Missed Connection?

[Maelwys]

Well, while the Wolverine/WoB/Blood Conspiracy has been beaten to death (basically that the Wolverines fled, ran into ComStar, who harbored them, only to have the Wolverine remnants become sort of a hidden power inside ComStar and the force behind the Hidden), there seems to be a connection often either overlooked or forgotten about.

Well. Maybe not a connection, but one of those interesting little tidbits that is either another bit of the conspiracy, or just a coincidence. However, it seems like it rarely gets mentioned when people bring up the veracity of the Wolverine/WoB/Blood connection.

One of the WoB's secrets was that they were behind/closely linked to the Vicore company on Demeter. The one that was run by a CEO named Giovanni Estrella De la Sangre. Or, as far as I can tell, "Giovanni Estrella of the Blood."

Mind you, some of the early write ups state that his name is Sanger, and he just changed it presumably to make it sound better, but I figured I'd comment on it, since I never seem to see this point when the conspiracy is questioned.

[ColBosch]

Wait. You just got that?

[Maelwys]

Not exactly. I recognized the name and the translation. I've just never seen it pop up when someone starts talking about WoB/Wolverine/Blood connections, so I figured I'd mention it.

If someone asks about the connections, you'll often hear about how there's a passage in Jihad secrets about it, but unproven, Blake's Sword, etc. But you, or atleast I don't recall, and a search didn't seem to find any, hear someone say "Oh yeah, and the owner of their secret Mech factory has Blood in his name."

So I though I'd mention it.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Thanks for reading material for the next week ;)

[Sharpnel]

You forgot part of his name. Estrealla which means Star. So hi nam is really Giovanni Star of the Blood (or Star Blood or Bloodstar)

[Natasha Kerensky]

Reminds me of Coach Feratu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBOfj61PWCo

[Empyrus]

Uh, so, what's the connection?
Being slow here. Slow day.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Uh, so, what's the connection?
Being slow here. Slow day.

The Wolverine/Blakie cabal calls itself the Blood.  And de la Sangre literally means "of the Blood".

It's likes a British spy creating a cover for himself with the name "James Bond".

[Empyrus]

I see.
Hmm.
Does de la Sangre come from the Blood or does the Blood come from de la Sangre though? Like, suppose the de la Sangre is egoistical enough to form a cabal and name it after himself, sorta.

[Mendrugo]

Ex clanners aren’t known for hiding well.  Natasha didn’t hesitate to flaunt her Kerensky blood name.   The descendants of Trish Ebon (last Watch director of Clan Wolverine) seem to have named the MoC’s Ebon Directorate in her honor.

[Maelwys]

On the other hand, these are descendants of ex-Clanners who have had hundreds of years to get used to hiding.

I take it Trish Ebon being in charge of the Wolverine's Watch is  stated someplace? Though I'm pretty sure there's no proof of the connection between Trish Ebon and the Ebon Magistrate other than the name.

[Mendrugo]

"Betrayal of Ideals" features Trish Ebon as a major Wolverine character.  There's also an Iron Writer story by Randall Bills that pretty much confirms that the Magistracy of Canopus was secretly trading for tech with people with Clan mannerisms, which, given the intro to "Interstellar Expeditions," pretty much had to be the Minnesota Tribe - of which Trish was a member.

[Empyrus]

Wait, are you saying Wolverine-Minnesota Tribe-ComStar-The Blood-Word of Blake connection is basically true? Though with the twist Wolverines ended up scattered rather than concentrated in one place.

EDIT Actually, you're more or less saying the latter, not necessarily the former... But if the latter happened, the former is very plausible?

[ANS Kamas P81]

Well, apart from the Comstar part.  Apparently the Wolversotans ended up down in the Magistracy, rather than anywhere else.  It's also the likely origin of all those Dictator dropships.

[SCC]

Along these lines lately I've been thinking Stone might hail from the Clans. We know that the WoB was keeping Clan prisoners in camps like the one Stone came from, so as a simple out-there origin story it's not that bad, but the way the Paladins elect the Exarch does bear a striking similarity to the Clan Warrior Councils that elect the Khans.

[Mendrugo]

Wait, are you saying Wolverine-Minnesota Tribe-ComStar-The Blood-Word of Blake connection is basically true? Though with the twist Wolverines ended up scattered rather than concentrated in one place.

EDIT Actually, you're more or less saying the latter, not necessarily the former... But if the latter happened, the former is very plausible?

My theory, which fits what we know from various sources is that:

Wolverines fled along Exodus Road.  Stopped for supplies.  Split into four groups - main body, and three picket fleets.  Clan fleet hit main body and killed most.  Zughoffer Weir and two other ships fled, with Steel Vipers in pursuit.  Documents suggest ComStar encountered Kerensky Exodus fleet members in the Deep Periphery and brought them back to Terra/Mars.  Supported by the fact that the Zughoffer Weir later appeared in the WoB Jihad-era armada. 

Two picket fleets survived and linked up with late-arriving Wolverine sibcadets, became the Minnesota Tribe, and then worked their way around the Inner Sphere clockwise to the vicinity of the Magistracy of Canopus.  Traded with the Magistracy - becoming their "secret source of resources from beyond the Periphery".  Third picket fleet never seen again - outside chance they struck out on their own and became the Umayyads.  Equally good chance they settled closer, because someone keeps coming back to the massacre site and putting flowers on the graves.

During the Jihad, the Word of Blake paid special attention to the Magistracy, and there was a shadow war there between the Manei Domini borgs and the Ebon Directorate borgs.  Magistracy of Canopus went from having to write military manuals at a fifth grade level (with plans to revise downwards) to having elite super-cyborg commando agents pretty quick.  One explanation is - when Minnesotans abandoned their baseworld, they found a home in the Magistracy, and paid for their entry visas with advanced tech to create the Ebon Directorate.  Thus, the Jihad theater in the Magistracy was (for some reason) a grudge match between the descendants of the Zughoffer Weir crew and the descendants of the Minnesota Tribe. 

[Maelwys]

Are the Iron Writer stories canon, or just something thrown together?

And similar names as red herrings are a common schtick (see McEvedy's Folly).

[Frabby]

Are the Iron Writer stories canon, or just something thrown together?

They're not canon.
But what Mendrugo wrote above is completely based in canonical publications.

[Mendrugo]

Are the Iron Writer stories canon, or just something thrown together?

And similar names as red herrings are a common schtick (see McEvedy's Folly).

Iron Writer stories are explicitly non-canon because they were written in one hour at GenCon with no fact checking.  That being said, the secret tech trade story doesn’t contradict established canon, and offers us at the very least a glimpse into Randall’s ‘head canon,’ as it were.

[Maelwys]

Sure, or he just modified the ISP story where its the Magistracy and the Genecaste (or it was on his mind, etc). Plus doing some searching, you mentioned that its an Ebon Magistrate and a Clanner in the story, with no time given. However, the EM have only been around since about the 3060's, give or take,so it would be a modern story, rather than something that showed a connection to the Wolverine/Clans before the Clans showed up. We know that the Magistracy had been trying to get samples of Clantech, just like everyone else, so it wouldn't be that surprising that they'd try to do so as well. If they were trying to lower their reliance on the CapCon, its not surprising that any attempt to get the technology would be considered a serious secret, and thus the EM being used.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that there's lots of gaps that aren't proven yet.

[Empyrus]

The Magistracy probably got Clan salvage from Operation Bulldog. There was a Magistracy unit in the operation after all.

[abou]

@Mendrugo, I haven't paid enough attention to the Jihad stuff to notice all of that. Looks as though I will be going through all those books for details.

Makes me wonder what could have been if there hadn't been such issues between the writers post-Jihad. So much has been in flux with so much changing, who knows what the story would be. The presence of a Wolverine contingent in the WoB/ComStar also explains the Green Ghosts and their protection of Wolverine sites in ISP3 based on the tech they fielded.

[VhenRa]

My theory, which fits what we know from various sources is that:

Wolverines fled along Exodus Road.  Stopped for supplies.  Split into four groups - main body, and three picket fleets.  Clan fleet hit main body and killed most.  Zughoffer Weir and two other ships fled, with Steel Vipers in pursuit.  Documents suggest ComStar encountered Kerensky Exodus fleet members in the Deep Periphery and brought them back to Terra/Mars.  Supported by the fact that the Zughoffer Weir later appeared in the WoB Jihad-era armada. 

Two picket fleets survived and linked up with late-arriving Wolverine sibcadets, became the Minnesota Tribe, and then worked their way around the Inner Sphere clockwise to the vicinity of the Magistracy of Canopus.  Traded with the Magistracy - becoming their "secret source of resources from beyond the Periphery".  Third picket fleet never seen again - outside chance they struck out on their own and became the Umayyads.  Equally good chance they settled closer, because someone keeps coming back to the massacre site and putting flowers on the graves.

During the Jihad, the Word of Blake paid special attention to the Magistracy, and there was a shadow war there between the Manei Domini borgs and the Ebon Directorate borgs.  Magistracy of Canopus went from having to write military manuals at a fifth grade level (with plans to revise downwards) to having elite super-cyborg commando agents pretty quick.  One explanation is - when Minnesotans abandoned their baseworld, they found a home in the Magistracy, and paid for their entry visas with advanced tech to create the Ebon Directorate.  Thus, the Jihad theater in the Magistracy was (for some reason) a grudge match between the descendants of the Zughoffer Weir crew and the descendants of the Minnesota Tribe.

Honestly I wonder if another splinter is that bandit unit that merged with a DCMS Chain Gang unit to form the Harloc Raiders. 2825 (Same year as Minnesota Tribe), used old SLDF hardware and challenged the eventual founder of the Raiders to a one on one duel for leadership of their combined unit.

[Frabby]

Honestly I wonder if another splinter is that bandit unit that merged with a DCMS Chain Gang unit to form the Harloc Raiders. 2825 (Same year as Minnesota Tribe), used old SLDF hardware and challenged the eventual founder of the Raiders to a one on one duel for leadership of their combined unit.

You mean Harlock's Warriors (named after Sven Harlock, their 2825 chain gang leader), not the Harloc Raiders (named after the CC world of Harloc).
But yes, good catch. I had missed that one before.
Then again, the evidence is not conclusive. Ritualized combat including duels isn't Clan-exclusive at all. It has been around since basically forever, in BattleTech it was a big thing ever since the Gunslingers/Ronin, there was this general hype around MechWarriors as knight-errants, and when you look at it closely the Inner Sphere combat style of the late Succession Wars era is its own form of zellbrigen really, with the average commander so scared of breaking something lostech or losing his machine that battles were described as sometimes mere deployment and maneuvering exercises with the loser conceding the field without a shot fired.

[Drewbacca]

I probably missed the answer to this, but how do the Green Ghosts factor into this if at all?

[Frabby]

We don't know if they do. They're a strange Jihad era boogeyman faction with almost nothing known about them really - which in and of itself kinda sorta puts them into the Wolverine/Blood/Word of Blake mystery context.

A few things about the Green Ghosts raised some flags. They basically tend to show up at old Star League-era dig sites (or even sites merely supposed to be that, and later turning out as false positives), shoot everyone, destroy the site, steal the artifacts, and behave strangely on top of that.

[snewsom2997]

We don't know if they do. They're a strange Jihad era boogeyman faction with almost nothing known about them really - which in and of itself kinda sorta puts them into the Wolverine/Blood/Word of Blake mystery context.

A few things about the Green Ghosts raised some flags. They basically tend to show up at old Star League-era dig sites (or even sites merely supposed to be that, and later turning out as false positives), shoot everyone, destroy the site, steal the artifacts, and behave strangely on top of that.

I don't think the Green Ghosts were a single unite, but several using similar colors. I figure one groups was Goliath Scorpion Seekers, one group was Star Adders, and another was WOB.

[Maelwys]

We don't know if they do. They're a strange Jihad era boogeyman faction with almost nothing known about them really - which in and of itself kinda sorta puts them into the Wolverine/Blood/Word of Blake mystery context.

Actually, it might date back later than that. The FM:Lyran Alliance has the 9th Lyran Regulars "focusing their energies on hunting down a group of Periphery pirates that have been hitting world after world, but by all accounts only taking historical and archaeological records and items."

It might not have been as fleshed out back then, but the references aren't just Jihad/post-FASA civil War.

[YingJanshi]

Actually, it might date back later than that. The FM:Lyran Alliance has the 9th Lyran Regulars "focusing their energies on hunting down a group of Periphery pirates that have been hitting world after world, but by all accounts only taking historical and archaeological records and items."

It might not have been as fleshed out back then, but the references aren't just Jihad/post-FASA civil War.

There are actually quite a few little hooks like that scattered all over the last few FASA books. Considering that FASA usually plotted out all the big plot points some years in advance (or so I remember someone saying in an interview), it's pretty clear that they planned for some sort of throwdown between ComStar and the Word of Blake to be the next big event after the FCCW wound down.

Would be really curious to hear how much of the Jihad we saw lined up with what FASA had been planning...

[Empyrus]

Would be really curious to hear how much of the Jihad we saw lined up with what FASA had been planning...

The first Jihad sourcebook actually answers that:
It was far, far smaller than what it ended up being.