Author Topic: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion  (Read 107841 times)

MadCapellan

  • Furibunda Scriptorem
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12192
  • Just a little piglet serving the Capellan State!
    • Check out the anime I've seen & reviewed!
The rules look great overall!  My main concern comes from the C-Bill system being a mess, but that's beyond the scope of this product. 

I notice that the abstracted cost table (which I actually like quite a bit) lists a massive (x2.5!) cost modifier for using an XL engine, but Light Fusion engines get off with no cost increase.  That really doesn't seem right. 

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13208

One thing I don't like is the huge variation in available budget, and constantly having to reroll to get a funding for a size you like. "We're gonna create a lance!  ...at 10 million.  Okay, roll again.  ...120 million.  Roll again..."  There's only a couple usable values for each force size, lance-company-battalion equivalent, that would be workable.  I mean, each step up triples the number of units on average; would it be better to make it a single table with, oh, lance prices.  Off the top of my head, say a range from 10 million to 40 million or so, and then you'd either roll for each lance-equivalent force and total up, or else just multiply by how many "lances" you get.  Clans get a slight bonus to this for their organization, and the Blakists get a slightly higher multiplier...

It would be one way around making a set of "small" "medium" "large" tables for each approximate size, star/lance/level2 and company/trinary/level3 and battalion/cluster/level 4.  Though that may be better in the end, I dunno...as it is, your opening budget for a battalion of 36 units is really only dealing with three workable results.  Maybe you could put together a very light vehicle BN with some of the midrange results, but...in the other direction, even if you're going ultra-expensive XL-engined assault 'Mechs a lance of four would be hard-pressed to break the 120 million mark, and even 50 or 60 million would be enough for about everything.  It just seems to me the table is trying to cover too much and the steps between each are way too far apart.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4497
    • Tower of Jade

Edit: New question!
How can a House unit go under in debt? They aren't mercs so technically aren't all costs owned by the House itself?
Is this why certain units went on raids more? How could they pay off any debts in peacetime if their leige doesn't sic them on the enemy forces across the border?
Incompetent or corrupt officers who embezzle from the House, leading to the House unit's dissolution as corrupt officers are thrown in the stockade?
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4497
    • Tower of Jade
Maybe the word "administrator" is misleading - it suggests someone with authority. When I borrowed it from FM:Mercs, I was thinking of everything from low level file clerks, medic bedpan cleaners, and batmen (not the Dark Knight types) up through quartermasters, chief medical officers, and lawyers. Communications and intelligence tasks can easily require multiple personnel.

I doubt TPTB would allow me to use "REMFs," though.
Would changing "administrator" to "nontechnical support staff" or something similar help?

And TPTB might let you go with the ever popular "bean counter" or "paper pusher."
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
That's not really an issue BT's force creation rules have ever addressed. Ranks and organization of the force are addressed in prior publications like Total Warfare (which provides standard force sizes) and A Time of War, which discusses ranks in section on traits (pg124 has a nice table that, once you have your force organized into lances, companies, clusters, or whatever, should tell you which personnel have what ranks.)

Fair enough.  The inner personnel manager in me was curious.

Sure, new availability numbers are welcome. How would you recommend altering the formulas presented in the draft to make large spacecraft less available?

New cash numbers are welcome, too. How would you suggest altering the basic budget table?

First thing's first, if it's at all possible, I'd add more than one cash table for different sizes of unit, and have a modifier for large spacecraft on that basis.  After all, if you're only trying to make a single company, and you roll on the table and get 360,000,000 (!!!) CB to start, it's going to be pretty hard to spend it all without coming up with just exorbitant amounts of leftover, and that's if you're trying to make it as expensive as possible.  In 3025 terms, a full company of Atlases would leave over 247,000,000 CB left unspent, which is just ridiculous (and entirely possible to get!).

At any rate, I'll fiddle around a little bit with one table for figuring out the size of a randomly generated force (after all, if you know how big it should be, you can roll for cash right away on the appropriate table), and then a series of results based on the size of the force.  At the outset, I'm thinking of dividing the "tables" (can use one table, if space is a premium, with more columns and perhaps smaller print) into "Lance/Star",  "Company/Binary", "Battalion/Trinary", "Regiment/Cluster", and "RCT/Galaxy" for size purposes.  Still using the same 2d6 to determine results to keep it simple-ish.  More testing required to find exact values throughout.

For the modifier for large spacecraft, I'd go the conservative route and say that a RCT/Galaxy has by far the easiest time finding large craft for transport relative to everything else, and give them a flat no-bonus/no-penalty modifier other than what's already there.  Regiment/Cluster sized units probably the same (so, Regiment/Cluster and up no penalty/bonus).

For Battalion/Trinary sized units, it'd be more difficult to find dedicated jumpships for the unit than Regiments, but it would be far from impossible.  A simple +0 to dropships and +1 to jumpships (in the current iteration, it's easier to get jumpships than it is dropships!  The example in the text even shows this, with the dropship requiring a 9, and the jumpship with all the same modifiers requiring just a 8 with a veteran crew attached). 

Companies/Binaries can still conceivably have their own dropships and jumpships, though dropships are significantly more common at this level of force organization.  Dropships get a +1, and jumpships a +2.  Do note that for government units that this means that they have functionally the same chance of getting a jumpship as a Regiment sized mercenary or unaffiliated command.

Lances/Stars are very unlikely to have their own transports unless it's the Star League's heyday (or the Clans in general), so dropships are a +2 and jumpships a +3.  Also note that a government unit being granted a Leopard or other small, single-lance dropship is as likely here as it is for a battalion size mercenary unit, which sounds just about right to me.

Numbers are all obviously pulled out of nowhere with little to no testing as of right this second, but it passes the eye test from here.  Any problems I'm missing at first glance?
 
That's a good thought to capture when describing how to determine operating costs. "Keep an eye on your remaining cash versus costs."

While this is true, I'm more concerned about new players or players new to this kind of construction method falling into the trap of just plain not knowing how expensive operating costs are until it's already too late.



Hmm. In the force creation rules, I was looking at techs and astechs as equal, just personnel slots to be filled. Even the StratOps maintenance rules don't really utilize the difference between techs and astechs other than to set that high "1 tech and 6 astechs per vehicle" rule.

Honestly, I'd say, related to my Option 2 in my previous post, that full on Techs could be used as potential admin-slot fillers much like combat personnel.

Maybe the word "administrator" is misleading - it suggests someone with authority. When I borrowed it from FM:Mercs, I was thinking of everything from low level file clerks, medic bedpan cleaners, and batmen (not the Dark Knight types) up through quartermasters, chief medical officers, and lawyers. Communications and intelligence tasks can easily require multiple personnel.

True, and while that may be entirely necessary for battalion and regimental level staff positions, it still seems overkill for smaller commands.  Honestly, the smallest command that I'd expect to be independently dropped places (and then mostly as mercenaries) is a 'Mech company, and it requires almost as much administrators as fighting personnel, beyond even techs!

I'd argue that a bedpan cleaner doesn't really have any authority, but then I'd be nitpicking.  But then again, honestly, I probably wouldn't have a problem with distinct medical personnel instead of lumping everything that isn't combat or technical personnel into the "administrator" grouping.  It's just something that irritates me, and I admit isn't necessarily a problem with balance.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Mostro Joe

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 397
Actually, I cut out the doctors and lawyers and such and turned most of them into techs or administrators to simplify matters.

Why? Actually in StratOps doctors and their relative medical teams are included, so it could be confusing when it's time to go for the mainteinance cycles.
 
Techs increased in number because StratOps, for whatever reason, specifies 7-man tech teams instead of ye olde 1-tech-per-'Mech.

Better this way. While it is fun to have problems in keeping the pieces of your machines together. And better than StatOps that said "astechs are found wherever you go".

Bleh. While I'm responsible for this oversight, I blame you for making me rewrite all the budget example discussions now. :)

But as I recall, technicians have not officer ranks. The highest rank for them is Warrant Officer if I remember well my old House Manuals.

Rules for dependents are just for force creation? I really liked the rules in FM: Mercs Supplement II, they were accurate and they permitted to create a history and even the possibility to pass your mech from father to son (for an exemple).

I think the need for clothes and food are accounted for yet in the "spare parts" for infantry squads. It would be fine to specify it if it's true and it would be better to remeber that saying that spare parts for vehicles include food, new uniforms and such for crews (mechwarriors or tank gunners or pilots or whatever).

I am the only one that has noticed that in one passage a "Force Operations" book is nominated?
« Last Edit: 27 November 2012, 15:41:29 by Mostro Joe »

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11030
I am the only one that has noticed that in one passage a "Force Operations" book is nominated?

It's another section that goes along with Creating a Force.  It's not a separate book.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6262
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
One thing I don't like is the huge variation in available budget, and constantly having to reroll to get a funding for a size you like.

Well, that's because the basic force budget rules aren't supposed to give you the force budget you like. Rather, as stated on pg15 under Alternate Flexible Force Construction, "The basic force budget assumes the controlling player does not have a particularly strong opinion about what size and type of force is being built." In other words, the basic rules give you a random budget to build a force when you can't make up your own mind.

But if you have a strong opinion about what size of force you want, then use the Alternate Flexible Force Construction Rules. Build the force you want rather than going through a sham of rolling dice, since it's not like the game police are going to storm your house and lash you with wet noodles for building a 7-division all omni-assault 'Mech merc force with 37 supporting WarShips. The only people who care are the players in your group (and GM, if present), and since the resulting force is not a tournament legal thing, it is your fellow players that approve or reject your resulting force.

Under the Alternate Flexible Force Construction Rules, you can build the lance, company, or corps of your dreams, and the rules support you by describing how to fill out a TO&E, determine tonnage and costs of supplies, and figuring out your operating costs to carry over into hiring negotiations. Is there room for grotesque abuse? Sure, you could build a multi-corps army. But if it's fun for the gamers at your table - the folks who approve it - go for it. Don't bother with dozens of rolls trying to get the force you want when you can just build it.

I mean, that's what players have been doing for decades. They build the force of their dreams and use the merc rules to provide some framework to their dreamtime. Why not embrace that?

I notice that the abstracted cost table (which I actually like quite a bit) lists a massive (x2.5!) cost modifier for using an XL engine, but Light Fusion engines get off with no cost increase.  That really doesn't seem right. 

I can add light engines. The easier method, in terms of writing rules, is to use the correct cost of the unit as determined by Tech Manual / Tactical Operations / Strategic Operations rather than half-assed quick-n-dirty rules provided in IntOps force creation chapter. Ideally, MUL will be able to provide extensive cost listings for all units and the placeholder unit cost table will be removed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Minerva

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 212
Peacetime ammo expenditure is awfully low.

Mid-1990's tank crew in active service in US Army could expect to fire about 120 (was it 128?) full sized rounds per year (during cold war ammo use was typically between 100 to 200 rounds per year in many armies but that was before laser-tag games). Assuming you use about 10 "shots" per ton (nominal AC/10), you can theoretically shoot about 1 ton per weapon per month (assume AC/5 and AC/2 have more rounds fired per target in training and AC/20 less due some training reasons).

The peacetime spare parts consumption is also awfully low.

There are two components: First is the "non-recurring" spares pile you need before nothing happens at all and second is the annually spent "recurring" spares pile based on normal operating costs. In late 1960's it was estimated that non-recurring costs were 10% for normal equipment and 20% for aircraft. Normal annual recurring direct maintenance spares use was about 4% of value of equipment. Typically you also need extra 20% of annual maintenance spares as civilian contractors pay for the direct maintenance. This means that about 5% of cost of item are used every year as direct maintenance.

Naturally you also need to send your toys to do some depot work. Assuming things go like above you need to pay about 1% of initial value as direct depot costs (and extra 27.4% as indirect depot pay to keep staff working).

Admin personnel numbers way too low.

Generally combat units are roughly 25% of the entire field army. Thus the manpower in supporting arms and rear-area forces should be triple the numbers present (think everything beyond battalion level formation).

More detailed values are following as percentage of combat unit strengths:
1) Following units could be present in unit
3.5% Command & control (top management)
50,9% Artillery (yes, gunners are very common in army)
21,1% Air defence (against those pesky aerospace people)
10,2% Aviation (our helos) add extra +5% for your real air force units
2,7% Chemical (this does both defensive and offensive work and handles bioweapons too)
2,9% Civil Affairs (to deal with local people)
60,4% Engineers (well over half of these are building something in rear)
2,2% Military intelligence (not recce! these people do tons of analysis)
5,1% SIGINT people (mostly 24/7 listening posts but also offensive jamming)
10,8% Military police (rear security, prisoners, pow camp guarding, traffic control)
25,6% Signals (making sure everybody knows where everybody is)
1,6% Psyops (lies and bandwidth warfare)

2) These units are not normally in battlefield itself but are necessary for military functioning so they are in rear areas.
8,1% Ammunition (inspect and prepare and store munitions including your nukes, deals with EOD too)
0,2% JAG (Did you know there is roughly 1 war crimes case per 10000 men per month?)
58,1% Maintenance people (serious maintenance and repair for the whole circus)
20,6% medical (patching peoples bodies and minds and also teeth)
9,3% Personnel & admin services (personal assistants typing pools, clerks and postal service, they are also responsible for personnel bureaucratic management)
0,9% Finance (handles pay for soldiers and locals)
1,1% Chaplain (buries people, deals with dead and prevent suicides)
30,6% Supply & Services (keeps up massive supply depots and deals with who gets what)
11,3% Transportation (moving the stuff from depots to whoever needs them)
0,02% Military history (rewriting history to make us look good!)
0,2% Public information (deals with press and very important people who came to see the unit)

The following numbers are intended to medium intensity battlefield in Europe so certain assets are increased/decreased in other kinds of fighting (like counterinsurgency).

Specialist units with people who do raids and like are perhaps 0,4% (quite nominal figure).

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Hmm. The item on the Equipment Availability and Cost Table, "First Star League Equipment for non-Clan force after 2860," actually referred to REAL 1st Star League hardware leftover from, well, the Star League.

However, it's probably better to change it to "First Star League Equipment for non-Clan force between 2860 and 3040," or "Tech E and F Equipment for non-Clan force between 2860 and 3040." Any other suggestions on clarifying it?
Not really, but your suggested change has another problem: What about First League tech that was never re-discovered?

Armitage72

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 137
Food is handled out of salaries. If troops want to eat, they get money to pay for it.

If you want to know the tonnage of food consumed, StratOps provides some guidelines for consumable tonnage.

Given that, the way space travel works in Battletech, a unit could spend a month or more floating in space, I was picturing determining how much needs to be spent to make sure your personnel don't starve to death en route.

"Bad new everyone.  We had a malfunction in our KF-Drive, and we're going to be stranded in this uninhabited system for about two months while we make repairs.  Don't worry.  We have plenty of cash on hand, so everyone will still get paid.  You'll be able to...buy food...at...oops."

In the 1e Mercenary's Handbook and Combat Operations,  consumable supplies (food, medicine, spare uniforms, etc.) cost 500 C-Bills per squad per month; approximately 20,000 C-Bills per month for the example unit.
Mercenary's Handbook 3055 and the two Field Manuals didn't mention the price of food.

If we use the 1.5 C-Bills per meal price for Mess Hall food, the example unit would consume 28,350 C-Bills of food per month.

Armitage72

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 137
Pg 9 also says:
This step addresses the minimum mandatory "behind the scenes" support personnel. Players interested in combat engineers, MASH forces, and other non-mandatory supporting personnel may acquire them in Step 1.

A MASH is bought as a vehicle, with 5 Administrators (medics) included as part of the crew for each operating theater.
e.g. the MASH in TRO: 3039 has 27 crew members: driver, gunner, and 25 assorted medical personnel.

Acolyte

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1475
A MASH is bought as a vehicle, with 5 Administrators (medics) included as part of the crew for each operating theater.
e.g. the MASH in TRO: 3039 has 27 crew members: driver, gunner, and 25 assorted medical personnel.

So, you're saying that you're gonna pay combat medics and their doctors 2/3 of the salary of your basic grunt? Sorry, but that sort needs a higher salary. By your reasoning, the driver and gunner are each earning almost twice what the doctor is. Just not reasonable. And yes, that is what the current rules would state, but this is a discussion thread for people to hash things like this out.

My suggestion would be to grab the salary table straight out of AToW. Might as well unify things.

Thank You
   - Shane
« Last Edit: 27 November 2012, 19:09:08 by Acolyte »
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
It is by the coffee that my thoughts acquire speed
My teeth acquire stains
The stains become a warning
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

Ryumyo

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 466
  • Out site seeing...
Cray, the "Force generation" rules are fairly straight forward. Please keep up the great work. As far as the nitpickers over the term "administrator", can't they figure out that the term is just a fancy word for SUPPORT PERSONNEL. They may not be the warfighters we know, but, they keep the warmachine running.
Now my question, as far as the tech modifiers (SL. 2.5, Clan 5.0 etc ...). Do these stack or are they multipliers? If this question has been answered, then please disregard.
Thanks.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37046
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
...
Hmm. In the force creation rules, I was looking at techs and astechs as equal, just personnel slots to be filled. Even the StratOps maintenance rules don't really utilize the difference between techs and astechs other than to set that high "1 tech and 6 astechs per vehicle" rule.
...
In maintenance operations? Not that I see in StratOps. As you noted, the presence of exoskeletons increases cargo movement rates.
...
StratOps doesn't use the difference, but it does make a disctinction (p. 168, emphasis mine): "A full-strength Technical Team consists of one tech and six semi-skilled astechs."  That would seem to imply the "suitable or trained" bar is lower for astechs than techs.  And as far as exoskeletons being useful for repair work, I offer any component weighing more than 25kg or so, and the "salvage arm" manipulator.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
Cray, the "Force generation" rules are fairly straight forward. Please keep up the great work. As far as the nitpickers over the term "administrator", can't they figure out that the term is just a fancy word for SUPPORT PERSONNEL. They may not be the warfighters we know, but, they keep the warmachine running.

If "administrator" is a fancy word for "support personnel" why not just use the term "support personnel" and remove any unnecessary ambiguity?  Administrator carries with it connotation beyond just support.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
My suggestion would be to grab the salary table straight out of AToW. Might as well unify things.

I'll second that idea.

If "administrator" is a fancy word for "support personnel" why not just use the term "support personnel" and remove any unnecessary ambiguity?  Administrator carries with it connotation beyond just support.

And this one too actually.

Mukaikubo

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 98
OK cray, hopefully you're interested in seeing someone run through these rules to create a sample force to see what a player misconception is and maybe see some rough patches, so here it goes for everyone's amusement and edification:

The Idea: Create an all-mech mercenary unit made up mostly of ex-Comguards personnel in 3057, and keep ~12-18 months of peacetime costs on hand as a final cash reserve.

The leader, I used an old PC of mine who fought at Tukayyid, retired, and formed a merc group in an old campaign. Total, his traits and skill bonii add up to 5 points; I used the suggested change I made, which would give him a 50% bonus to starting budget rather than doubling it. Budget roll was an 8, for 75M Cbills; era multiplied it by 1.5, leader multiplied it by 1.5, and for faction since there's no Comguards entry and some of the people are general mercs I did nondescript faction to multiply by 0.8.

75M * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.8 = 135,000,000 C-bill budget.

Opted to go for 2 Level IIs, one fast cavalry and one recon mech Level II; the merc force's focus is going to be on speed and mobility more than grinding it out, an ideal raiding force. I followed the procedure of trying to buy two of each mech I wanted, one vet and one regular; if I got neither I moved on to the next mech. I used straight up rules as written, with no penalty for Tech-2 equipment circa 3057, or any penalty for IS omnimechs, et cetera, but I really think this needs more attention. Anyway, many rolls later, I wound up with:

Level II #1: (total cost, 68.3 million C-bills)
FLC-8R (Regular)
OTL-5M (Veteran)
OTL-5M (Regular)
ANV-5M (Regular)
LNX-9C (Regular)
GRF-3M (Veteran)

Level II #2: (total cost,  42.6 million C-bills)
NGS-5T (Veteran)
NGS-5T (Regular)
PXH-3K (Regular)
HER-4S (Regular)
JA-KL-1532 (Veteran)
JA-KL-1532 (Regular)

Also note that I was borderline abusing the system by going after lots of high tech, just released mechs, since there was no reason not to with the availability rules as-written!  O:-)

Picked force specializations of -1 to init vs. Wobbies (figuring they would be all spy-y on an ex-comguards merc unit, even this early) and +1 to init vs. Clanners (because REMEMBER TUKAYYID and all that);

110.9M Cbills * 0.9 * 1.25 = 124.7M cbills final equipment cost, leaving 10.3M cbills in the kitty.

Large craft, a stock 28th century Union was plenty and more for me; the roll to get it was vs. 8 (cost/50M + 5 is 10, then -1 for the era and -1 for a Union being dirt common); rolled an 8, got it. Went after an Invader, also vs. 8 in total, but rolled a 7 so this unit is reliant on other jumpships for transport.

Support costs! First off, the 12 mechs will need 12 techs and 72 Astechs to run it, and on rolling I got 5 veterans and 7 regular tech teams. (Side note: Do Astechs skill with their tech? I calculated salaries as if all Techs were regular.)

So, adding everyone and the Union crew together, I have 12 combat, 84 tech, and 14 spacers. That's 110 personnel, so I need 11 support/admin people to handle this two-Level II outfit.

Salaries! Four veteran mechwarriors, two of whom are officers (one for each Level II) come to 10,560 per month. 8 regular mechwarriors, 12k a month; 5 veteran techs and 7 regular techs come to 12k per month, the 72 regular astechs 28.8k per month, 14k a month for the dropship crewmen, and 5500 a month for support personnel... all told, 82,860 Cbills per month in salaries.

Ammo costs; the OTLs each have a ton of AMS ammo, so that's 1k/month AMS ammo between the two combined. Falconer eats 10k a month in gauss ammo cost, the Lynx burns 27k a month in SSRM-2 ammo, and the Griffin burns 15k a month in LRM-20 ammo. The two Jackals each fire 14k a month off of SSRM-2 ammo. Mech ammo costs come to 81,000 Cbills per month. Similarly, spare part costs are easy, and for the mechs they come to 6,000 Cbills a month.

The Union was trickier. Ammo was fine; 3 tons AC/5 ammo and 8 tons LRM-20 ammo means you're firing 63,375 Cbills per month in dropship ammo. Spare parts likewise straightforward, 3600 tons, 0.1% tons per month, 15k Cbills/ton... 54,000 Cbills per month in Union spares. Fuel was the hardest part, and I'm not at all sure I have it right- this is really unintuitive for me going through this. A Union holds 210 tons of fuel for a number of days I found in Sarna, and so 15 burn-days a month translates to 27 tons of hydrogen a month... I think. That would come to 405k Cbills/month in Union fuel costs, easily the biggest single cost.

Totalling the salaries, ammo, spare parts, and Union costs together, I get 692,235 Cbills per month peacetime costs; with the unit's cash reserves of 10.3 million, that means it has enough cash-on-hand to survive for about 15 months, right in line with the design goals.

So... any mistakes I made in there, other beta-testers reading these rules? Any thoughts on my comments going through about rough bits?


SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
How do one-shot launchers work in regards to peace time ammo expenditure? I can't exactly fire off a quarter of a RL-10

Wildonion

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 741
  • I'm just a few onions short of a patch.
While I am only a short way into the document, I want to applaud the humor and voice of the piece before coming back to say anything else. I had to a stifle a particularly loud laugh when I got to stage 3 and read "Buy all the stuff!". Got me a few funny looks from others in the computer lab. Bravo!  O0

Archameades

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Thank you for spelling out your run through Mukaikubo; I'm still only part way through my test runs and it was a helpful reference, but the following caught my eye.

Quote
Large craft, a stock 28th century Union was plenty and more for me; the roll to get it was vs. 8 (cost/50M + 5 is 10, then -1 for the era and -1 for a Union being dirt common)

According to Dropships and Jumpships, the book referenced for the Invaders being very common.  The Union is an uncommon design, in fact it's the minimum that all military dropships are.  The minimum roll modifier for them being +1 (0 for average and +1 for military).

I only mention this because how rare a ship is could change wildly from era to era..  A master chart would be very nice, but could be cumbersome given how many ship types there area and all the different eras.  Though perhaps an inclusion in the MUL would help this, if it can't be added to a print or pdf product?

Also, given the price of hydrogen fuel, I can't see any unit I create not having a support vehicle of some kind to drill wells for water(for Hydrogen production).  I'll have to design one if nothings been published yet... 

Also, I'd like to chime in on the administrators not being too high.  I wouldn't count medical services in there at all, and I can easily justify requiring 1 in 5 people for supporting a unit.  A unit with just 50 personnel could easily require multiple people in payroll, safety, human resources, controller, quarter master, general clerks, IT support, employer or command liaisons,  plus I'm sure others can think of more positions.
« Last Edit: 28 November 2012, 16:13:21 by Archameades »

Archameades

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 31
The budget modification table on page 4, is it supposed to refer to the Capallan Hegemony?  Or should the Capellan Confederation be there instead?

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6262
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Peacetime ammo expenditure is awfully low.

I actually asked about this on the off-topic forums when in-house playtesters complained about high ammo expenses and uses. The thread is here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,23855.msg532907.html#msg532907

Quote
This means that about 5% of cost of item are used every year as direct maintenance.

That's a number I can work with.

Quote
Admin personnel numbers way too low.

I just got whiplash. :) Feel free to battle to the death (or cordially discuss) with the playtesters here who think the admin personnel numbers are way too high. Last man standing will get their numbers used in the rules.



The budget modification table on page 4, is it supposed to refer to the Capallan Hegemony?  Or should the Capellan Confederation be there instead?

The early Hegemony. It serves as a placeholding example that the force creation rules are all-era, all-faction.



While I am only a short way into the document, I want to applaud the humor and voice of the piece before coming back to say anything else. I had to a stifle a particularly loud laugh when I got to stage 3 and read "Buy all the stuff!". Got me a few funny looks from others in the computer lab. Bravo!  O0

Thank you, though my efforts at humor are not universally appreciated. For example, a certain BT line developer ordered me to punch myself in the groin repeatedly for a section heading "It's Life, Jim, But Not As We Know It" in the system generation rules.  :D
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
The budget modification table on page 4, is it supposed to refer to the Capallan Hegemony?  Or should the Capellan Confederation be there instead?
Hegemony, most Successor States aren't actually listed

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
As previously stated, I'd have no trouble if "Admin" was actually "support personnel".

Connotation is important, plus it'd also add a bit of granularity without having too much extra to keep track of.  Instead of just "admins", have "support personnel", and define the rough amounts therein between medical personnel, actual administrative staff, and other support functions.  Wouldn't even have to change the numbers at that point.

That, and allow head techs/astechs fulfill support personnel slots just like combat personnel can.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Archameades

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Quote
I just got whiplash. :) Feel free to battle to the death (or cordially discuss) with the playtesters here who think the admin personnel numbers are way too high. Last man standing will get their numbers used in the rules.

The difference in opinion is probably between those of us exposed to real bureaucracy and logistics in our daily lives and those who enjoy it as a hobby only.  :)

Quote
As previously stated, I'd have no trouble if "Admin" was actually "support personnel".

The problem with that is that "Support Personnel" already covers the technical staff.  It would be very difficult to not confuse people by saying they need X number of extra support personnel based on how many combat personnel and technical support personnel they have.

I didn't care for the style of the Base Budget table, while I know I am free to do whatever I please.  I would prefer to see something similar to the alternate mercenary creation rules in Mercs Supplemental for size escalation.

Use a table like:                      With a modifier for force size like:
2  -  7,500,000                         Lance X 1
3  -  8,000,000                         Company X 3.5
4  -  9,000,000                         Battalion X 9
5  -  10,000,000                       Regiment X 25
6  -  12,000,000
7  -  14,000,000
8  -  17,500,000
9  -  20,000,000
10 -  24,000,000
11  -  32,000,000
12  -  40,000,000

Ond of the lowest unmodified rolls (Third Succession War @ 1.0) for a Non-descript faction should still be enough for a lance of the Urbanmechs, while the highest would allow four Atlases.  A Periphery state or other minor power, might have be forced to field a short lance at the worst of times.  Which I find perfectly reasonable, these would be the factions that are fluffed as being harder off.

While a Jihad era Lyran unit commander with a few helpful traits would have lots of room for cool toys..
« Last Edit: 28 November 2012, 18:01:50 by Archameades »

Mostro Joe

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 397
Up :)

Quote from: cray on 26 November 2012, 15:49:16

    Actually, I cut out the doctors and lawyers and such and turned most of them into techs or administrators to simplify matters.


Why? Actually in StratOps doctors and their relative medical teams are included, so it could be confusing when it's time to go for the mainteinance cycles.
 
Quote from: cray on 26 November 2012, 15:49:16

    Techs increased in number because StratOps, for whatever reason, specifies 7-man tech teams instead of ye olde 1-tech-per-'Mech.


Better this way. While it is fun to have problems in keeping the pieces of your machines together. And better than StatOps that said "astechs are found wherever you go".

Quote from: cray on 26 November 2012, 15:49:16

    Bleh. While I'm responsible for this oversight, I blame you for making me rewrite all the budget example discussions now. :)


But as I recall, technicians have not officer ranks. The highest rank for them is Warrant Officer if I remember well my old House Manuals.

Rules for dependents are just for force creation? I really liked the rules in FM: Mercs Supplement II, they were accurate and they permitted to create a history and even the possibility to pass your mech from father to son (for an exemple).

I think the need for clothes and food are accounted for yet in the "spare parts" for infantry squads. It would be fine to specify it if it's true and it would be better to remeber that saying that spare parts for vehicles include food, new uniforms and such for crews (mechwarriors or tank gunners or pilots or whatever).

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Some of the prices are off by a bit. Assault 'Mechs are 12 Mill under this but the list price for an Atlas is just over 9, Assault Vehicles however are under priced at the high end, prices for Demolishers and Schreks line up with what is given here, but the Behemoth is 3 Mill, 50% then it would cost to buy one under these rules

roguecommander

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 106
I have been toying around with the force creation rules also and it occurred to me that it might be nice to have the option to do an availability check with a modifier that would represent obtaining a unit for the force that would be considered extinct in the era the player's force is being created. Not for 1st Star League tech but like an Age of War 'Mech showing up in the late succession wars like the firebee or the battleaxe.

wellspring

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1502
I'm compiling a full list of reactions, and I'll post that later. VERY happy with what I've seen in the sample chapters so far. For now, just three things I wanted to weigh in on.

First, asTechs. Looking at Strat Ops, Strategic Operations mentions that the six astechs can be drawn from a pool (they're essentially unskilled workmen), and are not assigned to a specific unit the way the techs are. (Also if you want to be consistent with Strat Ops, keep in mind that it also prescribes an extra unassigned tech team per 4 dedicated tech teams.)

So you still have your one canonical Tech per Mech. Six asTechs can service a Mech in a (recommended/abstract) 8 hour cycle, just like Strat Ops says, but if all you're doing is peacetime maintenance, then those six assistants can rotate and service 7 Mechs per week. Per Strat Ops, double time adds 50% effective work hours, so you can service 10 Mechs per week if they work double shifts, 5 if they keep bankers' hours. That cuts your staff significantly, gets you more in line with previous source material, and draws on rules already published.

Going further, you can add more optional asTechs lets you use the StratOps rules to buy additional repair cycles per week. Large teams let you get back in shape quickly between battles. Small tech teams can't do more than keep undamaged Mechs in fighting shape. Or, again, you could outsource the asTech role to local contract labor (with an attendent availability roll).

Second issue: Medics. They're called out specifically in Strat Ops, and it's more consistent to keep them separate in these rules. Others have said this, too; put my name down to agree. It's also got some nice RPG implications. (edit: by adding medics in the form of MASH units and the free medlabs you get with large spacecraft, you already have ready-made mechanics in place to manage them. And you don't have to then go back and work out what integral medical capability a force gets for "free" as part of its administrative staff.)

Third issue: Admins. NOT a fan of the admin rules. Do admin costs get lower when it's a large government operation? I don't see it, even with "economies of scale" or off-camera administrative divisions picking up some of the tab. Big organizations (including governments) usually add layers of extraneous process and procedure. So in practice, you usually have what economists call diseconomies of scale. So your numbers low-ball admin requirements for large armies, which require oodles of support staff, and overstate requirements for small forces like mom-and-pop merc units and pirate gangs. (edit: having the divisor be based on a table of the number of combat troops would clear this up completely. As it stands, when you count the support tail, I'm not seeing merc forces being able to fit in the DropShip/JumpShip combos that have canonically been used to transport them.)

(And since personal credibility on this came up, I'll stipulate in advance that I have no military experience. I do have considerable experience in organization science as a researcher, educator, and former practitioner in both the public and private sectors.)
« Last Edit: 29 November 2012, 13:51:57 by wellspring »