something that you could spend a career waiting for the chance to use.

[The_Livewire]

The Enhanced ER PPC would have been a Cherry if it had stayed IS tech instead of being reinterpreted as Clan tech and had been made available to IS factions between the Jihad and the Dark Age.

This .  I hate that errata

[grimlock1]

The Enhanced ER PPC would have been a Cherry if it had stayed IS tech instead of being reinterpreted as Clan tech and had been made available to IS factions between the Jihad and the Dark Age.

This .  I hate that errata

That would make the Heavy PPC seem like a real non-starter. 5 hexes longer reach, no minimums, 3 tons lighter, a crit smaller.  Sign me up!  It will cost you is 3 points of damage, you can still serve up the decappuccino from more than a mapsheet away.

[The_Livewire]

That would make the Heavy PPC seem like a real non-starter. 5 hexes longer reach, no minimums, 3 tons lighter, a crit smaller.  Sign me up!  It will cost you is 3 points of damage, you can still serve up the decappuccino from more than a mapsheet away.

Which is why, in the Jihad and Dark age, retro-tech was never a thing, and things like regular PPCs and lasers disappeared.  It's also why come the blackout every mech out there ran all clan tech chassis and no one was making IS level tech anymore, right? Existence does not equal universal availability.  Yes, a gutbuster over a regular IS ER PPC is preferred, just like a clantech PPC over a heavy PPC is preferred.  Doesn't mean everyone has access to it. 

It's the idea that the Wolverines alone came up with the Gutbuster in 20 years tops, and that no-one in the entire IS in the 60 years from the end of the Jihad to the dark age, couldn't duplicate that feat that makes the change silly.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm a bit surprised that TW wasn't able to resurrect NARC/iNARC from the Scrappy Heap.  A -1 on the missile attack role is nice but a NARCed unit can be the subject of Indirect LRM fire, without needing a spotter.

That said, as evil an idea as it sounds, the Nemesis pod seems like something that you could spend a career waiting for the chance to use.

Probably has to do with the lack of decent NARC/iNARC units, especially iNARC, since it's so faction specific.

[Black_Knyght]

since it's so faction specific.

Still don't think THAT was the best decision...