Author Topic: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW (Read 40628 times)

ScrapYardArmory · « **on:** 27 January 2016, 22:43:48 »

So the final PDF is now available. Time to take a look at the changes and updates. I've noticed a few tweaks so far. I'll add some of my own comments as I absorb it all.

Chime in and share your thoughts!

beachhead1985 · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 January 2016, 23:21:05 »

Wait, so this is what will be printed then? I thought this was the final-beta?

nckestrel · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 January 2016, 23:32:11 »

Quote from: beachhead1985 on 27 January 2016, 23:21:05

Wait, so this is what will be printed then? I thought this was the final-beta?

This is the non-beta that was just released today.

Tai Dai Cultist · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 January 2016, 11:05:42 »

The most interesting topic in IO is still a forbidden topic of discussion.

nckestrel · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 January 2016, 11:18:18 »

Quote from: Tai Dai Cultist on 28 January 2016, 11:05:42

The most interesting topic in IO is still a forbidden topic of discussion.

Note the subject title
"Lets Talk ACS and ISW"

The Purist · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 January 2016, 11:48:12 »

Sooooo,.... the book will be ready for sale,... when?

For this one I might just buy both the final pdf and the hard copy book. Together with Strategic Ops the Universe has a tool for era campaigns that players could take part in at levels from BT to AS to BF. The ACS make resolving large scale battles that are not the primary focus of a campaign much more doable without losing focus on your merc unit or command of that special house formation.

Vandervecken · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 January 2016, 15:46:29 »

They don't seem to have changed what seems to me is a major problem with the Inner Sphere At War ruleset:
There seems to be little value in upgrading worlds as an RP generating system. For example:
The cost to upgrade an "Other World" to a "Minor Industrial World" is 576RP, which will pay off in 26 game turns (a 22RP increase in production).
The cost to upgrade a Minor world to a Major world is even worse. It's 960RP for a gain of 16RP/turn, which means it pays off in 60 turns.
By contrast I could put that RP in "investment", since all RPs left over from previous turns just generate 5% interest. That 960RP 'invested' would return 100% in 20 turns, not 60.

It seems like an odd design decision that stunts the gameplay. Does anyone understand why it is the way it is?

Alexander Knight · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 January 2016, 15:50:31 »

Well, how many worlds in the canon history do you see get upgraded aside from the 3050 boomlet in factories?

jh316 · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 January 2016, 16:00:38 »

Quote from: Tai Dai Cultist on 28 January 2016, 11:05:42

The most interesting topic in IO is still a forbidden topic of discussion.

Which topic is that?

Anyway, is there a summary of changes anywhere? It's a rather big book to do a line-by-line comparison.

ScrapYardArmory · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 January 2016, 16:37:53 »

Quote from: jh316 on 28 January 2016, 16:00:38

Which topic is that?

Anyway, is there a summary of changes anywhere? It's a rather big book to do a line-by-line comparison.

The topic in question is about LAMs.

I'm working my way through the ISW and ACS sections, and while I won't be aiming for a line by line account, I do plan on pointing out major changes that I notice.

Vandervecken · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 January 2016, 19:21:15 »

Quote from: Alexander Knight on 28 January 2016, 15:50:31

Well, how many worlds in the canon history do you see get upgraded aside from the 3050 boomlet in factories?

Not many, but that's really because it was a bad idea, it was more that the Houses didn't have the resources. In ISW terms, I would say they didn't have very much RP spare to invest. But if and when they had the RP to invest, they sure did it.

The point is really this: Is it intentional that building factories should be considered a bad choice when compared to "nebulously investing the money by leaving it unspent". If anything, maybe factories should be cheaper. After all, it's easier to attack factory worlds that represent physical sources of RP than it is to attack pools of unspent RP that live in no particular location.

idea weenie · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 January 2016, 20:31:57 »

For those looking, here is the Home page about it:

http://bg.battletech.com/news/news-and-announcements/interstellar-operations-print-preorder-is-here/

What could be done for investment vs infrastructure, is making it so if you want to upgrade a world so its RP increases faster than basic investment, you have to announce the location to other players. If you want to upgrade the planet without letting the people on your border know about a juicy target, you pay the higher price.

Daryk · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 January 2016, 21:19:35 »

The table of contents is hyperlinked! Awesome addition, thanks!

NeonKnight · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 January 2016, 21:28:14 »

Anyone know how I go about getting the free PDF upgrade? I purchased a print copy with PDF at GENCON last year, and from the NEWS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS:

(Anyone that previously participated in the Open Beta by purchasing that PDF will be receiving the final, corrected PDF for free!)

But I don;t know where I need to go to get that.

ColBosch · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 January 2016, 21:38:42 »

Quote from: NeonKnight on 28 January 2016, 21:28:14

Anyone know how I go about getting the free PDF upgrade? I purchased a print copy with PDF at GENCON last year, and from the NEWS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS:

(Anyone that previously participated in the Open Beta by purchasing that PDF will be receiving the final, corrected PDF for free!)

But I don;t know where I need to go to get that.

Where did you download the PDF from?

ScrapYardArmory · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 January 2016, 22:12:27 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 28 January 2016, 21:38:42

Where did you download the PDF from?

People who were able to buy the dead tree beta version at GenCon also received a thumb drive with the PDF copy on it.

ScrapYardArmory · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 January 2016, 22:15:18 »

Quote from: Vandervecken on 28 January 2016, 15:46:29

They don't seem to have changed what seems to me is a major problem with the Inner Sphere At War ruleset:
There seems to be little value in upgrading worlds as an RP generating system. For example:
The cost to upgrade an "Other World" to a "Minor Industrial World" is 576RP, which will pay off in 26 game turns (a 22RP increase in production).
The cost to upgrade a Minor world to a Major world is even worse. It's 960RP for a gain of 16RP/turn, which means it pays off in 60 turns.
By contrast I could put that RP in "investment", since all RPs left over from previous turns just generate 5% interest. That 960RP 'invested' would return 100% in 20 turns, not 60.

It seems like an odd design decision that stunts the gameplay. Does anyone understand why it is the way it is?

One really important incentive to upgrading worlds from "Other" to "Minor Industrial" is the fact that you can place newly minted Combat Commands on them.

But there probably is not much more incentive to go from Minor to Major. You still have a valid point.

ColBosch · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 January 2016, 22:23:42 »

Quote from: ScrapYardArmory on 28 January 2016, 22:12:27

People who were able to buy the dead tree beta version at GenCon also received a thumb drive with the PDF copy on it.

That may not have been the best plan on CGL's part, because I have no idea how they will be able to authenticate those purchases.

Obvious · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 January 2016, 22:28:59 »

For those that purchased it through battleshop, the order where you have "BattleTech: Interstellar Operations - BETA (PDF)" has the download. The file you can download from there is 8 pages longer than the beta was and has the "Beta" logo removed from the cover.
(1 page of Garrison rules, 7 pages of indexes.)

Wrangler · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 January 2016, 22:43:50 »

I want to get into the Abstract System. Though i'm not big fan of Alpha Strike, i like ability to do battalion size forces going to town with another units in full invasions.

I wonder if the other half of the IO, the Companion will include regimental stats. Or will the Combat Manuals will include them?

ColBosch · « **Reply #20 on:** 28 January 2016, 22:51:06 »

Quote from: Wrangler on 28 January 2016, 22:43:50

I want to get into the Abstract System. Though i'm not big fan of Alpha Strike, i like ability to do battalion size forces going to town with another units in full invasions.

I wonder if the other half of the IO, the Companion will include regimental stats. Or will the Combat Manuals will include them?

The Combat Manuals are meant for Alpha Strike, so that's a negative. Not sure what the plan is for them otherwise.

Obvious · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 January 2016, 23:01:58 »

They added the missing Garrisons page to the end of the main content of the book (p368) that were (incompletely) detailed here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=47667.msg1102531#msg1102531

Upgrading a world gives it a minor bonus to the garrison force roll if using Detailed Garrisons.

NeonKnight · « **Reply #22 on:** 28 January 2016, 23:38:23 »

Quote from: ScrapYardArmory on 28 January 2016, 22:12:27

People who were able to buy the dead tree beta version at GenCon also received a thumb drive with the PDF copy on it.

yeah, checked the Dead Tree version for maybe a code or something...nothing :(

Vandervecken · « **Reply #23 on:** 29 January 2016, 00:46:40 »

Quote from: ScrapYardArmory on 28 January 2016, 22:15:18

One really important incentive to upgrading worlds from "Other" to "Minor Industrial" is the fact that you can place newly minted Combat Commands on them.

But there probably is not much more incentive to go from Minor to Major. You still have a valid point.

That's good to know. The payoff time for a Minor upgrade is 26 turns, which is comparable to the investment value. I'd certainly make that trade if I wanted to put Combat Commands there.

One thing that's possible is that the 960RP cost of a Major world could be seen as the total cost from "Other", so the cost of a Minor -> Major upgrade would be 384RP, which has a payoff time of 24 turns - much more reasonable.

ScrapYardArmory · « **Reply #24 on:** 29 January 2016, 09:07:50 »

There was a big change to the Mercenary Retention roll. Previously, an unmodified roll of 2 would cause ALL mercenary forces of a faction to abandon their employer. That is a 1/36 chance (2.78%) every turn!

They added another roll. So after rolling snake eyes, you roll 1D6. If the second roll is a 1, then all the Mercs say goodbye.

Doing the math for these two independent rolls, we now have a 0.46% chance of total Merc abandonment each turn which seems a lot more reasonable of a risk.

epic · « **Reply #25 on:** 29 January 2016, 11:33:29 »

Quote from: Vandervecken on 29 January 2016, 00:46:40

That's good to know. The payoff time for a Minor upgrade is 26 turns, which is comparable to the investment value. I'd certainly make that trade if I wanted to put Combat Commands there.

One thing that's possible is that the 960RP cost of a Major world could be seen as the total cost from "Other", so the cost of a Minor -> Major upgrade would be 384RP, which has a payoff time of 24 turns - much more reasonable.

I've been struggling with the upgrade problem (and lack of usefulness compared to interest rates), especially as I was hoping that there would be a return to having supply depots (which there wasn't).

We're going to try a house rule or two to prompt some industrialization (especially for the Cappies)

ScrapYardArmory · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 January 2016, 12:50:05 »

Quote from: epic on 29 January 2016, 11:33:29

I've been struggling with the upgrade problem (and lack of usefulness compared to interest rates), especially as I was hoping that there would be a return to having supply depots (which there wasn't).

We're going to try a house rule or two to prompt some industrialization (especially for the Cappies)

This quote from Alexander Knight...

Quote from: Alexander Knight on 28 January 2016, 15:50:31

Well, how many worlds in the canon history do you see get upgraded aside from the 3050 boomlet in factories?

... seems to suggest to me that there may have been motivation to not incentive mass industrialization as a strategy.

That said, there are benefits to upgrading worlds. More options for placing new Combat Commands and better garrisons.

Cubby · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 January 2016, 12:51:55 »

OCD guy in me has to wonder: did we ever find out whether the spine will continue the picture built by the other core books? I haven't held a print Beta book personally, but I think I saw a photo where it had a standard spine, similar to Alpha Strike.

ColBosch · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 January 2016, 13:15:00 »

Quote from: Cubby on 29 January 2016, 12:51:55

OCD guy in me has to wonder: did we ever find out whether the spine will continue the picture built by the other core books? I haven't held a print Beta book personally, but I think I saw a photo where it had a standard spine, similar to Alpha Strike.

The Beta had a plain spine, but the final, hardback version will finish the picture.

Vandervecken · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 January 2016, 13:51:13 »

Quote from: ScrapYardArmory on 29 January 2016, 12:50:05

This quote from Alexander Knight...

... seems to suggest to me that there may have been motivation to not incentive mass industrialization as a strategy.

That said, there are benefits to upgrading worlds. More options for placing new Combat Commands and better garrisons.

Edited for clarity:
By weakening the value of industrialization, you haven't really prevented mass industrialization as a strategy. The reason for that is that mass industrialization is not the point. The point is the strategy of RP investment. Investing RP in factories is just one way of investing RP. The best way of investing RP is already a 5% return, so weakening industrialization doesn't actually lower the rate of return on RP. Weakening industrialization accomplishes nothing. Banking RP is still viable, and the game says the basic interest rate for banking RP is 5%. It offers an alternative savings vehicle (Minor -> Major Industrialization) that provides 1.7%. No-one will use that alternative investment vehicle, because its returns are poor. It might as well not exist.
Improving the return of this investment vehicle will make mass industrialization more viable, but as long as you keep it in the ballpark of 5% interest, you won't see it taking off suddenly.

If you're worried about mass industrialization as a tactic in ISW, what you should really be asking is whether the 5% interest rate on unspent RP is too high. Will we see people banking vast pools of unspent RP in some nebulous carried-over balance?